The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:17:39 pm

Title: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:17:39 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Not quite sure if this has already been discussed here, I know I've seen somthing similar on other forums but I couldn't find it here. What is the significance of the way that Mimara's PoV is written? Has there been a conclusion as to why its written in a present tense, while the rest of the PoV's are written as if being recalled?

Also, can anyone point me to anywhere else where this kind of present tense is used throughout the series? I was pretty sure Yatwer's PoV (it was her right?) in the WLW was like this but I can't be sure.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:17:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
Well, the examples you cite suggest that Mimara's POV reflects that of the White-Luck Warrior and Yatwer.

Mimara actually has very few POV's over the course of TAE in comparison to Achamian, Sorweel, or Esmenet. At times, I thought Bakker simply chose the first person view to facilitate the tension and action during such sequences, which works well, but I'd say that he's holding on to some cards still concerning Mimara.

For instance, in her very first POV in TJE, she comments that sometimes she imagines the World with its own living magic to it, which she compares and discredits to sorcery.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:17:57 pm
Quote from: themerchant
Just to add in something which may or may not be of interest/relevance.

Re-reading the end of WLW last night and during the scene with Gailan where she is looking into him and seeing his damnation etc, she sees a "fiery halo"above him, is Kellhus's ever described as fiery,  she sees Gailans' in the context of his damnation.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:04 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
I don't think I noticed that. How is, for example, is an Akka POV a recalled one?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
Present tense (Mimara, WLW, Yatwer) vs. Past tense (Achamian - pretty much everyone else).
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:21 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Well maybe I'm just not as literature savvy as some, but to me all the WLW sections are written in the past tense.

Take this for example:
"The room was little more than a cellar, even though it hung some four storeys above the alleyway. The plaster had sloughed from the walls, leaving bare stretches of cracked brick."

Isn't that past tense like everyone else? The only portions of the WLW that isn't like that is when he "sees" himself in the future. All of the discernible 'current' WLW scenes are past tense.
If not then could someone explain that more fully.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:32 pm
Quote from: Madness
It's the difference between "He walked into the room and grabbed his keys" (Past Tense) vs. "He walks into the room and grabs his keys." (Present Tense), Wilshire.

It's a technical distinction in writing - some authors just refute structural holds we condone and write however they want. Bakker is, pretty clearly, using it to distinguish something.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:41 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
How about a more direct example of of it with the WLW. I understand the mechanics and that its meaningful (obviously, or i wouldnt have bothered askin) but i dont see it in the writing.

"He heard the people talking in the streets, voice piled upon voice, and he had difficulty sorting reasons form conclusions" -wlw 498
"Sometimes he gazed out the lone window..." -498
"He heard the horns call, realized what he had always known" -498
"He almost stepped upon it then thousand times" -498

Don't all those represent past tense? While Mimara's sections, every line is most obviously present tense
"She unties the laces of her jacket"
She unlaces her leather breeches"
"Motionless the scalpers gaze."
"Even Koll ... watches with licentious fury"

Though maybe I'm just cherry picking section, but at least to me the WLW seem decidedly not present, except, like I said above, when he's seeing the future rather than the current time.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:18:52 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Well, the examples you cite suggest that Mimara's POV reflects that of the White-Luck Warrior and Yatwer.

Mimara actually has very few POV's over the course of TAE in comparison to Achamian, Sorweel, or Esmenet. At times, I thought Bakker simply chose the first person view to facilitate the tension and action during such sequences, which works well, but I'd say that he's holding on to some cards still concerning Mimara.

For instance, in her very first POV in TJE, she comments that sometimes she imagines the World with its own living magic to it, which she compares and discredits to sorcery.
Mimara has relatively few POVs in TJE, until Cil Aujus.  then she's the POV covering almost the entirety of that chapter (since Akka is unconscious for most of the battle). 

In WLW here POVs outnumber Akka and everyone else, she's the primary viewpoint of the novel.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:19:00 pm
Quote from: Madness
Well, lockesnow, I'm gonna go count words at some point. I feel like she feels very primary because she is new rather than actually having the most word count, or primary perspective.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:19:09 pm
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: Wilshire
How about a more direct example of of it with the WLW. I understand the mechanics and that its meaningful (obviously, or i wouldnt have bothered askin) but i dont see it in the writing.

"He heard the people talking in the streets, voice piled upon voice, and he had difficulty sorting reasons form conclusions" -wlw 498
"Sometimes he gazed out the lone window..." -498
"He heard the horns call, realized what he had always known" -498
"He almost stepped upon it then thousand times" -498

Don't all those represent past tense? While Mimara's sections, every line is most obviously present tense
"She unties the laces of her jacket"
She unlaces her leather breeches"
"Motionless the scalpers gaze."
"Even Koll ... watches with licentious fury"

Though maybe I'm just cherry picking section, but at least to me the WLW seem decidedly not present, except, like I said above, when he's seeing the future rather than the current time.

Interesting point, I think Bakker definitely has something going on with that, but I don't know what. I assume it's tied to her Judging Eye (the God judges/exists the present at all times?)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:19:16 pm
Quote from: SkiesOfAzel
Maybe it has to do with the fact tha she has the JE? The JE resides outside of time according to Akka.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:19:25 pm
Quote from: Madness
Wilshire and I had rehashed this in another thread but I was definitely mistaken. However, Mimara and Yatwer's perspectives are unequivocally present tense. Why is the Warrior's not? Why is Mimara's?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 15, 2014, 06:21:48 pm
I had never considered the *tense* of Mimara's POV's--going to have to reread!

Came to this thread to post--just realized, it doesn't seem impossible that Akka IS Mimara's dad.  He fails to see Esmi at the end of TDTCB and get that guy drunk/high and who knows?  Esmi could have been drunk too, or just doesn't remember because Akka didn't seem memorable at the time, or she keeps it a secret.  Just wondering if incest + pregnant female few = judging eye.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Alia on March 16, 2014, 09:35:13 am
As I wrote in another thread, it does not seem possible, for one reason -  Mimara's looks. TJE, Chapter 14  "For the first time, it seemed, he noticed how much lighter her [Mimara's] skin was than his or her mother's. For the first time he wondered about her real father, about the twist of caprice that had seen her born, rather than aborted by Esmenet's whore-shell." Esmi and Akka were Ketyai and from this passage it seems that Mimara's father must have been a Norsirai.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on March 16, 2014, 09:52:09 am
My best crackpot is that Moe is her father.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Alia on March 16, 2014, 10:30:28 am
Yeah, but how would he get into Sumna with his swazonds? My crackpot is Maithanet.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on March 16, 2014, 10:42:45 am
Maithanet is actually a really good guess. Moenghus the Elder conditioned Kellhus' wife?

And notation, though we also don't know the rules of this mechanism very well, but Moenghus the Elder can use the third category of sorcery, Glamours, to affect the appearance, or perhaps of the physicality, of things...

Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Aural on March 16, 2014, 01:55:10 pm
Seems a bit far fetched. To have conditioned Esmenet so that she ends up Kellhus's wife, he must have conditioned Achamian and the Consult as well.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on March 16, 2014, 02:07:01 pm
Lol nerdanels abound, Nskoghar.

I always wonder whether or not Moenghus' knowledge of Thousandfold Thought includes a Mandati following the Holy War - Or did Moenghus' probability trance assume that Kellhus would only get the Anagogis from the Scarlet Spires?

But Moenghus must have wondered, even anticipated, how the Consult might react to any of his preparations for Kellhus.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 16, 2014, 02:21:05 pm
@ Alia - I remember now, you did point that out!  So Mimara's dad must Norsirai.  I guess it could be another Dunyain agent at large.  I'm going blank--are the Scylvendi also fair?

Maithanet as Mimara's dad?  Does that work out time-wise?

@ Curethan - Moe as her dad--She is a true Anasurimbor!  When it is revealed that she is the blood of his most hated foe, will Akka turn the gnosis on her?

@ Madness & Nskoghar - In my head it's a competition of unlikelys.  I just find it so enormously unlikely that one and only one woman can produce children for K and that she's in the right place at the right time.  I find it more likely that teams of Cishaurim/Psukhe are operating in shadows (like at Caraskand).

Either that or it's all the gods!  The gods conditioned Esmi and the a god is Mimara's father!


It's Ajokli
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Alia on March 16, 2014, 02:51:05 pm
Scylvendi have fair skins and dark hair - but I don't think it is possible. How would any of them get into Sumna, in the middle of Nansurian Empire? And AFAIR Esmi herself has never left Sumna before deciding to follow Akka.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on March 16, 2014, 03:44:13 pm
And AFAIR Esmi herself has never left Sumna before deciding to follow Akka.

Truth.

But Esmenet does recall a penchant for Norsirai men... and Norsirai and Scylvendi are the only fair-skinned tribes.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Alia on March 16, 2014, 04:06:32 pm
So, I think it's highly probable (and also feasible) that Mimara's father was a Norsirai. Scylvendi - not so much.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on March 16, 2014, 11:09:02 pm
Esmenet may not be as low caste as she thinks. Her mother was a witch, afterall--perhaps a very prominent or powerful witch--and dunyain persuasion could have led to Esmenet's path to Sumna and becoming a prostitute there being conditioned.  It seems unlikely that her mother would not teach Esmenet, risks be damned, such knowledge has to be fiercely protected, highly secretive and valuable and naturally matrilineal, in not teaching her, her mother is not just protecting her, she is letting down her own mother and grandmother, she is risking the abandonment of two thousand years or more of ancestors all who passed the knowledge down mother to daughter mother to daughter.

And then there's the name which is the exact name of the wife of the prophet.  Dunyain influence in her naming?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on March 17, 2014, 12:08:09 pm
You know, I never really wonder after Esmenet's past too much. I simply assume that she's not some random - and I really enjoy our "Celmomas' line is preserved through his daughters" thoughts in Last Scion speculation.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 17, 2014, 03:53:09 pm
Straight up crazy--Esmi's mom was simply a Dunyain.  Dunyain have never been so isolated as they conditioned Kellhus to think.  Lots of Ketyai Dunyain in a different part of Ishual/different mountain fortress.  Dunyain & Co run a successful caravan company for whatever news/supplies/bodies they need from the south.  Stop in Atrithau to make it look legit.  :P
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on March 17, 2014, 04:24:16 pm
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 18, 2014, 10:42:06 am
Mimara's father was a Kidruhil, thus probably a Nansur noble and not a Norsirai. If Mimara is an Anasurimbor it's easy to explain why she has lighter skin, the Norsirai genes simply skipped a generation.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 18, 2014, 12:38:57 pm
Esmenet may not be as low caste as she thinks. Her mother was a witch, afterall--perhaps a very prominent or powerful witch--and dunyain persuasion could have led to Esmenet's path to Sumna and becoming a prostitute there being conditioned.  It seems unlikely that her mother would not teach Esmenet, risks be damned, such knowledge has to be fiercely protected, highly secretive and valuable and naturally matrilineal, in not teaching her, her mother is not just protecting her, she is letting down her own mother and grandmother, she is risking the abandonment of two thousand years or more of ancestors all who passed the knowledge down mother to daughter mother to daughter.

And then there's the name which is the exact name of the wife of the prophet.  Dunyain influence in her naming?

Reading the future in the stars!  Another science Kellhus would be sure to have figured out completely!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2014, 03:41:25 pm
If astrology is a thing in Earwa, then I think its probably a gift more directly tied to Gods, and not likely to be something one can 'learn'. Like seeing the Onta, except the ability is almost directly tied to being sanctioned by one god or another.

If not, then Kellhus would be able to use this astrological prediction mechanism to provide a counterpoint/affirmation to his Probability Trance/TTT, and this would make him nigh unstoppable and infallible.
I don't like that, so I say he can't learn it because some God won't let him :)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on April 02, 2014, 03:07:50 am
and if Esmenet's mother had taught her, she perhaps could have used her ability to discern the truth or falsity of Kellhus from the stars.  Ergo, the Dunyain conditioning her mother would have to make sure that they broke the matrilineal information sharing and kept Esmenet in ignorance.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on April 02, 2014, 03:21:23 am
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on April 02, 2014, 11:33:52 am
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Scott is a tricky bastard, he has been misdirecting us with all these historical, philosophical and religious references from the very beginning. t's obvious now that his one true influence has always been Beverly Hills 90210.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 02, 2014, 01:47:54 pm
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Nice.  So Cayuti is Kellhus distant cousin?

This whole thing would be simpler if Seswatha was just a witch and Celmomas made a babies with her.  Witches are taboo, so Seswatha edits all the memories and puts them in a mummified heart.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 02, 2014, 02:56:37 pm
Actually, MG, the Last Scion, Celmomas' matrilineal line, etc, stands apart from the Dunyain. Because we can't seem to figure out how the Dunyain are actually the product of Celmomas' line... the Dunyain are the False Line of Anasurimbor (still Anasurimbor but not Celmomas' descendents as our best guess is that Ganrelka is Celmomas' brother, rather than son, making the Dunyain Anasurimbor Bastard, Celmomas' Nephew, not one of his "seed.")

Simple really.  Celmomas was boning Ganrelka's missus whilst Seswatha was boning Celmomas's.

Haha, "simple". Thats an entertaining way to look at it. We know that there was a lot of infidelity,  why not from Celmomas? Assuming he's boning his brother's wife isn't a far leap, and eloquently explains the situation within the bounds we believe the story is operating in.

Not sure if that was suppose to be a joke or not, but either way, very nice :).
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on April 03, 2014, 02:00:18 am
Anasurimbors seem historically disposed towards impregnating other people's spouses, from the first to the latest.

However, the intention seems to be that he was Nau Cayuti's younger brother.  He is mentioned as having been present at the Fields of Eleneot (where Celmomas died) and he was definitely the heir to Kinuiri.  The text also mentions that his uncle was at Ishual (an early victim of the plague).  That kinda points away from him being Celmomas' brother to me.

The fact that he fled to Ishual after the death of Celmomas also presents an obvious explanation as to why the seal on the map case at Sauglish was broken too, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2014, 02:43:17 am
But the north was overrun by then. It is unlikely that he was able to get to the map. But if Ganrelka knew of Ishual, how many knew? I find it hard to believe a secret like that could really be kept by more than one or two people. If all/several Anasurimbor's knew about it, then it wouldn't have survived for so long.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on April 03, 2014, 05:24:26 am
Celmomas fell at the Fields of Eleneot in 2146, Sauglish was overrun in 2147.
Ganrelka likely fell back to Ishual directly after Celmomas died and the might of Kinuiri was broken.  Seswatha could have told him where to find the map; I believe only Celmomas and Seswatha knew of it.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on April 03, 2014, 06:16:17 am
if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on April 03, 2014, 07:06:14 am
if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Not necessarily.  It's in a library that was run by sorcerers and is surrounded by enchantments.  Also, the seal is broken not the map case and again, it's probably enchanted.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.

Sorry, I meant to say Ganrelka is the older brother.  Nau-Cayuti is described as the youngest son of Celmomas, implying elder brothers, which would make one of them the natural successor.

  Celmomas II: 2089-2146
  Ganrelka II: 2104-2147
  Nau-Cayuti: 2119-2140

Which means Celmomas would have been 15 when Ganrelka was born and 30 when Nau-Cayuti was born.  Having a legitimate child at 15 does seem unlikely, but its possible.  Note that Nau-Cayuti was born of Celmomas' favourite wife, Sharal.

There's also the other Anasurimbor line (Mygella and Nimeric) - but Aorsi fell in 2136.  (Mimara could potentially be a scion of that line too.)

Alternatively, Scott just screwed the dates up a bit and it escaped editing.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2014, 01:25:37 pm
Thanks for bringing all those dates to the table, it provides clarity.

if the map case were open, the parchment would have been destroyed from two millenium of deterioration at the hands of the elements.

Not necessarily.  It's in a library that was run by sorcerers and is surrounded by enchantments.  Also, the seal is broken not the map case and again, it's probably enchanted.
Invoking "magic!" here is pretty legitimate, especially considering Celmomas intrusted the map to Seswatha. A simple mundane protection as lame as a seal would not be sufficient to someone of his caliber.

Ganrelka is also older than Nau Cayuti, and was born only fourteen years after Celmomas, iirc. also iirc, Nau Cayuti was born when Celmomas was in his forties.

Sorry, I meant to say Ganrelka is the older brother. 
I made that same mistake. Older brother :P

Which means Celmomas would have been 15 when Ganrelka was born and 30 when Nau-Cayuti was born.  Having a legitimate child at 15 does seem unlikely, but its possible. 
If this was mundane medieval era where the average lifespan wasnt particularly long then I would agree, but its not. We have lots of instances of people living well into their 80's and far beyond. There probably wasn't a huge press to have offspring at such a young age. Like you said, its possible, but I doubt it.

Note that Nau-Cayuti was born of Celmomas' favourite wife, Sharal.
Very important. This points to either polygamous marriages or multiple mistresses, and if the High King has them, then you know others have them as well.

 Depending on what makes the Anasurimbor line special, be it blood (literally blood, or genetics) or the Name itself, "an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" could point to a vast number of people.
There's also the other Anasurimbor line (Mygella and Nimeric) - but Aorsi fell in 2136.  (Mimara could potentially be a scion of that line too.)

Alternatively, Scott just screwed the dates up a bit and it escaped editing.

There are still so many questions, and I would not be surprised if a date got messed up here and there. Its probably difficult to sort through a timeline of 4000+ Earwa years that was developed over 18+ years of Bakker's life.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on April 03, 2014, 03:25:38 pm
I believe Sorweel's chorae comes from the other Anasurimbor line, because it doesn't make sense for it to be from the kuniuri line.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2014, 06:29:23 pm
I find it odd that Sorweel didn't have his own chorae... He was "King" of the chorae horde after all.  Also, other than assuming Yatwer likes irony, why would she give him a chorae owned by an Anasurimbor?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on April 03, 2014, 10:43:57 pm
I doubt the successor kings unit of which Sorweel was a part would be allowed their chorae by the apperati.  They were basically hostages, after all.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 04, 2014, 01:09:02 pm
You're probably right. It isn't like he had a lot of negotiation power, though I'm sure there would have been some pushback if his father was alive. Imagine, the heir apparent of Sakarpus walking around without a chorae. Still unlikely, I concede ;)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 05, 2014, 01:36:22 pm
Lol. Wow. I missed a page of activity :'( ;D.

Some thoughts:

- You are way off-topic ;).
- I think that Future-predicting Astrology could be a real thing in Earwa.
- The argument for bastard-line is that at Celmomas and Seswatha didn't know eachother at the point of Ganrelka's birth... and that Ganrelka could just as easily be Celmomas' brother. Power would still transfer to Ganrelka after Tryse, if Celmomas had no other sons.
- The important thing about Yatwer's Chorae is the pouch :P.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 05, 2014, 07:53:58 pm
- The important thing about Yatwer's Chorae is the pouch :P.

Yeah probably, but we where discuss the chorae itself for some reason. Maybe the pouch is a red herring and the reason Serwa didn't feel the chorae was because the chorae is what's important :O
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 06, 2014, 12:16:18 am
Yatwer's got Sorweel digging up some dinky pouch--TUC will have Onkis giving Akka a two-flower-sapient-wood-frickin-chest-o-choraes.

Seriously though, Sorweel notes that that pouch is undetectable to Serwa, BUT he knows it would play havoc with her sorcery if he tried to bring it to Ishterebinth.  If all that is right, then a sorcerer would have a chance at detecting such a thing before its too late.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2014, 01:35:29 am
Of course. The pouch doesn't dampen the effects of the chorae, but rather just 'hides' it from view. Remember Mimara (on topic :P) had to crouch by Akka's feet to not interrupt his magic and to not destroy the wards. Something like the trasposition cant, which affects the whole person, would be greatly  affected by the chorae.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 06, 2014, 12:37:36 pm
Yeah. What Wilshire wrote.

Well, the Chorae is important for the pouch's concealing. Maybe that's a part of the Warrior's visions we don't see, if after he stabs Kellhus someone Chorae's Kellhus, Cnaiur-style. Maybe even, Moenghus the Younger. Symmetry, you know, like Fathers, like Sons.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2014, 04:49:31 pm
Symmetry, you know, like Fathers, like Sons.
History repeats. If Kellhus fails to rise above the before/after paradigm then he is doomed like all the rest to forever repeat history.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: themerchant on April 07, 2014, 08:38:06 am
I've always thought that Serwe could sense the chorae anyway, that was untill i heard the recounting of some stuff from a TUC reading. which i wont go into on this forum.

Ptsatma comments that Maitha and Kellhus are aware of her, and they collect secret knowledge as par for the course. so i thought that it was all a pantomime for Sorweel benefit, cause Kellhus was aware of what was happening. after all didn't he pick the slave that that turned out to be the catalyst for Sorweels "conversion" to Yatwer?

Weird that the Dunyains give him a slave who happens to be a complete devotee to Yatwer, then he gets shipped off somewhere. Although Serwe might be kept in the dark in the way that Maitha claims he was kept in the dark.

I might be misremembering though, i don't have a copy of WLW anymore, I ordered the one from Canada(came out first) and got it shipped to my house next day for 3 times the cost of the book lol. anyway it's fell to pieces in a way my UK ones never.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2014, 12:11:18 pm
You could be right, but a lot of that is conjecture. We just don't really know enough to say either way. I think Kellhus does, in the very least, suspect some involvement of the Gods, but to what extent he has incorporated them into his plans I have no clue.

It does seem too coincidental that Sorweel just happened to receive the slave that he got, but it is partially explained in the book that most caste-menials worship Yatwer.

If you are looking for a cheap copy of a book to replace your ruined copy, you might try the sites below. I don't know if they ship to wherever you are located, but the books here range from $1 to $5 (USD):
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=white+luck+warrior
http://www.hpbmarketplace.com/The-White-Luck-Warrior-The-Aspect-Emperor-Book-2-R-Scott-Bakker/book/16550805?matches=32
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 07, 2014, 09:31:07 pm
I figured that Yatwer was positioning Prosparian with the same markless magic that Sorweel gets?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 08, 2014, 09:14:45 am
Ptsatma comments that Maitha and Kellhus are aware of her, and they collect secret knowledge as par for the course. so i thought that it was all a pantomime for Sorweel benefit, cause Kellhus was aware of what was happening. after all didn't he pick the slave that that turned out to be the catalyst for Sorweels "conversion" to Yatwer?

Weird that the Dunyains give him a slave who happens to be a complete devotee to Yatwer, then he gets shipped off somewhere. Although Serwe might be kept in the dark in the way that Maitha claims he was kept in the dark.

Yatwer/Nonmen might be an important match for something...
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 08, 2014, 12:11:14 pm
I liked SOA's thing that if the nonman see Yatwer's magic on Sorweel that will confirm to them that the gods oppose Kellhus and that will legitimize Kellhus' task to the false men.

EDIT: crazy--the nonmen worship a very specific space between the gods, the one right between War and Birth?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Somnambulist on April 08, 2014, 05:59:11 pm
Yatwer/Nonmen might be an important match for something...

Could Yatwer be blind to the Nonmen since they don't reproduce anymore?  That could be interesting.  Although I'm not sure I buy my own crazy here, because I think the Inchoroi used the Tekne to initiate the Womb Plague, but how about this:  the Inchoroi enacted an agreement with Yatwer to deny birth to the Nonmen.  I'm not even sure what the implications of that might be.  Crackpot theory #1,756,422.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 08, 2014, 10:48:34 pm
Awesome!  Yatwer and the Inchoroi work together because Yatwer is the Ark's soul!  This doesn't really fit with how scared of damnation they are, so, pttthhhh.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2014, 02:57:38 pm
I think all the gods can still see the Nonmen. The only line we've seen drawn is "intelligence without a soul", pointing to the weapon races. Maybe Yatwer's influence over the Nonmen is hindered by their lack of reproduction, but that would be about it.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 10, 2014, 04:00:34 pm
Yeah. What Wilshire wrote.

Well, the Chorae is important for the pouch's concealing. Maybe that's a part of the Warrior's visions we don't see, if after he stabs Kellhus someone Chorae's Kellhus, Cnaiur-style. Maybe even, Moenghus the Younger. Symmetry, you know, like Fathers, like Sons.

Amazing!  So Young Moe choraes Kellhus *after* someone else stabs him.  We're lead to believe that it's going to be the WLW, but it would be more *symmetrical* if it was one of Kellhus' kids!  Maybe Kayutas has a god hiding the sedition in his face.  But if I have to bet on any of the Anasurimbor's killing Kellhus, it's Kelmomas.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on April 10, 2014, 10:20:23 pm
Yeah. What Wilshire wrote.

Well, the Chorae is important for the pouch's concealing. Maybe that's a part of the Warrior's visions we don't see, if after he stabs Kellhus someone Chorae's Kellhus, Cnaiur-style. Maybe even, Moenghus the Younger. Symmetry, you know, like Fathers, like Sons.

Amazing!  So Young Moe choraes Kellhus *after* someone else stabs him.  We're lead to believe that it's going to be the WLW, but it would be more *symmetrical* if it was one of Kellhus' kids!  Maybe Kayutas has a god hiding the sedition in his face.  But if I have to bet on any of the Anasurimbor's killing Kellhus, it's Kelmomas.

Well yeah, if the religious/mythological trope is father sacrifices son (god / jesus, odin / baldur) to invert the trope would be son sacrifices father (Kellhus / moenghus, Kelmomas / Kellhus)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 12, 2014, 12:09:17 pm
Lol - nerdanel any way you like but to be clear I intended to draw an analogy between Moenghus the Elder/Cnaiur and Kellhus/Moenghus the Younger.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 12, 2014, 08:17:10 pm
Lol - nerdanel any way you like but to be clear I intended to draw an analogy between Moenghus the Elder/Cnaiur and Kellhus/Moenghus the Younger.

I don't suspect Young Moe, he seems to sold on the Purpose!  I think Kellhus would have taken extra special care to condition him...
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2014, 12:26:56 pm
Lol - nerdanel any way you like but to be clear I intended to draw an analogy between Moenghus the Elder/Cnaiur and Kellhus/Moenghus the Younger.

I don't suspect Young Moe, he seems to sold on the Purpose!  I think Kellhus would have taken extra special care to condition him...

Maybe, but Kellhus was also at a tumultuous time. He was waging war against all of the Three-Seas, and he was only just appointed emperor when the baby was born. He might have have had as much time child rearing as you might think, especially for a non-dunyain child. If he let Kelmomas slip though the cracks, then its possible the Moe the Younger did as well.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 26, 2014, 02:19:26 pm
I like it, Sorweel's POV on Moe will reveal the motive!

Unrelated: I like Young Moe and want to see him play a big part in TUC because he's the son of many-blooded Cnaiur.  BUT, he's also the son of sweet, vapid, manipulable Serwe and I wonder how much of his mother's weaknesses (or strengths?) he has.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 28, 2014, 12:53:41 pm
Lol - Serwe is apparently one of the most important characters to the series. It is known. But how, why? These are the questions that torment me in my sleep. Why would Bakker, of all people, prize ignorance?!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on April 29, 2014, 11:35:01 pm
Lol, poor young Moe, he's exposed to conditioning from his dad, Kayutas, Serwa, Maithanet...Inrilatas and Kelmomas too?  Perhaps THIS is what would make Moe a wild card--too many people manipulating him made him somehow resistant to all of them.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on April 30, 2014, 12:20:34 pm
I'm starting to wonder if we take tangenting too far. Are we running mad with the lack of many participants keeping us to task?

I'm fairly certain that Moenghus the Younger has read the Compendium because then he would understand his true heritage and that his whole life is a lie.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on May 02, 2014, 02:30:12 am
Lol - Serwe is apparently one of the most important characters to the series. It is known. But how, why? These are the questions that torment me in my sleep. Why would Bakker, of all people, prize ignorance?!
Need answers.
I'm starting to wonder if we take tangenting too far. Are we running mad with the lack of many participants keeping us to task?

I'm fairly certain that Moenghus the Younger has read the Compendium because then he would understand his true heritage and that his whole life is a lie.
Most definitely yes. MG certainly isn't helping. He's got some of the craziest ideas out here. Where are those who are sober! Answer, like opium...
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Madness on May 05, 2014, 01:19:28 pm
Where are those who are sober! Answer, like opium...

Definitely not here ;).
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 05, 2014, 08:37:47 pm
:(  sorry!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Garet Jax on May 24, 2014, 05:10:45 pm
Is it said or implied why Mimara shaves her head on the slog of slogs?

Or has it been speculated on somewhere that I have missed?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on May 24, 2014, 08:58:35 pm
Think it is to look more like a non woman.
 Iirc, she also sees her head shaved when she sees her reflection in water with JE open - then shaves it a chapter or two later.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Garet Jax on May 25, 2014, 01:02:57 am
Think it is to look more like a non woman.
 Iirc, she also sees her head shaved when she sees her reflection in water with JE open - then shaves it a chapter or two later.

Right. (I thought that she didn't shave her head until WLW)  But to what end other than helping Cleric "remember" her?  Just seemed a little to hasty, in the scene that she does it, if that was her only goal.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on May 25, 2014, 04:54:37 am
She shaves her head in WLW ch12, in front of Cleric.  It's part of her attempt to subvert the Captain's influence of the nonman - after Sarl and the Captain discover who she is, report to Kellhus and tie up Akka.

She sees herself with short hair and heavily pregnant in WLW ch6, just after first learning that she is pregnant.  The JE seems to transcend time.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on May 26, 2014, 03:05:44 am
She sees herself with short hair and heavily pregnant in WLW ch6, just after first learning that she is pregnant.  The JE seems to transcend time.

That is troublesome to me. Might it be that the damnation that it apparently sees is the subjects end-of-life damnation. The sum of all the decision they have made and what they will make. So for example, akka is damned as viewed by TJE, but he may not yet have committed the act/acts that got him to that point.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 27, 2014, 04:16:37 am
She sees herself with short hair and heavily pregnant in WLW ch6, just after first learning that she is pregnant.  The JE seems to transcend time.

That is troublesome to me. Might it be that the damnation that it apparently sees is the subjects end-of-life damnation. The sum of all the decision they have made and what they will make. So for example, akka is damned as viewed by TJE, but he may not yet have committed the act/acts that got him to that point.

WOAH!!!  That blew my mind.  Akka's Judas deed is still in front of him?!?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on May 27, 2014, 06:14:47 am
There is a reason Akka blames himself for the death of Inrau and the Skin Eaters...

It's probably some kind of sin to impregnate your wife's daughter, too.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on May 29, 2014, 02:35:00 am
Ha, I just thought.
If Mimarra sees Kellhus is damned then he will know what she sees and switch sides?

It would freak him out if he believes his own shtick - could he rationalize that, I wonder?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 29, 2014, 03:09:29 am
Ha, I just thought.
If Mimarra sees Kellhus is damned then he will know what she sees and switch sides?

It would freak him out if he believes his own shtick - could he rationalize that, I wonder?

I like the idea, but I bet Kellhus would have plundered the Mandate library before now (and the Scarlet Spires and all the other schools) and would have found some kind of reference to the Judging Eye.  Seems like he would have scoured the 3seas for that kind of thing to get confirmation over the intervening 20 years.

If we go along with the thing that Kellhus plays prophet long enough to truly be the prophet, maybe Mimara will see him early in TUC and he'll be damned, but she'll see him later in TUC and he'll be blessed?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on May 29, 2014, 05:14:07 am
Yeah, I'm just saying if the JE sees him, he only has to look into Mimara's face to see the truth via his super-dunyain powers.
Perhaps she already has and he deleted her memories.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 29, 2014, 12:38:00 pm
Yeah, I'm just saying if the JE sees him, he only has to look into Mimara's face to see the truth via his super-dunyain powers.
Perhaps she already has and he deleted her memories.

AWESOME!!!

For K's sake, I hope Mimi's face isn't hidden like Sorweel's
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: SilentRoamer on May 29, 2014, 06:20:38 pm
Ah but we don't know Sorweels face truly was. From Sorweels PoV it was hidden, Kellhus had no visible reaction but he's talking to a Dunyain and Dunyain are good actors :) It would not just be Sorweels face which would need to be masked either, if you remember from earlier Kellhus PoV he can detect shortness of breath and even increased heartbeats. So literally Sorweel would need the full shabang from Yatwer.

Not to say this isn't the case, I personally can't make up my mind. If they can hide stuff from Kellhus that would make me pissed. I think he needs to be totally infallible and really believeing he can save mankind until the last moment when we get a big reveal related to TSTSNBM.

Mimara seems like a walking IF and i expect her to meet Kellhus at some point. She may damn him? :(

Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Monstar on May 29, 2014, 10:15:16 pm
Ah but we don't know Sorweels face truly was. From Sorweels PoV it was hidden, Kellhus had no visible reaction but he's talking to a Dunyain and Dunyain are good actors :) It would not just be Sorweels face which would need to be masked either, if you remember from earlier Kellhus PoV he can detect shortness of breath and even increased heartbeats. So literally Sorweel would need the full shabang from Yatwer.

Not to say this isn't the case, I personally can't make up my mind. If they can hide stuff from Kellhus that would make me pissed. I think he needs to be totally infallible and really believeing he can save mankind until the last moment when we get a big reveal related to TSTSNBM.

Mimara seems like a walking IF and i expect her to meet Kellhus at some point. She may damn him? :(

Haha that's brilliant forgot about increased heartrate etc. although with Sorweel he would have so many conflicting emotions that he would've been all over the place emotionally anyway. My big reason for believing Kallus fell for it is that Sorweel will be needed at some point especially considering how much his character was developed.

If you think of Akka's approach he is literally to his knowledge the only one not supporting Kallus so if the whole thing turns sour Akka needs allies and the help of an army.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 31, 2014, 09:40:58 am
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Garet Jax on May 31, 2014, 01:16:18 pm
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it! ;)

Monstar, could Sorweel be Bakker's Red Viper?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on May 31, 2014, 03:13:51 pm
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it!

Garet, why are your lips still stained with my black semen? I don't get it
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 31, 2014, 05:09:53 pm
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it! ;)

Monstar, could Sorweel be Bakker's Red Viper?

goddamnit, i feel silly :P

mi fravite auter iz arscrotz brakerz


@ Phallus Pendulus - lol, something else i don't get!  envious of your user name--endless possibilities for penis jokes in bakker threads
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Monstar on May 31, 2014, 05:25:15 pm
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it! ;)

Monstar, could Sorweel be Bakker's Red Viper?
I don't know I just remembered that way, Ill change over now!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Monstar on May 31, 2014, 05:43:28 pm
Just thinking that the Mimara's child might be seriously affected by the Qiiri and possibly the Quirri mightallow a reincarnation of the Non-Ma who the ashes belong to.

Although it could be wishful thinking, I just want to see some more serious magical duelling and can't help but think that Kellhus would blow Akka or whoever out of the ground without even thinking.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on May 31, 2014, 06:01:12 pm
@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it!  :P

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it! ;)

Monstar, could Sorweel be Bakker's Red Viper?
I don't know I just remembered that way, Ill change over now!

Lol, I do that too--slightly related: growing up in the US south, I try to avoiding saying "wheel" in public because no matter what, it doesn't sound right (to the thems, sounds fine to me).
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: larrytheimp on June 09, 2014, 09:59:14 pm
She sees herself with short hair and heavily pregnant in WLW ch6, just after first learning that she is pregnant.  The JE seems to transcend time.

That is troublesome to me. Might it be that the damnation that it apparently sees is the subjects end-of-life damnation. The sum of all the decision they have made and what they will make. So for example, akka is damned as viewed by TJE, but he may not yet have committed the act/acts that got him to that point.

Also, could be that it shows damnation that has been rescinded.... if Kellhus is legit then shouldn't Akka have been damned in the past but then 'cleansed' by Kellhus's decree?  So it could be showing past damnation too.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on June 10, 2014, 03:23:57 am
I've noted this before, Larry.  Akka is very likely damned for a lot more than just sorcery, if that is your meaning.

Also, Kellhus tries to pull the "I can save you" routine on Aurang in TTT and instantly realizes that Aurang knows he can't do that. 

I'm not sure, do you think Kellhusian Inrithism is geared towards actually helping people avoid damnation by changing cultural attitudes to the mysterious 'absolute morality', or that a remission from a Prophet or a change in scripture would affect individuals' fate/change the absolute morality?

Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2014, 12:15:43 pm
Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".

I thought the whole idea behind fate was that it was outside your own personal control. Is that wrong? For this reason, I feel like what you just head refutes your own claim.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on June 11, 2014, 01:46:44 am
Fate has several definitions.  I'm kinda using it in this sense;
Quote
2. the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time.

I take the Dunyain idea of the logos to be an actual thing in Earwa.

Quote
The Emperical Priority Principle (sometimes referred to as the Principle of Before and After) asserts that within the circle of the world, what comes before determines what comes after without exception.  The Rational Priority Principle asserts that Logos, or Reason, lies outside the circle of the world (though only in a formal and not an ontological sense). The Epistemological Principle asserts that knowing what comes before (via the Logos) yields "control" of what comes after.
(my bold)

Galian is damned by fate.  Mimara believes that he can alter his fate through understanding himself and the application of reason.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 11, 2014, 01:25:00 pm
I've noted this before, Larry.  Akka is very likely damned for a lot more than just sorcery, if that is your meaning.

Also, Kellhus tries to pull the "I can save you" routine on Aurang in TTT and instantly realizes that Aurang knows he can't do that. 

I'm not sure, do you think Kellhusian Inrithism is geared towards actually helping people avoid damnation by changing cultural attitudes to the mysterious 'absolute morality', or that a remission from a Prophet or a change in scripture would affect individuals' fate/change the absolute morality?

Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".

Curethan I don't have the text on me so will need to check. I thought it went the other way. Kellhus told Aurang that he was beyond redemption.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on July 03, 2014, 04:02:23 am
@ larrytheimp - I don't remember the specifics of the decree, but I would imagine that it came with a proviso: the damnation of sorcery is lifted IF you follow Kellhus. 

I'm betting that Akka appears damned because of the sum of his sins, perhaps even one's he hasn't yet committed.  TUC is just begging for a Judas role!  Akka kills the prophet, loses Esmi and Mimara, and is generally fucked by Fate once again.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Garet Jax on July 26, 2014, 04:41:25 pm
I am not sure if I have brought this up anywhere outside of Quorum, but I am curious to see if anybody has a theory on why Mimara is not damned or marked after performing sorcery.


The Judging Eye - US First Edition Hardcover Page 339/340.


She carries the Surillic Point for Akka, and he actually even says it's just a small cant. 


Is it because he summoned it and she only carried it, because she grasped it with her soul rather than with utteral/inutteral, or am I going bat shit insane?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2014, 05:47:55 am
Two issues.

First is simple.  The mark does not = damnation, it's just ugly.
Inanimate objects can bear the mark, that's a big deal imo.
Also things created with sorcery, e.g. the light of a surillic point and sorcerous artifacts bear the mark.
That is why Malowebi is so moved when he sees the water.
Also, viewing it does not impart knowledge of damnation.(When TJE is used Mimara always describes the Mark seperately)
Akka et al can also see the Mark and descibe it the same as Mim but aren't convinced of damnation.

Secondly you have answered your own question somewhat. Mim only held the cant, she did not create the light.  So she did not invoke the power herself.

Interesting that she sees herself in a reflection.  Are the mark and damnation really frequencies that can be reflected?  Or perhaps it is an illusion sent by Kellhus or something?
Or is Bakker messing with Jayden Smith level philosophy?  8o

YOU MUST TELL ME!
How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?

Calling it, Jayden Smith is the No-God.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 03:41:43 am
Given what we know of the Gods, and their feelings towards Kellhus, I don't believe that Kellhus has the power to undue damnation. The Gods are basically huge Ciphrang, and if they want to torture your soul once it passes fully into the Outside, they'll do it. They're the ground on which Earwa's morality is based.

Given that, I really hope the Fanim are right.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 01:00:58 am
But if the Gods have finite power, and there exists a way for new gods to pop into existence, than Kellhus might have the power to do whatever he wants. If he can become one of the 100, then all the souls that reach for him will be 'saved'.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 01:13:58 am
Maybe. If such a thing is possible, and he knows a way. Though what Kellhus would do once he became a God, I have no idea. When you're a passionless self moving soul, what moves you?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 03:14:29 pm
Maybe. If such a thing is possible, and he knows a way. Though what Kellhus would do once he became a God, I have no idea. When you're a passionless self moving soul, what moves you?

Exterminating and/or dominating all competition. Good bye fellow Dunyain, good bye Ciphrang, good bye Consult... Hello Solitary God.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2014, 04:24:53 pm
And...then what? A God that was truly Dunyain would be an absent God.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on September 11, 2014, 02:40:39 am
i wager the pointlessness of being god is moot to kellhus--he's driven by his conditioning to dominate circumstances whatever they are
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 01:34:06 pm
And...then what? A God that was truly Dunyain would be an absent God.
i wager the pointlessness of being god is moot to kellhus--he's driven by his conditioning to dominate circumstances whatever they are
Like a dog chasing its tail. If it ever catches it, it wouldn't know what to do with it. The Mission is to become Absolute. Not sure if the Dunyain bother discussing what would happen after... Its like beating a game, alls thats left to do is play it again from the start, maybe on a harder difficulty, or play another one altogether.

Make a new universe and see if you can make events such that you get deposed by your own creations? A God with absolute authority and power creating something to destroy itself.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on March 09, 2015, 05:17:29 pm
Anyone think its likely that Mimara's child will end up being like a certain child from Dune who was exposed to spice in the womb?

Some Dune spoilers for this speculation:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on March 09, 2015, 07:44:27 pm
I think it's likely Mimara's child will be born dead.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on March 09, 2015, 08:49:07 pm
Certainly, but those dune parallels though....
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Aural on March 10, 2015, 09:46:36 pm
Anyone think its likely that Mimara's child will end up being like a certain child from Dune who was exposed to spice in the womb?

Nah, that's Kelmomas once he takes Maithanet's place and becomes known as the Toddler Shriah. That may even be the name of the third series, The Toddler Shriah.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on March 11, 2015, 01:24:33 am
Nah, that's Kelmomas once he takes Maithanet's place and becomes known as the Toddler Shriah. That may even be the name of the third series, The Toddler Shriah.
I know you were joking, but on reflection, everything but the title is shockingly plausible.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Uncle Holy on March 15, 2015, 08:11:29 pm
I think Mimara holds the key somehow to the No-God's destruction. Kellhus's goal (it seems) is to destroy the Consult and prevent the No-God's awakening, but he may fail in that...meaning the No-God may rise after all...if this happens, Mimara's Judging eye (plus that experience she had with the Chorae) will be crucial in confronting Mog...which would explain why the Consult is interested in her and whatever prophecy foretold her involvement...
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on March 15, 2015, 09:43:54 pm
The No-God, at least when confronted on Mengedda, constantly screams "WHAT DO YOU SEE"

I wonder what it would think of Mimara's reply, if the Judging Eye opened.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 15, 2015, 11:40:32 pm
Anyone think its likely that Mimara's child will end up being like a certain child from Dune who was exposed to spice in the womb?

Some Dune spoilers for this speculation:
(click to show/hide)

fuck yeah!  guess what?  Mimara *thinks* it is Akka's baby because she is thinking in terms of 9 months.  really, it is Kellhus' baby running on a longer than 9 month incubation.  Dunyain + Judging Eye Woman + Qirri = the fulfillment of the Kelmomian prophecy!!!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on March 16, 2015, 02:54:49 am
That relies on Kellhus having wiped her memory of the event, or for Mimara to have repressed it herself (which I find unlikely). Since Mimara doesn't recall ever coupling with Kellhus.

That said if Kellhus wanted even more progeny there's no more likely womb to quicken than Mimara's. Her mother was compatible, so there's probably a decent chance she is too.

Esmenet could never know. She'd never forgive that. Even for him.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on March 24, 2015, 02:43:28 am
i'm not sure why, but this has always struck me as one of the saddest bits in all of the Second Apocalypse.  TDTCB, chapter 4, p 109, Esmi reminiscing about young Mimara:

Quote
Esmenet's daughter was never far from her thoughts.  It was strange the way anything, even the most trivial happenstance, could summon memories of her.  This time it was Achamian and his curious habit of sniffing each prune before taking it between his teeth.

Once her daughter had sniffed an apple at the market.  It was a breathless memory, wan, as though rinsed of colour by the horrific fact of her death.  An adorable little girl, bright beneath the shadows of passersby, with straight black hair, a chubby-tender face, and eyes like peretual hope.

"Mama, it smells like..." she had said, hooking her voice as insight failed her, "it smells like water and flowers."  She flashed her mother a triumphant smile.

Esmenet looked up at the sour vendor, who nodded at the entwined serpents tattoed on the back of her left hand.  The message was clear: I don't sell to your kind.

"That's funny, my sweet.  It smells overpriced to me."

"But, Mama ..." her darling had said.

Esmenet blinked the tears from her eyes.  Achamian was speaking to her.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: The Sharmat on March 24, 2015, 12:15:25 pm
Mimara remembers that incident, despite how long ago it was. She just remembers it wrong, since Esmi is not in it. I guess some part of her doesn't like to be reminded that her mother actually loved her.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on June 02, 2015, 05:53:06 pm
That relies on Kellhus having wiped her memory of the event, or for Mimara to have repressed it herself (which I find unlikely). Since Mimara doesn't recall ever coupling with Kellhus.

That said if Kellhus wanted even more progeny there's no more likely womb to quicken than Mimara's. Her mother was compatible, so there's probably a decent chance she is too.

Esmenet could never know. She'd never forgive that. Even for him.

maybe Kellhus has been wiping many memories!  kids everywhere!  Maitha did it too!

for real tho, what Mimara did to the Seal at the end of TJE, if anything is daimotically summoned in TUC, Mimara is the one to banish it.  perhaps Kellhus summons War but can't control or get rid of him so Mimara saves the day!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MSJ on October 07, 2015, 02:28:29 pm
OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish For she sees that she is goodand this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on October 08, 2015, 01:32:13 pm

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish For she sees that she is goodand this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on October 08, 2015, 01:32:45 pm

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish For she sees that she is goodand this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on October 08, 2015, 01:33:22 pm

OK, so I came across this passage while in another discussion and would like to know your guys thoughts.

Quote
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens. For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation. Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow. She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching her knees for anguish For she sees that she is goodand this she cannot bear.

OK, we've deduced through Kellhus and Serwe that when halo's are seen it because of the belief that one is holy. Kellhus doesn't see his own halo's til much later when he finally believes that he is, or crazy, take a pick. Anyway, when Mimara see her reflection and she bears a halo, its the Judging Eye/God(?)  looking at her.  Why is she holy? When so much has been stated that women's spiritual value is less and not worthy, we see a direct contradiction of that through the Judging Eye. Its a theme I keep going back to, and its like no matter how much someone convinces me otherwise, I believe women to be most important to this story, in the end.

Also,

Quote
And he seemed with otherworldly light, haloes like golden discs shining about his hands. She could see him!

Quote
Somewhere distant, almost too far to touch, men cried out. Martemus watched the Prophet turn his head, reach back witha golden-haloed hand, and seize a flying arm, which bore a fist, which gripped a long and silvery knife.

There are just two examples, but, everytime Kellhus's halo are mentioned they are gold. These are seen through the eyes of humans. When we see Mimara's through the Judging Eye hers are silver. I'd love to see Kellhus through the Judging eye, but, is this a clue that Kellhus's haloes are false? Please, anything you guys could add would be greatly appreciated.

i cant think of anything more than the reader is being set up for some revelation we cant currently infer. Bakker could use one color halo to prove the other false, or tell is they are diff kinds of holy, or that both are deceived. I dont have a clue. Mimara could be holy to Yatwer but damned to Ajokli or something. Maybe Kellhus will play his viramsata long enough that we will see his gold halos (false holiness) switch to silver halos (really real holy). Maybe Mim is just a way of confirming the IF for the reader. More possibilities?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: MG on December 18, 2015, 07:50:15 pm
i can't remember if we covered this--maybe Mimara's baby is Kellhus' child?  she could be deceived about this since a dunyain baby reportedly takes more than 9 months to hatch and Kellhus could have whelmed her
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Alia on December 19, 2015, 09:33:46 am
i can't remember if we covered this--maybe Mimara's baby is Kellhus' child?  she could be deceived about this since a dunyain baby reportedly takes more than 9 months to hatch and Kellhus could have whelmed her

Yeah, I believe it's already been mentioned somewhere on the forum.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on December 29, 2015, 02:40:25 pm
Seems like a good idea MG, and I can't recall it being mentioned, but it could be hidden somewhere. If it comes out looking like a bashrag then we'll know it was.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Uncle Holy on January 23, 2016, 04:19:01 pm
Personally, I always took all this talk of 'halos' as just extra craziness. Serwe was never the sanest person. She and Martemus could easily have allowed their reverence for Kellhus to literally cloud their sight. But it is weird that they both see the same thing. Kellhus admitting that he could also see halos around his hands, is weird too, unless he's as crazy as Moe said he is. A crazy/delusional full-blooded Dunyain, Yatwer preserve us :)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: H on January 28, 2016, 03:01:53 pm
Personally, I always took all this talk of 'halos' as just extra craziness. Serwe was never the sanest person. She and Martemus could easily have allowed their reverence for Kellhus to literally cloud their sight. But it is weird that they both see the same thing. Kellhus admitting that he could also see halos around his hands, is weird too, unless he's as crazy as Moe said he is. A crazy/delusional full-blooded Dunyain, Yatwer preserve us :)

There is also the the fact that Serwe sees the halos around the Kellhus-skin-spy's hands.  This means that the halos aren't actually generated by Kellhus, but rather are affixed in the perception of Kellhus, not actually attached to him.  In this way, Kellhus has bought in to his own shit, so he sees his own halos as well.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: locke on January 28, 2016, 03:59:22 pm
Yeah the halos are a watcher watched conundrum independent of looker and looked at. As you say they're attached to perception not to person


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Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2016, 07:24:42 pm
...a watcher watched conundrum independent of looker and looked a...

 I like this succinct explanation.

Makes me wonder, if Kellhus was somehow successfully replaced long-term with a skin-spy, would it be the crux of whatever metaphysical thing is happening? (presuming for a second that Kellhus is the crux to begin with, and no someone else)
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Blackstone on February 26, 2016, 06:41:17 pm
What is the speculation on Mimara actually learning to use the Gnosis? I was originally thinking that it was ridiculous that Akka was even teaching it to her. A grown person's chances of mastering the language necessary to use the Gnosis is zero (excluding Dunyain intellect of course). But. Now Mimara is on qirri, which seems to increase mental capacity. Will it be enough for her to master the language? Hmmm. Just occurred to me that even if she could, she wouldn't be able to touch Seswatha's heart. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: Bolivar on February 26, 2016, 10:24:30 pm
It almost certainly won't happen by the end of this series, maybe in the next one if there's another gap.

Although, with some of the things that have happened, she might not need traditional sorcery to wield magic.

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Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: themerchant on February 27, 2016, 02:19:43 am
I think at some point she resolves not to learn it after she sees through the Chorae with the judging eye i believe, she wont even give up her chorae when sranc are chasing them up mountains so Akka can't walk in the air. I believe she no longer wants to learn, can't remember where about it is stated, in WLW somewhere i suspect.
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: geoffrobro on February 27, 2016, 02:23:39 am
Maybe with the judging eye Mimara will be able to salt sorcerers and undo sorcery with a gaze!
Title: Re: Mimara
Post by: rnblut on February 28, 2016, 02:18:51 am
I believe she no longer wants to learn, can't remember where about it is stated, in WLW somewhere i suspect.
I am in the midst of re-reading WLW and in Chapter 6 she indicates not wanting to learn sorcery in the context of trying to figure out who is the father of her baby. (p.183, first edition overlook press).