The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:11 am

Title: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:11 am
Quote from: Octavian
I just finished a reread of the first series I and I have to say that I found the Cishaurim to be more interesting this time around. Notably in the raw power that they yield. The Scarlet Spires thought them to be less powerful than Anagogic Schools but the battle for Shimeh proved that to be otherwise and I totally forgot about the way that they assassinated the former Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires.

With that said, I am surprised that the Probability Trance did not show Kellhus a way to implement them in TTT. More maybe it did but was not beneficial? I understand that there was no way to keep them alive being that they were the priests of a heretic religion, but the fact that their sorcery was markless is something that captivates me.

We know that some gods at least war against Kellhus, yet the Cishaurim bare no mark and it was never stated that the gods were blind to them as they are to the no god. Yet they were not actively against them, even though they took away many of their followers. Does they attest to the rightness of Fanim? If so, what does it mean now that it is gone. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:17 am
Quote from: Callan S.
I think, circumspectly, it's said that the gods are blind to the Cish. Essentially the gods cannot tell the difference between the emotional outburst of a Cish using magic, and the gods own emotional outbursts/the world. Maybe someone with a higher lore stat will be able to correct me on that?

Much like his father, I suspect Kellhus's store of 'waters' is low. And the fact it's not all that compatable with his operating system means he didn't want to rely on it (too much a variable).
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:22 am
Quote from: sciborg2
Who knows the role Meppa plays in the TTT? ;-)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:26 am
Quote from: The Sharmat
I'm not convinced Moenghus' aquifer didn't run far deeper than he let Kellhus believe. It could be propaganda, but Mallahet was apparently quite a big deal.

This metaphor is getting strained.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:31 am
Quote from: Sideris
He was well respected, if I recall, among the Cish. Yet watched at with a wary eye. He didn't have the full capability to play them like fiddles without his eyes. He may have been lying, but he most likely isn't such a beast with the water. But he had more than enough spry energy (combo'd with the waters) to wipe the floor with the skin spies. The Cish fascinated me since I started reading the books. Hell, I half thought Xin would receive the waters (in a somewhat typical high fantasy mindset at the time, which was odd, because I'd not had a flash of that old thinking in years).
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:36 am
Quote from: Octavian
In regards to Big Moe's power with The Water I find myself caught somewhere between what the Scarlet Spires believe it to be and what Kellhus said they actually were. I don't have the books on hand, but I remember him wanting Cnaiur to do something that seemed like it would have saved him, or at least he was wanting to try it.

Also the entire time he was speaking with Kellhus, Kellhus thought him to be without his snakes, but when he stabbed him, they came out of the walls. What did he gain by not having them on his person?

@Callan

I can understand them being blind to the Cish, but did they not sense that they suddenly started to lose a ton of followers who are now actively worshipping something else? The Fanim came to dominate a huge part of the Three Seas.

Also, during my reread I totally forgot that the No God was described by Kellhus as he was hanging from the tree. Or was that something else?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:43 am
Quote from: Sideris
I always took that as some trippy-ass vision brought on by delusional horror, but knowing Bakker, it may have been real. Kellhus had been going a bit mad ever since he left Ishual.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:48 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Kellhus says that Cishaurim rely on emotion, Bakker says Cishaurim rely on intention. 

If Kellhus is right, Moenghus is weak in the water.  If Bakker is right, no Dunyain should have trouble changing the intention of their utterals/inutterals (or whatever the Cish equivalent is for water) and Moe should have mastered/invented the Meta-water.

We should also consider that Moe has probably interrogated Seswatha as well, as it would be easy for him to capture a mandati and then persuade it to let him speak to the homonculus.  Moe doesn't need to have ever used the gnosis, but the knowledge would be helpful, as would the knowledge Seswatha has of the apocalypse.  That knowledge would be essential to his probability trance and in understanding the skin spies, so I can't imagine he'd leave that possibility unexplored.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:53 am
Quote from: Madness
I think assuming that Moenghus captured a Mandate Schoolman is a little presumptuous, lockesnow.

Also, Octavian, I would argue that Moenghus doesn't have his snakes until the end because he knew exactly how every moment of their interactions would unfold up until that point.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:10:57 am
Quote from: Sideris
Moenghus, after all, did have thirty years in the world of Men to know how all of this would unfold and machinate as he willed.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:03 am
Quote from: Octavian
But he did not. The Probability Trance failed him as to what would happen to Kellhus after he was crucified. He knew Kellhus would come to him, but did not know the state he would be in and thought him bat shit crazy when Kellhus told him that he heard voices.

As stated, Moe had 30 years in the world, 30 years of structuring TTT. I don't know, it just seems weird to me that we did not come to the conclusion that Kellhus want see that he would eventually side with the Consult. Or maybe he did expect Kellhus to see that and thought that he would join him?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:08 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Presumably Moe had reached the limits of what he was capable of within the structures of the Cish, within the strictures of being on the fanim side of things.  Within the strictures of disfiguring his body as a scylvendi.  That's why he needed/summoned Kellhus and didn't send Kellhus straight to Shimeh, but diverted him through an inrithi path.  Note, that Moe tried to educate Kellhus with visions of wars and histories but the dunyain all dismissed all those dreams, other than the 'send me my son' command.

It's a pretty big assumption to think he needed Kell because he had reached limits, though. one I think that is wrong.

Crackpot, was Moe out of sight, but up in the Demua mountains when he summoned Kellhus?  No Sranc bothered Kellhus--which is insane considering the hundreds of miles he traversed.  He managed to get to the outer edges of Atraithau country and even landed in Leweth's lap--almost as though he were being herded.   Then he was herded directly to Cnaiur's settlement, probably by Sranc under Moe's control. 

It could even be argued that Moe had engineered the Scylvendi/inrithi battle so that Kellhus' path would be even more clear.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:13 am
Quote from: Madness
In The World Conspires thread we were discussing the coincidences, a little, that led Kellhus to Skiotha's mound. That aside.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"
"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."
Scrutiny. Calculation.
"So you have grasped it."
"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

Then there is the snake issue. Why would Moenghus not have his snakes, if not due to premeditation?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:19 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Octavian
@Callan

I can understand them being blind to the Cish, but did they not sense that they suddenly started to lose a ton of followers who are now actively worshipping something else? The Fanim came to dominate a huge part of the Three Seas.

Also, during my reread I totally forgot that the No God was described by Kellhus as he was hanging from the tree. Or was that something else?
Yeah, well that's fiddley. People can be damned for not believing the right things, but unlike a sorcerer, they don't get a mark upon them for doing it. So you could be damned for following Fane (I don't know if the worlds characters are, just saying you could), but as usual show no mark for that 'false' belief. So perhaps Cish are damned, but not sorcerers mark damned, as they are free of that.

'damned' being shorthand for captured by a giant torture machine, I'll note in my quest for meaninglessness, lol...... ...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:25 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Madness
It's pretty explicit from the texts that Shauriatas is surviving Grandmaster of the Mengaecca from 1123 when the School is outlawed because "Shaeonanra, then Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, had discovered a catastrophic means to undo the scriptural damnation of sorcerers." (p.464, TTT LE)

Shaeonanra becomes known as Shauriatas, Cheater of the Gods, some four hundred years later.

Also, it's interesting to note that the Inchoroi themselves are responsible for the belief in the "scriptural damnation of sorcerers." And Nonmen, for that matter. Though the Judging Eye suggests that Achamian is damned - whether that is because of his sorcery or not, the text is ambiguous.

This from my post in the How Strong Is the Tekne (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/how-strong-is-the-tekne-t1188690-10.html) thread. My bolding for context here.

I think that this is something Bakker has just slipped in subversively. Though the ideas that Sorcery and the Nonmen are damned have drastically shaped human society in Earwa, even our perspectives and experiences of the books, the Inchoroi were the ones who added these imperatives to the dogma when inscribing Mankind's beliefs on the Tusk.

Perhaps sorcerers weren't ever even damned? Unless, of course, they enslaved a Ciphrang.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:36 am
Quote from: sciborg2
The Tusk added a call to kill the Nonmen, but did it add the damnation of Sorcerers?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:41 am
Quote from: Madness
Thanks for catching that. Definitely retracted.

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
When the Inchoroi began using Men to master the Aporos and produce the first Chorae, they gave the first sorcery-destroying spheres to the Sranc, only to discover that the creatures were far too reckless. Having fixed and morbid habits of ornamentation, the Sranc rarely valued the spheres, and were thus prone to lose them.

So the Inchoroi began giving them to the Men of Eärwa, hoping to incite them to rebellion. But the Halaroi had no stomach for rousing a feared, and most importantly, absent master, and so rendered the deadly gifts to their Nonmen overlords. The Inchoroi then looked to Eänna, where the Men were both more fierce and more naive. They gave the Chorae to the Five Tribes as gifts, and to one tribe, the black-haired Ketyai, they gave a great tusk inscribed with their hallowed laws and most revered stories–as well as one devious addition: the divine imperative to invade the ‘Land of the Felled Sun’ and hunt down and exterminate the ‘False Men.’

The Nonmen only rebuilt and reinforced the Gates after the first great migratory invasions generations later.

That's from Pat's Interview.

You know though... I wouldn't put it past Bakker...

Edit: I believe Bakker made a mistake in this interview. TTT Glossary does say that Nonmen produce the first Chorae for the Inchoroi, right?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:47 am
Quote from: Octavian
@Madness

Yep, it says something along the lines of how they turned to the Nonmen users of the Aporos to make the Chorae because they knew they were shunned. Then they used the the first Chorae at the Black Furnace Plain.

ETA
I'm not certain a mistake was made however, I think he was saying that as of that time the Nonmen had turned to Men to make them instead of Nonmen. Maybe all of the Nonmen Aporos Sorcerers had been killed of by then for their betrayals, or maybe they just needed more made and Men were easy labor.

The Breaking of the Gates happened way after the first Chorae were made.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:52 am
Quote from: Curethan
The nonmen knew that sorcery caused damnation before the inchies.  The glossary further explains that certain types of sorcery (like the aporos) were proscribed.
Regarding Moe and his snakes in Kellhus' interveiw, I believe he wasn't wearing them because he had them positioned around the groto for surveilence.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:11:57 am
Quote from: Madness
I need to go back and read some of that Glossary again. It was a serious slip on my part.

Though, I'll obviously have that framework dogging my perspective for awhile.

This makes me wonder about Titirga and the Inward.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:14:44 am
Quote from: SkiesOfAzel
I believe that Earwa follows many Gnosticism principals. Thus I think that the Cishaurim blind their persons to separate themselves from the imperfect physical world and better see the ideal world. To be more precise I think that we have a case of Mitigated Duality, with the Solitary God (which I believe is also the Mystery that the NonMen worshiped) been the Godhead, the God of Gods in the role of the demiurge and the Gods(Cyfrang) in the roles of Archons. In Mitigated Duality, the demiurge is usually believed to be corrupt/evil like the world he created, and the Godhead represents goodness. In this light, Cishaurim are agents of God’s will and that’s why they aren’t damned.

  A thought that just came into my mind is that since the Scylvendi also believe that the world is a lie and they worship the No-God, maybe he is connected to the Godhead somehow.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:14:49 am
Quote from: Madness
In light of Meppa is X speculation, I thought I'd explore some old threads again. Plus, it is neat to see the forum growing and its pedigree.

I, too, have wondered about the connection between Gnosticism and Earwa, SOA. Bakker has been approached by many individuals over the year who seem to think he's hit gold on certain occult metaphors as well - claims he has distanced himself from.

Also, certain posts by Octavian, Sharmat, and Sideris early in this thread remind me of a particular discrepancy in the series.

Any Schoolman, or secular perspective in the know, who provides us perspective on Cishaurim seem to universally acknowledge Mallahet's reputation of power and status. Based on social and cultural interaction among the Three Seas for... 20ish years, at least, solidifying this notoriety. Yet we're supposed to go along with Kellhus' interpretation of the Cishaurim as correct simply because Moenghus doesn't contradict him when Kellhus recounts his inferences to his Father?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:14:54 am
Quote from: Wilshire
I think so. Just because Kellhus isn't blind doesn't me he can't see farther.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:14:59 am
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus has no direct evidence of Moenghus' sorcerous ability, neh?

In fact, if we ignored only Kellhus' perspective in this instance, blotted that aspect in the mind mapping of ideas, all other evidence suggests Moenghus is all-powerful among the Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:03 am
Quote from: Curethan
Lol.  Maybe it goes deeper.  Mallahet is a powerful Cish and Moenghus is the sneaky weakling that Kellhus postulates... but they are never seen in the same place ;)

(i.e. he was playing dual roles)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:08 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Moe's self description as told to Kell is too convincing me to think he is something other. I just can't see it.
Perhaps I've too much sight to see.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:13 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
We do get an interior glimpse into the Fanim world in The Aspect-Emperor, Tattooed Hand. Like I say, in the historical narrative sections, I resort to quasi-racist cliches and types, both heroic and otherwise, trying to mix up assumptions, and to indirectly show how arbitrary and self-serving they actually are, even if they seem 'fair and balanced' to those sharing the selfsame prejudices.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004
They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise.

I've actually structured the different sorceries of Earwa along the lines of different philosophical theories of language. For the Cishaurim, it's the THOUGHT, and not the utterance that is key, as it is in traditional sorcery. The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:19 am
Quote from: Curethan
First quote reveals the plot hole regarding skin spies, Moe and the Cish.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:24 am
Quote from: Madness
Well, we don't have actually have reason to believe that Kellhus is right when he infers that Moenghus the Elder recognized the skin-spies through vocal discrepancies.

It could simply be, as others have suggested, that the Consult never successfully infiltrated Fanim Kian. Fane, Third Sight, Skin-spies, all recent innovations as far the Earwa goes. It's likely neither Kellhus nor the Consult had any reason to assume that the Cishaurim could see souls.

Perhaps, when the Cishaurim find the Skin-Spies with Moenghus, is also the first time the Consult attempted infiltration.

You know, its interesting but much of PON turns on the Consult and Kellhus not understanding the Cishaurim. Kellhus might have explained some of their sorceries' metaphysics but how could he assume the requisite dividends? The Consult couldn't probably even have guessed.

I never like doing this explaining for an author but the whole Cishaurim remain to be borne out, I'm sure.

Honestly, my favorite quote of all the ones I discovered is this gem about Anarcane Ground & God's Song - I put it in Sorcery[/b] (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/sorcery-t1222441.html): "One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible."

Reminds me of the analogy Feanor brought up about the Music in Tolkien's work... This is the first and only place I've ever seen God's Song as a Pronoun :shock: .
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:31 am
Quote from: Curethan
The Consult's info on the Cish discovering their skin spies lines up with Moe joining their ranks.
The Cish have been around for hundreds of years before that.
And he has those two held prisoner under Kudyea at the end of TTT.
Aurang reflects on how precious their stocks of skin spies are, I doubt they would just keep sending them in if all Cish could spot em easy peasy.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:37 am
Quote from: Triskele
The beginning of the third quote is talking about Chrorae, yeah?  If so, that seems to confirm or nearly confirm that Cish do not salt like other sorcerers do.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:41 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Not only that Triskele, but there's a suggestion that if the THOUGHT of the Cishaurim caster is sufficient to encompass the negation of the chorae, then the chorae could be overcome within the frame of the thought.  IN other words a hybrid of aporos and Psukhe that would overwhelm the aporos of the chorae with an inverse-aporos Psukhe thought.

In order to do this, the psukhe user would presumably have to know the inscriptions that define the Chorae.  And then Cnaiur shows up with a chorae that Moenghus probably knows particularly well if he ever looked at it, a perfect setup for him to overcome a very specific chorae--as Kellhus never did, since he was mostly incurious, seemingly, when he examined Cnaiur's chorae.

If Moenghus ever reverse engineered the aporos from examining Cnaiur's chorae before he ever encountered the Cishaurim...

And if it's the Thought that counts in the Psukhe, and note that Bakker doesn't say emotion, then Moenghus could have indeed been very powerful within the magic.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:46 am
Quote from: Triskele
And is Psukhe equals psyche then thought seems better than emotion, but if Psukhe equals spirit than it's less clear.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:50 am
Quote from: Callan S.
I think Cish just use magic in a way that's like a cant of compulsion - the god just thinks it wills it.

Though I think in terms of who are the better guys, the Kianne and the Cish are the better guys. The series is a bit like if the story was told from Saurons side of the deal.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:54 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Callan S.
I think Cish just use magic in a way that's like a cant of compulsion - the god just thinks it wills it.

Though I think in terms of who are the better guys, the Kianne and the Cish are the better guys. The series is a bit like if the story was told from Saurons side of the deal.

haha yeah ive been getting that feeling lately as well
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:15:59 am
Quote from: Triskele
Same here.  I think Meppa is going to be the conduit through which The Solitary God is awoken, and He's going to send an entire ocean of Water through Meppa to destroy Mog.  Meppa is a clue for Mecca which is where the most of the God's Water would be if it was our Middle East.



OK, I don't really believe this will happen, but I also sort of share the "Cish are good somehow" or less bad viewpoint. 

Something about how they were but wiped out and are returning...and how it's been on the periphery...love the idea about story being told from other side.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:03 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote
Something about how they were but wiped out and are returning...and how it's been on the periphery...love the idea about story being told from other side.
OK, I'm calling it now. The books making up the third trilogy of tSA will be titled A New Hope, The (Kellian) Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Cishaurim. :P
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:07 am
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Triskele
OK, I don't really believe this will happen, but I also sort of share the "Cish are good somehow" or less bad viewpoint. 

I think you might be onto something here. I concur.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:12 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Another Cishaurim-related RSB post from Zombie Three Seas that (AFAIK) hasn't yet been reposted here for discussion:
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The idea is that sorcery is primarily discursive, and as such, tied to the ability to see (there's a long tradition in continental philosophy critiquing the centrality of visual metaphors in Western philosophical discourse). The psukhe, on the other hand, is primarily emotive. So the idea would be that where sorcery captures fragments of the God's intellect, the psukhe expresses instants of the God's heart. Since the former is cognitive, which is to say, admits of being more or less true, it necessarily falls short. Since the latter is not cognitive, it is indistiguishable from the God's own world.
I'm not sure I like the implication, to be honest. It sort of sounds like RSB is trying to say that emotion is somehow more objective than cognition, but I don't think that makes much sense...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:18 am
Quote from: Madness
Lol, the modern study of emotions practically begins with emotions being specific patterned responses - especially basic ones... biased & heuristic.

I've long +1'd Righteous Cishaurim. Its a tasty perspective - PON becomes Achamian, Cnaiur, and Esmenet at the heart of the First Holy War by the Damned... fighting to damn themselves.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:23 am
Quote from: Triskele
Quote
I'm not sure I like the implication, to be honest. It sort of sounds like RSB is trying to say that emotion is somehow more objective than cognition, but I don't think that makes much sense...


Hmmm...maybe you can square it by thinking of a world in which The God is real...


Sorcery messes w/ the God's reality, so it can be "wrong" even though is powerful and can be proven false or whatever.

The instances of the God's heart, in this world, are right even if they're accessed by the emotive.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:28 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
PON becomes Achamian, Cnaiur, and Esmenet at the heart of the First Holy War by the Damned... fighting to damn themselves.

By extension, the people of the Great Ordeal fighting for their right to eternal damnation. What a horrible thing to happen, I think its possible. The entire world damned at the hands of the anti-christ.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:32 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Triskele
Hmmm...maybe you can square it by thinking of a world in which The God is real...

Sorcery messes w/ the God's reality, so it can be "wrong" even though is powerful and can be proven false or whatever.

The instances of the God's heart, in this world, are right even if they're accessed by the emotive.
That doesn't help, I'm afraid. You're merely begging the question, as far as I can see.

I can sort of see an argument that language is only, at best, a symbolic approximation of reality, while emotion is experienced directly... but that sounds far too vague and superficial for Bakker, as well as not obviously connecting to what he actually said.

Hmm...

The Mark, as I understand it, is caused by the gap between the sorcerer's recollection of God and God's objective nature. A language-based sorcery is like trying to describe a memory in words; it seems obvious that such a description will be incomplete or inaccurate.

The Psukhe, then, is like remembering the emotions that attach to the memory, without any of the niggling 'factual' details.

Let's take the example of one's first kiss. An Anagogic sorcerer would recall it as a series of rather trite similes* ("Hair as black as night", "lips as red as berries", etc.). A Gnostic would recall the girl's vital statistics, the temperature of her skin, and the frequency of her heartbeat (now I'm thinking of this guy (http://standpointmag.co.uk/files/u28/sherlock_holmes_bbc_tv_2.jpg) for some reason). A Cishaurim doesn't care about all that; he just remembers the emotions he felt.

That all seems to make sense, right?

The problem is that we don't actually recall emotions more objectively/accurately than we do all those other details. The idea that we do is actually just the sort of comforting, feel-good delusion RSB normally disdains.

It's all rather frustrating. :evil:

[size=85]* Yeah, that's right: I'm belittling people who rely on analogies as part of an analogy.[/size] ;)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:39 am
Quote from: Madness
To be honest, Duskweaver, the analogies have always made sense to me. They've just never formed a coherent narrative in my mind until I read the God's Song quote.

And really, though you're analogies expand nicely on the fiction, I still don't really understand how the parts fit some kind of narrative whole.

Especially, linguistic analogies... as all sorceries would then have an inutteral component, which apparently only the Gnosis does - for we always speak with two tongues, one heard in the mouth and another unheard in the mind.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:43 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
which apparently only the Gnosis does [have inutterals]
I don't think this is actually the case. Do you have the quote handy? Because I suspect people have been misinterpreting.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:16:48 am
Quote from: Madness
Nope, sorry, Duskweaver. However, here are my thoughts though, relevant quotes are probably in TWP when Achamian is captured by the Spires:

The Gnosis is only safeguarded by two things:

Firstly, the memories of Seswatha's life, however the experience of the Dreams scar brain or psyche, are enough to overshadow any mortal torture that any Mandate Schoolman has so far undergone for the Gnosis.

1a - Seems to extend to the fact that Seswatha bars Achamian from even speaking the Gnostic Cants to Kellhus, somehow.

Secondly, and bar misinterpretation, the much stronger safeguard, is that no-one living in the Three-Seas, excepting the Mandate realize that there is an inutteral at all.

But what's your fuel, Duskweaver? I'm curious. You're the only one I can remember throwing up this specific objection.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:00 am
Quote from: Triskele
I can't say for certain, but I believe that the anagogic sorcerers use inutterals as well but haven't unlocked as precise logic or meaning w/ their language or something...

and the Cish, as far as we know, use neither spoken nor unuttered words.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:05 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
My understanding is that both Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery use inutterals. You therefore cannot learn either simply by listening to a sorcerer canting. But, in general, no schoolman would ever bother trying to learn the Anagogis that way, since all the Anagogic schools use pretty much the same cants already (since the Anagogis is based on the ancient shamanistic magic passed down orally since before Men entered Earwa, according to RSB on Zombie Three Seas, and is therefore near-universal among Men). If you're a sorcerer of the Imperial Saik, there's nothing new you could learn from a sorcerer of the Vokalati, for example, even without the inutteral problem.

One possible exception (that proves the rule) would be the Anagogic Daimos, which seems to be exclusive to the Scarlet Spires. Other schoolmen cannot learn the Daimos by 'overhearing' a Daimotic sorcerer canting any more than they could learn the Gnosis in the same manner.

Also, if it were possible for one of the Few to learn sorcery just by listening to a sorcerer canting, there'd be a lot more wizards (and witches) in Earwa.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:11 am
Quote from: Triskele
I'm reading a book called "No god but God" by Reza Aslan.  It's non-fiction on the origins, evolution and future of Islam. 

It's a really good primer on the subject if you don't know much about it, but I digress.

Here's an interesting quote:

"As the executor of God's will, the Imam is, like the Prophet, infallible and sinless, for 'sin would destroy the validity of the call.'  Consequently, the Shi'ah developed the view that the Imams were created not from dust, as other humans were, but from eternal light."

It could be nothing, but it also could relate to what happens when hit w/ Chorae as the Cish are kind of like the high priests of the Fanim faith as Imams are kind of like the high priests of Islam.

Another interesting quote:

There is talk of a hidden Imam who left the world to visit some transcendent place to eventually return:


"Some traditions predicted that the coming of the Mahdi will be portended by civil wars and false prophets, earthquakes and the abolition of Islamic law.  According to fourteenth century historian and philosopher Ibn Khaldun, the Mahdi will either directly precede Jesus, or both messiahs will descend to earth together and join forces to kill the Antichrist."

That all could be nothing, but it seemed worth sharing.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:17 am
Quote from: Madness
+1 for Culture. I always envisioned Earwa like an inversion of Faiths - Islamic or Hindu philosophy clothed in Catholic material and vice versa.

Both quotes offer pleasant insight.

By the way - Huge +1 for the thought that the Antichrist is so terrible that the Mahdi and Jesus would join forces :shock: . Epic!
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:22 am
Quote from: Triskele
Yeah, that's a frightening thought.  I don't necessarily think that's what's going on here, but it's fun to speculate. 

OK - From just a bit later in the book in a chapter on Sufism:



Quote
Orphaned at a young age, Rabia became a slave and the sexual property of her master.  Yet, she longed throughout her life to experience mystical union with God, sometimes going without sleep for weeks at a time in order to fast, pray, and meditate on the movement of the universe.  It was during one of these nightly meditations that her master first noticed a blinding nimbus of light shining above her head, illuminating the entire house.  Terrified, he immediately set Rabia free, allowing her to go into the desert to pursue the Way.  There, in the wilderness, Rabia achieved fana, becoming the first, though not only, female sufi master."

My bolding.

Then:

Quote
Once the veil of traditional dualities has been lifted, the ego obliterated, and the ruh allowed to absorb the qalb, the disciple finally achieves fana, which, as mentioned, is best translated as "ecstatic self-annihilation."  It is here, at the end of the Way, that the truth of Divine Unity of all creation if revealed and the Sufi realized that, in the words of Shah Angha, "the brook, the river, the drop, the sea, the bubble, all in one voice say: Water we are, water."

My bolding again.  The author describes "ruh" as similar to the Holy Spirit or Chi, so that fits a bit w/ the psukhe.

And again:


Quote
By the sheer power of their spiritual charisma, the Pirs gather disciples in order to impart to them the esoteric knowledge Sufis call erfan.  Like the Greek term gnosis, erfan refers to a heightened level of knowing in which one is able to intuit ultimate reality.  However, erfan is a nonintellectual, nonrational knowing that in the words of Shah Angha, the forty-second Pir of the Oveyssi Order, can be achieved only "through self-discipline and purification, in which case there is no need to become involved in the method of reasoning." 

Author's italics, my bolding.


ETA:  and yeah, I was wondering if "fana" has any connection to "Fane."  Who knows...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:40 am
Quote from: Madness
Bakker is a very well read person, Trisk.

When I encounter things like "Like the Nonmen term gnosis, Psukhe refers to a heightened level of knowing in which one is able to intuit ultimate reality. However, Psukhe is a nonintellectual, nonrational knowing that in the words of Shah Angha, the forty-second High Heresiarch of the Cishaurim, can be achieved only "through self-discipline and purification, in which case there is no need to become involved in the method of reasoning," I really have to wonder...

+1 for Connotations, though.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:47 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
"Yes, I will be thy priest, and build a fane
In some untrodden region of my mind,"
- John Keats, in a poem called (guess what!) Ode to Psyche.

('Fane' just means 'temple', from the Latin 'fanum'.)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:17:57 am
Quote from: Madness
Just found this, pertains to our discussion, Duskweaver. It's getting blurry but I think I probably quoted this in sorcery. My bolding.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:02 am
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?
I think I'm going to have to reread Akka and Kellhus' conversations on the nature of sorcery before commenting any further.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:06 am
Quote from: Madness
Sorry just rushing out to school, I'll post the whole quote tonight, but you should also check out: "'Preserving and expressing the pure modalities of meaning,' he continued, 'this is the heart of all sorcery...'" (TTT, p174)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:11 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Just found this, pertains to our discussion, Duskweaver. It's getting blurry but I think I probably quoted this in sorcery. My bolding.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

The only conceptual leap I see is the innutteral. Anagogis would have staple metaphors and analogies, that sorcerers can wield, like the Dragon's Head (sp?), but they depend on fixed meanings whereas abstraction in the Gnosis is fixed by the innutteral?

I thought abstraction referred to calculus or advanced science, more or less. while Anagogis is metaphorical and analogy.  Think of how algebra makes things more abstract, and e or i more abstract still.  And that abstraction leads to greater precision.

Angogis = horsepower = analogy
gnosis = miles per hour = abstract
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:18 am
Quote from: Madness
Gawd... this is getting complicated. I was about to post the entirety of the quote above but...

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. 'And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.'

'There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key'" [Achamian] (TTT, p175).

So the Scarlet Spires torture Mandate schoolmen specifically for the inutterals and this is where the first safeguard of the "Seswathan homunculus within them" (p174) ultimately protects the Mandate Gnosis?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:22 am
Quote from: Athjeäri
Speaking to this, the Anagogis sorcery has trouble with analogy, it is somehow incomplete.  Anagogis sorcerers want to produce dragon's fire, but cannot produce the essence of this fire without first producing the dragon and its maw.

The Gnosis is able to, with their metaphysics and inutterals, capture the essence of dragon's fire (or any desired cant) and therefore create the burning of dragon's fire without having to focus any attention on the dragon's head. 

This is me jumping in late and having quickly read the previous posts, but I believe the difference between Anagogis and Gnosis is one captures the essence of meaning (Gnosis), while the other must rely on rough analogies that don't really grasp the meaning or essence of the sorcerous cant (Anagogis).

Essentially, I think the Anagogis and Gnosis can best be described as the competing philosophies of meaning from Plato and Aristotle (abbreviated, of course, and in a nut shell).

I'll post my thoughts on the Cishaurim in a minute.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:28 am
Quote from: Madness
No worries about jumping in late - jump in at all, Athjeari. For the most part, we've let tangents linger, if only because of the thoughts and conversations they inspire. If something peaks your interest enough, start a new thread kind of thing.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:33 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: lockesnow
I thought abstraction referred to calculus or advanced science, more or less. while Anagogis is metaphorical and analogy.  Think of how algebra makes things more abstract, and e or i more abstract still.  And that abstraction leads to greater precision.

Angogis = horsepower = analogy
gnosis = miles per hour = abstract

I think the initial wikipedia entries sum it up pretty well.
Quote
Abstraction is a process by which concepts are derived from the usage and classification of literal ("real" or "concrete") concepts, first principles, or other methods. "An abstraction" is the product of this process – a concept that acts as a super-categorical noun for all subordinate concepts, and connects any related concepts as a group, field, or category.

Quote
Analogy (from Greek ἀναλογία, analogia, "proportion") is a cognitive process of transferring information or meaning from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from one particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general.

Perhaps the Psukhe can be veiwed in terms of derivition of meaning via emotive intuition.  The inuteral is thus intuited.

Quote
Intuition is a priori knowledge or experiential belief characterized by its immediacy. Beyond this, the nature of intuition is debated. Roughly speaking, there are two main views. They are:

    Intuitions are a priori. This view holds that distinctions are to be made between various sorts of intuition, roughly corresponding to their subject matter (see George Bealer). The only intuitions that are relevant in analytic philosophy are 'rational' intuitions. These are intellectual seemings that something is necessarily the case. They are directed exclusively towards statements that make some kind of necessity claim. For example, a rational intuition is what occurs when it seems to us that a mathematical statement (e.g. 2+2=4) must be true. Intuitions as this view characterizes them are to be distinguished from beliefs, since we can hold beliefs which are not intuitive, or have intuitions for propositions that we know to be false.

        Intuitions are a species of belief, and based ultimately in experience. This view holds that intuitions are not especially different from beliefs, although they appear subjectively to be more unrevisable than other beliefs. Unlike the previous view, these intuitions are liable to differ between social groups. Evidence for this is shown in various psychological studies (e.g. the one by Stich, Weinburg and Nichols)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:40 am
Quote from: coobek
So if psukhe is from intuition and it seems intuition is, kind of, darkness that comes before - it should be extra powerful.

More than 9.000 mark for sure :)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:44 am
Quote from: Curethan
Can't remember where we were discussing the identity of the Possesors of the Third Sight, but I just realized there is an entry in TTT glossary that makes it sound fairly straight forward.

Quote from: TTT glossary
Possessors of the Third Sight
An alternate name for the Cishaurim, so called because of their reputed ability to see without their eyes.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:50 am
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Curethan
Can't remember where we were discussing the identity of the Possesors of the Third Sight, but I just realized there is an entry in TTT glossary that makes it sound fairly straight forward.

Quote from: TTT glossary
Possessors of the Third Sight
An alternate name for the Cishaurim, so called because of their reputed ability to see without their eyes.


Great find.  This backs up the thought that perhaps the reason Moe "Shines in the 3rd Sight" is because he can use Dunyain abilities to hear heartbeats and intonations in voices and the like so he comes across as being even less blind than his Cish brethren.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:18:55 am
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Posted this on p4 of this thread ;).
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:19:01 am
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

Posted this on p4 of this thread ;).


OK - So what's the implication there?  That when other Cishaurim look at Moe, they're like "Damn!  What a soul!"
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:19:44 am
Quote from: Madness
Sorry, Trisk. Should have wrote p3.

Incidental. There's another Zombie Three Seas quote that supplements these ideas suggesting that cognitive functions the Dunyain breed for, memory, for instance, are related to seeming proportionate in the Third Sight. I'll have to track it down.

I think that's exactly what goes through a Cishaurim's thoughts when beholding Moenghus.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:19:53 am
Quote from: Meyna
I wonder, then, if Moenghus's probability trance gave any significant weight to a "latter Fanim prophet" route.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:19:57 am
Quote from: Madness
Meyna, I've basically convinced myself that Mallahet was to the Cishaurim as Kellhus was to the Inrithi. Interesting that two of Kellhus' goals are simply the selfsame in Kian. Which was Moenghus after? Faith or Sorcery?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:20:03 am
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
Meyna, I've basically convinced myself that Mallahet was to the Cishaurim as Kellhus was to the Inrithi. Interesting that two of Kellhus' goals are simply the selfsame in Kian. Which was Moenghus after? Faith or Sorcery?

Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:20:07 am
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Triskele
Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?
I think its a fair assumption, Triskele.  The Cishaurim were the religious leaders of the nation, not just a sorcerous school.
His heritage would cause controversy, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 02:33:01 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Triskele
Do we have any evidence that Mallahet was known by the Fanim beyond the Cishaurim themselves?
I think its a fair assumption, Triskele.  The Cishaurim were the religious leaders of the nation, not just a sorcerous school.
His heritage would cause controversy, if nothing else.

It would be very interesting to read a Moenghus narrative (though, I'm still assuming this is forthcoming in the books). How did the Cishaurim digest/interpret Mallahet? Was there controversy among the Cishaurim? Was Mallahet truly second-only to Seokti or was Moenghus without Water? Did the Fanim worship Mallahet as a second coming of Fane as Kellhus is to Sejenus or was he more of a Maithanet?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on November 18, 2013, 12:47:53 am
Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 01:19:21 pm
Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

Could be.

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?

I'm convinced Moenghus was high on Cishaurim hierarchy and that he influenced their decisions as an organization.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 02:37:36 pm
Has anyone ever wondered if the Water is somehow finite and distributed amongst the Waterbearers?  Could Meppa be all the more powerful because he's the last Cishaurim?  Pstatma tells Meppa that he has an ocean of Water in him.  Could that be because he has all the Water, so to speak?

ETA:  Also...riffing off of the idea that Moe/Mallahet was to the Fanim w/ Kellhus was to the Inrithi....


Hifanat (sp), the Cish who approaches Kellhus at Caraskand, says something like "we see you, all of us that follow Him, those w/ the 3rd Sight."  That's paraphrasing; not the exact quite. 

But if the 3rd Sight is just the way that all Cishaurim see...could Moenhus have not just controlled a "faction" within the Cishaurim as Kellhus speculates but all of them?
I suppose its possible, but I don't think there is actually a God dispensing the water. Otherwise I feel like Moe would have gotten a decent share of it... Then again maybe not, since a Dunyain couldn't worship anything but themselves.


That 'quote' made me think of how Moenghus shines in the 3rd site for some reason. I guess that would mean Kellhus would be just as bright, if not more so. This would make Kellhus really easy to pick out in a crowd. Easily seen. Maybe thats what the Cish meant?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:24:05 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

From my post (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=782.msg4006#msg4006) on p2 of the thread ;).

EDIT: Well, I look like an idiot. I already linked this once in this thread, on the last page... *facepalm*
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 08:28:53 pm
Shh no one will know the difference.

Anyway, why do the Dunyain reflect the god?
 And, if they reflect God so, why couldn't Moe bare water? Doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:31:22 pm
I suspect it has something to do with this, which I was about to post in the Is Kellhus Few thread:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2006
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 08:44:19 pm
 
I suspect it has something to do with this, which I was about to post in the Is Kellhus Few thread:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2006
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
An unsolved mystery from 7 years ago. Great. We've come so far....

Memory is somewhat heritable... Race memories that all humans share then, except the Dunyain "remember" more since thats what they have been bred to do (accidentally?). Bred to remember. Well that sounds useful to a certain alien race who forgets everything.
Anyway, that seem to point out that the Absolute, and becoming God, is indeed the same thing.
Also makes me think of Assasin's Creed a bit. In case you are unfamiliar: There is a machine that lets you travel back in time through the memories of your ancestors and relive their life. More importantly, the main character turns out to be the accidental convergence of nearly every family bloodline, allowing him to access nearly every memory of the entire history of the Assassin's guild.
Bakker mentioned that Kellhus is somewhat a prodigy. Maybe this could be because Kellhus is the convergence of all the disparate dunyain bloodlines that have been slowly and purposefully been interwoven throughout the centuries. Kellhus is the most Godlike since he has inherited the most of these "memories", making him the closest thing the Dunyain have come to God (Absolute).

Speculation with no answers.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 08:51:25 pm
It makes me think of ancestral memories a la Dune.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2013, 09:05:06 pm
It makes me think of ancestral memories a la Dune.
I know. I had to consciously not say kwisatz haderach (not so hard though because i have too look up the spelling every time).
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Aural on April 15, 2014, 03:47:15 am
Do the Cishaurim use utterals/inutterals?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on April 15, 2014, 11:52:46 am
We don't know? But I think we established that all the Schools do (or don't) use an utteral/inutteral combo?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on April 15, 2014, 05:06:10 pm
@ Octavian/Callan - Your notion that the gods are blind to the Cishaurim is fascinating!  I had never thought about mark/no-mark as being relevant to what the gods can see, since I assumed that they could see non-sorcerers just fine, but maybe you are right and the Cish have figured out a trick like no other!  The ability to use the psukhe on this interpretation would allow one to manipulate the world while letting the gods think that they were the ones in charge.  :)

@ lockesnow - Love your bit about Moe using the psukhe to interrogate a mandati/talk to Seswatha!  I bet there was a mandate hanging up just one room over from the skin spies!!!  Far better way to get info than tedious skin spy neuropuncturing.

@ Octavian - I think that ultimately, Kellhus interpretation that he has seen more of the TTT than his dad is a mark of hubris.  I'm betting Moe conditioned K's path to get K to that inference

@ Madness - Thank you for those Cinmoi quotes!!!  Neat-O!!!

@ Triskele - Love your idea that the water is finite, so being the only Cishaurim makes you super awesome!

@ Wilshire - What you said about memory, it made me wonder if a nonman/quya's magic power rises exactly when they are experiencing whatever makes them remember.  That is, if Cleric had to face hoards of sranc but was not able to use the experience to remember, they would have just run him over?

Before reading this thread, I had thought that there were 2 possibilities for Old Moe: 1) he was as Kellhus said or 2) he was extremely powerful and only cultivated the appearance of weakness to fool Kellhus.  For #2, the Cish could have told Kellhus the truth if any had survived (maybe Meppa will reveal something like this, that Moe could move mountains).  But now I'm wondering about #3, that Moe could be strong and was hiding his strength from all.  He was playing a long con, pretending to be weak in the water to carve out a place 'behind the throne' and that he plays a solo game.  He's the one Dunyain that won the lottery of finding the Psukhe first and now he pulls all the strings wherever.

Whatever the truth about Cishaurim is, I think the whole point of having markless sorcery in the story is to build up to a big reveal about someone manipulating events off stage.  Every coincidence/dream/whatever that made Kellhus into the Warrior Prophet can be explained by Cishaurim and possibly more Dunyains.

TUC predicition:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48570409.jpg

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.

EDIT2: It's weird that Xinemus can see the Cishaurim's seeing.  Could it be that they are 'marked' but you have to be blind to see it?  Would be nice to have Iyokus' perspective on this.  Would be a good reason to keep a blind dude (with the gift?) of the few in the entourage.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2014, 11:56:44 pm

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.


How about Cishaurim using Wutteat as one of their snakeheads?! Would any blinded animal/person serve as eyes?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on April 29, 2014, 10:24:15 pm

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.


How about Cishaurim using Wutteat as one of their snakeheads?! Would any blinded animal/person serve as eyes?

I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 30, 2014, 03:05:17 am
I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Riding in on a mad beast whose soul has rotted into a portal to hell would be cool, but I wouldn't count on him saving the Ordeal, haha.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Somnambulist on April 30, 2014, 05:07:01 pm
Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Madness on May 01, 2014, 12:21:01 pm
Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.

This is interesting...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:54:46 am
I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Riding in on a mad beast whose soul has rotted into a portal to hell would be cool, but I wouldn't count on him saving the Ordeal, haha.
Oh, yeah snakes are not blind.
btw, burst out laughing with that last line.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.
It has not been stated yet. Very interesting... Where is locke, I'm sure he'll explain it!
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 02, 2014, 10:40:48 am
I tend to think the Cish only need the snakes for mundane activities and aiming the flow of water.  The can see souls and the inherent 'meaning' of some other objects but probably would have a hard time warding arrows and negotiating steps without their snakes.  Wouldn't need them for cants of communication etc.  Just my opinion though.

Came across a thing where someone asked what 'language' a person who was deaf from birth would think in.

I related it to how the Cish frame meaning with the Psukhe lacking a visual component, of course.  Metaphysics of deaf wizards anyone? 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on May 05, 2014, 09:19:38 pm
Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.

That's awesome! 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on May 05, 2014, 10:06:10 pm
I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Riding in on a mad beast whose soul has rotted into a portal to hell would be cool, but I wouldn't count on him saving the Ordeal, haha.
Oh, yeah snakes are not blind.
btw, burst out laughing with that last line.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.
It has not been stated yet. Very interesting... Where is locke, I'm sure he'll explain it!
Crazy busy at work.  But I LOVE the theory that they are sluffing off damnation on the snakes. :D
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on May 27, 2014, 02:40:31 am
Sluffing off damnation on snakes...but snakes are holy!  Snakes become unstable!  Put them in a big black box inside a hurricane!
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on June 15, 2014, 04:04:22 am
That theory about the snakes is awesome.  But I go back to the chorae thing.  They are still made to disappear by the chorae even if they do not bear the mark.  Perhaps we don't know enough about the Aporos, but however it works, it doesn't seem to hinge on the mark. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on July 03, 2014, 05:04:40 am
That theory about the snakes is awesome.  But I go back to the chorae thing.  They are still made to disappear by the chorae even if they do not bear the mark.  Perhaps we don't know enough about the Aporos, but however it works, it doesn't seem to hinge on the mark. 

I wonder if the choraes have a 'self-consuming' mark?  Isn't it supposed to be a sorcery of paradox?  Also, I wonder if the Cishaurim end up marked in the judging eye--they don't get the ugly, aesthetic disfiguration that mandatis and others get, but they end up damned all the same.  Let's get Meppa in front of Mimara and wait until she starts seeing things.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 06, 2014, 09:39:19 pm
That would be funny if Marks are just a technical byproduct of a divine interest, an echoes or a scars of cyphrang/godling/god gaze over soul. Like we have Outside and different agencies there whom, uh-oh, exist out of our time concept. Maybe, it's how they track important, dangerous, favourite people. Or draw silly pictures, lol, with ordinary souls as canvas and marked one as colours (for all we know they can be even texting each other this way -.-).

Yep, with this theory I`m desperately trying to go away from "mark of Cain" context. And I`ll help myself with every Cants of Internets available:

From Middle English mark, merk, merke, from Old English mearc (“mark, sign, line of division; standard; boundary, limit, term, border; defined area, district, province”), from Proto-Germanic *markō (“boundary; boundary marker”), from Proto-Indo-European *marǵ- (“edge, boundary, border”).

Considering the whole issue about Outside pouring into Earwa and birthing topoi, that Proto-Indo-European meaning makes me very happy. On the one hand, sorcerors now sound like a stones in a wall separating reality and Outside. On the other hand, sorcerors are not damned, they just have a nice soul tan from direct exposing to Outside. Though... can a soul tan result in a soul cancer (just remember Wutteat and his pocket hell)?

And yes, that's how I sentence Cishaurim to insignificance. With this theory they are not chosens of a "Solitary God" or something, but just a bunch of powerful sorcerors whose metaphysics, values and behaviour made them tedious in the divine eyes.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on July 08, 2014, 08:08:39 pm
Quote
That would be funny if Marks are just a technical byproduct of a divine interest, an echoes or a scars of cyphrang/godling/god gaze over soul. Like we have Outside and different agencies there whom, uh-oh, exist out of our time concept. Maybe, it's how they track important, dangerous, favourite people.

That's nice and I think it fits well with Bakker's ignorance mantra.  Humans (who ignorant of the true purpose of the Mark) take it as a sign of damnation because they assume to know.  If that is the case, I don't know that this mystery will be solved in TUC.  Seems like that might be the kind of thing he could hold back to the last last book.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoint on July 21, 2014, 10:45:06 pm
Quote from: Octavian
I just finished a reread of the first series I and I have to say that I found the Cishaurim to be more interesting this time around. Notably in the raw power that they yield. The Scarlet Spires thought them to be less powerful than Anagogic Schools but the battle for Shimeh proved that to be otherwise and I totally forgot about the way that they assassinated the former Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires.

With that said, I am surprised that the Probability Trance did not show Kellhus a way to implement them in TTT. More maybe it did but was not beneficial? I understand that there was no way to keep them alive being that they were the priests of a heretic religion, but the fact that their sorcery was markless is something that captivates me.

We know that some gods at least war against Kellhus, yet the Cishaurim bare no mark and it was never stated that the gods were blind to them as they are to the no god. Yet they were not actively against them, even though they took away many of their followers. Does they attest to the rightness of Fanim? If so, what does it mean now that it is gone. Thoughts?

I had never considered that the cishaurim might be right because I was so sure that all sorcerers were damned, but that is a very interesting perspective. 


I have nothing useful to add except a few questions that popped into my head lol.


Are the Cishaurim even damned?  (sorry if this is already discussed here, Im too sleepy to read 7 pages)

Can an anagogic or gnostic sorcerer that is damned/has the mark become cishaurim and if so, does it effect his mark?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on July 21, 2014, 10:55:28 pm
The mark stains the world, not just the sorcerer.  Apparently, only the aporos (chorae) undoes it.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on July 22, 2014, 01:49:26 am
yeah, geoint, it's a lot to read!

I don't think we really know much about damnation at all.  For all I know, some sorcerers may be stained but not damned and of course your average Joe is going to be unstained and damned.  That's such a big mystery, I expect we'll hear some about it in TUC but he might hold a lot of that secret for the very last Earwan book.

I like where you're going with with anagogic/gnostic to cishaurim.  Are you thinking about Iyokus?  He's a bundle of secrets, got to be.  Blindness + Titirga does cool stuff, so you know Iyokus is going to do something sweet, prolly at Dagliash.  Maybe he'll be the one anagogic sorcerer able to raise the anagogis to Mandate level sorcery.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoint on July 22, 2014, 03:36:14 am
yeah, geoint, it's a lot to read!

I don't think we really know much about damnation at all.  For all I know, some sorcerers may be stained but not damned and of course your average Joe is going to be unstained and damned.  That's such a big mystery, I expect we'll hear some about it in TUC but he might hold a lot of that secret for the very last Earwan book.

I like where you're going with with anagogic/gnostic to cishaurim.  Are you thinking about Iyokus?  He's a bundle of secrets, got to be.  Blindness + Titirga does cool stuff, so you know Iyokus is going to do something sweet, prolly at Dagliash.  Maybe he'll be the one anagogic sorcerer able to raise the anagogis to Mandate level sorcery.


I dont remember what Titirga is. 

I hadn't really thought about Iyokus.  I know hes still alive, the new grandmaster of the SS and that he taught Kellhus the Daimos.  Other than that, I hadn't really assumed he would come into play much.  I guess I kinda assumed that only the mandate (not the entire army) would make it all the way to the arc.  Silly and totally unfair to everybody else participating I know lol, but I just assumed they were all meant to be pawns to be sacrificed to get Kellhus and his most useful sorcerers all the way there. 



Heres another random thought; I really wonder about damnation in the bakker universe.  I remember the college of Luthymae (spelling?) were those with the gift who chose to serve the gods instead.  Now though, with Kellhus reversing the stigma about sorcery I imagine the college would be absorbed into the schools.  I wonder what those new sorcerers will think when they die and are in hell or whatever because Kellhus convinced them sorcery was ok lol. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on July 22, 2014, 05:54:35 am
Titirga!

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/

He is so WIRG

I had never thought about Luthymae being absorbed--that would bolster the ranks.  One strike against it is that, I think, learning sorcery has to be done by the young (unless you are a Dunyain) because of the 'meanings.'  However, if anyone can find a way around this, it's gonna be Kellhus.

If he can teach Sacarees how to meta-gnosis, maybe he can teach Luthymae to normal gnosis.

I like the idea of the College of Luthymae and I think that if any school was really clever they would include something like it in their network.  They have to come across a few individuals who have the Gift, but are not ideal candidates for learning sorcery.  These people would be invaluable spies.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Garet Jax on August 25, 2014, 02:13:20 pm
Aside from the Cishaurim being referred to as a "Chorus" on several occasions, is there any direct textual evidence that they sing when performing the Psukhe?


During the cast I was corrected when I said they didn't sing, but I can't find any evidence that they do other than the above referenced Chorus connection.


I know I am probably missing/forgetting something obvious here, but any help?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Aural on August 25, 2014, 02:18:12 pm
There are references to all sorcerers singing, but I don't think it's meant to be taking literally. Did Mallahet sing in front of Ikurei?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Garet Jax on August 25, 2014, 02:27:52 pm
To clarify, I guess I am asking if they use an utteral when performing the Psukhe.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on August 25, 2014, 06:32:16 pm
Yeah, pretty sure Moe sings, glowing mouth and eyes and all, when he conjures up Skauras' face.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: SilentRoamer on August 25, 2014, 06:57:57 pm
It is worth remembering as well that the Cish are reffered to as Concerts.

I always imagined that the Cish spoke but that was not a key component in using the Water. I always believed the Water flowed from the center of the head with the snakes acting as guides. The Ciphrang pulled the nameless Cish soul through a connection he saw to the Cish forehead IIRC. I always thought that connection to be the Water.

Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Garet Jax on August 25, 2014, 07:20:04 pm
It is worth remembering as well that the Cish are reffered to as Concerts.

True.  But I am more interested in the verb form and the secondary noun definitions of "concert". 

-"agreement, accordance, or harmony." (secondary noun definition)

-"arrange (something) by mutual agreement or coordination." (verb definition)

I merely looked these definitions up online, so their origin could contradict my thoughts.

Thinking along the lines of them not singing, I had believed them all to just be thinking the same thing (or of the same "passion") instead of signing pre-determined words and thinking pre-determined meanings.

However, if they are noted as truly singing, then my whole question is pointless ;)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on August 25, 2014, 08:15:21 pm
I am not 100% certain, but I do not believe that we have any evidence that speaking/singing is part of the Water. 

That's another Cishaurim mystery that I'd love to get more on but don't really expect to.  How do the Cishaurim train?  We have a bit of an idea on Gnostic sorcerers.  They need to learn the language and practice like hell to combine the utteral and the inutteral.  What do the Cishaurim practice or train on?   What makes the Incandati better than the Primaries better than the Tertiaries?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on August 25, 2014, 09:46:46 pm
@ Triskele - i second that!

if they do use language, would they use the same one that another school uses or an entirely different language?

i would also like to no more of their power structure in regard to the padirajah, as it seems that they help the kianene but are independent and not commanded like soldiers, like the imperial saik
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on August 25, 2014, 09:48:23 pm
Any group of sorcerers singing is referred to as a concert:

"Achamian could hear the other Schoolmen shouting to each other in shock and dismay.  He could feel them scramble among the queues, hasten to assemble a Concert." - TWP
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on August 25, 2014, 10:13:41 pm
Just read through the battle at Shimeh, and it's stark how they are never referred to as singing, despite song being mentioned almost every time an SS sorcerer comes up.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on August 29, 2014, 09:57:57 pm
I could imagine the Cishaurim just vocalizing, does that sound preposterous?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on August 29, 2014, 11:14:47 pm
OOOO!  I've an idea.

First, the quote from TDTCB and Mallahet:

Quote
"I have come, Emperor, so you might parlay with another."
Xerius blinked.  "Who?"
For a moment, it seemed the Nail of Heaven flashed from the Cishaurim's brow.
So, no words, no glowing of the eyes or mouth (my bad).

Gnostic and anagogic sorcery are more bound to this world (through reason and metaphor), and so require the outspoken utteral as the portal through which will is made manifest. 

BUT, the Psukhe, the passion-based sorcery, requires not an utteral and an inutteral, but a conscious inutteral and a subconscious inutteral.  A perfect fusion of feeling and thought.

Perhaps, even, it is the utteral which stains the onta.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on August 30, 2014, 04:59:32 am
This could be something locke has pointed out before, but it's hard to credit Moe with being weak in the Water when his warm up for the skype session creates a light that is described by the brightest star in the sky.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on August 30, 2014, 05:59:12 am
I'm fairly sure that the light that emanates from Cishie foreheads is analogous to the light that comes from schoolmen's eyes/mouth.

Interesting that Kellhus' eyes are described as twin nails of heaven when he teleports into Shimeh to slaughter the Primaries.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on August 30, 2014, 06:25:46 am
Nope never caught this before. Hidden in plain sight.  Call them singers or choruses and no one will notice if they never actually sing.  It's actually a great cognitive trick and a classic illusion.

It's amazing how easy it is to short circuit the human brain.  Give something a name and the mass delusion is we all universally edit in information to support that name/definition subconsciously.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 12:05:30 am
OOOO!  I've an idea.

First, the quote from TDTCB and Mallahet:

Quote
"I have come, Emperor, so you might parlay with another."
Xerius blinked.  "Who?"
For a moment, it seemed the Nail of Heaven flashed from the Cishaurim's brow.
So, no words, no glowing of the eyes or mouth (my bad).

Gnostic and anagogic sorcery are more bound to this world (through reason and metaphor), and so require the outspoken utteral as the portal through which will is made manifest. 

BUT, the Psukhe, the passion-based sorcery, requires not an utteral and an inutteral, but a conscious inutteral and a subconscious inutteral.  A perfect fusion of feeling and thought.

Perhaps, even, it is the utteral which stains the onta.
I like your thinking here.

Also the fact that it comes from thoughts, and the light shines from their forehead, makes me realize that the similarity in names between "Psukhe" and "Psyche" is probably deliberate.

Cishaurim=psionicist, not sorcerer.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on September 06, 2014, 06:46:07 pm
Question:  do we have any evidence that Cishaurim can "feel" chorae in their presence the way that gnostic and anagogic sorcerers do?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 07, 2014, 07:12:55 pm
I think there's something when Mallahet first shows up in Momemn with his snakes finding and tracking the chorae bearing bowmen in the chamber, so it may be possible they can "see" them. But there's nothing concrete, no. We never get a Cishaurim point of view.

Given that they see the Mark as other sorcerors do though, I think it's a good assumption they could sense the absence of the Chorae.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on September 07, 2014, 10:15:22 pm
I think there's something when Mallahet first shows up in Momemn with his snakes finding and tracking the chorae bearing bowmen in the chamber, so it may be possible they can "see" them. But there's nothing concrete, no. We never get a Cishaurim point of view.

Given that they see the Mark as other sorcerors do though, I think it's a good assumption they could sense the absence of the Chorae.

Yeah, that's possibly suggestive but hardly proof.   

We don't fully understand the relationship between the snakes and the Cish user, but it's possible that someone like Moe would just want to use his snakes to scope out the scene where chorae bowman would presumably be positioned.  That is to say I could see how this scene could play out without it necessarily be because the Cishaurim in question feels the pinprick of the chorae the way other sorcerers do. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 12:52:14 am
Yes, that's certainly possible too. I don't think there's anything definitive either way. I personally lean towards "they can sense them" but it's far from a certainty.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on September 08, 2014, 04:12:16 am
Yes, that's certainly possible too. I don't think there's anything definitive either way. I personally lean towards "they can sense them" but it's far from a certainty.

Thanks, and it's probably obvious where I'm going with this, but I'm wondering if there could be yet another bit of evidence (or textual lack thereof in this example) that the Cish are different from other sorcerers.

I'm still sort of fascinated by it.  It is clearly not mechanical like the Tekne, but it's also clearly something different than the rest of what we're dealing with in the rest of the sorcery in the series. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 02:20:25 pm
It's a shame we've never gotten the point of view of anyone that uses the Psukhe. I don't like having to rely entirely on inferences that may or may not be correct from Kellhus that he has shared with other people for what may or may not have been honest reasons.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 04:23:01 pm
I suspect that never getting a POV from a Cish is deliberate, but I'll skim through TJE and WLW to see if Meppa ever gives an indication that he is one of the Few.

In Kell and Moe's conversation when they describe each other's paths through the world, neither of them bring up Moe being one of the Few (they mention him being sent off, as a brilliant mind and interpreter of the Kipfa'aifan, to the Cish, but that's it).

Personally, I think it's not the sorcerers, but the practice, that separates them from the other Schools.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 04:53:11 pm
Of the two children of Moenghus that survived to adulthood, both were of the few though. That's not enough on its own to prove anything, but it makes it much more likely that he carries the same genetic potential that makes all other sorcery possible.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 07:29:34 pm
True.  And while only one of Kell's children actually became a sorcerer, I strongly suspect Kayutas is of the Few but there's a reason Kell prevents him from being marked.  Theliopa and Kelmomas, in my mind, almost certainly are of the few (although given Thelli's sociopathy, it's kind of strange that he wouldn't make her into a witch, as surely that disconnection would make her very capable).

BUT, because this is a genetic argument, we don't know if all of this is purely by blood, or simply a result of their honest/self-aware neurology.

Discussed further here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1064.0
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 07:33:32 pm
There were strong implications that at least in the Nonmen sorcery was primarily genetic.

And Kelmomas/Samarmas (one or both, since they share the same body and all) is definitely one of the Few. He sees the wards about the Andiamine heights.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on September 08, 2014, 07:44:36 pm
Hell, I've missed that.  Unless - are you talking about when he realizes there's been a 'shadow' structure, within the Heights?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2014, 07:49:46 pm
Hell, I've missed that.  Unless - are you talking about when he realizes there's been a 'shadow' structure, within the Heights?
No, that's not it. He explicitly identifies them as sorcerous wards. Not a lot of attention is called to it in the text so it's easy to miss. I believe it's when he's sneaking out to perform that murder, but could be misremembering.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on September 09, 2014, 11:16:53 am
Yes Kelmomas is few!  I'm hoping he becomes the last student of the last Cishaurim what with all his passion and intellect being so high up.  He would make for a cool deranged savior of humanity a couple decades hence.

If Theliopia and the crazy one are like the preborn Alia, they could be concealing the gift of the few.  Theliopia has got some big surprise on the way, its too dunyain to act so weak.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 02:30:58 pm
Kelmomas as deranged God-Emperor wielding some sort of hyper-psukhe in the latter days of the apocalypse as compared with Kellhus' more rational rule employing the meta-gnosis would be cool
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: themerchant on September 09, 2014, 03:32:10 pm
Yes Kelmomas is few!  I'm hoping he becomes the last student of the last Cishaurim what with all his passion and intellect being so high up.  He would make for a cool deranged savior of humanity a couple decades hence.

If Theliopia and the crazy one are like the preborn Alia, they could be concealing the gift of the few.  Theliopia has got some big surprise on the way, its too dunyain to act so weak.

Yeah i don't believe Theliopia is as skittish as she makes out.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 03:36:46 pm
Is she supposed to be skittish or does she just have a serious stutter?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on September 09, 2014, 04:59:40 pm
Is she supposed to be skittish or does she just have a serious stutter?

to me, her whole aspect feels like a put on
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Ciogli on September 09, 2014, 05:04:38 pm
I think she has a type of Autism, another defective only fit for the unmasking room in Ishual, if girls are allowed there. At the rate Kellhus is putting out defectives the majority of Ishual must be defectives, unless it is simply the inbreeding that makes fertility so difficult with the worldborn. The majority vast majority of babies born in Ishual must die before procreating, much like in the wild where ninety percent mortality rates are common. But I'm starting to suspect maybe the Dunyain are a matriarchy of some type, we have only seen two elder Dunyain throughout the series.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 05:11:46 pm
It depends on how much the defects we see in Kellhus's offspring are due to inbreeding depression and how much they are due to genetic incompatibility between Dunyain and other Homo sapiens, since Dunyain seem to be undergoing speciation.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 07:30:43 pm
Nope never caught this before. Hidden in plain sight.  Call them singers or choruses and no one will notice if they never actually sing.  It's actually a great cognitive trick and a classic illusion.

It's amazing how easy it is to short circuit the human brain.  Give something a name and the mass delusion is we all universally edit in information to support that name/definition subconsciously.

I am prepared to be embarrassed by many things TUC reveals. This whole thing is probably something close to a social experiment anyway.



OOOO!  I've an idea.

First, the quote from TDTCB and Mallahet:

Quote
"I have come, Emperor, so you might parlay with another."
Xerius blinked.  "Who?"
For a moment, it seemed the Nail of Heaven flashed from the Cishaurim's brow.
So, no words, no glowing of the eyes or mouth (my bad).

Gnostic and anagogic sorcery are more bound to this world (through reason and metaphor), and so require the outspoken utteral as the portal through which will is made manifest. 

BUT, the Psukhe, the passion-based sorcery, requires not an utteral and an inutteral, but a conscious inutteral and a subconscious inutteral.  A perfect fusion of feeling and thought.

Perhaps, even, it is the utteral which stains the onta.
I like your thinking here.

Also the fact that it comes from thoughts, and the light shines from their forehead, makes me realize that the similarity in names between "Psukhe" and "Psyche" is probably deliberate.

Cishaurim=psionicist, not sorcerer.


Haha, closer than you even know (http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/psyche):
under definitions for Psyche:
From latin,  from greek psukhe breath, soul; related to greek psukhein to breathe

I suspect that never getting a POV from a Cish is deliberate, but I'll skim through TJE and WLW to see if Meppa ever gives an indication that he is one of the Few.

In Kell and Moe's conversation when they describe each other's paths through the world, neither of them bring up Moe being one of the Few (they mention him being sent off, as a brilliant mind and interpreter of the Kipfa'aifan, to the Cish, but that's it).

Personally, I think it's not the sorcerers, but the practice, that separates them from the other Schools.
Agreed that POVs are all very deliberate, and the lack there of.

I think the Puske is truely the only different mechanism for magic in Earwa. Gnosis and anagogic are basically the same, and the aporos is derived from the former.

Psuke is the only school that arose without the help of Nonmen (as far as we know), and the only school that does not use a nonman tongue to wield its miracles.

I think she has a type of Autism, another defective only fit for the unmasking room in Ishual, if girls are allowed there. At the rate Kellhus is putting out defectives the majority of Ishual must be defectives, unless it is simply the inbreeding that makes fertility so difficult with the worldborn. The majority vast majority of babies born in Ishual must die before procreating, much like in the wild where ninety percent mortality rates are common. But I'm starting to suspect maybe the Dunyain are a matriarchy of some type, we have only seen two elder Dunyain throughout the series.
Autism, or somewhere on the spectrum at least, seems like a great explanation for Thelopia. Something like Aspergers maybe. Other thoughts about dunyain inbreeding can be found all around this forum.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 08:16:08 pm
I'm pretty sure the anagogis was developed independently by humans historically
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on September 11, 2014, 02:59:16 am
There's a quote at the beginning of the Cishaurim's revealing of themselves on The Battleplain in Warrior Prophet before they're all killed by the charge of the Shrial Knights.  I don't have it handy, but it's something about how their snakes (and it mentions that each has five) are fanning out like candelabras trying to sense the trinkets hidden among their opponents.  I'll try to get the exact quote later, but it's one that strongly suggests that the Cishaurim can sense or "see" the chorae, but like the other quote above with Mallahet, I'd say it is not entirely conclusive.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 05:46:50 pm
I'm pretty sure the anagogis was developed independently by humans historically
It was a brutalized version of the Gnosis, developed using a more debased nonman tongue than the one the Quya/Mandate used. I believe it arose only after Men had learned the Gnosis.

Some Shamans are described pre-BotG, but I don't think its called or referred to as Anagogis.

Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 01:28:18 am
Nah, Sharmat has it right imo.
The gnosis, as wielded by men, is adapted from Quyan sorcery.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2014, 02:40:27 am
I think the confusion comes from Achamian implying that you could derive the Gnosis from the Anagogis if you knew the right logical leaps to make. Apparently it's very very hard for humans to make that leap on their own though.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 06:07:15 pm
What do you make of them using the Nonman language? I'll have to hunt for quotes if I remember regarding the advent of the Anagogis, but the PoN glossaries clearly show that they wield sorcery using a Nonman tongue.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Garet Jax on September 12, 2014, 06:08:56 pm
What do you make of them using the Nonman language? I'll have to hunt for quotes if I remember regarding the advent of the Anagogis, but the PoN glossaries clearly show that they wield sorcery using a Nonman tongue.

The impression I got was they would just recite what they heard, and didn't know about the inutteral.  That's how the Anagogis came to be?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 06:15:26 pm
A discuss for the sorcery topic perhaps, but all sorcery that we know of uses both utteral and innutteral. I thought for a long time that the Anagogis was missing the innutteral but that is not the case.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 06:47:36 pm
Quote
Garet Jax [12|Sep 02:42 pm]:   
Anagogic Limitations This dualistic technique is what distinguishes Gnostic from Anagogic Sorcery, and explains why the Anagogic Schools can never duplicate the Gnosis, as they can only reproduce the utterals of the Gnosis and are either unaware of the innuterals, or incapable of learning them. Kellhus nodded... “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless." "There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”(*)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Garet Jax on September 12, 2014, 07:48:03 pm

Quote
Garet Jax [12|Sep 02:42 pm]:   
"There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”(*)

Seems like the last line is the key here.


Is there any evidence other than that line that says the Anagogic schools use an inutteral?


I interpreted that line as "Inutterals are the key difference between the Gnosis and Anagogic types of Sorcery".
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 11:28:41 pm
My understanding;

For both the gnosis and anagosis inutterals are in your native toungue(or whatever language one subvocalizes in), uterrals must be in a dead language in order to fix the meanings.
So just repeating the incantations does nothing if you don't understand the concepts.

Quote from: wiki on mathematical language
Sometimes formulas cannot be understood without a written or spoken explanation, but often they are sufficient by themselves, and sometimes they are difficult to read aloud or information is lost in the translation to words, as when several parenthetical factors are involved or when a complex structure like a matrix is manipulated.
Gilcunic provides a vocabulary that enables gnostic mages to leverage different metaphysical concepts that anagogic mages simply do not understand. 
Remember that the anagosis is powered by anologies rather than abstraction.  It's like the difference between simile and metaphor, and there is a rather large gulf between these things from a metaphysical perspective.

The psukhe is interesting because its meaning is fixed without this interplay, it seems like brute force alteration of reality through faith, like how a creationist might deny fossil records.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Seökti on January 23, 2015, 07:28:20 am
My understanding is that the Cishaurim don't use utterals because having a 'fixed' meaning is besides the point: it is the function and intensity of ANY given meaning that concerns them.  There only needs to be an inutteral because the 'Water' is felt, not grasped through concept.  'Fixing' the meaning would limit its scope and intensity, things which power the pouring of the water.  This is also why their sorcery has no mark, they are not attempting to 'edit' or 'overwrite' the real by replacing on fixed meaning (or object) with another but are attempting instead to realize (both in terms of comprehension and in terms of making real) the vast potential for meaning already found within the present.  They dispense with the 'why' of the gnosis and anagnosis and focus instead on the 'how'.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2015, 05:13:03 pm
Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"
.
Anyone else think that it would be possible to have enough purity of intent/meaning to manifest the utteral component of sorcery without any language at all?


Those thoughts seemed relevant. There are some discussion regarding this topic in the Sorcery thread.

Really interesting first couple posts Seokti. Anyway, it does seem that the Cish remain silent, or at least are capable of doing some magic without words.
Title: the water and primary secondary and tersiary
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 23, 2015, 06:19:01 pm
three kinds of water
river sea and sulfur blood
a bad moon rising
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on March 23, 2015, 04:22:12 pm
I WAS THINKING, IF THE CISHAURIM CAN SEND DREAMS AND IF THEY ARE NOT BOUND BY HAVING TO KNOW BEFOREHAND THE PLACE/PERSON WHO IS RECEIVING, THEN THAT IS BASICALLY SOMETHING LIKE WIRELESS NEUROPUNCTURE.

THINK WHAT MOENGHUS COULD DO WITH 20 YEARS OF THAT POWER!

FOR EXAMPLE, HE KNOWS THAT THE 3SEAS MUST UNITE AND THAT THE WAY TO DO IT IS TO STAGE A CONFLICT BETWEEN INRITHI AND FANIM, THUS THE INRITHI WILL BE LIMITED AS LONG AS THE SCYLVENDI THREATEN THE CITY OF THE TUSK.  SO MOE GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO USE DREAMS TO MOLD THE MILITARY GENIUS, CONPHAS TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

HE MOLDS THE OTHERS TOO: SAUBON, PROYAS, SCARLET SPIRES GUYS

BONUS: EVERYONE IMPORTANT THAT THE CISHAURIM CAN'T SEND DREAMS TOO, WELL THAT RIGHT THERE TELLS YOU WHO IS A SKIN SPY
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on March 23, 2015, 06:14:24 pm
I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on March 23, 2015, 07:11:23 pm
I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.
Yeah why just the Cish, MG? Apply same logic to Meta-gnosis, or whatever it is that the Zeum schoolmen have, and all you get is a clusterfuck of unknowable and untraceable magical tinkering that has never even been hinted at after 5 books.

I'm going to be upset if there is some unmentioned dues ex machina invisible Cish magic that is revealed in TUC to have been happening in the background the entire time.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on March 23, 2015, 07:19:23 pm
The Zeumi school is Anagogic, I thought?

Though I suppose after such a long separation their version of the Anagogis could be different from the Three Seas variety to an extent.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on March 23, 2015, 08:39:39 pm
Yeah its anagogic of some kind, but it uses totems and other items to help with the magic. Just seemed ripe for rule bending since we know so little about it, like the Psuke and meta-gnosis.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: The Sharmat on March 24, 2015, 12:09:23 pm
That's nifty. Maybe they use some kind of fetish to fix the meaning instead of an utteral, sometimes?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on March 25, 2015, 04:23:10 am
I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.
Yeah why just the Cish, MG? Apply same logic to Meta-gnosis, or whatever it is that the Zeum schoolmen have, and all you get is a clusterfuck of unknowable and untraceable magical tinkering that has never even been hinted at after 5 books.

I'm going to be upset if there is some unmentioned dues ex machina invisible Cish magic that is revealed in TUC to have been happening in the background the entire time.

For 2 reasons: No one but the Cishuarim has a Dunyain before Kellhus arrives (so maybe it's impossible to do without a Dunyain intellect) and it could leave a mark (even if faint) of sorcery if anyone but the Cish do it.  I'm reminded of this bit from TDTCB p 97, Akka thinking about using compulsion on Inrau to spy on the 1000 Temples

     
Quote
But if he'd used the Cants of Compulsion, sooner or later the Luthymae, the College of monks and priests that managed the Thousand Temples' own vast network of spies, would have identified the mark of sorcery upon Inrau.  Not all of the Few became sorcerers.  Many used the "gift" to war against the Schools.  And the College of Luthymae, Achamian had no doubt, would kill Inrau for bearing sorcery's mark.  He had lost agents to them before.

After Kellhus takes over, I don't know why he wouldn't use the metagnosis for dreams.  Wild side thing--wouldn't it be cool if Luthymae had super warriors who were expertly trained to assassinate sorcerers?

To me, the Psukhe is not necessarily a deus ex machina if Bakker has foreshadowed it enough (we'll only know at the point of revelation if the foreshadowing is proportional to the revelation) and if he continues to foreshadow it.  I'm expecting 'psukhe is everywhere' to be wrong, really, but...

@ The Sharmat - I think that the devices the Zeumi sorcerers use are called fetishes.  But I don't know if they are really different from the other anagogic schools--i bet some knowledge of sorcery + objects remains with the anagogic schools here and there.  In the Ancient North, it seemed to be a bigger deal.  The fetishes might also be used to communicate in with someone who is not one of the Few.  I think the Zeumi sorcerer following Fanayal communicates with the Zeumi king, and he is not explicitly stated as being a sorcerer.  maybe?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoint on May 22, 2015, 07:14:48 am
I think it would be a waste of manpower to train the College of Luthymae as assassins when they are perfectly capable of being full fledged sorcerers now.  The only type of troop that seems to be trained to kill sorcerers are chorae bowmen and Acha demonstrated in Iothiah how easily they can be dispatched by a sorcerer who pays attention to where the chorae are around him.  You cant burn them directly but you can pull walls down on them or collapse the floor/ground underneath them, all while keeping them out of your line of sight! 

Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on May 28, 2015, 07:00:03 pm
The only advantage would be that they bare no mark, but like you said they wouldn't be able to carry any kind of chorae or it would amount to the same thing. Considering that, it does seem like a waste, as they could only be used as scouts to signal that a sorcerer was around, which while somewhat useful is not really an advantage when you have to choose between that and a real sorcerer.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 10, 2015, 03:02:52 pm
People have been discussing this of late, so I think it is time to reboot this thread.

Let's start with the idea, is Water itself Divine?

It seems like it, since Water doesn't leave a Mark.  However, if that is true, then all Cishaurim are Divine workers.  This doesn't seem correct to me, visa vis, Moe, who despite zero spirituality, can wield the Water nearly as well as anyone.  Also, confounding this, is what is revealed in The False Sun, that Titirga basically can wield the Water, at least in some rudimentary form.  He is also with any, seemingly, Divinity or even Divine guidance.

I think the connection between Water and the Divine is the opposite?  Water isn't Divine.  Divinity flows from Water, so to speak?

I need to think more on that, I am sort of rambling now...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 10, 2015, 10:22:54 pm
That's a really interesting inversion, H, conceiving Water as an abstraction for the source of all divinity.

When RSB described the Psukhe as being about impetus rather than representation, I interpreted it leveraging the intent behind natural forces.  Extending Acquinas' argument of the unmoved mover, it's God's thought that that causes his divine hand to set something in motion.

Imagine that Earwa is a vast sea of unrealized potentialities (reality seeds, if you will), the Water.  The impetus of Solitary God causes some to be realized as tangible forces (a gust of wind, for example).  But the rest lie dormant. 

It could be that the Psukhe allows practitioners to realize this otherwise dormant impetus.  And there is no mark because they're working "within the system" rather than forcibly changing the end result.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 11, 2015, 10:21:22 pm
since Water doesn't leave a Mark.
Oh, your line gave me a funny insight.

Why to use word "water" in the first place? Yeah, I remember the stuff about tribe of water-bearers, an important people in the wasteland. But. Water doesn't leave a Mark, you're so right, water is all about opposite. Water can dilute filth or even wash it away completely. So. First cishs named their power just because it spared them of their Marks or, maybe, even damnationl?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 12, 2015, 05:06:04 pm
Interesting idea.  I think you are on to something there.  I think all the qualities of water are sort of part-and-parcel to what the Pshuke is, a la, flowing, heavy, life-giving, etc.  All those could, at times, be applied to passion.

So, Water isn't divinely given to mortals, but in reality, it is mortals that give it to the Divine?  Fane created the Solitary God with his Water, not the reverse?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on July 13, 2015, 07:01:38 am
Interesting idea.  I think you are on to something there.  I think all the qualities of water are sort of part-and-parcel to what the Pshuke is, a la, flowing, heavy, life-giving, etc.  All those could, at times, be applied to passion.

So, Water isn't divinely given to mortals, but in reality, it is mortals that give it to the Divine?  Fane created the Solitary God with his Water, not the reverse?
Would square with serwe making kellhus divine.  And I love the idea that the water rinses away the mark.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 13, 2015, 11:18:22 am
Consider the following quotes:

Quote
If the world is a game whose rules are written by the God, and sorcerers are those who cheat and cheat, then who has written the rules of sorcery?
—ZARATHINIUS, A DEFENCE OF THE ARCANE ARTS

Quote
Every monumental work of the State is measured by cubits. Every cubit is measured by the length of the Aspect-Emperor’s arm. And the Aspect-Emperor’s arm, they say, stands beyond measure. But I say the Aspect-Emperor’s arm is measured by the length of a cubit, and that all cubits are measured by the works of the State. Not even the All stands beyond measure, for it is more than what lies within it, and “more” is a kind of measure. Even the God has His cubits.
—IMPARRHAS, PSÛKALOGUES

Quote
“Think of the way a fire will shroud the world in the course of illuminating a camp. Often the light of what we see blinds us, and we come to think there is one angle and one angle only. Though they know it not, this is why the Cishaurim blind themselves. They douse the fire of their eyes, pluck the one angle they see, to better grasp the many they recollect. They sacrifice the subtle articulations of knowledge for the inchoate profundities of intuition. They recall the tone and timbre, the passion, of the God’s voice—to near perfection—even as the meanings that make up true sorcery escape them.”

I think Kellhus might be wrong, in the sense that Cishaurim blind themselves not to see more, but to literally see less.  The world itself is vulgar in the sense and the Onta is pure, so they see only the purity of their own intention and intuition, not the contradiction between the world they know and the world they see.

This does present the idea that the Mark is self-created.  I'm unsure how to feel about that.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 13, 2015, 08:45:17 pm
Quote
Would square with serwe making kellhus divine.  And I love the idea that the water rinses away the mark.

And squares with the notion that the "rules" of Earwa are shaped by human beliefs.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wic on July 14, 2015, 05:34:01 am
Quote
They recall the tone and timbre, the passion, of the God’s voice—to near perfection—even as the meanings that make up true sorcery escape them
Quote from: H
I think Kellhus might be wrong, in the sense that Cishaurim blind themselves not to see more, but to literally see less.  The world itself is vulgar in the sense and the Onta is pure, so they see only the purity of their own intention and intuition, not the contradiction between the world they know and the world they see.
There may be a hint there, when we think about how Bakker's personal godlessness applies to a universe where a god exists. It may be that the Cishaurim study very little if any of their own powers, because it is borne of faith - which is to say, something that is not at all studied, but merely accepted as is, and that the most powerful Cish are those utterly willing to accept without analyzing even slightly.  The 'meanings that make up true sorcery escape them' because anything more analytical would, by the nature of observation and consideration, diminish the strength of their sorcery. To consider is to diminish.  Moenghus cannot help but to see, even blinded, the mechanisms that allow the Water to flow, and so he is restricted to the most nuanced applications.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 14, 2015, 12:57:30 pm
The fact that Moe can use Water at all is also part of what makes me seriously doubt it's Divine source.  If Moe can use it, having no faith, and Titirga, who literally worships Oblivion, might even have used it, it can't actually be anything truly Divine.  Yet, I am still betting it is still linked to Divinity, literally being the 'stuff of the divine.'  We know so little of Fane's story, but we are presented with it as, he was blinded in the desert, which lead him to find the Solitary God, or, I would believe, create the Solitary God.

So, blindness gives you a better view of the Onta?  The Onta is the 'stuff of Divinity' and/or is Water?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 14, 2015, 04:04:28 pm
So, blindness gives you a better view of the Onta?  The Onta is the 'stuff of Divinity' and/or is Water?

Based on the RSB quote below (italics mine), it might be the opposite:

Quote
Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning...

Blindness allows practitioners to see through the Onta (the "what") and grasp the "how" (the Divine). 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 14, 2015, 05:11:33 pm
I thought the blinding to the what was the blinding to the physical world and the how they saw was the Onta...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 14, 2015, 06:53:15 pm
Ah, gotcha!

In reading up on the Onta, I discovered that it's believed to be the secular analogue to animas, the "moving force of all existance, often analogized as the 'breath of God'". 

We (or maybe just I) don't know how the Onta relates to the physical world exactly.  But could be as simple as: Sorcery directly affects the physical world and in the process, damages the Onta whereas the Psuhke directly affects the Onta and thereby modifies the physical world in the "right" way.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 14, 2015, 08:13:48 pm
Yeah, that is basically how I think I had it in my head.  That somehow, the Onta and the physical world are like separate, but connected 'layers.'  The Anagogis perhaps modifies the Onta through the physical world, while the Psûkhe modifies the physical world through the Onta?

That does make me question how a Chorae works though, since in my head I had what was the (certainly mistaken) idea that it 'locked' in place both layers, in relation to each other, i.e. if both frames don't match, nothing will happen.  Perhaps that does still sort of work, even if it most certainly is a fundamentally flawed idea.


Actually, wait, what if the Onta is simply what everything is comprised of?  Then there is no difference between the physical world and the Onta, the former is just the tangible aspect of the latter.  What is difference is the frame of reference.  For the few, they see both the tangible and the fundamental at the same time.  I guess a real-world analogy would be like seeing both as we see now and the quantum-mechanical nature of everything, at the same time.

Perhaps the Mark is the soul's inability to resolve what is and what should be.  So changes to the Onta, to the sighted, are fundamentally wrong, because both frames of reference do not match.  While blind to the tangible, the Cishaurim suffer no dichotomy.  Their soul only 'sees' what should be.  Perhaps this is why it is magic of 'passion?'  Because you must truly believe that what you do is 'how it should be.'

...I'm not even sure what I'm talking about now...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on July 20, 2015, 11:45:05 pm
People have been discussing this of late, so I think it is time to reboot this thread.

Let's start with the idea, is Water itself Divine?

It seems like it, since Water doesn't leave a Mark.  However, if that is true, then all Cishaurim are Divine workers.  This doesn't seem correct to me, visa vis, Moe, who despite zero spirituality, can wield the Water nearly as well as anyone.  Also, confounding this, is what is revealed in The False Sun, that Titirga basically can wield the Water, at least in some rudimentary form.  He is also with any, seemingly, Divinity or even Divine guidance.

I think the connection between Water and the Divine is the opposite?  Water isn't Divine.  Divinity flows from Water, so to speak?

I need to think more on that, I am sort of rambling now...

this is cool H!  a possibility: the Water is the harnessed Space Between the Gods?  while we're at it, perhaps the Nonmen and the Cishaurim are worshiping the same thing: the Solitary God is the field that makes the fragments of god possible?  using the Water might be literally spilling God onto the world...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 21, 2015, 11:41:37 am
It certainly is possible, but the Space Between the Gods is described as Oblivion.  Now, that itself really doesn't prove anything, because it is also described as a way to achieve Oblivion, so Water could certainly be the "stuff of the Outside."

This rabbit hole is very deep and we're almost totally in the dark.  The more I think about it, the less I feel I understand, which I think it's what Scott was looking to do...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on July 21, 2015, 04:46:53 pm
Stare deeply into the abyss.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 21, 2015, 05:35:28 pm
Stare deeply into the abyss.

I might not come back out.

Thing is we know so very little about the Onta, so guessing how it is modified is really tough...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Seökti on July 26, 2015, 02:06:35 pm
My interest in the subject was piqued by what Bakker had said in an interview on Pat's Fantasy Hotlist:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

"Unlike the Gnosis or Anagnosis, Psukhe seems to have come from humans directly(instead of Nonmen). Did the nonmen ever have anything to do with Psukhe? Did humans prior to Fane have anything to do with Psukhe?

Prior to Fane, the Psukhe as an arcane art was unknown, though there are legendary hints and mythic innuendos of certain sightless individuals harnessing inexplicable powers in moments of extraordinary anguish.

Everything comes down to meaning in Eärwa. Where sorcery is representational, utilizing either the logical form (as with the Gnosis) or the material content (as with the Anagogis) of meaning to leverage transformations of reality, the Psukhe utilizes the impetus. Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning–the music, the passion, or as the Cishaurim call it, the ‘Water.’ As a contemporary philosopher might say, the Psukhe is noncognitive, it has no truck with warring versions of reality, which is why it possesses no Mark and remains invisible to the Few.

This is why the Psukhe never occurred to any of the other more ancient arcane traditions. As the old saying goes, the man with a hammer thinks every problem is a nail. For the bulk of Eärwa’s history, it’s very possibility remained invisible."

For me the suggestion is that the Cishaurim aren't even really sorcerers in the proper sense, instead they come off as something more like a topos.  They train themselves to become fissures in reality allowing the outside to literally spill in.  If sorcery describes what the world is, the psukhe describes why the world is.  This also explains why it turns on emotion as opposed to abstraction, it harnesses the impetus as Bakker says - the reasons why, the intensity of that impulse translating into greater or lesser 'channeling' of the outside.  It also would be markless, as it does not transform or interpret reality but instead offers an alternative reality altogether.  It brings an internal world to a screeching out of body present.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Seökti on July 26, 2015, 02:07:36 pm
The question for me then becomes one of methodology: how do the Cishaurim train themselves to do this?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 27, 2015, 03:20:50 pm
As a contemporary philosopher might say, the Psukhe is noncognitive, it has no truck with warring versions of reality, which is why it possesses no Mark and remains invisible to the Few.

That's a great good catch there, nice find.

For me the suggestion is that the Cishaurim aren't even really sorcerers in the proper sense, instead they come off as something more like a topos.  They train themselves to become fissures in reality allowing the outside to literally spill in.  If sorcery describes what the world is, the psukhe describes why the world is.  This also explains why it turns on emotion as opposed to abstraction, it harnesses the impetus as Bakker says - the reasons why, the intensity of that impulse translating into greater or lesser 'channeling' of the outside.  It also would be markless, as it does not transform or interpret reality but instead offers an alternative reality altogether.  It brings an internal world to a screeching out of body present.

I'm not sure, I actually have a really hard time squaring the metaphysics, myself.  I think that we can't discount the blindness as a major part of why the Psukhe is what it is, i.e. Markless.  There is no doubt in my mind that the blindness "unharnesses" the Water, but is also part and parcel of it's metaphysical nature.

There is also the difficulty of why, if it works on the Onta at a fundimentally different level, why to Chorae work on it just the same?

The question for me then becomes one of methodology: how do the Cishaurim train themselves to do this?

Well, since Scott said it is non-cognitive, I don't think you really learn it, you just do it.  Perhaps born of need, not of want.  We actually don't even know of Cishaurim are even of the Few.  My guess is that they are not.  They are probably picked as the most faithful, i.e. most able to focus their passion and believe it the (Solitary) God's.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 27, 2015, 05:13:49 pm
I'm not sure, I actually have a really hard time squaring the metaphysics, myself.  I think that we can't discount the blindness as a major part of why the Psukhe is what it is, i.e. Markless.  There is no doubt in my mind that the blindness "unharnesses" the Water, but is also part and parcel of it's metaphysical nature.

The biggest thing that bothers me about the blinding is why do the Cishaurim stop at sight?  If the goal of blinding is to decrease one's perception of representation, wouldn't removing other senses only serve to increase this effect?   Why is sight so important?

One answer is rooted in distinguishing characteristic of the Few: the ability to "see" the Onta.  While Achamian describes it as having been "experienced" rather than simply seen, the description reads like an enlightened form of sight. 

It could be that the Cishaurim are of the Few and can perceive the Onta.  But because the representational experience is an outgrowth literal sight, it effectively masks the performative experience.  It's only in the absence of the representational experience (in a permanent sense) that they can tap into the other.   Note that this line of reasoning also has the side-bonus of explaining why the Cish are one-hit-killed by Chorae.

I like Seokti's conception of the Cishaurim as "rift mages" who expose fissures between the physical world and... something.  I'm not super-comfortable calling it the Outside.  Although the Gods seem to be able to meddle in the physical world without consequence.  So maybe bringing in the Outside isn't a "Markable" offense to Earwan metaphysics?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on July 27, 2015, 05:27:46 pm
Do we have any evidence that Cishaurim can 'see' the Few or the Mark?

I think there is something important about sight, so that's why it takes blindness specifically.  I think it has to do with, as you point out, the connection between the Few 'seeing' the Onta and their ability to work sorcery.

I think the whole philosophical difference between why there is such a difference between the 'passion' based and 'linguistic' based sorcery might be a bit over my head though.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 27, 2015, 07:52:24 pm
Quote
I think the whole philosophical difference between why there is such a difference between the 'passion' based and 'linguistic' based sorcery might be a bit over my head though.
Yeah, it's really hard to pin down.

The way I've conceived it is an adaption of St. Thomas Aquinas' proof for the existence of God.  The first part, "Argument from Motion", expands on Aristotle's notion of a "prime mover", the idea of a single inciting force for all motion in creation; in Aquinas' proof, the "inciting force" is God. 

This specific line stands out as applicable to the difference between sorcery and the Psukhe:

Quote
For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality.

It could be that in Earwa, "motion" is impetus and "actuality" is representation. So the Cishaurim effectively channel "the stuff of Creation", that which causes things to be come. 

Not sure if it's right at all.  But it seems along the lines of what might happen if a philospher wrote a fantasy series.  8)

Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on July 28, 2015, 12:22:08 am
Cishaurim are the breath of Aslan and sorcerers are the white witch's wand?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on July 28, 2015, 02:18:51 pm
Cishaurim are the breath of Aslan and sorcerers are the white witch's wand?
LOL, something like that, locke. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on August 02, 2015, 03:53:46 pm
Something interesting I came across while reading about Inrilatas:

Quote
She had prayed for the passing of her fertility during this time, for what the Nansur called meseremta, the "dry season."  But Yatwer's Water continued to flow..."

In this context, the Water is cast as a blessing.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoffrobro on August 02, 2015, 09:31:21 pm
Something interesting I came across while reading about Inrilatas:

Quote
She had prayed for the passing of her fertility during this time, for what the Nansur called meseremta, the "dry season."  But Yatwer's Water continued to flow..."

In this context, the Water is cast as a blessing.

to me that meant vaginal fluid or the ability to have children. before the twins were born Esmi didnot want anymore but she still could produce. (idk how to female body works lol)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Alia on August 03, 2015, 07:14:12 am
It's very simple for me, Yatwer's Water is a poetic metaphor for menstrual blood. No ovulation = no menstruation = no fertility.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on August 03, 2015, 11:45:14 am
Yeah, that's what I would have read that as too.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: profgrape on August 03, 2015, 04:10:31 pm
My hangup is all about RSB's use of Water as a proper noun.  Why why why have two different uses of Water?  C'mon, Scott...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2015, 05:03:45 pm
My hangup is all about RSB's use of Water as a proper noun.  Why why why have two different uses of Water?  C'mon, Scott...
Because its not fun if its simple ;).

Quote
I think the whole philosophical difference between why there is such a difference between the 'passion' based and 'linguistic' based sorcery might be a bit over my head though.
Yeah, it's really hard to pin down.

The way I've conceived it is an adaption of St. Thomas Aquinas' proof for the existence of God.  The first part, "Argument from Motion", expands on Aristotle's notion of a "prime mover", the idea of a single inciting force for all motion in creation; in Aquinas' proof, the "inciting force" is God. 

This specific line stands out as applicable to the difference between sorcery and the Psukhe:

Quote
For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality.

It could be that in Earwa, "motion" is impetus and "actuality" is representation. So the Cishaurim effectively channel "the stuff of Creation", that which causes things to be come. 

Not sure if it's right at all.  But it seems along the lines of what might happen if a philospher wrote a fantasy series.  8)



This, coupled with the quote from bakker cited earlier, is... well I want it to be helpful, but its generally over my head. I'll stick with emotions vs. logic, and be happy with that I think.

I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas.

It is noteworthy that all other known sorceries were developed by the Nonmen in some way, tangentially or directly, other than the Cish, and potentially the Shamens of yore.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: rnblut on August 03, 2015, 07:31:39 pm
Regarding this from Wilshire:

"I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas."

But they "salt" like the Few.  Maybe we need more discussion about what "salting" is all about, if the Cish are not the Few?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 03, 2015, 07:52:12 pm
I dont see it as conflicting that the Psukari are affected by chorae in the same way as other sorcerers. The difference between thaumaturgy and sorcery is the source of where the magic comes from, specifically, thaumaturgy coming from a god of some kind, while sorcery does not. However, in both instances, both are still 'using' 'magic', and the chorae are decidedly an anti-magic force.

This sparked a thought on chorae that I haven't seen brought up. Somewhere its mentioned that the chorae is kind of a semantic foil to sorcery, in that it creates and/or unravels the paradox that sorcery creates. I find it odd that the chorae should work on a magic that is based on emotion, which is illogical and language-less,  as it does with sorcery, which in all forms is a logic/language based phenomenon.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on August 03, 2015, 09:14:02 pm
It's very simple for me, Yatwer's Water is a poetic metaphor for menstrual blood. No ovulation = no menstruation = no fertility.
The corollary is that cishaurim dispense menstrual blood from their foreheads.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: locke on August 03, 2015, 09:15:24 pm
Regarding this from Wilshire:

"I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas."

But they "salt" like the Few.  Maybe we need more discussion about what "salting" is all about, if the Cish are not the Few?
Cishaurim don't salt.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: rnblut on August 03, 2015, 09:47:21 pm
Old Moe salted and he was certainly Cishaurim.

Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: themerchant on August 03, 2015, 11:47:53 pm
Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoffrobro on August 03, 2015, 11:52:06 pm
 :-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2015, 12:07:58 am
:-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?

Now that sir is very interesting! Also no mention of salting neither. I seem to remember the consensus that the Cish kinda flash out of existence.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2015, 12:12:03 am
Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.

No, because he needed Cnaüir strength to transfer his soul either into Cnauir or whoever the hell Meppa was. Clearly, IMHO, the chorae being used on Moe by Cnaüir was no accident. That was planned.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Somnambulist on August 04, 2015, 12:54:53 am
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2015, 01:03:37 am
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Not taking anything away from your post, because you make some great points. Just, go back and read when Moe and Cnaüir meet after Kellhus knifes him. You don't think Moe wasn't expecting Cnaüir? I do. I think it was all part of the plan. That's why he doesn't flinch at the chorae. He's embraced what has to be done, as all Dûnyain would do. You can't convince me otherwise that Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa isn't true. Is there any memories left from them? No. Its the combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion that makes Meppa as powerful as he is. And furthers the theory that Moe was just a pawn of someone else. Seswatha in my opinion, but who knows.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2015, 03:00:54 am
Regarding this from Wilshire:

"I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas."

But they "salt" like the Few.  Maybe we need more discussion about what "salting" is all about, if the Cish are not the Few?
Cishaurim don't salt.
Yeah they do.
proof: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.30

Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.
The word salt wasn't explicitly mentioned, but he was eviscerated like the rest. See above proof.

TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Interesting idea. I wish we had more to go off of than this crazy scene though to support the claims.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoffrobro on August 04, 2015, 04:38:20 am
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Pg 136 TWP

They walked to elude the companies of crossbowmen they Knew the Inrihi kept behind their lines, armed with the Tears of God. Not one among their number could be risked, not with the Scarlet Spires girding for war-not for any reason. THey were Cishaurim, Indara's Waterbearers, and their breath was more precious then the breath of thousands. They were oasis among men.


They cant see them. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2015, 01:43:12 pm
Not explicitly said that they could feel them, but it might be argued that is in fact how they knew that they were behind the lines. Ambiguous though.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoffrobro on August 04, 2015, 02:06:13 pm
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on August 04, 2015, 02:15:46 pm
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas

I would guess a hollow-point arrow, with the Chorae affixed to it somehow.

I hypothesized once that it would be a trivial matter to collect them after battle, one Sorcerer could easily point out where each was simply by walking around since they could feel their presence.

As for the number, we don't know, but it's several thousand at least.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2015, 02:21:01 pm
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.
This is the more likely explanation.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas
I think they are placed on the tip of the arrow as you suggest.

As for the number of chorae, it might have been mentioned once in the books but I can't recall the number. I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

All that said, its probably best to move the discussion of Chorae to another thread, or a new thread, but not here, as this topic is for Cisharuim.

Chorae topic: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.105
Feel free to make your own as well.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Somnambulist on August 04, 2015, 02:31:39 pm
Quote
They walked to elude the companies of crossbowmen they Knew the Inrihi kept behind their lines, armed with the Tears of God. Not one among their number could be risked, not with the Scarlet Spires girding for war-not for any reason. THey were Cishaurim, Indara's Waterbearers, and their breath was more precious then the breath of thousands. They were oasis among men.

Also in the battle geoffrobro mentioned was this:
Quote
Then a lone rider, a young adept, swept up to one of the sorcerer-priests – and took his head. When the nearest turned his sockets to regard him, only the boy's horse erupted in flame. The young knight tumbled and continued running, his cries shrill, his dead father's Chorae bound to the palm of his hand.
Only then did the Cishaurim realize their mistake – their arrogance.

My bold.  Only then did they realize someone with a Chorae had come among them.  Could be read in such a way as to confirm they cannot see Chorae.

A different part of TTT, in Shimeh again:
Quote
Gasping, Eleazaras glimpsed the giant Yalgrota, soot-blackened and blood-smeared, heaving Fanfarokar into the air by the throat.  The asps flailed. Fist closed about a Chorae, the Thunyeri giant hammered the shaven skull into sopping ruin.

Remember in TJE when Akka was punched in the face by the sranc holding a chorae...  a section of his cheek salted. Fanfarokar (who was a Cish Primary, so very powerful) did not salt when Yalgrota went to work.  Again with the water descriptive 'sopping.'  Even with Yalgrota pounding him to mush, Fanfarokar still would have salted if in fact Cish salt, which it seems they don't.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2015, 02:45:15 pm
I dont think so. If it were a Bashrag with a chorae and not a sranc, I imagine Akka would be a sodden mess as well (btw I edited my previous post with a link to this discussion in another thread).  Akka's cheek had some residual flakes of salt. If you add a hand thats probably double in thickness to surround the chorae, my bet is that there would be no salting at all. Recall that the salting only occurs when the chorae is extremely close. A think hand, imo, is enough of a barrier.

I'll note that the nature and effectiveness of chroae are inconsistent at best, and we only have a close POV of the de minimus effects from Akka, and no real distances are ever measurable. We are talking about the difference in centimeters and there is just no information.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: rnblut on August 04, 2015, 03:09:16 pm
Well I stand corrected on the Cish salting.  Thanks. 
Regarding the Chorae, I don't think we have an adequate explanation why it would work on both Cish and Sorcerers.  The chorae may be anti-magic, but as a tear of god they appear to be mostly anti-sorcerer (who are damned).  If Cish are clerical and act (I don't remember the precise wording) with the god then they should not be affected at all by chorae.  Let me know if this has been covered elsewhere int he forum.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2015, 03:34:57 pm
I just remember reading the older threads over at Westeros before I started posting and they had went over in detail all of the times the Cish were hit with chorae. And they never salted, more like poof their gone. That's what I recall. And I'm sure there is discussions on the board here about it.


ETA:sorry Wilshire, didn't see your link
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MSJ on August 04, 2015, 03:41:45 pm
:-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?

Now that sir is very interesting! Also no mention of salting neither. I seem to remember the consensus that the Cish kinda flash out of existence.

Geoffrobro, this interests me about Cnaüir seeing his god, ergo the No-God. And I've been thinking on it and the only thing that hangs this up, is that The Consult was initially warring with The Cishaurim, right? The Cish were uncovering their skin-spies and they wanted them destroyed. Maybe its just as simple as Cnaüir seen the God and realized that. Maybe it had nothing to do with the No-God, but man it interesting. My head is swimming over the idea of it.

Oh, and hell, I'm ignoring one of your best points. Moe's eyes flashed with white.....huh. That's never been described in relation with the Psukhe. Man, I need to go digging here.

You know, with the eyes lighting up and Moe being described as a corpse, it almost as if he isn't a Cishaurim. He truly isn't a Cishaurim because he doesn't have the passion/faith in order to bear the Water. He even says that he could only do rudimentary things with the Psukhe. And that's why he needed Cnaüir. There's definitely more here, just need to flesh it out
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2015, 07:08:06 pm
Well I stand corrected on the Cish salting.  Thanks. 
Regarding the Chorae, I don't think we have an adequate explanation why it would work on both Cish and Sorcerers.  The chorae may be anti-magic, but as a tear of god they appear to be mostly anti-sorcerer (who are damned).  If Cish are clerical and act (I don't remember the precise wording) with the god then they should not be affected at all by chorae.  Let me know if this has been covered elsewhere int he forum.


I'll try to keep this tied tot eh Cish so I don't put my foot in my mouth ;).

I agree that IF the Cish are Holy and IF the chorae work via some damnation channel, then it wouldnt make sense that they destroy all sorcerers. However, since we know that the Cish are effected by the chorae and that their works are affected the same way as other sorcery, can can conclude that: Either the Cish and their works are not Holy or that the Chorae do not work via some damnnation mechanism.

It is my belief that the Fanim and their clerics, the Cishaurim, have/had a more accurate belief system, meaning they worship something closer to what the actual nature of the outside is... Or at least there is some truth in their Solitary God and the belief that the Cish are holy because they work magic without a mark. Because of this, I would then rule out my first explanation above, and conclude that the chorae must work through some means other than damnation/redemption. I'll further go on to say that sorcery itself is not a damned thing, and therefore the Mark that the practitioners bare, is indication of damnation.

So the Mark, chorae machinations, and the nature/divinity of the Psukhe , while intertwined, do not necessarily all have the same explanation. This would help explain why there is a lot of conflicting information, a knot tied with several different pieces of rope.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on August 04, 2015, 08:56:39 pm
Either the Cish and their works are not Holy or that the Chorae do not work via some damnnation mechanism.

I actually think that both of these things are not true.

I do not buy the Psukhe as divine, nor Water as divine either.  If Moe can use it, if Titurga could use it, I do not believe that Water is divine, or given from the divine.  In fact, I am inclined to believe the opposite, that Fane didn't find Water through the Solitary God, but that he found the Solitary God through Water.  While Fane didn't create Water, he did create the Solitary God.

I think that the Chorae are paradoxes that unravel paradox, which of course is a paradox, which makes perfect sense, in the sense that it makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Triskele on August 07, 2015, 07:15:23 pm
I am damn curious if we'll ever get more of an explanation of how Fane discovered the Water.  I'm curious about the "how" in contrast to the how of the Quyan sorcery the origins of which seem more like learning about physics. 
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Simas Polchias on August 25, 2015, 12:18:33 am
All that said, its probably best to move the discussion of Chorae to another thread, or a new thread, but not here, as this topic is for Cisharuim.
Chorae topic: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.105
Feel free to make your own as well.
See you there!
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: MG on October 13, 2015, 02:04:07 pm
can't remember if we covered this--that old blind man who accosted Kellhus, maybe he walked the Cishaurim version of the Shadow Way?

and who knows?  maybe that fucker was Seokti or even Moe in like a false body or something.  maybe Cishaurim have the ability to animate/possess any blind person anywhere

CISHAURIM SYNTHESE
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: H on October 13, 2015, 05:20:37 pm
can't remember if we covered this--that old blind man who accosted Kellhus, maybe he walked the Cishaurim version of the Shadow Way?

and who knows?  maybe that fucker was Seokti or even Moe in like a false body or something.  maybe Cishaurim have the ability to animate/possess any blind person anywhere

CISHAURIM SYNTHESE

I always thought that the Old Man was Moe, telling him where he was hiding...
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: geoffrobro on May 28, 2016, 05:17:37 pm
How do the cish fly/walk on air. Isn't that a spell that cause damnation or a mark? It's a spell all the schools use
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Somnambulist on May 28, 2016, 06:26:25 pm
As far as we know, the Psukhe is a form of sorcery, in effect allowing the Cishaurim to achieve similar effects as the Anagogic and Gnostic Schools, including 'walking the skies.'  So, as far as damnation goes, it's part of their metaphysics that they aren't marked, just like any other use of the Psukhe.

However, you bring up an interesting point I've had some thoughts about.  In TWP, when the Cishaurim is approaching Kellhus on the rooftop, he is described as kind of zig-zagging through the streets, with his toes pointed down.  No mention of walking the sky like other sorcerers, and the description doesn't mention walking, striding, stepping, etc.  Almost like he was actually flying, which is supposed to be impossible, as other sorceries allow them to only walk the echo of the earth in the sky.  So, do Cishaurim actually fly?
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 04:10:53 pm
Maybe the water allows them to float ;)
Title: Re: Cishaurim
Post by: Somnambulist on May 31, 2016, 04:12:34 pm
Maybe the water allows them to float ;)

Touché!