The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:14 pm

Title: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:14 pm
Quote from: Auriga
I haven't yet gotten a satisfying explanation for the metaphysics of sorcery, but then again, I didn't really pay super-close attention to the sorcery parts in the books, so I might have missed a lot. Could someone better explain it to me?

Bakker seems to have taken Tolkien's concept of "magic is re-singing the Creation" (but inverted it, since the Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery leaves an unnatural stain on Creation). But it's never really explained how the Nonmen and humans learned how to warp existence in the first place. Did some God teach them to? But if that was the case, sorcery wouldn't be a crime against nature and leave an ugly mark. Or is the Mark caused by the incompleteness of humans trying to play God by using magic? I'm frankly a bit confused.

The article about sorcery on the PON wiki is shitty - it starts with "words are the tools by which sorcery is implemented", without ever describing what sorcery actually is.

So, could someone clear things up and better explain the workings of sorcery in Bakker-world?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:20 pm
Quote from: Madness
As much as I'm lurking here and Westeros, I'm also trying to do some reading week reading - I have limited willpower today.

There are threads in The Unholy Consult, Sorcery[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/sorcery-t1222441.html), and in Misc. Chatter, Aporetic sorcery (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/aporetic-sorcery-t1222907.html) and I have a sneaking suspicion Curethan started one somewhere called "Sorcery." with the period.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:30 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote
Did some God teach them to? But if that was the case, sorcery wouldn't be a crime against nature and leave an ugly mark.
It's implied that the earliest human Sorcerers were the Shamans. Since they were Prophets as well as Sorcerers, they (and their magic) quite possibly had no Mark. They also, presumably, were not considered damned.

We've never been provided with any information on how the Nonmen first learned Sorcery. However, it seems like they never had any concept of Sorcerers being damned just for using magic.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:37 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm interested in how the Judging Eye, seeing with the Gods eyes, is related to speaking with the Gods voice or recollecting the Gods passion.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:48 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Shaeönanra's magic in "The False Sun" also weirded me out, since it doesn't seem consistent with the rules of sorcery in Eärwa.

How does one create an "object that occupies no point in space", and how does such an object even physically exist at all? It must physically exist (it's not described as an empty point or a black hole), in order to breach the barriers around Golgotterath, but...gah, it confuses the hell out of me.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:51 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Just think about it as basic fourth grade math.

A point, X
A point, Y
A point, Z

A line, XY
A line, XZ
A line, YZ

A plane, XYZ

When doing basic geometry, how do your concepts exist at all?  If you don't write them down on paper your point has no physical existence.  Yet you can still think of a point, X. or a line, XY.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:32:57 pm
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Auriga
Shaeönanra's magic in "The False Sun" also weirded me out, since it doesn't seem consistent with the rules of sorcery in Eärwa.

How does one create an "object that occupies no point in space", and how does such an object even physically exist at all? It must physically exist (it's not described as an empty point or a black hole), in order to breach the barriers around Golgotterath, but...gah, it confuses the hell out of me.

Perhaps such objects utilize dimensions that are not experienced (or are imperceptible, a la string theory) in the Earwan universe.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:01 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Personally I find either of the two above explanations unhelpful.

For lockesnow's, that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because it exists in your mind doesn't mean it is manifest. The manifestation of a point that occupies no space wouldn't interact with the world. Even things like "point particles" in physics, a basic concept used to describe introductory physics, is just a theoretical/mathematical construct. It doesn't really exist, but it makes things a whole lot simpler.
Or a dirac delta, a curve with infinite height and an integral value = 1, is a close approximation of something like the "point that occupies no space" but again its a mathematical construct to simplify problems such that they can be solved without unnecessarily difficult math. Though useful and fair at approximating behaviors of certain ideal systems, such a thing isn't real. There is no such thing as a perfect valve.

Actually, that is a really good example of what the above mentioned "point" would end up looking like. The tool would be infinitely long and come to an infinitely sharp point that took up no space at the tip. But as infinity is a rather difficult place to get to, a tool made like that would be decidedly unwieldy :P


And Meyna's, I guess I just don't believe that Shae solved string theory and was applying it. Rape aliens and immortality and magic yes, solved string theory... nah.



Pretty much by definition, it doesn't exist if it doesn't occupy a point in space. Not to be confused with not having mass, or volume, like sound and light, and neutrinos can't be "captured" since they just float through shit whenever they want. Those things still occupy a point in space.

Though, another thought just came to me, Shae's key to the glamor could have been akin to some extremely focused beam of magic or some such idea. Like a laser, but with magic. The glamor is magical, so it would make sense if something magical broke it. Could have been more like finding its resonance frequency and emitting a "magic wave" that just amplified it and... boom, almighty glamor shakes itself apart.......
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:07 pm
Quote from: Madness
Somewhere on Westeros there is some quality discussion and coherent solutions with persons more skilled in teh maths than I ;). Unfortunately, its not The False Sun thread.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:12 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
My understanding of math stops at practical application... i.e engineering. I guess you could say I'm using the analogies to real world idea to try and explain something far more abstract :P. It seems I cannot ever wield the gnosis, I cannot make the cognitive leaps on my own. I... have failed.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:17 pm
Quote from: Madness
Hahaha... forever an Anagogic sorcerer!

Lest you can be Cishaurim?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:22 pm
Quote from: Meyna
I didn't mean to suggest that sting theory is in effect in Earwa; I just meant that Earwa's "reality as it really is" could include auxiliary dimensions. It is quite a reach, though :lol:

Also, Anagogic sorcery isn't so bad. At least you have the Daimos!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:27 pm
v
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: lockesnow
Just think about it as basic fourth grade math.

When doing basic geometry, how do your concepts exist at all?  If you don't write them down on paper your point has no physical existence.  Yet you can still think of a point, X. or a line, XY.

This doesn't even make any sense.

If the concept only exists in your mind, then it doesn't exist in the physical world. The barriers around the Ark are physical, and Shaeönanra obviously used a physical spell to destroy them.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:33 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I think the westeros conclusion was that the math-thesis point of Shaeonanra disproved the mathematics that established the space-filling-curve of the Architect.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:37 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Meyna
Also, Anagogic sorcery isn't so bad. At least you have the Daimos!

The Daimos is a pretty good bonus, and it's odd that more sorcerers aren't using it. Sorcerers are already people with nothing to lose. Sure, using the Daimos does condemn you to be tortured in the afterlife by the demons you've summoned into the living world, but seeing as you're already damned by using any sorcery, being double-damned shouldn't be too much of a deterrent. It's a bit like giving someone the death penalty twice.

I guess there are degrees of damnation in the afterlife of Bakkerverse - you could burn in hellfire for eternity, or you could burn in hellfire for eternity while simultaneously being raped forever by Zioz and friends.

I'm sorta looking forward to an epic Super-Daimos™ moment, where Kellhus and all the Scarlet Spires combine their Daimotic powers to draw out Yatwer into the physical realm and send her against the Consult. That would be a fun read.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:43 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Oh yeah the space-filling-curve stuff.

A curve that fills space? Nonsense. Thats either just a solid sphere, or a melon wedge. Either way, a simple magical knife should do the trick, maybe a ... subtle knife? As I recall the wielder of the knife before that idiot kid was given it was an old man.... just shae giving away his knife since he was feeling charitable. Wait, damn, never mind, Shae has all his fingers.

I think its mumbo jumbo magic to sound cool, never really meant to be scrutinized. Vague enough to sound cool, but with juuuust enough description to be plausible. Under the microscope it just seems silly.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:48 pm
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Meyna
Also, Anagogic sorcery isn't so bad. At least you have the Daimos!

The Daimos is a pretty good bonus, and it's odd that more sorcerers aren't using it. Sorcerers are already people with nothing to lose. Sure, using the Daimos does condemn you to be tortured in the afterlife by the demons you've summoned into the living world, but seeing as you're already damned by using any sorcery, being double-damned shouldn't be too much of a deterrent. It's a bit like giving someone the death penalty twice.

I guess it's discouraged because it's so dangerous. Demons seem like the unpredictable type.

Quote from: Auriga
I guess there are degrees of damnation in the afterlife of Bakkerverse - you could burn in hellfire for eternity, or you could burn in hellfire for eternity while simultaneously being raped forever by Zioz and friends.

We'll have to reference Ajencis' Inferno for that one.

Quote from: Auriga
I'm sorta looking forward to an epic Super-Daimos™ moment, where Kellhus and all the Scarlet Spires combine their Daimotic powers to draw out Yatwer into the physical realm and send her against the Consult. That would be a fun read.

Yes, perhaps a sufficiently adept user of the Daimos can summon the Gods themselves!

+1 for Super-Daimos™ :lol:
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:33:54 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Meyna
I guess it's discouraged because it's so dangerous. Demons seem like the unpredictable type.

Maybe. Although the whole point of the Daimos is to enslave the demon to whoever is summoning it. From what we've read, the experience for the demon is much like a a human's experience of hell (and there's only way for the demon to get out of this - to follow the exact orders of its summoner).

It probably has backfired on people before. There's rumors about Kellhus being abducted while practicing Daimos and replaced by a demon, and all that.

Quote
We'll have to reference Ajencis' Inferno for that one.

Ajencis always knows best.

Quote
+1 for Super-Daimos™ :lol:

Super-Daimos™ isn't that big of a stretch, seeing as almost all the sorcery looks just like the Dragonball Z cartoons I watched as a kid.

A tip: Super-Daimos™ is a strong attack, but for extra power, it's best paired with Gnostic sorcery, like the ultra-powerful NONMAN HEXADECAGON SUPER-THEOREM™ and that devastatingly penetrating spell PHALLUS POLYGONUS™.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:00 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lmao. +1 Auriga & Meyna.

There's this hypothesis, I believe Triskele spawned on Westeros, that Kellhus killed those two Ciphrang in specific and kept their heads to free Iyokus from the remaining Daimotic Damnation of the Holy War.

I personally see the Scarlet Spires as a Daimotic School at this point. They literally have no other purpose. Look what happened to the Vokalati when they turned on Saccarees. The Anagogic Schools are the pawns of Schoolman when they finally fight the Mangaecca and Erratic Quya.

Kellhus killed some Ciphrang in his travels to convince Iyokus that he'd free his School after. How else would Iyokus have earned the nickname of Blind Necromancer.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:05 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
It occurs to me that the Daimos, with its focus on actively engaging with the agencies of the Outside (rather than desperately trying to avoid their notice), is perhaps that aspect of the Anagogis closest to its Shamanistic roots...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:10 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol, I want to see more folkloric sorcery. Harnessing the agency of the trees (I wonder if this related to Agencies)...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:14 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I can agree to that. Its kind of a mystery still, would be nice to see it filled out... and those trees are creepy as hell.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:18 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Trees are certainly symbolic of something.

Onkis: hope, aspiration, (ambition?), (compassion?), the Singer in the Dark, the Prophetess who sees the movements of Men's souls... the Goddess who represents the Darkness That Comes Before?

Siol: the Mansion whose king's ambition set this whole sorry tale in motion (the Darkness of history that Comes Before the events of the books).

The Mop: a forest that could conceal nations in its Darkness (and the ruins of fallen civilizations).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:23 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm hazarding Dead Trees are directly tied to the No-God or Dunyain...

The Copper Tree of Siol and Onkis always led me for a loop though.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:28 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
And the inchoroi/consult looked to the mop to try and find the nation of the Dunyain, rather than reversing the path Kellhus took or checking up on Atraithau.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:32 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
The Copper Tree of Siol and Onkis always led me for a loop though.
I think what links them are the concept of ambition (IIRC, Onkis is said to tempt men to always try to grasp more than they can hold - as Cu'jara Cinmoi did in conquering Viri) and the way in which our present choices are constrained by history (i.e. they seem to spread out freely like the branches of a tree, but are in fact held within strict bounds by where the tree first rooted - by what has come before us).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:37 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
There's also the idea that the World Tree actually creates the Ground by spreading out its roots through primordial Earth/Chaos, just as the laws, traditions, philosophies and ideologies of a group expand outward to create a society (under whose spreading boughs we seek shelter from the storm) once the group has defined the Centre/Root/Axle/Idea-Seed of their World.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 14, 2013, 10:34:43 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'll ante you up one from the man himself :). Apologies, if I've read LTG a couple times. Spoiler - though, its an "inapplicable" passage in the narrative. Though oddly it may be the most important passage for metaphor ;).

(click to show/hide)
Title: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 09:58:59 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I have often wondered about the slow reveal of sorcery throughout the series. In TDTCB there was almost none worth mentioning, except that pittance of a mage that assailed Kellhus when he was first coming to the three seas. Each book after, sorcery is revealed more and more to us. Each book shows that it has more power, unimaginably so, than in the previous book. From our first encounter of it, to the epic fight with the dragon, sorcery has grown and changed.

The questions I have:
 
How long will this trend continue?
 Hopefully each successive book continues along this trend, transforming sorcery into the kind of world cracking thunder that I have been hoping for.

And why?
 Does Bakker do this on purpose, like with most things, revealing it slowly and with purposeful vagness. Or has this happened because Bakker himself was unsure of what he wanted it to be, its limitations, and its relevance?

What does anyone else think?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 09:59:09 pm
Quote from: themerchant
I think the "guy" Kellhus meets is more than a pittance of a mage.

I think Sorcery was pretty well established as bad ass as early as the library scene in TWP. It was then just a question of scale. In what ways would you say it changed? Akka always uses that concusion cant and the compass i think throughout the books.

i think you'll get your hope though with regards to world cracking thunder, I want to know what the things are that Kellhus has when he meets the non-men and also considering what he was doing when he rescued the army of the souths mage contingent he is capable of some crazy stuff.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 09:59:20 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I guess not so much changed as evolved. Sure the library scene was sweet, but compared to the sorcery battles later on, it was nothing all that special. An exploded library and some dragon heads, compared to the battles in Shimeh? Not even a fair comparison. Then you look at that battle, and to Cleric in Cil-Aujas, again not even close, even when you look at Kel's metagnostic stuff. Then Cil compared to the dragon, or the battles of the Ordeal, again to me its a hugely different thing.

Why pretend like Kel could get away from a Quya mage in the first chapter, and then make the Quya out to be some kind of all powerful beings.

So yeah, not really changed, its always been called amazing, but each book the mages get exceptionally more powerful.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
Quote from: Madness
Bakker most certainly does it on purpose.

TDTCB - Kellhus' encounter with Mekeritrig, Inrau fighting the Skin-Spies, Battle of Kiyuth, Parlay with Skauras and Xerius via Moenghus the Elder
TWP - Cant of Calling (first sight of the Mandate Gnosis), Bar of Heaven, Psuhkari at the Battle of Mengedda, Wathi Doll, Soretic Library (Anagogic vs. Gnosis), Soretic Library (Daimos), Siege of Caraskand (Psuhke vs. Anagogis)

Then TTT, the first real battle we see of Sorcery from Schoolmen's perspectives - Bakker did want to call TTT When Sorcerers Sing - the Battle of Shimeh, Anagogic vs. Psuhke, Gnosis vs. Daimos again, Gnosis vs. Anagogis again.

Then finally we see some raging Gnosis and Quyan Gnosis in TJE but really its a pittance compared to the Battles in WLW when the Schools of the Great Ordeal are unleashed.

I'd say in the Unholy Consult shit is gonna hit the fan. I wouldn't doubt if we finally see the explosive Gnosis vs. Gnosis, which is clearly the only contender for where this is going to go - also Metagnosis vs. ? the Consult has come up with. I'm counting on seeing some Aporetic Sorcery going down and probably a more thorough understanding of the Psuhke.

However, that really, really depends on whether or not the Consult will contest Dagliash themselves, or simply let their minions do it.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 09:59:42 pm
Quote from: Jorge
I loved that he took his time showing us how unbelievably powerful Achamian was.

For most of TDTCB, he's pitiful. And when you finally realize he really can boil people from the inside just by thinking it... the character transforms.

The sheer magnitude of his abilities combined with the reluctance to ever use them, shows us the true heart of a Skeptic. A believer-skeptic. Who no longer knows what to believe.

Always reminds me of the best thing Tolkien ever wrote:
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:00:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
Layers of Revelation, man.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:00:22 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
The Chorae Hoard is how Sakarpus managed to survive the First Apocalypse. The No-God circumvented it, saving his limited sorcerous resources to overcome the South.

One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
Good questions, all. Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

Since the metaphysics of sorcery actually plays a significant role in TTT, it would probably be better to postpone a more in depth discussion until then.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:00:33 pm
Quote from: coobek
I cannot wait for Apropos to be revealed. I wonder if it will be Mimara who is the one.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:00:43 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: coobek
I cannot wait for Apropos to be revealed. I wonder if it will be Mimara who is the one.

With her initial extreme interest in magic, combined with their proximity to the Nonmen who are perhaps the only ones left who remember.... And what a wonderful way to get back at the world that wronger her by destroying its savior? Fits nicely.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:00:52 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:01:01 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
'Aporos' means, literally, 'non-passage' (i.e. 'impasse'). The argument that encounters it passes no further.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:01:11 pm
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.

You got me there. My explanation = English is not my mother tongue.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:01:21 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Another relevant and interesting quote from the Other Place (emphasis mine):

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos. Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the Mark.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:01:37 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Curethan
Sorry to nit-pick, coobek, but aporetical (a. Doubting; skeptical.) has a quite different meaning from apropos (adj. Being at once opportune and to the point.)

Apologies.

You got me there. My explanation = English is not my mother tongue.

I know mate, sorry.  Just got hit by the dissonance there.
And hey, now you know ;)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:01:46 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lol. You all impress me everyday.

+1 Duskweaver. So... Salting isn't a reflection of Faith or the Outside but of the sorcery of the Aporos.

Does that suggest an additional attribute of Sorcerer's Salt? (I mean, we've gone over it a couple times in the past, certainly in my personal life, but mundane value of salt is huge historically!) Yet there's another quote in the Cishaurim thread that suggests Cishaurim aren't affected in the same way (I see, some of you have weighed in there already :)).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:02:09 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
Does that suggest an additional attribute of Sorcerer's Salt? (I mean, we've gone over it a couple times in the past, certainly in my personal life, but mundane value of salt is huge historically!)
I've always thought that dead-sorcerer-salt is just plain ordinary halite. That passage that gets trotted out as evidence of something more (the bit about some kid making his fortune from harvesting a salted sorcerer after a battle in one of the PoN books) never seemed at all convincing to me. 150-odd pounds of ordinary NaCl (I'm assuming the transformation more-or-less preserves the sorcerer's original mass) would be worth a heck of a lot (certainly enough to make somebody's fortune) in any comparable historic period in our world.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:02:22 pm
Quote from: Madness
+1 Duskweaver. But... I'd still hazard that there's a purposeful reason for that scene.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:02:35 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
+1 Duskweaver. But... I'd still hazard that there's a purposeful reason for that scene.

It has to have meaning, doesn't it? Or another red haring.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:02:42 pm
Quote from: Madness
Either or. I want the intention. Aurang, a boy child, a Salted Sorcerer (which as Duskweaver and I highlighted is a fortune in any comparable time period) - hell, I'm almost out to make my riches in Earwa hunting Schoolmen. Bam! Fan fic idea... though that character gets to die real fast. Lmao.

Anyhow, the scene reeks of something other than Aurang simply being a perverted bird fuck, neh?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:02:52 pm
Quote from: Ciogli
Madness do you have the old thread of White Lord asking questions? I remember I had that particular thread on favorites so I could read the answers Bakker gave.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: What Came Before on May 28, 2013, 10:03:00 pm
Quote from: Madness
A few questions...[/u] (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/543)

Lol, I already had this posted in the Introduction thread where aengelas first posted the announcement as the one thread everyone exploring the old forums should read.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Borque on November 14, 2013, 10:11:35 am
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.
Title: Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 14, 2013, 10:30:30 am
I gave up on the Westeros mega-threads a while ago because of that, Francis.  Some subjects keep getting repeated, others disappear into some kind of thread archive hell and it all happens quite quickly; I don't have time to read them every day anymore.

You have inspired me to ramble about sorcery though, please excuse the lengthy post.

You are right, souls are clearly tied into all forms of sorcery.  Your example is a food one for the psuhke, evidence for the connection with the gnosis exists clearly in the case of the skin-spy-with-a-soul.

Titirga provides a strong hint that any of the few could master the psukhe and/or the gnosis.

If we start with the few as undifferentiated potential sorcerers, their uniting feature is the ability to perceive the onta.

The way that is described indicates it is akin to being able to see into a further visual spectrum.  In this case, the metaphysical ontology of objective reality (how things exist rather than how they impose on you subjectively).

TJE takes it a step further and reveals layers of experience, an 'expertiential' perspective that radiates from all souls - an impression of the entirety of their existence rather than their current state.

I feel that perhaps the cishaurim are somewhere in-between these two layers of perception.  By removing the subjective layer completely they focus on how things 'are' rather than how they appear.  e.g. Meppa sees the ontological reality of Psatma; Moenghus shines in the third sight because he exists so completely in the now that he appears much more than his physical appearance (if that makes sense)/

In regards to the Mark, I have a hypothesis for that too.  (Of course,  ::) )

Starting from the fact that sorcery is the means of changing Earwa's physical reality, we note that the gnosis and anagogic magic both leave the Mark.  This is a stain on the metaphysical ontology, the ontological state of being of objects changed is fundamentally changed as a side effect of the changes they affect in the mundane.

At the other extreme are the changes in the mundane that the gods work; Psatma, the white-luck etc.  These leave no mark.  Witness Sorweel's 'mask' that decieves the gnostic Serwe, Eskeles (and possibly Khellus).  Likewise Malowebi sees Psatma as she appears... but Meppa is not decieved.

So not only are the Cish able to detect the sorcery (refer Akka walking the shadow way) they can also see the truth of whatever sorcery the gods wield.

Now if consider what we know of how the various sorcerous disciplines work.

Gnostic:  Uses mathematical abstractions (primarily geometry in the example of war cants) underpinned by two interpretations of how things must change - in the mundane ontology via the sorcerer's native tongue and from the 'objective' perspective of the Onta rendered in a dead tongue.  Leaves lasting changes on the Onta and the mundane. 

Aporetic:  seems to be an extension of the gnosis based on obscure logical abstractions.  It preserves and undoes the changes to the Onta.  In the case of souls that have 'caused' said changes to metaphysical reality their existence is negated.  There are clear examples of sorcerers who are deeply marked being more vulnerable to greater effect; notr that chorae kill rather than salt Cish.

Anagogic:  Uses linguistic anologies in much the same way as the gnosis but lacks the precision and power, which seems logical.

Psukhe:  Changes mundane states of being without apparently affecting the Onta.  The cish appear to use a version of analogies like Anagogic mages.   The BIG difference is very likely that they use only one inutteral.  They describe the metaphysical changes they want to affect without needing their subjective view of the mundane, thus it is transmuted into physical reality 'perfectly'.  There is almost no dissonance and therefore no discernable mark.  However, as noted under Aporetic - chorae still kill them, I guess logic always wins.

Bringing this rambling post back on topic - I said earlier that I suspect the Logos is a very subtle version of sorcery.  It's functional dependencies seem to reflect the characteristics of the Judging Eye, minus the judgement.  A deep understanding into who people really are.
E.g. Mimara's understanding of Galian's past is very similar to the insights into TDCTB that Khellus uses to fuel his manipulations.  The only difference is how they use their perceptions.

The common types of sorcery all focus on mastering the mundane world through the metaphysical.  The dunyain are working from the other direction.

I have not yet broached the Tekne, here we have another approach to mastering the metaphysical. 
Where the dunyain have divorced all morality and emotion from their approach in order to master that which is (similar to the way the Cish blind themselves, I feel); the consult seek to replace and replicate their own immoral perspective.

In summation, the conduit between the mundane and the Onta are ensouled beings.  There is no doubt that Kellhus has the tools and the potential  to take apart and use any of the compatible techniques applied in any of the forms of sorcery.  It's not just a question of using a third inutteral to unit two different physical places with one metaphysical reality, we should also consider his potential to wield magic with one inutteral to new effect, combining the Logos with the Tekne etc etc.

ps. sorry if this post is rambling or nonsensical in parts - 4 hours sleep, 10 hours working in a fridge and the Lord's Lettuce have had their way with me.
Title: Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 14, 2013, 10:33:09 am
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

Not the difference in chorae effects on Akka between TDTCB and TJE.  In both books a chorae is held in his face, in TDCTB it just freaks him out but in TJE he starts to salt. 
Title: Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Dûnyain novice on November 14, 2013, 12:31:30 pm
Might be that the Mark doesn't reflect the power of the sorcerer as much as how long and much he has been practicing sorcery.

I always understood that the onta grows in relation to how much you "modify" reality using sorcery. In the case of Quya it would make sense since the older they are the more they used sorcery ( and we know they're both powerful and well practiced thanks to all the wars they fought )
When Akka begins teaching Kellhus the Gnosis he is worried that the first thing Kellhus will gain will be the weakness to Chorae since even the smallest cants damn the user. This would suggest a direct and confirmed relation between USE of sorcery and damnation/mark.
We can't know for sure if time enlarges the onta, because the guys with the strongest marks we've seen so far had both power and time.

We must take a look at the relationship between "use of sorcery" and "power" though...

Let's give for granted ( for speculation's sake ) that use of sorcery enlarges the mark.

This would mean that using a Surillic Point gives you let's say..."10 Mark points"
What happens when you use a Bar of Heaven? You'd get maybe "100 Mark points" right?
 
Unless! The Gods don't care if you use small or fancy moves, you still get damnation points!
So you can use ten Surillic Points or spam some crazy Meta-Gnostic illumination cants, you still get 1 damnation point every time whatever you do.
This way the Mark would be useless to gauge the sorcerer's power.
But then again Akka wouldn't be so scared of Nil'Giccas' mark. The way he talks about it is like he knows he's extremely powerful since his mark is so deep.
He knows for sure that he's experienced, but how does he know if he's powerful?
He could think "yeah Cleric has a nice 20.000 points mark but maybe he's been using Surillic Points and cooking Cants for the last 2000 years!"
It looks more like Akka's thinking "To get that kind of mark he must have used some nice moves over who knows how many years, he knows his sorcery, I must be careful"
At least that's how I read it XD


Not the difference in chorae effects on Akka between TDTCB and TJE.  In both books a chorae is held in his face, in TDCTB it just freaks him out but in TJE he starts to salt. 

I remember that in TTT when Cnaiur wakes up Akka with the Chorae he does feel the tingles of salting.
But it's not enough to prove that "time= deeper mark" I fear.

If time by itself affected the mark it would mean that
Akka's salting at the end of TTT ---->20 years later he salts more in TJE and WLW. But we can't really judge it. Maybe Kosoter holds the Chorae closer than Cnaiur did? ( non talking about the sranc punch incidend because everybody would salt from that) Or maybe Bakker simply wanted to emphasize the salting in the Kosoter scene...

If on the other hand "use/power mean bigger mark= aggravated salting" Akka is still useless as an example. I dont' think in those 20 years he spent alone he had much chance to spam warcants or become more powerful.

I stand behind the "Use of high level cants = greater deepening of the mark" + the time thing of course. I mean, both the level of cants and the usage influence the mark, with the attention focused on the power of sorceries. The more deeply you modify the world, deeper the mark gets.

If power didn't affect the mark then what would happen if Kellhus met some hostile Quya?
Surely the Nonman would have used sorcery for longer and would have a deeper mark.
Would he go "Oh yeah this guy has a nice mark but mine is deep-" Before getting unavoidibly  wrecked by the Meta-Gnosis?


 
Title: Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Borque on November 14, 2013, 12:52:50 pm
It looks more like Akka's thinking "To get that kind of mark he must have used some nice moves over who knows how many years, he knows his sorcery, I must be careful"
At least that's how I read it XD
That's how I read it too. When he first met Cleric, it isn't completely obvious to him from the start that it's a Nonman, though, so the Mark can't be that different to a human sorcerer's.

Having thought about it, I think it's very much like you say. I see the Mark as a kind of reflection of the sum of all modifications the sorcerer has made to the Onta. Every time you alter the Onta, it alters you. If you alter it profoundly or many times, you get more Mark.

Kellhus, as usual, is more about subtlety. I see the second inutteral as giving him more precision in getting exactly what he wants from the Onta, not necessarily only raw power. If this is so, his Mark could very well be less pronounced than other sorcerers'.
Title: Re: Re: Kellhus' Limits
Post by: Dûnyain novice on November 14, 2013, 01:12:22 pm
Kelps, as usual, is more about subtlety. I see the second inutteral as giving him more precision in getting exactly what he wants from the Onta, not necessarily only raw power. If this is so, his Mark could very well be less pronounced than other sorcerers'.

Ah! You're right!
It could work like this:

Cant:                             Effect:                                                 Mark points received

Utteral                           Fire                                                       20
1st inutteral                   Fire on that rock                                     20
2nd inutteral                  Fire specifically just around the rock        -10       

With a total of 10 instead of the 20 he would get using regular Gnosis.

Or the other way around when he needs power:


Cant:                             Effect:                                                                   Mark points

Utteral                           Gnosis devastating abstraction                                 100
1st inutteral                   on those unlucky sranc                                            100         
2nd inutteral                  Moar power! Meta-Gnosis cataclysimc abstraction!     +300           

With a total of 500 because of the bigger "power usage"

Sorry about the schematic thingy but I felt it conveyed the idea faster than 100 words XD


Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 14, 2013, 03:39:17 pm
Sorry everyone but I was compelled to move these. There are basically no comments in relation to Kellhus' limits in the posts. Cheers.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Garet Jax on November 14, 2013, 04:13:03 pm
Verse 18:9 "As death is the sum of all harms, so is murder the sum of all sins." (PON Wiki)

I still believe it is what you do with your magic that determines the depth of your mark, not necessarily how you cast your magic.

If you set fire to a rock you probably aren't earning very many "bruise points".

If you set fire to 2,000 heathens, you might be earning yourself some serious bonus "bruise points".

Having said that I can see how setting fire to 2,000 heathens without setting fire to any rocks or earth nearby vs scorching everything in the vicinity would warrant less of a change to your mark.

As always, I have a side question:  Can murdering a sorcerer (who are supposed to be damned) earn you less of a bruise or end up being some sort of a wash?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Borque on November 14, 2013, 05:35:33 pm
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

ETA2: Since the second option also involves murder of around 30-50 people, and I'm assuming murder gives Damnation point without affecting the Mark.

ETA3: If Mark and Damnation weren't counted separately, everyone of the Few would in effect have the Judging Eye.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Garet Jax on November 14, 2013, 06:22:29 pm
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

Interesting.  I have always thought that damnation and the mark went hand in hand.  At least as far as sorcerers are concerned.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Borque on November 14, 2013, 06:26:26 pm
Interesting.  I have always thought that damnation and the mark went hand in hand.  At least as far as sorcerers are concerned.
I edited my post a little while you wrote your response...

Well they would be correlated, since sorcery is a damnable offense. But sorcery plus murder seems to me more damnable than only sorcery, while murder in itself also gives damnation points.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 14, 2013, 10:49:06 pm
Quote from: TJE, p155
The Mark already blasts him, renders him ugly in the manner of things rent and abraded, as though his inner edges have been pinched and twisted, pinched and twisted, his very substance worried from the fabric of mundane things. But suddenly she sees more, the hue of judgement, as though blessing and condemnation have become a wash visible only in certain kinds of light. It hangs about him, bleeds from him, something palpable ... evil.

No. Not Evil. Damnation.

Mimara looking on Achamian with the Judging Eye.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 14, 2013, 11:12:29 pm
Bakker made a statement somewhere on 3c's (if I remember correctly) that Inrau died damned because of the fact that he used sorcery before attempting to fly.
If true, that is compelling evidence that using any sorcery crosses a line.  Damnation via sorcery does not involve compiling damnation points, it is on or off.
The Mark assuredly does not indicate damnation alone though, because it lingers on inanimate objects.

I differ only in that I feel the Mark results from the dissonance between the two inutterals.  Cish are altering the Onta and the mundane just as profoundly as other sorcerers.  The apparent difference, as I described above, is that they very likely do not use two inutterals because the focus only on the Onta. 

Fane developed the psukhe completely in the absence of knowledge of how anagogic and gnostic sorcery leverage changes to reality.  Note that both of those forms of sorcery use two inutterals, which makes sense as they pin two interpretations of meaning to two frames of perception.  By eliminating sight, Fane relied on one frame of perception (i.e. the onta) therefore one inutteral is enough to enforce sorcerous change.  As a side effect it eliminates 99% of the dissonance and also the visible Mark.

Using a third inutteral is only mentioned in the context of the cant of translocation, and this seems like an obvious method of referencing two physical places against the metaphysical reality of the sorcerer.  I believe its a question of leverage over power and that a third inutteral would serve no purpose in modifying most other cants.

This is not to suggest that Kellhus' deep understanding of metaphysics could not manifest in other applications of seemingly unrelated skills.
For example, he might teach Iyokus to shape his analogies using one inutteral and his feels like a cish and apply the psukhe's purity of meaning to the Daimos
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 15, 2013, 01:19:10 am
well remember, the mark is a shortened version of a longer cultural phrase, "the mark of the blood of the onta."

So that would imply the latter, how much and how long have you been practicing sorcery, the blood accumulates.   for the person who has harmed the onta, for the criminal, this is an inescapable weight, evidence of their guilt, a constant rebuke, a silent accusation... ;)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 15, 2013, 01:27:02 am
Quote from: TJE, p155
The Mark already blasts him, renders him ugly in the manner of things rent and abraded, as though his inner edges have been pinched and twisted, pinched and twisted, his very substance worried from the fabric of mundane things. But suddenly she sees more, the hue of judgement, as though blessing and condemnation have become a wash visible only in certain kinds of light. It hangs about him, bleeds from him, something palpable ... evil.

No. Not Evil. Damnation.

Mimara looking on Achamian with the Judging Eye.
This is the passage that absolutely makes me think that sorcerery and damnantion are not the same.
She clearly sees them differently, or at least I think so. The fact that schoolmen can see  the mark seems counter intuitive. Mimara is some kind of "holy" agent of some god and she sees true morality in people. Akka has killed/will kill many many people in cold blood. He is consumed by revenge and rage and care nothing for the people that get in his way. He is rightly damned without the use of sorcery, even though it was the sorcery that he used to kill people.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Dûnyain novice on November 15, 2013, 10:39:46 am
I think damnation points and Mark points are separate. Sorcery isn't the only way to be damned.

ETA: I believe that if you burn 7 tons of stone to cinders using the Fifth Quyan Whatnot, that could result in more Mark but fewer Damnation points than if you burn 3 tons of innocent people with the same Cant.

ETA2: Since the second option also involves murder of around 30-50 people, and I'm assuming murder gives Damnation point without affecting the Mark.

I totally agree with this theory. 



Fane developed the psukhe completely in the absence of knowledge of how anagogic and gnostic sorcery leverage changes to reality.  Note that both of those forms of sorcery use two inutterals, which makes sense as they pin two interpretations of meaning to two frames of perception.  By eliminating sight, Fane relied on one frame of perception (i.e. the onta) therefore one inutteral is enough to enforce sorcerous change.  As a side effect it eliminates 99% of the dissonance and also the visible Mark.

Using a third inutteral is only mentioned in the context of the cant of translocation, and this seems like an obvious method of referencing two physical places against the metaphysical reality of the sorcerer.  I believe its a question of leverage over power and that a third inutteral would serve no purpose in modifying most other cants.


From what I remember, during the scene where Akka teaches Kellhus, he explains that the Anagosis and Gnosis use 1 utteral string and 1 inutteral to better fix the meanings.
When Kellhus asks about adding a second inutteral Akka mentions this as the famed "Third Phase". Which would suggest that it's something kind of possible and not just a one-cant thing or a single incident.
Still, it's true that so far we know only one cant which actually uses a second inutteral! But that could very well be only because we see it in the last Kellhus POV.
Maybe in a future POV we'll see other MG Cants where it's specified that they all use 2 inutterals.

Also regarding the use of 2 inutterals in regular cants, from what I understand the second inutteral added by Kellhus helps him to obtain purer meanings. We know that in sorcery purer meanings usually equals stronger Cants so I recon Kellhus can theoretically turn any regular cant into a meta-gnostic one by adding a second inutteral or something close to this.

I like your theory about the Psukhe dissonance! Maybe they use 1 utteral and their emotions as "inutteral". This would explain why they're so powerful. Emotions would be more immediate and "pure" in meaning than another phrase.
 



Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 15, 2013, 11:19:59 am
Yes, I think you are quite correct.  Utteral / inutteral.  The basic idea remains the same though ;)  Please go back and edit my posts for me, hehe.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 15, 2013, 03:19:09 pm
Bakker made a statement somewhere on 3c's (if I remember correctly) that Inrau died damned because of the fact that he used sorcery before attempting to fly.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, March 2006
This question really morphed!

Yes, Inrau IS damned. And this is the basis of his conversion. There's always hope that the scriptures just overlooked some kind of loophole, or that by praying real hard...

Part of the problem is that we see Inrau primarily through Achamian, and if you think about it, Achamian tends not to go into the details of his damnation - or that of any of those he loves. For instance, why doesn't he ever wonder about Inrau's soul? This omission becomes more and more explicit the more implicated Achamian becomes in Kellhus's world. Think of TTT. I wanted this to be the one thing he cannot grasp without the protection of vague intellectual abstraction.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 15, 2013, 05:50:18 pm
From what I remember, during the scene where Akka teaches Kellhus, he explains that the Anagosis and Gnosis use 1 utteral string and 1 inutteral to better fix the meanings.
When Kellhus asks about adding a second inutteral Akka mentions this as the famed "Third Phase". Which would suggest that it's something kind of possible and not just a one-cant thing or a single incident.
Still, it's true that so far we know only one cant which actually uses a second inutteral! But that could very well be only because we see it in the last Kellhus POV.
Maybe in a future POV we'll see other MG Cants where it's specified that they all use 2 inutterals.

Also regarding the use of 2 inutterals in regular cants, from what I understand the second inutteral added by Kellhus helps him to obtain purer meanings. We know that in sorcery purer meanings usually equals stronger Cants so I recon Kellhus can theoretically turn any regular cant into a meta-gnostic one by adding a second inutteral or something close to this. 

Just to clarify, Akka actually tells Kellhus that it's impossible to use a a 2nd inutteral. He then recalls, in his mind, a Mandate/Quya fable that there once was a schoolman/quya (can't remember which) who was said to use 2 inutterals. Though it doesn't really make much difference, since we know that Kellhus would have just "read" the truth from his face anyway.

If the Gnosis is some kind of logic based geometric sorcery:
Consider that within a 3 dimensional plane , you can only define a point with 1 coordinate. i.e (x). This is a 1d "object".
I think this is, more or less, what the anagogic schools use. They are limited to defining 1d sorcerery. If they want to "make" something, they can only specify 1 thing at a time. For example, something's length, or somethings height, but not both. This makes their "meaning"(purity) unclear.

With 2 points, you may define 2 points. (x, y). With this, you can now make your meaning much more clear. You can define something's length and width, or its height and length.
This is where the Gnosis is. The Mandati, and others, use the innuteral to clarify what they want more accuratly.

With an additional innuteral (the Meta-Gnosis) you can more fully describe what you want.


As a crude example: An anagogic schoolman, a gnostic schoolman, and a meta-gnostic schoolman want to summon a red cube that is 10meters long per side.
The anagogic schoolman simply says: Summon cube! He gets a transparent cube thats 1 meter long.
The Gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, but thinks in his mind Red. He gets a red cube thats 20 meters long.
The meta-gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, thinks Red and 10meters. He gets a red cube that is 10 meters long.

Sorry for the extraordinarily lame example, but its easier for me to think about than simply "and innuteral makes it more pure, and a 2nd makes it more purer ".

I feel like I'm mostly just rambling now so I'll shutup.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 15, 2013, 07:56:08 pm
And a third makes it purerer ;)?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 15, 2013, 10:14:28 pm
Just to clarify, Akka actually tells Kellhus that it's impossible to use a a 2nd inutteral. He then recalls, in his mind, a Mandate/Quya fable that there once was a schoolman/quya (can't remember which) who was said to use 2 inutterals. Though it doesn't really make much difference, since we know that Kellhus would have just "read" the truth from his face anyway.

Yeah, he recalls the legend of Su'juroit (sp) the Nonman Witchking or something who had used the 2nd inutteral.

It's hilarious to think about how easily Kellhus must have seen through Akka's attempted deception.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 15, 2013, 11:03:28 pm
I don't think a third makes it purer.

There is a good case that the Cish do not even need an inutteral in a second (dead) language, and their meanings are the purest of all.

The second inutteral is only used for trans-location, that we have seen.  If the meaning was pure, Serwe wouldn't be worried about detection.  If anything, uniting three meanings into reality is going to leave a bigger, dirtier stain.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 16, 2013, 04:18:25 am
Trisk, that is actually what I was thinking when I posted that

Curethan, what brings you to that conclusion?
I find it hard to justify the Cish's strength within the bounds of anagogic/gnostic/meta-g resoning, since it is supposedly somthing else entirely. I fail to see why emotions make for pure meaning. Emotions are poorly understood, and how often are emotions pure? In my experience emotions tend to be muddled with conflict.
Though, to be fair, extreme emotion can be very pure... But still emotions rarely come in one color at a time.
I guess I could see how extreme emotion may be as pure (as powerful) as a gnostic schoolman, and certainly more powerful than the poor anagogics, but I can't imagine an emotion so pure and untainted by other thoughts/feeling/emotions that it would be the purest of all magic.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 16, 2013, 08:19:29 am
That's just it, Wilshire.  It's the fact that the Psukhe is untainted by leveraged meaning.

Fane had no sorcerous training.  He had a spiritual shift of perspective and learned to perceive the onta although at the same time.  There was no arduous learning of methods to impose change on the physical by leveraging the meanings of the soul against metaphysical. 

Why would he even try speaking one thing and thinking another?  As a priest he still would have believed sorcery a sin.  No, his approach must have been to speak directly to the metaphysical reality as he learned to apprehend it without ever realizing that it was sorcery. 

The clarity is not important here.  In the case of anagogic magic they are using analogy - an imprecise means of description if ever there was one yet still effective.  They conjure dragon heads to start the mundane burning.  But they use two meanings angled against each other.  They emit excess 'soul power' from their eyes and mouth.  Think about why that is - the utteral depends on the soul's perception of sight (watcher) and the world's perception of speech (watched).

The Cish favour water based metaphors, as befits their cultural heritage as the water-bearers.  But they only seem to use an inutteral.  We see their soul power come from their 'third eye' and we know their power is based on how they feel the onta.  It doesn't imply emotive capacity to me, rather empathy and intuition.

For the Cish, their belief forms the bounds of their power instead of abstracted understanding.  A belief comprised of intuitive understanding.  Although their power comes from the same source, the way they wield it is what is different. 

Hmmm, a clunky analogy.  Imagine that regular sorcerers use tools and blueprints to make a bowl from shaped materials whereas a Cish forms it from clay.  The gnostic mage might form a perfectly constructed bowl, but it will always carry the mark of how it was made.  The Cish can form something equally useful that looks like it just grew from the earth.

*edited for a better analogy and addendum.

Perhaps it is better to consider how a blind person would describe a table compared to how a poet or mathematician would describe it.  The blind person would be more concerned where it is and what it feels like when you touch it or bump into it.  The poet might tell you a story about tables or compare it to other things you are familiar with.  The mathematician might use geometry or dimensions to elimate confusion.

Also, Bakker is very interested in how our perceptions clutter our understanding.  In his imagined world, where things have a presence beyond the physical, doesn't it make sense that those dislocated from the percieved world would understand true reality better.

Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Dûnyain novice on November 16, 2013, 12:00:21 pm
If the Gnosis is some kind of logic based geometric sorcery:
Consider that within a 3 dimensional plane , you can only define a point with 1 coordinate. i.e (x). This is a 1d "object".
I think this is, more or less, what the anagogic schools use. They are limited to defining 1d sorcerery. If they want to "make" something, they can only specify 1 thing at a time. For example, something's length, or somethings height, but not both. This makes their "meaning"(purity) unclear.

With 2 points, you may define 2 points. (x, y). With this, you can now make your meaning much more clear. You can define something's length and width, or its height and length.
This is where the Gnosis is. The Mandati, and others, use the innuteral to clarify what they want more accuratly.

With an additional innuteral (the Meta-Gnosis) you can more fully describe what you want.


As a crude example: An anagogic schoolman, a gnostic schoolman, and a meta-gnostic schoolman want to summon a red cube that is 10meters long per side.
The anagogic schoolman simply says: Summon cube! He gets a transparent cube thats 1 meter long.
The Gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, but thinks in his mind Red. He gets a red cube thats 20 meters long.
The meta-gnostic schoolman says: Summon cube, thinks Red and 10meters. He gets a red cube that is 10 meters long.

Sorry for the extraordinarily lame example, but its easier for me to think about than simply "and innuteral makes it more pure, and a 2nd makes it more purer ".

I feel like I'm mostly just rambling now so I'll shutup.


The example is fine, I think we actually agree on the "further inutterals = better specified meanings" theory regarding the Meta-Gnosis, but you put it in a clear way whereas I was constantly repeating "pure" and "purer" without making myself clear XD So I failed with my own purity of meanings right there XD

Your theory about the Anagosis though doesn't seem "right" to me...
When you say "The Mandati, and others, use the innuteral to clarify what they want more accuratly." I assume you mean the other Schools ( let's leave the Psukhe out of the equation for now ) Including the Scarlet Spires which we know for sure employ Anagogic sorcery.
Still from what I understood you theorize that the Anagosis does not use inutterals, and this is the main reason for the difference in power.
This thought never occurred to me. From the passage when Akka is teaching Kellhus:

"He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, whichalways remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken."

And

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. "And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able tosteal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.""There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key."

Cit. The Thousandfold Thought by R.Scott Bakker

From this explanation I gathered that ALL "standard" sorcery ( and I mean the Schools) uses both utterals and inutterals.
And that the Gnosis is more powerful because it uses a more suitable language as well as a different phrasing of the meanings. ( plus the metaphysics part )

It's hilarious to think about how easily Kellhus must have seen through Akka's attempted deception.

Indeed XD He must have thought "Yeah, thanks for confirming my theory Akka"


The second inutteral is only used for trans-location, that we have seen.  If the meaning was pure, Serwe wouldn't be worried about detection.  If anything, uniting three meanings into reality is going to leave a bigger, dirtier stain.

When I said pure I didn't mean in a "holy" or "less blasphemous" way. What I meant was "more specific", "more detailed". Just as Wilshire explained.

I agree on the Meta-gnosis = bigger sorcery bruise though! If the bruise is associated with modifying the world with sorcery, it would make sense that using the MG and thus being able to modify the world even more deeply equals a bigger sorcery bruise.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 16, 2013, 12:37:08 pm
I'm thinking of how Bakker describes the purity of Cish cants.  Why would the metaphysical detail be less important than the mundane details like colour and size?

But ... we are on slightly different tangents, I think. 
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Borque on November 16, 2013, 02:31:55 pm
I think the "purity" of the Cishaurim work is a different sort of purity than the "purity of meaning" that I seem to recall is used somewhere to describe some Gnostic and or Quyan cants.

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Dûnyain novice on November 16, 2013, 03:45:45 pm
I think the "purity" of the Cishaurim work is a different sort of purity than the "purity of meaning" that I seem to recall is used somewhere to describe some Gnostic and or Quyan cants.

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

I agree with this.
In case of Anagogic or Gnostic sorcery the "purity of meaning" is strictly "semantical" or scientific if you want. It's the precision when describing concepts, with probably a hint of metaphysical understanding in it. It's just a tool to employ sorcery for whatever ends.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Garet Jax on November 16, 2013, 03:49:23 pm

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

I like the simile.  It reminds me of a song I like.

"Who knew a tongue could do so much harm, lying in ones mouth?  Dancing to music that wasn't really there." -Laura Nichol
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2013, 12:18:14 am
Quote
"He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, whichalways remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken."

And

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. "And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able tosteal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.""There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key."

Funny that from the exact same passage I read that the only reason the Anagogic schools do not have the gnosis or something like it is because they do not know of the inutterals.

There is a passage somewhere about the inception of the Anagogic schools. I believe it arose without the benefit of nonman tutelage. I believe that this means those schools never learned about the inutterals. They brute forced their way into the arcane arts and never figured out how to do it properly. Also, its said multiple times that the Anagogic schools could discover the gnosis on their own if they could make the right logical leaps. I think that means figuring out how to use the 2nd half of the cant.

Agree to disagree though, since we got the opposite conclusion from the exact same text :P.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 17, 2013, 01:02:24 am
"In all sorcery, the inutterals are key."

Seems fairly straightforward.  Can't be a key component if you don't use it.  And the follow on, for me, is that the inutteral component frames the sorcerer's metaphysical grasp.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2013, 01:09:16 am
Why would the Anagogic schools bother trying to simply "recite" the words they hear spoken if they knew that it would never help.

But if thats an actual quote, I guess your right.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 17, 2013, 01:16:48 am
That is the utteral component ;)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wic on November 18, 2013, 06:29:01 pm
On the issue of the second inutteral, from TTT p.380:
Quote
With three voices he sang, one utteral pitched to the world and two inutterals directed to the ground. What had been an ancient Cant of Calling became something far, far more...A Cant of Transposing.
So it's not about refining the purity (although surely that sort of thing is possible), but about creating a new meaning entirely.

I always think of the soul as possessing a sort of thin boundary between the Outside and the mundane, with utterals and inutterals acting as varying sorts of portals set on either side of the boundary. 
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 06:34:31 pm
That makes me wonder how the different schools use cants of calling. Seems strange that from what we know, all 3 schools need to know who and where the receiver is in order to communicate the dreams. If the anagogic, gnostic, and psuke are so dissimilar, why would they all need this same information?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 18, 2013, 08:23:46 pm
That makes me wonder how the different schools use cants of calling. Seems strange that from what we know, all 3 schools need to know who and where the receiver is in order to communicate the dreams. If the anagogic, gnostic, and psuke are so dissimilar, why would they all need this same information?

Read the whole quote, what is one becomes many, soul becomes place.  Here and there.  From where and to which.

Quote
Kellhus stepped back, focused his eyes on a point the size of a thumbnail held at arm’s length. What was one became many. What was soul became place.

Here.


Calling out from bones of things.

With three voices he sang, one utteral pitched to the world and two inutterals directed to the ground. What had been an ancient Cant of Calling became something far, far more…A Cant of Transposing.

Blue fractal lights mapped the air about him, cocooned him in brilliance. Through scribbling filaments he saw his father press himself upright, turn with his asps to the girded corridor. Anasûrimbor Moënghus … that he could look so pale in the light of his son!

Existence cringed before the whip of his voice. Space cracked. Here was pried into there. Beyond his father he saw Serwë, her blonde hair tied into a war-knot. He saw her leap out of the black …

Even as he toppled into one far greater.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:29:53 pm
Quote from: TTT Glossary, p528
Cants of Calling: ... The degree of similarity between Anagogic and Gnostic Cants of Calling has led many to suspect they hold the key to unraveling the Gnosis.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 08:34:14 pm
Quote from: TTT Glossary, p528
Cants of Calling: ... The degree of similarity between Anagogic and Gnostic Cants of Calling has led many to suspect they hold the key to unraveling the Gnosis.
:)

Locke that didn't help me out any sorry :P. Though I did notice 2 things unrelated:
1) Isn't that first line a combination of Kellhus' description of the probability trance, and his thoughts on the sunrise of the last day of "the logos is without beginning or end" scene?
2) The blue light was described as Fractal, which I missed before. What a wonderful mathematical invention:
Would look something like this, though in 3d: http://trickylittleimp.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fractal.jpg
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 18, 2013, 08:44:46 pm
tesseract, fold space, take your pick, his soul becomes place.  Rather than soul being identity, it becomes a geographic point.  He then just has to navigate--fold--his way to another geographic point.  By soul becoming place one becomes many his soul stops being the individual identity and becomes a part of the whole.  then his soul just has to re manifest at another known geographic point.

Tie it into his 1000 points of light description of souls earlier in the book.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:54:52 pm
Lol.

Quote from: TTT Glossary, p527
Cants of Calling: ... Though the metaphysics of these Cants is only loosely understood, all long-distance Cants of Calling seem to turn on the so-called Here Hypothesis. One can call only to slumbering souls (because they remain open to the Outside) and only to those residing somewhere the Caller has been. The idea is that the "Here" of the Caller can only reach a "There," or other location, that has been a "Here" sometime in the past.

But surely, you know this, Father ;)?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 09:00:24 pm
Ever read Hyperion? The 4th book spends much time describing a very similar phenomenon its now how I picture the trasposition of soul. Bakker's Outside being Simmons' Void Which Binds

Basically, the 'Outside' is everywhere at once. This MG cant lets you 'move' from one 'place' to the next without traversing the distance since you are going through the "spaceless" outside.

That was abstract and confusing. You explained very well, and certainly much better than me.

I was wondering about the cants of calling though, not the cant of Transposing.

Lol.

Quote from: TTT Glossary, p527
Cants of Calling: ... Though the metaphysics of these Cants is only loosely understood, all long-distance Cants of Calling seem to turn on the so-called Here Hypothesis. One can call only to slumbering souls (because they remain open to the Outside) and only to those residing somewhere the Caller has been. The idea is that the "Here" of the Caller can only reach a "There," or other location, that has been a "Here" sometime in the past.

But surely, you know this, Father ;)?
I just think it strange that all the schools are able to do this, and yet the gnosis is so much more powerful. Maybe the anagogic schools "calling" cants are like Skype with slow internet connection, where the gnosis calling is a full HD video feed without lag :). The only thing better than that would be actually being there talking... Oh...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 18, 2013, 10:48:24 pm
The relative power of the gnosis lies in its abilities to smash anagogic analogies using logic - but this is mainly in the context of war cants.  They simply have a better argumentative framework.

Psukhe seems to be in between, probably because the cish are always 'open to the outside'.

Malowebi has clearly superior cants of calling using artefacts - he doesn't need location.  Mallahet also displayed vastly superior cants of calling (compared to Akka) in TDTCB.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 19, 2013, 02:06:54 am
I'm very interested in Malowebi's Fetish-based Anagogis.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 19, 2013, 04:19:48 am
The relative power of the gnosis lies in its abilities to smash anagogic analogies using logic - but this is mainly in the context of war cants.  They simply have a better argumentative framework.

Psukhe seems to be in between, probably because the cish are always 'open to the outside'.
Makes sense
Malowebi has clearly superior cants of calling using artefacts - he doesn't need location.  Mallahet also displayed vastly superior cants of calling (compared to Akka) in TDTCB.
I'll give you Malowebi, disagree on Moenghus though.
He simply sent dreams to every person he could think of. It seems reasonable to me that most of the higher ups slept in the same chambers all the time. This explains why Kellhus didn't actually receive the dreams, since he was more of an inniciate and may not have been sleeping somewhere that Moe could have found.
We see Akka wonder through many dreams, he could have passed a short message to all of them before he made it to his goal. He simply chose to wait to speak with his former master before anyone else.
Vastly superior? Nah.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 19, 2013, 05:56:19 am
I am assuming that Curethan was talking about how Mallahet basically used sorcery to create Skyping between Skauras and Xerius. 

That would be another sweet scene for our artists in the other thread.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 19, 2013, 08:23:10 am
Yep, thx Trisk.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 19, 2013, 02:12:40 pm
Oh the whole floating head thing. IMO something else entirely, not really a cant of calling at all, but I can see why some would.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 20, 2013, 11:01:55 pm
He simply sent dreams to every person he could think of. It seems reasonable to me that most of the higher ups slept in the same chambers all the time. This explains why Kellhus didn't actually receive the dreams, since he was more of an inniciate and may not have been sleeping somewhere that Moe could have found.

Quote
Again the dreams had come.

Vast landscapes, histories, contests of faith and culture, all glimpsed in cataracts of detail. Horses skidding to earth. Fists clenching mud. Dead strewn on the shore of a warm sea. And as always, an ancient city, chalk dry in the sun, rising against dun hills. A holy city . . . Shimeh.

And then the voice, thin as though spoken through the reed throat of a serpent, saying, “Send to me my son.”

The dreamers awoke as one, gasping, struggling to wrest sense from impossibility. Following the protocol established after the first dreams, they found each other in the unlit depths of the Thousand Thousand Halls.

Such desecration, they determined, could no longer be tolerated.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (pp. 4-5). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Moenghus sent continual information.  Information either Kellhus was not privy to, or that Kellhus discarded out of his self-flattering egotism.  But considering just how much of an info dump the dreams seem to have been, I'm guessing that the non-guardian class dunyain (Kellhus is a guardian, a warrior), did not discard all the information of the dreams as noise.  Presuming the Dunyain understood the dreams, they may have acted upon the information dump and destroyed Ishual themselves.


It's worth remembering that Kellhus is prone to discarding anything he doesn't grok as noise and without meaning, inherently beneath his interest, time and attention.  Kellhus constantly throws away extra info or immediately 'mentally rewrites' any scenario where he make an error into a new self-flattering narrative where his error is evidence of his correctness.  because Kellhus' internal narrative is suspiciously that Kellhus is the awesome sauce, incapable of error and of just generally being the awesomest awesome dudiest of dudes, his internal narrative is a justification that his every single move is the most correct the most amazing, the definitely best decision anyone could ever make.  Since his internal narrative is that he is incapable of failure, I find that very very suspicious about just how he was conditioned before he left the Dunyain...  And I wonder just how much those dreams of Moenghus influenced the conditioning he underwent before leaving Ishual.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 21, 2013, 06:29:10 am
Them dunyains... suspicious folks  -.0

Interesting that the dreams were sent to many recipients simultaneously.
Also the snake-y voice?  Perhaps the cish use the sssssnakes for an utteral component  :o

Makes me wonder about Moe's comment about facility with scrying.  Could he have been observing Kellhus' progress?  From campfires and hearths maybe?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 21, 2013, 12:59:47 pm
...

Big +1 to your post.

I like that Moenghus would have actually depended on knowing how many times the Dunyain would Dream the dream sequences before the "desecration could no longer be tolerated" ;).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 21, 2013, 04:50:02 pm
Them dunyains... suspicious folks  -.0

Interesting that the dreams were sent to many recipients simultaneously.
Also the snake-y voice?  Perhaps the cish use the sssssnakes for an utteral component  :o

Makes me wonder about Moe's comment about facility with scrying.  Could he have been observing Kellhus' progress?  From campfires and hearths maybe?

Hmm maybe 2 utterals make the psuke stronger than the anagogis, but not as strong as the 1 utteral and 1 inutter gnosis?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wielokropek on November 21, 2013, 10:00:42 pm
Them dunyains... suspicious folks  -.0

Interesting that the dreams were sent to many recipients simultaneously.
Also the snake-y voice?  Perhaps the cish use the sssssnakes for an utteral component  :o

Makes me wonder about Moe's comment about facility with scrying.  Could he have been observing Kellhus' progress?  From campfires and hearths maybe?

The comment about scrying stands out to me for a couple of reasons.

If I'm not mistaken, Kellhus is able to use the metagnostic cant of transposing to get to either places he can see, or places that he knows very well. Furthermore, the cants of calling require that one be familiar with the place the recipient is in, which seems to tie into the whole needing to see the physical place or be familiar with the location before being able to transpose the two grounds. The restrictions about knowing the place could have several implications: needing to hold the spatial and temporal locations of the ground in your awareness to direct an inutteral toward it; and perhaps needing to be familiar with the meatphysical location of the ground, needing to know how the place that is your soul in the outside connects with the place that is that ground in the outside.

There are a couple of things I'm speculating about here: how and whether souls can interact with the metaphysics of the ground, whether there's a difference between soul and ground at all (perhaps not, considering how Kellhus says soul becomes place when we see the cant of transposing), and whether there's a connection between knowing the ground you want to go to and the probability trance.

I think that for Kellhus to know that nothing will interfere with the ground he wants to go to (like a bashrag smashing the ground or Aurang collapsing the floor beneath him), he has to know how that ground will appear in the future, which he may be able to accurately determine with the probability trance. It might also be that the probability trance draws a metaphysical connection between Kellhus' soul and the ground he wants to get to, but I've got no concrete evidence for that.

A lot (perhaps all) of Moenghus' magic that we've seen or that he claims to be capable of might be connected to knowing the ground and its movements, something best done through the probability trance (or the Thousandfold Thought, but I'm still not sure what to make of that). If Moenghus is capable of scrying, how might those skills be enhanced by the probability trance, and how may those enhancements enable him to manipulate Kellhus' journey and domination of the holy war?

The scrying could also be strongly linked to the third sight of the Cishaurim. Even if Moenghus could carry no water, if he made improvements to srcying with the probability trance and he could teach the Cishaurim to better grasp the subtleties of emotion involved in those improvements, then perhaps the Cishaurim weren't able to see Kellhus just because he shone in the third sight, but because his location, his soul, connected to so much ground that they couldn't help but see him. All roads lead to Kellhus.

Another errant thought is that the snakes may facilitate the third sight. We know from Mimara that they're holy, and Moenghus calls them his eyes, so there may be in intimate connection between a Cishaurim and his snakes. If so, then maybe the snakes make whatever sight the Cishaurim have more ... holy? I may have to continue this in Storks, Faith, & Holy Animals.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 21, 2013, 10:55:57 pm
The reed throat of a serpent thing could have just been a clue from the very beginning of the series that Moenghus had become Cishaurim.  Nice.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 22, 2013, 02:49:10 pm
There are a couple of things I'm speculating about here: how and whether souls can interact with the metaphysics of the ground, whether there's a difference between soul and ground at all (perhaps not, considering how Kellhus says soul becomes place when we see the cant of transposing), and whether there's a connection between knowing the ground you want to go to and the probability trance.

Makes me think of:

Quote from: TDTCB, p566
No thought.

The boy extinguished. Only a place.

This place.

...

A place without breath or sound. A place of sight alone. A place without before or after... almost.

...

And the place where Kellhus had once existed extended an open hand - the blond hairs like luminous filaments against tanned skin - and grasped the knife from stunned space.

I always thought this a fitting metaphor for the subjective feeling in deepening mediation but you make me think it's a cypher for the metaphysics of the narrative.

If Moenghus is capable of scrying, how might those skills be enhanced by the probability trance, and how may those enhancements enable him to manipulate Kellhus' journey and domination of the holy war?

A big ol' +1.

Another errant thought is that the snakes may facilitate the third sight. ... I may have to continue this in Storks, Faith, & Holy Animals.

I like this. I'm sure we have enough evidence for a couple posts. You should keep thinking on it and expose your thoughts.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 03:03:21 pm
Quote
All roads lead to Kellhus.

I think this is basically what the Thousandfold thought is, or at least what it was until Kellhus moved beyond the circumfix.


There do seem to be a lot of connection between the transposition cant and the calling cant, which seems reasonable. It is a good point though that with the scrying cant, both cants are improved. A schoolman could potentially search of the person they want to contact in the physical world before contacting them via dreams. Also, Kellhus could have a current view of exactly where he wants to be by scrying it before he jumps.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 22, 2013, 07:13:58 pm
Quote
All roads lead to Kellhus.

I think this is basically what the Thousandfold thought is, or at least what it was until Kellhus moved beyond the circumfix.


There do seem to be a lot of connection between the transposition cant and the calling cant, which seems reasonable. It is a good point though that with the scrying cant, both cants are improved. A schoolman could potentially search of the person they want to contact in the physical world before contacting them via dreams. Also, Kellhus could have a current view of exactly where he wants to be by scrying it before he jumps.

and all roads lead to kellhus line would also explain why Moenghus told him he was the only option.


Anyone remember if Moenghus sings for the scrying or is it entirely inutteral?

might as well look it up myself:

Quote
“I have come, Emperor, so you might parlay with another.”

Xerius blinked. “Who?”

For a moment, it seemed the Nail of Heaven flashed from the Cishaurim’s brow.

There was a shout from the blackness of the porticoes, and Xerius raised his hands before him.

Cememketri intoned something incomprehensible, dizzyingly so. A globe, composed only of ghostly trails of blue fire, leapt about them.

But nothing had happened. The Cishaurim stood, as motionless as before. The asp’s eyes glowed like amber coals in the firelight.
Then Skeaös gasped, “His face!”

Superimposed like a transparent mask over Mallahet’s skull-like visage was the face of another, a grizzled Kianene warrior who still bore the desert’s mark on his hawkish features. Appraising eyes peered from the Cishaurim’s empty sockets, and a phantom goatee hung from his chin, braided in the manner of a Kianene Grandee.

“Skauras,” Xerius said. He had never seen the man before, but somehow he knew he looked upon the Sapatishah-Governor of Shigek, the heathen scoundrel whom the Southern Columns had fenced with for more than four decades.

The ghostly lips moved, but all Xerius heard was a far-off voice speaking in the lolling rhythms of Kiani. Then the real lips moved beneath, saying, “Excellent guess, Ikurei. You, I know by your coins.”

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (pp. 154-155). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Mother fucker.  I never realized that Moenghus works sorcery without an utteral component.

He is far beyond Kellhus, methinks.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 07:34:59 pm
I was reffering to scrying as what Sorweel's Mandate teacher does to look behind them and he sees the 10-yoke army.

As for your quote, I'd say Moe was far enough away to not be heard. (if Moe turns out to be special, I'm going to feel rather silly at the end of this)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 22, 2013, 08:44:12 pm
that's silly.  Xerious hears the guards in the portico and he hears Skauros and he hears Moenghus translation.  And since Moe is talking during the scene that transpires it more or less precludes any opportunity to be singing as well.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 08:48:00 pm
So you're suggesting that a Dunyain who has absolute control over every muscle in his body cannot whisper?

Its probably just standard practice to yell cants, but I doubt its mandatory.

Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 08:54:57 pm
Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"
.
Anyone else think that it would be possible to have enough purity of intent/meaning to manifest the utteral component of sorcery without any language at all?


edit:
Don't have my book in front of me, are the Cish ever noted as singing? I wonder if the Psuke is all inutteral to begin with.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 22, 2013, 09:35:48 pm
Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"

Inralatus says something to Uncle Holy along the lines of "Isn't it strange how we speak without actually speaking?" to which Maithanet replies "We're speaking now."
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 09:38:44 pm
Once I get home I'l look it up. It would either be in the beginning or in one of Kell's flashbacks I think.

But that is what I'm point towards Triskele. There is plenty of nonverbal communication that goes on in daily life, much more so to a Dunyain. Taken to an extreme enough level, like only a Dunyain could do, maybe that could actually yield sorcery.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 22, 2013, 11:09:34 pm
Mother fucker.  I never realized that Moenghus works sorcery without an utteral component.

He is far beyond Kellhus, methinks.

Illustrates the point I've been trying to make about utterals/inutterals, the Mark and the Psukhe. 

Note that the snake's eyes flare? 

I'm also going to suggest Moe left one of his snakes with Skauras for this trick.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wielokropek on November 22, 2013, 11:33:37 pm
Don't have my book in front of me, are the Cish ever noted as singing? I wonder if the Psuke is all inutteral to begin with.

There's no mention of the Cishaurim singing on the plains of Mengedda, though Iyokus does say that the Cishaurim use concerts when talking to Eleazeras after the battle. Perhaps he's just adopting the terminology the Scarlet Spires use to describe their own sorcery.

Similarly, I can't find any mention of words or song in regards to the Psukhe at Caraskand or anywhere in Shimeh. I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Cishaurim don't use an utteral component at all.

I'm also going to suggest Moe left one of his snakes with Skauras for this trick.

Interestingly enough, Mallahet's described as having only one snake with him when dealing with Xerius, but three snakes come to Moenghus after Kellhus stabs him. Even if he left one snake with Skauras and took another with him, what did he do with the third?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 01:42:32 am
+1 on no utteral for Cishaurim. Neat idea.

Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"

Inralatus says something to Uncle Holy along the lines of "Isn't it strange how we speak without actually speaking?" to which Maithanet replies "We're speaking now."

If the Dunyain could ever trust one of their own - then maybe two Dunyain could communicate like Cnaiur does with Kellhus a few times through PON (some of my favorite moments in the series).

But Cnaiur is being honest with his inner sense and attempting to communicate that to Kellhus. As Inrilatas says, the words that they speak to each other are essentially devoid of data as we'd understand meaning. As soon as one Dunyain affects suspicion of another they can't help but engage in this multisensory dance whereby they are attempting to limit personal information available to another Dunyain.

I call not sorcery.

Mother fucker.  I never realized that Moenghus works sorcery without an utteral component.

He is far beyond Kellhus, methinks.
Note that the snake's eyes flare?

These two points are actually blowing my mind.

Interestingly enough, Mallahet's described as having only one snake with him when dealing with Xerius, but three snakes come to Moenghus after Kellhus stabs him. Even if he left one snake with Skauras and took another with him, what did he do with the third?

And how does Moenghus (or any Cishaurim) experience this connection? Is it like Warging?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wielokropek on November 23, 2013, 02:40:50 am
And how does Moenghus (or any Cishaurim) experience this connection? Is it like Warging?

I'm inclined to think that a Psukari and his snake or snakes share a soul. We know that all sorcery is worked through the soul, especially so for the Cishaurim (they can have their souls removed by having their sorcery wrenched from them), and it seems like the snakes are deeply connected with at least some of the sorcery the Cishaurim practice. Moenghus' voice in the dreams he sends to the Dunyain comes out serpentine and his snake's eyes flash when he does the multi-face thing. Unfortunately, there are no other passages I'm aware of that show a connection between a Psukari's sorcery and his snakes.

Since it's always the sorcerer's eyes that light up, and Moenghus calls his snakes his eyes, I'm pretty sure that whatever metaphysical thing that happens to make a sorcerer's eyes light up happens to both the Psukari and the snakes. There's also the whole fact that the Cishaurim use the snakes to see, so the snakes' sensory input somehow has to be shared with the Cishaurim.

Ultimately, I don't think the snake and Psukari could share a point of view and both be involved in working the same sorcery if they don't share the same place, the same soul.

Even if there's no soul or sorcerous connection, Moenghus' snakes coming to him without him casting any sorcery after he'd been stabbed supports at least some sort of snake-Psukari connection.

If the Dunyain could ever trust one of their own - then maybe two Dunyain could communicate like Cnaiur does with Kellhus a few times through PON (some of my favorite moments in the series).

Makes me wonder about Ishual and how the pragma or any post-training Dunyain would talk to each other. They'd probably have to use more actual speech in the thousand thousand halls due to the general light-prohibition, but otherwise there might not be much said in Ishual at all.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 03:29:24 am
All good thoughts.

I wonder at the narrative mechanism of the snakes and if it will ever be described. Come on, Meppa flashbacks of Dr. Mengele, I mean, Moenghus ;).

Makes me wonder about Ishual and how the pragma or any post-training Dunyain would talk to each other. They'd probably have to use more actual speech in the thousand thousand halls due to the general light-prohibition, but otherwise there might not be much said in Ishual at all.

I have a feeling that once the trained Dunyain are let into the Thousand Thousand Halls they commit to and engage in a battle-royale style existence.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 23, 2013, 04:06:13 am
Y'all are blowing my mind on the snakes.  But I must offer one bit of walk-back...the line about the asp's eyes lighting up could easily be interpreted as just the reflection of other light....it doesn't necessarily mean that sorcery rung through the snake. 

That said...why didn't Moe have his snakes with him?  I don't know why I haven't pondered this, but all of the sudden it stands out as a potentially huge moment.  Moe has been waiting for Kellhus for decades and his snakes just weren't up for it?????  Bizarre.  Is that an authorial mistake, or is there something to be gleaned from this?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 23, 2013, 04:46:05 am
I always thought in TTT, Moe's snakes were around the chamber giving him effective 360deg vision.  Trying to compensate tactically as 'twere.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 23, 2013, 09:09:03 am
Y'all are blowing my mind on the snakes.  But I must offer one bit of walk-back...the line about the asp's eyes lighting up could easily be interpreted as just the reflection of other light....it doesn't necessarily mean that sorcery rung through the snake. 

That said...why didn't Moe have his snakes with him?  I don't know why I haven't pondered this, but all of the sudden it stands out as a potentially huge moment.  Moe has been waiting for Kellhus for decades and his snakes just weren't up for it?????  Bizarre.  Is that an authorial mistake, or is there something to be gleaned from this?

Lull Kellhus into a false sense of security, and deny Kellhus data of how Moenghus and his snakes interact.  If Moenghus does not have perfect control over the snakes they may betray his emotions to Kellhus.

My crackpot would say that Moenghus lured Kellhus into dying exactly where Moe wanted to die, at the bottom of a great pit at the bottom of a great non man mansion, a mansion know to be a place of direct ascension to heaven.  Perhaps it was an analogue to the Great Medial Screw and Kellhus ignorantly provides everything just right for Moe to ascend heaven and skip out on his damnation fate.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 02:19:13 pm
Lol - that's pretty much been a major nerdanel of mine as well, lockesnow, added that the Cishaurim (people believing in Moenghus) were being slaughtered at the same time.

But my weigh in on Moenghus not having the snakes (sweet sejenus, when did we stop talking about sorcery ;)) is that he knew everything that was going to happen before it happened. Maybe the snakes returned to him because his portion of its will is gone?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wielokropek on November 23, 2013, 02:31:16 pm
But my weigh in on Moenghus not having the snakes (sweet sejenus, when did we stop talking about sorcery ;)) is that he knew everything that was going to happen before it happened.
I always thought in TTT, Moe's snakes were around the chamber giving him effective 360deg vision.  Trying to compensate tactically as 'twere.

These two ideas definitely complement each other. If Moenghus wanted to see Kellhus' shit from all possible angles, then it only makes sense to put the snakes in the skin spy torture room where Kellhus provides some unwavering sorcerous light, talks about hearing the No-God, and unleashes the metagnosis.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on November 25, 2013, 09:16:59 am
That could have been Moe's pit of obscenities, and when Kellhus attempted to translocate, Moenghus used the snakes to observe and counter his spell by anchoring Kell from three points, instead Moe toppled Kell into the darkness of a carapace.  Moe then took Kellhus' place.

In other words. Moe's got a no-god prototype, filled with a kellhus, sitting at the bottom of kyudea, he's just waiting to turn it on.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 25, 2013, 03:03:19 pm
That could have been Moe's pit of obscenities, and when Kellhus attempted to translocate, Moenghus used the snakes to observe and counter his spell by anchoring Kell from three points, instead Moe toppled Kell into the darkness of a carapace.  Moe then took Kellhus' place.

In other words. Moe's got a no-god prototype, filled with a kellhus, sitting at the bottom of kyudea, he's just waiting to turn it on.
If he turns it on then all the sranc will come running to shimeh. The Great Ordeal will be confused when they meet no resistance all the way too Golgoterath and then find it empty.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 01:57:31 pm
Am I super strange for wanting the No-God to be it's own entity rather than some amalgamous Soul-Heaven Tekne-Chorae thing?

Also completely off topic - what if (since Chorae are actually Gateways to God or Heaven or some nonsense as per the Judging Eye) the No-God is God and the Chorae serve to make reality around the Carapace like an Anarcane Ground or field or something (so God might exist in the mortal realm). It's like its Popemobile.

[EDIT:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 26, 2013, 02:10:41 pm
Its own entity how? Like some kind of summoned figure from the Void as opposed to some trapped world-soul(s)?
I think I would prefer that as well. Seems more fantasy-y than the more scifi-y soul vacuum/entrapment device.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 04:17:22 pm
Well nah, fantasy has long had a tradition of objects capable of trapping/storing souls... look no further than Dragnipur as a recent example.

But yeah, like, the No-God has its own plans.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 27, 2013, 11:41:19 pm
Two random thoughts on sorcery that are Moe-related:


When Moe meets w/ Xerius and uses Skype to bring Skauras in...the light on his forehead is described as ultra-bright as it often is via other Cish.  Not saying that is anything in and of itself, but perhaps another little sign that Moe's weakness is overstated?

Also, when one of the skin spies rushes Moe in Kyudea, Moe who is, at this point, bleeding to death (presumably) and blind (at least in the sense that he has no eyeballs), and is without his snakes, dispatches the skin spy with ease using something along the lines of Blue Fists of Liquid Fury(TM).  Keep in mind that Kellhus had trouble w/ the Thing Called Sarcellus in that wrestling match type of game. 

No other Cish uses either Skype or BFoLF in the entire series that we are aware of, neh?

Curious...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 27, 2013, 11:53:57 pm
Moe does have his snakes.  They come slithering from their hiding places when Cnaiur attends him.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on November 28, 2013, 02:21:40 am
Moe does have his snakes.  They come slithering from their hiding places when Cnaiur attends him.

Ah, good catch.  Is that after Kellhus stabs him but before the skin spy rushes him?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 03:13:23 am
Yeah the snakes come out right when Kell blinks away.

I'd like to point out that Kellhus didn't use any sorcery when he fought the thing.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 12:47:18 pm
No other Cish uses either Skype or BFoLF in the entire series that we are aware of, neh?

Not the same but Inrau's sorcerous punching speed?

I'd like to point out that Kellhus didn't use any sorcery when he fought the thing.

I love when Kellhus fights the skin-spies through Caraskand... so epic, gall.

I mean, sorcery is cool and all but...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 07:57:32 pm
Moved our Chorae specific (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.15) back and forth, Wilshire.

Don't hate ;).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2013, 12:13:54 am
Moved our Chorae specific (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.15) back and forth, Wilshire.

Don't hate ;).
>:(
nah jk, you can have your way with me.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2013, 01:54:21 pm
Lmao ::).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wic on December 03, 2013, 04:08:17 pm
Madness, your use of Randy Marsh's "gall" has worked it's way into my brain and is unceasing.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 03, 2013, 05:19:57 pm
Lol - wow, Wic. I might as well call it a day and hit the sack because it's not getting better than that :)).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on December 28, 2013, 05:45:36 am
I was about to do this in another thread before realizing it would better here, but I wanted, pretty much just for fun, to make a little hierarchy of who the best sorcerers in the history of Earwa; both individuals and groups.  Here's my best attempt at it:

I mean this numbering system loosely for ease of ordering, but it includes groups as well as individuals.  Prepare to nitpick away.

1.  Kellhus

2.  Titirga

I'm making conjecture that however great it's suggested to us in False Sun that Titirga is, Kellhus is ahead.  But Titirga was mysterious enough...and the stuff about being blind and seizing things that shouldn't be seized...who knows.

3.  Su-juroit

I'm thinking that if he was the first of any kind to pull of the meta-gnostic, that's arguably more impressive than Serwa or Saccarees who were taught it

4-5.  Serwa and Saccarees.  Probably quite comparable in that they've got the meta-gnosis.  But interesting that we weren't really told if there aren't more that can now pull it off...perhaps Kellhus taught more?

6.  The best Quya plus Seswatha plus Noshainrau.  As far as we know, Su-juroit is the only one pre-Kellhus to do meta-gnosis, so that's what I'm basing this on.  And we're not told that Seswatha ever did it, and it seems implied that the Mandate pre-Kellhus would know it if Seswatha did.  I think we're led to believe that Noshainrau and Seswatha were comparable.  When I say the best of the Quya I mean like Nil'giccas and Gin-yursis and the like.  But it seems implied from Akka's POV that on average, a Quya will beat a Mandate sorcerer.

7.  The rest of the Mandate.  Gnosis trumps everyone further down the list

8.  Meppa - I'm assuming he is the most powerful Cishaurim ever, but I can't really prove that

9. Cishaurim primaries.  I think it's strongly implied that it turned out that they were stronger than the top Anagogic sorcerers. 

10.  It's gets dicey from here...I think you could lump the lower Cishaurim and the Saik, SS, and Mysunsai all together and just say that it depends on who is who.  So we might easily assume that Eleazaras tops the list in this group but represents the top of the bottom.  The Analogies lose to the Psukhe if it's one side's best versus another side's best.


OK - That was a crude approximation.  Feel free to poke holes.  Also understand that I have probably never felt like more of a geek in my life as I do making this post.   :)


ETA:  Oh...and then there's the great mystery of where Moenghus fits...

Or if he's already on the list, but I can't think where.

Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wic on December 28, 2013, 06:45:58 am
I'd put Quya above Serwa and Saccarees.  Regardless of the metagnosis, Quya have been singing for centuries, and we've seen the toll metagnosis takes on Serwa, and Cet'ingira sang for days taking down the Barricades. 

I think the true power of the metagnosis is in the sheer variety of potential cants made possible by a second inutteral.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on December 28, 2013, 07:13:37 am
I'd put Quya above Serwa and Saccarees.  Regardless of the metagnosis, Quya have been singing for centuries, and we've seen the toll metagnosis takes on Serwa, and Cet'ingira sang for days taking down the Barricades. 

I think the true power of the metagnosis is in the sheer variety of potential cants made possible by a second inutteral.

That's a good point.  I guess it depends on what we mean by power.  If all Serwa can do w/ the meta-gnosis is gear up for one exhausting leap, that doesn't mean she could take Cleric in a fight.  Just that she's technically capable of getting a second inutteral which the quya do not. 

I forgot to mention the Daimos...

From what we've seen so far we know Ciphrang can take lower Cishaurim but have much more trouble with the top ones, and don't seem to be able to take gnostics.  But who knows if we've seen how far the Daimos can be taken...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 28, 2013, 01:17:04 pm
1. Kellhus
2. Titirga
3. Su'juroit (I support Trisk's nerdaneling)
4. Aurang (& Aurax?)
7. Shauriatas (Shaeonanra)
4. Quya (I support Wic's thinking - in line with that, imagine what a Quya might do if they could grasp the second inutteral? [Lol, actually, we have in #3.] And even though, it's a question of strict sorcerous ability: Quya are just as likely to be Ishroi - for these purposes, I'm not making a class call, just suggesting that one seems to indicate martial ability over sorcerous, as well.)

This is more difficult than I'd like to think. For one, I think that Metagnostic sorcerers and sorceresses are more prevalent than the narrative as led on. Secondly, the Metagnostic Cant of Transposition seems like it would be a particularly difficult one, among the possible Metagnostic variations of War-Cants and Wards. But Seswatha and Noshainrau are so historically G...

So...

5. Serwa & Saccarees (Metagnostics)
6. Seswatha + Noshainrau

This is also difficult because I still think we've been denied a good working explanation of the Cishaurim's power. Is it the case that they do so wield as Kellhus suggests? I know Bakker's answers are often misleading (emotion, non-cognitive, intuition have all been used to describe the Puskhe). Perhaps, the Cishaurim reflect Eskeles' analogy of the God of Gods, with all the Cishaurim sharing one finite power base (obviously, some Primary to others), as has been suggested by others.

I'm going to posit strong and go with:

7. Meppa
8. Moenghus the Elder
9. Mandate Entire (as averaged from a baseline ability of having lived Seswatha's Dreams)
10. Cishaurim Primaries
11. Anagogic Daimos
12. The Rest of Them (as Trisk highlighted above in #10 of that list)

That'll shake things up 8).

EDIT:

Also understand that I have probably never felt like more of a geek in my life as I do making this post.   :)

Lol, this is it? Congrats on pushing the boundaries of skin ;) (though, I think I disagree with your nomenclature. I don't remember where the word 'geek' came from but it's been misappropriated and has developed negative connotations where I'm at :P).

EDIT II: Had to share this... Lmao:

Quote from: Wikipedia: etymology
This word comes from English dialect geek or geck (meaning a "fool" or "freak"; from Middle Low German Geck). This root survives in the Dutch and Afrikaans adjective gek ("crazy"), as well as some German dialects, and in the Alsatian word Gickeleshut ("jester's hat"; used during carnival). In 18th century Austria-Hungary, Gecken were freaks on display in some circuses. In 19th century North America, the term geek referred to a performer in a geek show in a circus or travelling carnival side-shows (see also freak show). The 1976 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary included only the definition regarding geek shows. Wrestler Freddie Blassie originated the term "pencil necked geek".

The Scandinavian cognates of the term carry a slightly different meaning of "making a fool out of someone else". This is evident in the transitive verb gäcka in Swedish and the phrase drive gæk med in Danish, both of which mean "to outsmart" or "to fool", as in the Swedish expression att gäcka rättvisan ("to cunningly escape justice"). In Denmark, the Easter tradition of sending anonymous paper-cut letters called gækkebreve is intended to puzzle or tease the recipient.

Also, as Wikipedia can be edited by anybody, I'd take these sources at a laugh until I find something definitive ;).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on December 28, 2013, 04:40:26 pm
Speaking of the words that Bakker uses to describe the Cish...one of the other ones oft-used is "passion," but that one has always confused me a bit. 

On the one hand, it presumably means passionate faith in the Solitary God.  That makes a ton of sense in the Bakkerverse to me given the value of belief.  It's kind of like saying that for the Cishaurim, the are increasing returns to the value of belief.

But on the other hand...presumably there is a ton of passionate belief in the Fanim lands...what makes the Cishaurim able to bear Water?  Are we ever even told that they are of the Few?  If the old adage is "Only the Few can see the Few," and people can't necessarily see the Cish, are they not of the Few?  If that's so, what is it that differentiates the Psukhari from the non-Psukhari within Fanim society?  Is the blinding completely essential but only the older/more experienced know how to wield it upon blinding?  So you'd need to be an initiate not just to be blinded but to be shown the ropes upon blinding? 

I'd totally forgotten to mention Aurang on my list.  He's interesting because we're to presume that he got the Gnosis, but he does a few things that seem pretty unique.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 28, 2013, 10:06:26 pm
Blinding seems huge.

If the Cishaurim are something different than sorcery, which I think has been suggested, is what they do thaumaturgy (Faith Power) instead?

Can they create?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on December 28, 2013, 11:52:23 pm
I think that, whatever the Psukhe is, it's "in a class of its own" so to speak. Thaumaturgy seems immune to aporetics, which would make sense if we interpret Chorae as objects that "correct the World", or force it back into its intended shape, and that's not the case with the Psukhe. I think the Psukhe somehow involves grasping one's own soul and using that as a source of power, which would correlate with the ties to passion and emotion, and also why a Ciphrang is able to yank out the soul of a Cish by literally grabbing the beam of Water.

On the topic of power-levels, one thing I've wondered is how any human sorceror could possibly rival a Nonman. I mean Titirga's described as being middle-aged, but even if we stretch it past credibility and say he's a hundred, the Nonmen are still thousands upon thousands of years older. Are we just to assume that sorcerous strength and age aren't all that related, or is there something special about humans? Even if we consider Titirga a unique case, there are still guys like Seswatha, or Shae, who were powerful as fuck.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 29, 2013, 01:27:41 am
I picked thaumaturgy off of Duskweaver and, I think, we had limited that to things that Psatma, Porsparian, the White-Luck Warrior, (possibly, Mimara) seem to affect in Yatwer's stead.

This is why Curethan and I were trying to distinguish between:

Perhaps we could summarize the two alternatives thusly?

A) The modes of sight are different perspectives on the same metaphysical spectrum.

B) The modes of sight are looking at three different metaphysical dimensions.

I think those are decent thoughts on the Psukhe.

Though, I did respond to this in exactly the same way you are suggesting that the Psukhe and thaumaturgy could be the same type of thing.

On the topic of power-levels, one thing I've wondered is how any human sorceror could possibly rival a Nonman. I mean Titirga's described as being middle-aged, but even if we stretch it past credibility and say he's a hundred, the Nonmen are still thousands upon thousands of years older. Are we just to assume that sorcerous strength and age aren't all that related, or is there something special about humans? Even if we consider Titirga a unique case, there are still guys like Seswatha, or Shae, who were powerful as fuck.

Humans seem to be able to make some semantic leaps that the Nonmen cannot?

There are still sorcerous revelations to come, unfortunately for those of us speculating at this point. Bakker can still drop game-changing history or revelations on us. I happen to think that the Consult and Ishterebinthian Quya will still surprise us with their sorcerous innovation.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on December 31, 2013, 12:24:23 am
Humans seem to be able to make some semantic leaps that the Nonmen cannot?

There are still sorcerous revelations to come, unfortunately for those of us speculating at this point. Bakker can still drop game-changing history or revelations on us. I happen to think that the Consult and Ishterebinthian Quya will still surprise us with their sorcerous innovation.

It is kind of staggering to think about how little of the Nonmen we've actually seen in this series.  They are ever-present in a way in that they're such a part of Earwa's history, and we have seen Kyudea and Cil-Aujas on camera.  But if you take out the TTT appendix, here's all I count:

-Mystery Nonman that is Mek in TDTCB prologue

-Flashback dreams for which I think Mek is the only Nonman to make an appearance?

-Cleric/Nil'giccas; the only Nonman we get any significant onscreen time with

-Nin-sariccas and his cohort coming to parlay

-Quya way off in the distance seen by Eskeles and the Scions

Is that it?  If so, only Cleric has any significant onscreen presence in the story so far.  So the Nonmen and the Consult are sort of similar with that ever-present but rarely seen aspect.  In a way you have to give Bakker credit for that kind of restraint.  Writing a big epic fantasy series and keeping so much of that brimming at the edges but never flowing over.

But you're right.  What might Ishterebinth be like?  What has the last remaining Nonman mansion even been up to?  If there are Intact, what could they have been working on? 

I have a prediction though...I suspect anything is possible culturally or administratively, but I suspect that they have not advanced sorcery much.  I bet you any advancements come from Kellhus.  I'd be happy to be wrong though.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 31, 2013, 12:38:48 am
Nonmen are with the Inchoroi and Sranc who the Werigda hunt at the end of TWP.

In a way you have to give Bakker credit for that kind of restraint.  Writing a big epic fantasy series and keeping so much of that brimming at the edges but never flowing over.

Big +1. I remember reading Pat's review of WLW and being all like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S STILL NO CONSULT?!" and throwing my computer ;).

But you're right.  What might Ishterebinth be like?  What has the last remaining Nonman mansion even been up to?  If there are Intact, what could they have been working on? 

I have a prediction though...I suspect anything is possible culturally or administratively, but I suspect that they have not advanced sorcery much.  I bet you any advancements come from Kellhus.  I'd be happy to be wrong though.

Cannot wait :)).

I suspect you are wrong, Trisk. Bakker suggested on ZTS that the Ishterebinthian Nonmen were using means both "sorcerous and otherwise" to prolong their sanity.

And certainly the Consult will have sorcerous abilities we've not yet been exposed to, whether or not they are innovations as per the Metagnosis, we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on January 02, 2014, 09:41:38 pm
I'm guessing the Architect is up there in the top three.  Shaeonanra/Shauriatus also ought to be there.

I imagine that the Architect (aka Elrond) will result in very fascinating tour of Ishterebinth. :-p
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on January 03, 2014, 02:25:43 am
Who is the Architect?  Was he someone barely mentioned somewhere?  False Sun?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on January 03, 2014, 04:05:39 am
Siqu founder of the Mihtrulic School of the old North, iirc.  Made the Barricades, Agonic collars and other sorcererous artifacts (probably the soul locks at the Coffers too).  Certainly an innovator in the field of sorcery.  Mentioned explicitly in TFS.  Interestingly, Shae's cunning trumped the Barricades, but Mek's stamina/skill was required to counter the glamour.  I have the impression that the Architect did not survive the first apocalypse, but it's a possibility for sure.

Really think that age is important for raw power amongst sorcerers due to the references to attendant 'inertia'.  There seems to be a balance between power, finese and innovation that allows short lived sorcerers like Akka (armed with lateral thinking) to compete with ancient powerhouses like Cleric.  The potential of an ancient Cish might be a frightening revelation.

Aside from Akka, I think all the other Ciphrang were defeated by weight of numbers + chorae.  Daimos should be rated higher than psukhe and standard anagogic sorcery.  It made the SS the premier anagogic school.  Aside from the primaries, the scarlet spires had the upper hand over the Cish, and I think Eli and co were outnumbered when the Nine Incandati jumped them.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on January 03, 2014, 04:08:33 am
The Architect was the one that fashioned The Barricades around Golgotterath. Should be in the False Sun.

BTW, on sorcery:

I don't think I ever fully realized this (though it has probably been mentioned in this thread, or elsewhere), but both the gnostic and anagogic school use nonman language in their cants. Check the back of TDTCB in the language section:
"Auja-Gilcunni - The lost "ground tongue of the Nonmen" ->"Gilcunya - Toungue of the Nonmen Quya and the Gnostic Schools" -> "High Kunna - Debased version of Gilcunya, used by the Anagogic Schools of the Three Seas"
Perhaps this draws a line between "sorcery"(shcoolmen) and "thaumaturgy" (water-bearers)

And a quote about witches from the prologue of TDTCB, since there are so few (again probably already written down but it helps me remember if I write it myself):
"There were witches, Leweth had told him, whose urgings could harness the wild agencies asleep in earth, animal and tree."
Witches and trees. Whats with all the trees!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Somnambulist on January 03, 2014, 04:18:19 am
Witches and trees. Whats with all the trees!

There was also that great bit in WLW where the scalpers were talking to Akka about cutting down one of the trees and found a skull embedded in the heartwood.  The backstory of the tree worship in High Ainon, how trees took 100 years to attain sentience, and also how they hated the quick as only the 'perpetually confused' could hate.  Fkn awesome.  Trees and trees and trees, oh my!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Cüréthañ on January 03, 2014, 04:20:32 am
Totally, Wilshire.  I was examining the fact that the Cish probably don't use the utteral/inutteral combo upthread, I think. 
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on January 03, 2014, 02:44:21 pm
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

This thought as stemmed a few more. I wonder if the Witches, who practice outside of school, bare the mark? Certainly the ones like the Swali do, but what about the ones that "harness the wild agencies of earth, animal, and tree" (which, btw, reminds me of of the talking face in the mud). The Wathi Doll could me moved without becoming marked. Akka wrote the word in some Human tongue and Kellhus spoke it. Maybe it didn't mark him because it was spoken without the Nonmen tongue.
The Mandate use this little trick to find potential Few, so those that would be casting this spell would never know the Nonmen tongue and would always be speaking it in a Human language. Perhaps it is not what was spoken but how it was spoken. If all the Witch cants are comprised of minor spells/incantations spoken in some Human tongue, then maybe they never actually bare the mark... (someone can probably find a line of text that refutes all of this, but it sounds good for now :P)

The only other group that we have heard of that could use sorcery are the "Shamans" of old. I don't recall where this was mentioned, (TWP maybe), but I wonder how old they were and what language they spoke? I guess the question there is did Men possess some kind of magic before the Tutelage. If before, again what language and did they have the mark, though if after than there is no mystery.

Akka disconnects language from sorcery for us, but I'm wondering if that is wrong. Maybe it plays a far more important role than we thought.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on January 03, 2014, 05:00:21 pm
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

Connect this thought to Akka's description of the onta, and we have a plausible explanation for just why Kellhus was so overwhelmed by wild nature (rather than carefully controlled and directed nature)

As for witches, Leweth's description of them, and his particulars in understanding how they work is one of the things that make me think that Moenghus was directing Kellhus' education via the vehicle of Leweth at this point (note the sorcery in the scene where Leweth 'appears to listen to an unheard speaker' before answering Kellhus' questions).  The witches detail is the sort of thing that intricately understands a magical theological distinction of their particular supernatural attributes, you don't see achamian providing that sort of perspective.  he doesn't understand witches because he disdains them.  Just as he doesn't understand the Cishaurim and believes them inferior to the Mandate. 

Not to mention that Leweth is a hermit in a world without hermits (because the Sranc are so dangerous, Akka is the only other one who exists and he's a sorcerer) and has exceptionally accurate knowledge of multiple and varied societies thousands of miles away that he has never visited, and only heard of once or twice in his lifetime from the vanishingly rare caravan.  As solo pointed out with a quote from an ancient text, in comparable mideval times, people believed insane monstrous myths about other civilizations approximately as far away, yet Leweth has none of these prejudices, dispensing instead sage Yoda like instruction to his pupil--complete with a convenient tale of woe that makes Kellhus feel all super-duper prideful and ego-happy when Kellhus "gives" Leweth a revelation about Leweth's past, and Kellhus is so super duper thoroughly pleased with himself for doing it that he is completely and totally deceived, he heard/found what he wanted to, complete with a conclusion that flatters flatters flatters Kellhus just as a Freudian analyst's conclusions were always about flattering the analyst, and promptly stopped thinking. (because if the puzzle is solved why continue probing?)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on January 03, 2014, 05:28:24 pm
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

Connect this thought to Akka's description of the onta, and we have a plausible explanation for just why Kellhus was so overwhelmed by wild nature (rather than carefully controlled and directed nature)
I like that. It could very well be that his "inner eye" opened as he stumbled through the wilderness. That would help justify why he is so miserably stupid for the first few pages. He literally just starts walking south, with no map, no idea how far he is going to go, and without any idea how to hunt/fish/forage or otherwise survive. Its literally one of the dumbest things done in the entire series.

Kellhus also says that Mek's sword "glowed with an otherworldly light", which I think could be the blood of the onta, though that only kind of makes sense, since he doesn't mention the rest of the nonman being stained..

I'm still not with you on the Leweth thing, but if it makes you feel better, we never see Leweth die. Moenghus and Leweth can still be pulling all the strings (but thats not really about sorcery).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on January 03, 2014, 06:37:56 pm
Leweth is just a pawn, it doesn't really matter if he's alive or dead.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: themerchant on February 07, 2014, 12:56:47 am
Trying to find a sorcery thread in a subforum i can talk about everything.

for sorcery we know meaning is everything. and to keep purity of meaning they use a dead nonman languge (nilguynic or something).

during TWP when Kellhus is building up the awe Akka feels for him he proves there is more basic logic in language (i think i hope i'm right) something about relations between whole sentences rather than subjects and predicates.

So obviously Kellhus understands language and it's structure as well/better as any person alive, why couldn't he create his own language for cants using his advanced knowledge of language that allows even more purity of recitation. Akka has already said that other schools use other languages.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on February 07, 2014, 11:49:04 am
To be honest, we don't know that he hasn't?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on February 07, 2014, 02:01:27 pm
I noticed recently that ALL sorcery uses Nonmen language, or a language derived from it at least. I know its said in the text, probably more than once, that the language spoken doesn't matter, but I don't beleive that. Its seems odd to me that that all schools use a Nonman language, and the more powerful the school, the closer  it is to the original Nonman tongue. Anagogis uses a language which is the least related to Nonmen, Gnostic is one step closer, and the Quya probably use an older version still. Strange that a group of creatures who hate the Gods speak best the tongue of the creator (If indeed the Gods created anything)...

This excludes the Cisharuim, but I think they are something else entirely.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on April 22, 2014, 06:54:47 pm
ON THE APOROS
From Cu'jara Cinmoi
Quote
The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos
I can't help but wonder if there are as many kinds of negative sematic sorceries as their are positives…

Also, I wonder if the gods' song could be considered 'positive' in which case the Aporos could be used to obliterate or remake the world.

ON SALTING
Would be neat to learn if there is any difference in kind.  Is anagogic salt different from gnostic salt?  Is a salted sorcerer of rank better/worse than a pupil?  Is it like qirri in that way?

ON INCREASED POTENCY
Thinking about Titirga and Kellhus, one seems to draw power from 'purity of meaning' while the other may do the same thing but also adds an additional inutteral.  I'm wondering if these are the only two ways a person can increase their magic power and what are the limits for both?  I like Wilshire's notion that they are the same thing, but I could see them being different.  One more emotive, the other more rational.  Kellhus MUST use a third (or fourth or fifth) string because he lack's Titirga's mojo.

ON VARIETIES OF MAGIC
The succesion in humans of gnostic magic to anagogic to daimotic to psukhe gives the reader the most evidence of variety in sorcery.  But the only thing we know about the nonmen is that they had a version of the gnosis and the aporos and we really don't know much different for the Consult.  Both groups could have been developing lord knows what in the interval.  Psukhe is only 300 years old.  What could a 10,000 year old do?  Perhaps we'll see some new kinds of sorcery in Ishterebinth.  Even just like an elevated form of nonman anagogis would be sweet.

ON FANE
Maybe his ultimate explanation is that he met Ajokli out in the dessert and the trickster taught the old priest a whole new trick to screw with the world.

ON TRANSPOSING
If Serwa is lying about warping bruising the onta, then we might be in for a TUC treat that Kellhus has *already* been to Golgotterath!  Maybe she's telling the truth though, in which case a meta-psukhari could have already mapped out the Ark.  Left some meta-psukhari-wathi dolls to do saboteur's work.

ON LANGUAGE AND SORCERY
Really hoping Kellhus or someone is able to do some bad ass stuff utilizing the original, forgotten nonman language.  Also, what do you get if you sing in a tongue like the srancs'?  Also, since the Anagogis uses a nonman language, does this imply some kind of nonman tutelage that is unrecorded?

ON UTTERALS
I get the feeling that these are unnecessary to people like Kellhus/Moenghus.  Kellhus probably keeps using them to give others the impression that if he doesn't have his mouth open, he isn't casting.

ON RANKING SORCERERS
Maybe Shae is #1?  If that guy is 10 fused souls and mouths, that's a shitload of utterals and inutterals.  I assume Kellhus has thought about this, don't know what a person could do to combat it.  Perhaps Kellhus will apply (has already?) the same principle and fuse some stuff on himself to up the anty.  Maybe like a crown containing many sorcerous souls?  Maybe he'll just possess a hundred or so of his sorcerers and be effectively a bigger Shae than Shae.

ON SHAMANS
Did the Inchoroi do something to humans to extinguish the position of shaman?  If shaman's did magic and were not damned for it, then the perhaps the Inchoroi did something to the human soul/world soul/whatever that made doing magic a crime against nature.  The upshot (for the Inchoroi) is that less people would go into sorcery and the faithful would fight sorcerers thus minimizing the number of human sorcerers that the Inchoroi would have to deal with.  Lol, idk.

Maybe interaction with the nonmen 'poisoned' human ability to manipulate the onta.  Something not rectified until Fane.  The nonmen are so dark and don't think they'd give a fuck about teaching humans how damn themselves.

Any nonmen shamans in Ishterebinth's cellar?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on April 23, 2014, 12:18:15 pm
ON THE APOROS
ON SALTING
Would be neat to learn if there is any difference in kind.  Is anagogic salt different from gnostic salt?  Is a salted sorcerer of rank better/worse than a pupil?  Is it like qirri in that way?

We don't know how the differences in taste of the Qirri are determined or what those changes affect? We don't know that sorcerous salt is a hell of a drug?

ON VARIETIES OF MAGIC
The succesion in humans of gnostic magic to anagogic to daimotic to psukhe gives the reader the most evidence of variety in sorcery.  But the only thing we know about the nonmen is that they had a version of the gnosis and the aporos and we really don't know much different for the Consult.  Both groups could have been developing lord knows what in the interval.  Psukhe is only 300 years old.  What could a 10,000 year old do?  Perhaps we'll see some new kinds of sorcery in Ishterebinth.  Even just like an elevated form of nonman anagogis would be sweet.

Lol - I still haven't seen enough Nonmen Gnosis to give up on that. Or Gnosis on Gnosis at all! But Metagnosis does prime us to think that the Consult and the Nonmen would have achieved something in the interval. I'm sure Bakker is going to blow our minds... we've wandered these tracks for too long...

ON TRANSPOSING
If Serwa is lying about warping bruising the onta, then we might be in for a TUC treat that Kellhus has *already* been to Golgotterath!  Maybe she's telling the truth though, in which case a meta-psukhari could have already mapped out the Ark.  Left some meta-psukhari-wathi dolls to do saboteur's work.

Lol. I suspect Kellhus has been to many places in Earwa. And I see no reason to think Serwa lies about bruising the Onta. Honestly, in reading Wilshire's Ch. 3 excerpt about the walking the rest of the way to Ishterebinth, all I could think of was Neo and Trinity approaching the Machine City and some Nonmen sorcerous security system akin to those sentinel artillery are just going to start unloading on them...

ON LANGUAGE AND SORCERY
Really hoping Kellhus or someone is able to do some bad ass stuff utilizing the original, forgotten nonman language.  Also, what do you get if you sing in a tongue like the srancs'?  Also, since the Anagogis uses a nonman language, does this imply some kind of nonman tutelage that is unrecorded?

Or, for instance, if Kellhus made his own sorcerous tongue? This has definitely been suggested elsewhere ;).

ON UTTERALS
I get the feeling that these are unnecessary to people like Kellhus/Moenghus.  Kellhus probably keeps using them to give others the impression that if he doesn't have his mouth open, he isn't casting.

Maybe?

ON RANKING SORCERERS
Maybe Shae is #1?  If that guy is 10 fused souls and mouths, that's a shitload of utterals and inutterals.  I assume Kellhus has thought about this, don't know what a person could do to combat it.  Perhaps Kellhus will apply (has already?) the same principle and fuse some stuff on himself to up the anty.  Maybe like a crown containing many sorcerous souls?  Maybe he'll just possess a hundred or so of his sorcerers and be effectively a bigger Shae than Shae.

I weep for dreams of Synthese to come. The bird is but a ploy ;).

ON SHAMANS
Did the Inchoroi do something to humans to extinguish the position of shaman?  If shaman's did magic and were not damned for it, then the perhaps the Inchoroi did something to the human soul/world soul/whatever that made doing magic a crime against nature.  The upshot (for the Inchoroi) is that less people would go into sorcery and the faithful would fight sorcerers thus minimizing the number of human sorcerers that the Inchoroi would have to deal with.  Lol, idk.

Maybe interaction with the nonmen 'poisoned' human ability to manipulate the onta.  Something not rectified until Fane.  The nonmen are so dark and don't think they'd give a fuck about teaching humans how damn themselves.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on April 23, 2014, 08:04:01 pm
Ooohhh, I like this:

Quote
Or, for instance, if Kellhus made his own sorcerous tongue? This has definitely been suggested elsewhere ;).

Reminds me of Johnathan Strange

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on April 24, 2014, 11:58:11 am
I really liked that book. And it will forever be linked to a memory of a man chastising me at the PetroCanada I worked at for reading it twice. Lmao - "There's not enough time! You can't read things twice!"
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on April 24, 2014, 12:06:10 pm
Lol, that sounds like a Kafka character...or maybe Heller.  Johnathan Strange is probably my favorite book evar!  Read/listened to it even more than Bakker.  :P  Waiting for its sequel makes me appreciate how *soon* TUC will get here!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on April 24, 2014, 12:17:01 pm
I'd heard awhile back that a BBC special was in the works.

They done good with the two part The Colour of Magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colour_of_Magic_%28TV_film%29) - though, common'... Jeremy Irons and Tim Curry in a Discworld Adaptation (I guess, Astin is alright as Twoflower :P). Amazing!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on April 24, 2014, 02:31:51 pm
I'm crazy about what they did with Hogfather.  Favorite Christmas movie ever!  Haven't watched The Colour of Magic yet, so it does justice to the book?

Random sorcery thought: I bet it would be inefficient, but it would be really cool to read about someone using the anagogis to produce a sorcerous flaming sword or something, right out of the air.  Maybe this would be in the Mysunsai territory--less talent means some visually striking bit--a Mysunsai three quick throwing motions and a dagger appears each time, catching a sranc in the throat for each; makes a hurling motion and a spear drags down an unchoraed bashrag.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on April 24, 2014, 07:38:12 pm
What's up with the lack of other surprise attacks by Cishaurim on Scarlet Spires?  It seems that if they were ongoing, Eleazurus would say so.  It doesn't seem likely that the SS has a whole new 'patch' to prevent these things--they were already in the most secure place they could be (warded building and all).  With this power, the Cishaurim could have destroyed the SS way before the holy war.

Possible answers: 1) Moe feigned/was really nearly broken by the jump.  The Cish decide not to risk using him again.  Moe perhaps feigns this because he's only interested in causing the SS's eventual allegiance to the holy war.  2) Moe was honest with the Cish that skin spies were from the Consult, but to defeat them, they would need to rewrite the world through sacrifice and holy war, thus causing the SS to join and eventually fall under Kellhus' domination.


I wonder if the Aporos works categorically or by degree?  Could an aporetic sorcerer collapse a meta-gnostic cant into a simple gnostic cant?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 12:53:12 am
SS filled their compound with attack dogs trained to sniff any Cishaurim. Saffron I believe was the scent. They probably where deterred... Besides, they took out the grandmaster, so the SS was sufficiently scared into inaction. To the Cish, the war was over, at least intellectually. They proved they could kill the grandmaster in his house, what more was there left to do?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on May 05, 2014, 12:53:35 pm
They proved they could kill the grandmaster in his house, what more was there left to do?

Drop the mic ;).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 01:11:37 pm
lol exactly.

They probably moved on to scheming against the Mandate, trying to figure out if they could do something similar and if it would be worth the risk.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on May 06, 2014, 05:05:38 pm
In terms of your brain function, is there a significant difference between being blinded (i.e having no eyes a al Cishaurim) and being blindfolded (temporarily removing light stimuli to your eyes)?

Metaphysically it might be a moot point, as far as using the Psuke goes, but I wonder if there is a physical reason why someone needs to actually pluck out their eyes in order to see.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on May 08, 2014, 06:45:16 pm
In terms of your brain function, is there a significant difference between being blinded (i.e having no eyes a al Cishaurim) and being blindfolded (temporarily removing light stimuli to your eyes)?

Among some other distinctions, yeah. How you are blinded matters quite a bit too (neural connections between major visual structures can fail because of different afflictions, disease, stroke, injury, the neural tissue of the structures themselves might deteriorate, eyeballs removed, which might do damage neurally as well or not at all - in the not at all case, that neural tissue might adapt itself to processing something else, either depending on the function of tissue around it or sometimes mirroring the function of the opposite hemisphere - etc, ec. Something like 30% of your brain matter "processes" vision.)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on May 08, 2014, 10:09:25 pm
SS filled their compound with attack dogs trained to sniff any Cishaurim. Saffron I believe was the scent. They probably where deterred... Besides, they took out the grandmaster, so the SS was sufficiently scared into inaction. To the Cish, the war was over, at least intellectually. They proved they could kill the grandmaster in his house, what more was there left to do?

But I thought the Cish and SS were engaged in a decade long war?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2014, 12:28:03 pm
SS filled their compound with attack dogs trained to sniff any Cishaurim. Saffron I believe was the scent. They probably where deterred... Besides, they took out the grandmaster, so the SS was sufficiently scared into inaction. To the Cish, the war was over, at least intellectually. They proved they could kill the grandmaster in his house, what more was there left to do?


But I thought the Cish and SS were engaged in a decade long war?


The SS thought so, but that doesn't mean the Cish knew/cared. Sometimes rivalries just go one way. Its clear from TTT that the SS never had more than a few conflicts with the Cish, considering how surprised Elazarus was when he started getting his ass kicked. It seems to me that the SS "war" was more like the Cold War, a lot of talk and proxy fighting but with very few head to head battles. They could have duped themselves into thinking they where subverting the Cishaurim for 10 years, while the Cish had not really noticed.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on May 27, 2014, 02:38:21 am
In terms of your brain function, is there a significant difference between being blinded (i.e having no eyes a al Cishaurim) and being blindfolded (temporarily removing light stimuli to your eyes)?

Among some other distinctions, yeah. How you are blinded matters quite a bit too (neural connections between major visual structures can fail because of different afflictions, disease, stroke, injury, the neural tissue of the structures themselves might deteriorate, eyeballs removed, which might do damage neurally as well or not at all - in the not at all case, that neural tissue might adapt itself to processing something else, either depending on the function of tissue around it or sometimes mirroring the function of the opposite hemisphere - etc, ec. Something like 30% of your brain matter "processes" vision.)

Does blinding yourself free up all 30% for anything else?  If so, it could be a very Dunyain thing to do.  Makes sense about training in the thousand thousand halls.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2014, 03:05:20 am
What about the Inchoroi's sorcery? Wonder if they will field their own Ciphrang against the Great Ordeal.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on July 02, 2014, 09:32:01 pm
What about the Inchoroi's sorcery? Wonder if they will field their own Ciphrang against the Great Ordeal.

If Kellhus and the Consult are competing with Daimos, it's going to be a race to see who can empty hell faster!  Could this be a set up for Birth vs War?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 17, 2014, 05:52:31 am
If we didn't already know that Bakker was awesome--he foreshadows the structure of sorcery just before the first display of the gnosis, Inrau's death scene:

"Hugging himself, Paro Inrau scanned the dark courtyard.  He was alone.  Everywhere he could hear the sound of water: the dull roar of rain, the gurgle of eaves, and the slap of gutters.  Through the wash, he could hear the supplicants wail.  Arched into shapes of pain and sorrow, their song rang across the wet stone and cupped his thoughts in stretched notes.  hymns of suffering.  Two voices: one pitched high and plaintive, asking why we must suffer, always why; the other low, filled with the brooding grandeur of the Thousand Temples and bearing the gravity of truth--that Men were at one with suffering and ruin, that tears were the only holy waters."  US paperback 119
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2014, 12:55:48 pm
"tears were the only holy waters"

The cish don't cry when the sing do they?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 18, 2014, 04:03:50 pm
"rears were the only holy waters"

The cish don't cry when the sing do they?

idk, i'm only thinking about the two voices!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 24, 2014, 06:26:03 pm
wouldn't it be cool if mekeritirg's cloak of faces had a proxy trapped in each face and it could do super-duper cloak magic???
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 24, 2014, 06:55:39 pm
Maybe the faces can talk like Kellhus' demon heads. A portable concert.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on September 27, 2014, 11:46:28 pm
"tears were the only holy waters"

The cish don't cry when the sing do they?

Well, Moe's eyes were "bleeding" during the confrontation with Kellhus, which is weird considering he must have taken his eyes out long ago (at the very least,he's eyeless during the weird Calling thing with the Emperor in book one).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 28, 2014, 03:16:58 am
Can you find that bleeding quote? Might be worth investigating...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Somnambulist on September 28, 2014, 04:23:22 am
Moe is still sitting under the waterfall and raises a cloth to his sockets and it comes away with two rose-colored stains.  I've thought about that a lot.  Moe also admits he's lived in darkness a long time.  If that's true, his sockets wouldn't still be bleeding.  It's possible he only put his eyes out recently in a last-ditch attempt to boost his access to the Water.  After all, everyone else in the Cish are blind, so they wouldn't know, and he could have glamored or whelmed those with eyes to convince them he was blind too.  I don't know if I subscribe to my own theory here, but it is an interesting inconsistency. Could also have been a decoy, a younger cish only just blinded, until Moe was sure Kel wasn't going to just try to kill him straight away.  He was fairly obscured by the water.  When Moe realized he wasn't in immediate danger, he pulled a swap and stepped out while the decoy retreated.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 29, 2014, 12:53:08 am
@ Wilshire - awesome!

@ Somnambulist - are suggesting that Moenghus became a Cish just before Kellhus found him?!?!  sweet seju, what would that imply?!?!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Somnambulist on September 29, 2014, 02:21:37 am
Not really.  Like I said, I don't really believe that, but I suppose its a possibility.  In the further interaction with Kel, there is no mention of blood.  I'm inclined to think the latter (the bloody-socketed person was a decoy).  I was only suggesting that his blinding may have been more recent than he was letting on (but again I don't really think that was the case).
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 29, 2014, 10:21:46 am
Not really.  Like I said, I don't really believe that, but I suppose its a possibility.  In the further interaction with Kel, there is no mention of blood.  I'm inclined to think the latter (the bloody-socketed person was a decoy).  I was only suggesting that his blinding may have been more recent than he was letting on (but again I don't really think that was the case).

oh well, it would be interesting if moe did that

maybe the eye sockets are like stigmata? they always bleed?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 29, 2014, 03:50:39 pm
What would cause rose-colored stains? Curious.

The obvious implication is blood, but as described above, this should be impossible.

Substitution: A possible explanation, but to me seams unlikely. I think Kellhus would have noticed at some point that there where 2 people. If the sub stayed at the entrance, he should have stopped Cnaiur/skin-spies, or at least caused a ruckus.



Stigmata: Hilarious. Moe anointed by the Solitary God, a true living prophet, slain by a false one? Not sure on this one. False Stigmata maybe? He opens the wounds in his eyes on a daily basis to portray this illusion?

Kellhus Hallucination: Like the Haoles, he sees it because he thinks they are there.

Authorial Lapse: Bakker forgot that Moe shouldn't be bleeding. Very unlikely. Moe has been blind for years, or at the very lease, months. He shouldn't still be bleeding, and that would be a fairly large mistake.


This line of thought led me to wonder again about the Psuke metaphysics. I think that one must be blind to unleash any water. My guess would be it has something to do with seeing the world as it truly is, unmarred by the false sight of eyes. I think that maybe everyone who can see the Onta that blinds themselves would posses the "third site". Akka described his vision as something akin to seeing the world as it truly was, so maybe being blind is just the next step. Onta sight is seeing a half-truth, and as such the sorceries mar it, while the Psuke see the whole-truth, allowing them to manipulate it fully and leave no mark.

I truly hope Akka created something extremely dangerous when he blinded Iyokus. The blind necromancer...
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: rnblut@aol.com on September 29, 2014, 04:40:48 pm
I just started re-reading the series for the 5th or 6th time.  Anyway, Moe appears in the first book as Mallahant (sp?).  He is the Cis that facilitates the negotiation between emperor and Skauras to betray the Holy War.  So, he was sightless for at least a year prior to meeting Kellhus.  BTW, no bloody sockets are mentioned in his description.

Interestingly the imperial sak regard him as the 2nd most powerful Cis and were it not for is heritage, he would be the Cis leader.  Now the imperial sak get a lot wrong and in the face of a holy war, I don't think the Cis would send their most powerful sorcerer to parley with the enemy.

BTW, this is my first post.  I've enjoyed all the conversations and speculations over the years.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 29, 2014, 04:47:53 pm
Right that's what I was thinking. That was his first appearance, like you said  about a year prior.

The Saik are profoundly ignorant of the Cishaurim. The fact that they think Moe isthe 2nd most powerful probably contributed to their egregious defeat in TTT. They severely underestimated the Cish and the Psuke at every turn.

Welcome to TSA. I didn't even know someone could post a topic as a "guest". Make an account!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 29, 2014, 09:20:30 pm
rnblut@aol.com - nice observation!  Bloody sockets would have been noticed right in front of Xerius.  If Mallahet really is the most powerful Cish, maybe they would be like "nah we can just send him by himself, he's got dat metapsukhe, and he bosses us all around anyways." 

The whole thing with Mallahet not being able to lead the Cish, I think that must be because that's what he wants it to be.  He wants to be the power behind the throne, to ultimately fool his son into thinking that Moe is weak.  As a dunyain, i bet he would be able to get the Cish to change any rule; like Kellhus getting the Gnosis from Akka.  I'm betting on Moe being far and away the most powerful waterbearer!!!

Welcome rnblut@aol.com!!! :)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Bolivar on September 30, 2014, 01:08:15 am
Cememketri claimed the only thing keeping Mallahet from becoming Heresiarch is a law prohibiting non-Kianene from taking the title. I don't remember but I thought it was the Scarlet Spires who underestimated the Cishuarim, as the Saik did not follow them into Fanim land until coming to the aid of Conphas in TTT. I feel like the contrast between how well the Nansur understand the Fanim, compared to the routine ignorance of the rest of the Great Factions, might be at play here, with Bakker telling us Cememketri's estimation would have merit to it. He also expressed that Mallahet was capable of killing everyone at the parley, too.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on September 30, 2014, 01:15:10 am
Cememketri claimed the only thing keeping Mallahet from becoming Heresiarch is a law prohibiting non-Kianene from taking the title. I don't remember but I thought it was the Scarlet Spires who underestimated the Cishuarim, as the Saik did not follow them into Fanim land until coming to the aid of Conphas in TTT. I feel like the contrast between how well the Nansur understand the Fanim, compared to the routine ignorance of the rest of the Great Factions, might be at play here, with Bakker telling us Cememketri's estimation would have merit to it. He also expressed that Mallahet was capable of killing everyone at the parley, too.

Yeah, I remember noting this as well during a re-read of that scene. It's interesting because it really seems like the vast majority of the underestimating comes from the Scarlet Spires, which of course on the first read through they seem like a reliable source (being one of our main insights into sorcery aside from Akka), when in reality it's a lot of ignorance and assumption. I'm trying to remember any significant scenes where the Mandate's opinion on the Cishaurim. I feel like I remember Akka sort of following the same line of thought that the Scarlet Spires have (though perhaps less extreme), but I can't be sure.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on September 30, 2014, 02:40:30 am
Yeah, it's not the Saik that seem to underestimate them but the Scarlet Spires.  It's also kind of hilarious how both in the narrative and in the appendix there's some kind of mention of them thinking that "despite the sometimes unfathomable power of the Psukhe, they all agreed that it was still inferior to the Analogies."  lol

Cememketri does seem to imply that the fact that it's Mallahet means the parlay should be ended immediately such is the danger.  But Xerius wants to go forward and Moe as Mallahet just wants to help Skauras do the skype thing.  What's less clear to me is whether or not Cememketri's estimation of Mallahet's power simply comes from rumors or if it's anything more.  I think we're told that the Said skirmished with the Cishaurim here and there and Mallahet says something at the parlay like 'honor to an old foe,' but I don't think we're ever given a smidgen of evidence that Mallahet has ever taken the field.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wic on September 30, 2014, 02:48:16 am
It stands to reason that the Saik, being part of the empire that has that 'perpetual war and commerce' arrangement with the Kianene, would know something of the politics of the Cish, being as they're interconnected with the religion and politics of the region much more than any of the other Schools.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on September 30, 2014, 03:56:09 am
MOENGHUS IS DUNYAIN---WOULD DEFINITELY BE CONTROLLING THE PERCEPTIONS OF EVERYONE IN THE THREE SEAS!!!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: locke on September 30, 2014, 07:59:10 am
MOENGHUS IS DUNYAIN---WOULD DEFINITELY BE CONTROLLING THE PERCEPTIONS OF EVERYONE IN THE THREE SEAS!!!
This post needs more alcohol, it always helps my moe nerdanels.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on September 30, 2014, 01:13:26 pm
I always got the feeling that much of the information that anyone has, Said or otherwise, is misdirection, especially surrounding Mallahet.
At what point, and from who's POV, do we learn of the Primaries? Moe is not one of the 5 Primary, the most powerful of the Cish, yet also considered the second most powerful? That doesn't match up at all. I don't think the Saik are much more informed than the SS, and Mallahet's alleged power is just that, alleged. There is no proof, and the only thing we seem him cast is Skype, which doesn't impress me. A cute parlor trick to scare the idiot Emperor and Saik, but little more.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on September 30, 2014, 11:45:58 pm
I always got the feeling that much of the information that anyone has, Said or otherwise, is misdirection, especially surrounding Mallahet.
At what point, and from who's POV, do we learn of the Primaries? Moe is not one of the 5 Primary, the most powerful of the Cish, yey also considered the second most powerful? That doesn't match up at all. I don't think the Saik are much more informed than the SS, and Mallahet's alleged power is just that, alleged. There is no proof, and the only thing we seem him cast is Skype, which doesn't impress me. A cute parlor trick to scare the idiot Emperor and Saik, but little more.

Technically, we also see Moe cast Dreams Cants of Far Calling and Badass Blue Fists of Water, but I take your point.

I still want to believe that the Door of Light that is thrown open for the assassination is some meta-Psukhe.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 01, 2014, 12:38:05 pm
That Door has profound implications, and it is the main thorn in the side of my anti-moenghus sentiments. Not sure how what was essentially a transposition spell was accomplished by the Chish, or Moenghus himself.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on October 01, 2014, 07:41:46 pm
@ locke - agree, the booze makes moe theories fall out of head

@ Wilshire - skype, lol!

You guys talking about the Door made me realize that this could prove a superiority of the meta-psukhe over the meta-gnosis.  IF Kellhus really is limited in his warping ability, THEN it would seem that Moenghus has totally exceeded him.  Kellhus can only stride from horizon to horizon, but Moe can warp 3 people from Shimeh to the heart of the Scarlet Spires!!!

...unless moe and company physically walked into the fortress and the door was just for effects/misdirection???  they were let in by Iyokus, scarlet traitor!!!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Triskele on October 02, 2014, 03:59:37 pm
...unless moe and company physically walked into the fortress and the door was just for effects/misdirection???  they were let in by Iyokus, scarlet traitor!!!

Yeah, I suppose it's possible that it wasn't teleportation and was more like "we snuck into the SS compound and then announced our presence with authority." 
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 02, 2014, 04:08:23 pm
Sure, I suppose the SS in their arrogance decided to not have any guards posted, assuming their wards would be sufficient. Protected from metaphysical but completely forgot about physical intrusions. Cish simply walked in, disabling wards as they went. It truly is amazing what the illusion of authority and direction will do to people with low station. Doormen and lowly Javreh, sensing no magical threat, perhaps just let them walk on by uncontested, again assuming the wards would be sufficient.

"The shadow way" or some such that was described when breaking in to save Akka seemed like such a lackluster explanation. Something similar to the above seems more reasonable.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on October 07, 2014, 12:29:22 am
Wonder if Moe could develop a psukhe version of a chorae?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 07, 2014, 12:38:47 pm
Wonder what that would even look like?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wic on October 07, 2014, 01:37:39 pm
I like how mg's style of speculation is primarily taking one thing from the story and putting it with another thing.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on October 07, 2014, 04:29:26 pm
Dunyain breeding program for bashrags!
Serwa and witches form new meta-soul to fight Shauriatus!
Choric underwear!
The Fanim version of narindar!
Sarl is the WLW!
Kellhus is the bounced-soul of Sil!
Yatwer tells Gilgaol the joke about the anus leaf!
Everyone in the Great Ordeal has been replaced by skin spies and none of them realize it!
Esmi becomes even more rich and powerful by marketing various Heron Spear- themed merchandis: the Heron Spare for cart wheels, the Sharon Spear feminine- themed weaponry, and the Heron Spaghetti!
Anagogic theatre!
Gnostic colon cleanse!!!
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 07, 2014, 06:00:02 pm
I like how mg's style of speculation is primarily taking one thing from the story and putting it with another thing.
It sometimes yields interesting results. Probably fueled a bit by Madness suggesting that there are unconsidered combinations the community has yet to puzzle out.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on October 07, 2014, 06:42:02 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Personally I find either of the two above explanations unhelpful.

For lockesnow's, that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because it exists in your mind doesn't mean it is manifest. The manifestation of a point that occupies no space wouldn't interact with the world. Even things like "point particles" in physics, a basic concept used to describe introductory physics, is just a theoretical/mathematical construct. It doesn't really exist, but it makes things a whole lot simpler.
Or a dirac delta, a curve with infinite height and an integral value = 1, is a close approximation of something like the "point that occupies no space" but again its a mathematical construct to simplify problems such that they can be solved without unnecessarily difficult math. Though useful and fair at approximating behaviors of certain ideal systems, such a thing isn't real. There is no such thing as a perfect valve.

Actually, that is a really good example of what the above mentioned "point" would end up looking like. The tool would be infinitely long and come to an infinitely sharp point that took up no space at the tip. But as infinity is a rather difficult place to get to, a tool made like that would be decidedly unwieldy :P


And Meyna's, I guess I just don't believe that Shae solved string theory and was applying it. Rape aliens and immortality and magic yes, solved string theory... nah.



Pretty much by definition, it doesn't exist if it doesn't occupy a point in space. Not to be confused with not having mass, or volume, like sound and light, and neutrinos can't be "captured" since they just float through shit whenever they want. Those things still occupy a point in space.

Though, another thought just came to me, Shae's key to the glamor could have been akin to some extremely focused beam of magic or some such idea. Like a laser, but with magic. The glamor is magical, so it would make sense if something magical broke it. Could have been more like finding its resonance frequency and emitting a "magic wave" that just amplified it and... boom, almighty glamor shakes itself apart.......


I'm well0over a year late here, but this is a certified BOSS post. It managed to make some sense to my mathematically-disabled mind.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 08, 2014, 12:49:31 am
Haha thanks FB, I appreciate it. It seems my comments earlier in the thread went largely unnoticed/uncommented.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on October 08, 2014, 01:23:00 am
Yatwer will show up again like she did when she gave Sorweel the chorae pouch. This time she'll give him the Heron Spear. To kill Kellhus
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on October 08, 2014, 02:18:44 pm
There's a nifty idea. The Gods hording worldly treasures and dispensing them as gifts as they please.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on January 14, 2015, 11:18:29 pm
this is how i imagine gnostic sorcery looks, a clip from Resident Evil movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8gfGhVL3qs
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on January 18, 2015, 04:37:31 am
Lol pretty much. Just a lot more complex beam/wave patterns and a lot faster.

I actually saw that movie in theaters, and was young enough that the scene creeped me out the hell out.

EDIT: This duel from Harry Potter (of all things) actually made me think of a lot of different sorcery from TSA, especially Voldemort's beam thing (Psukhe water) and the dragonhead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URbvT_pkAjI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URbvT_pkAjI)
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on January 19, 2015, 02:47:10 pm
Yeah, its easy to see the analogies there, and some Psuke.

The Gnosis would wipe the floor with Voldemort or Dumbledore though.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Garet Jax on January 19, 2015, 03:12:35 pm
The Gnosis would wipe the floor with Voldemort or Dumbledore though.

Not sure why, but this made me grin from ear to ear.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: SilentRoamer on January 19, 2015, 04:19:42 pm
The Gnosis is pretty much the most badass sorcery in a lot of series I have seen.

The One Power from Wheel of Time rivals it - if only because of its complexity.

Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on January 19, 2015, 05:10:57 pm
Making it math/logic based if pretty unique, since most sorceries in fantasy would fall into the anagogic realm. Since its defined as stronger than the anagogic sorceries, its almost necessarily stronger than most other magic systems.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 23, 2015, 06:39:58 pm
I happen to think that Bakker has done an amazing job setting up the metaphysics of sorcery in his world as it is both coherent and .  The idea that sorcery, like practically everything else in Earwa, turns on meaning and either utilizes pure abstractions (Gnosis), metaphor and analogy (Anagnosis), or what Bakker in an interview called 'the performative kernel of meaning' (Psûkhe).  This means that it is the maintaining of inutteral meanings ultimately that powers all sorcery, the said sorcery being of a power equal to the difficulty of maintaining the meaning to some degree.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Aural on February 23, 2015, 11:31:18 pm
Just a question, in AE was it Kellhus’ claim that he changed things so that sorcerers are no longer damned or did he just reveal that they weren’t damned to begin with?
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: The Sharmat on February 23, 2015, 11:51:02 pm
He rewrote scripture. The rules of Inri Sejenus and earlier prophets were the rules that applied at their time but their teachings outlived their usefulness, and Kellhus was sent to amend them for the new age.

This is Zaudunyani scripture, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: MG on February 25, 2015, 04:11:07 pm
me too - i've never read of a magic system as cool as Bakker's.  the mechanism just isn't that developed in many books.  off the top of my head

harry potter - point wand, speak latin, sometimes do a hand motion
lord of the rings - nothing, it's just elf uber-craftmanship and the occasional neato burning pine cone
johnathan strange - here there are some cool bits about specific incantations, but nothing like Bakker's stuff (although i wouldn't change that about js&mr norrell)

i can't think of any comparable magic systems.  i keep hearing Sanderson does cool stuff, but i haven't gotten around to him
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 07:37:33 pm
Most magics are of the 'speak word, do magic' type.

Eragon (Inheritance Cycle) - same thing, though with the addition of magic = natural strength, which makes doing thinking through spells and phrasing them important. Like, a spell for killing someone by severing neurons, rather than choking them. A pretty well fleshed out system, though plenty of vagueness as well.

Drizzt / Forgotten Realms / D&D : Memorize spell, speak words, magic.

i still think that most are anagogic-type sorcery. Want fire? Speak Fire/dragon breath/etc.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 09:29:53 pm
Wheel of Time has a fairly fleshed out magic system but I'm hesitant to recommend it.