The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:05 pm

Title: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:05 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Edit:
Revising the preface of this.
Discussion of Frank Herbert's Dune Saga. This is Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune,and Chapterhouse: Dune.

If you haven't read these, be warned that there will be major spoilers, and likely none of them will be tagged.
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Anyways. I've seen mentions of parallels and similarities between the two mentioned here, and even that Bakker drew some of his ideas from the series. If anyone would care to expand on what they see between the books and authors I'd like to read it. Some of you are so much more, shall we say, literarilly inclined than myself. (yup made up that word)

But as for me, some obvious things jump out. The Mentat and their absurd computational abilities as well as the Bene Gesserit and their galactic breeding program. The Kwisatz Haderach and his abilities.

All these things remind me of the Dunyain. They are basically the Mentat and the BG combined. Their Kwisatz Haderach the one who first obtains The Absolute, or maybe its Kell (again coming before his time like Dune) who is the prodigal dunyain.

Then we have Qirri: "The poison that made strong" WLW 429. Qirri and the spice melange. Both addictive, both shrouded in mystery. Perhaps the qirri doesn't give prescience, but maybe it does. As the space navigators can see glimpses, perhaps mundane humans just get some of the fringe benefits but not all. The actual affects of the qirri on a Nonmen or a dunyain is largely unknown, who knows, perhaps it could grant some prescient visions.

On that subject, the way the future is portrayed in visions. Kell sees paths of probabilities and is largely able to control what lines of logic he follows into the future. Our Kwisatz Haderach can only just barely grasp the future and its implications, and he is more just looking at visions of different futures rather than following specific paths. However the TTT and the 'nexuses' that the Kwisatz Haderach cannot see through are similar. They are both large pools of cosmic forces all condensed into a small point, where small, minute varations in paths lead to drastically different futures.

Then of course the obvious parallel of the face dancers, which I have only just met and not much for to say on that subject.

Made me think of something interesting, near the end.
Paul can't see others with prescience. He can see the effects, where the person went and where they may end up, but never the person directly. Could this be the case in TSA series?

Perhaps the gods have similar visions of the timeline, like Paul's. They exist outside of the timeline entirely, but maybe those with similar 'powers' are invisible to them. Obviously the No-God, if it was some kind of god figure, would then be rendered invisible. How about Kell? Could Kell be similar to the space guild navigators in that he has a limited 'power' and is therefore himself invisible, but at the same time much more easily seen the the No-God. Paul never saw the other Kwisatz Haderach revealed at the end. Maybe this was because Paul was still not adept at using his powers, but he can see the effects of the guilds men rather plainly, so perhaps it was because (to make a lame analogy) they had such similar power levels that they were both invisible.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:13 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
On the old Three Seas forum, I came down on Dune like the proverbial ton of bricks.  In the end I had to admit I went too far and was being too harsh.  All the same I stand by my opinion: compared to Bakker's Second Apocalypse, Dune is an amateurish work.  Granted Herbert had all these great ideas (the rise of a prophet who can see the future, face dancers, Bene Gesserit, etc.), but when you compare these to their counterpart in the Second Apocalypse, they appear woefully underdeveloped and poorly thought out.  It's like comparing a few pieces of raw meat and uncooked vegetables with a sumptuous feast.  And certainly there is no comparison when it comes to the philosophical depth between the two works.
 
p.s.: just as a background, I read the first Dune book with some interest (but growing dismay); I struggled mightily with the second (it literally bored me to sleep multiple times); I started but completely lost interest part way through the third book.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:21 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Did you read and fall in love with Bakker's works before you read Dune?

I agree that the depth and breadth of the books are not the same, but consider what you are reading. It is a sci-fi novel written in the 60's. Is Asimov's Foundation saga any 'worse' than Dune? You seem to be complaining about an overall lack of interest in the genre as a whole, and indeed Bakker is writing his series as a foil to these supposed genre staples. Liking Bakker barely qualifies a person as one who loves fantasy/scifi novels.

If you want deep philosophical writing there are many other places for you to go, and whining about how classic, widely appreciated genre staples arn't any good because they don't compare to a more modern example to your liking is like playing the Atari 2600 and complaining about how the graphics don't look as nice as MW3. Sure what you said may be true, but its missing the point (and is entirely off topic).

I appreciate the input but if that post turns this topic into a flame war rather than an actually discussion based loosely on my original post and the questions contained therein, I'd be rather disappointed.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:29 pm
Quote from: Madness
I don't think Truth Shines intended that to be read as major criticism. In fact, it reads polite and toned down compared to what might have been written.

I, for one, am very interested in discussing comparisons of the two works and the ideas therein, Wilshire, however, I feel I couldn't possibly begin until you've finished at least up till God-Emperor without my analogies spoiling things for you.

Also, I agree that the works reflect their time and place. Asimov and Herbert are prime examples of what was the common style at the time. Limited descriptions, usually simply used to develop setting, and relying majorly on dialogue and introspection as means to further plot.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:36 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I was worried about that. Guess i'll come back later when I've finished it up, though that might take some time.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:44 pm
Quote from: gwern
Good eye, OP. http://www.sfcrowsnest.com/articles/features/2005/R-Scott-Bakker-Interview-8186.php

"Do you have any particular favourite authors who have influenced your work?"

"Tolkien and Herbert are the two great wells from which The Prince of Nothing is drawn. When I first started writing, my mantra was to write something that would 'awe and intrigue.' Since I worked on it as a hobby for so long, however, it ended up growing into so much more - and owing so much more as a result. For years - decades - I found myself jotting down book-related titbits inspired by whatever I was reading at the time: history, the classics, Shakespeare, and lots of philosophy - especially Nietzsche, Heidegger, and Aristotle."
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:34:52 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Thanks for posting that, Gwern :)

Edit: Actually this is even extra interesting - thanks alot?

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that which does not kill makes one stranger, not stronger
Okay, interview date: 2005. Batman: The dark knight release 2008.

Is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger" actually a bit of a common phrase (a quick google doesn't seem to indicate that it is)? Perhaps in some circles? I hope so, or that's freaky...
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:03 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Just finished the second book (messiah). Onto Children of Dune. I am very,  very, glad that I dont have to wait an average of 6 years in between books like the poor fellows back when these books were first published.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:11 pm
Quote from: Jorge
I once made a picture with all of the influences I could detect in Bakker's work. It was huge. It can be largely be thought of as a mix between the Bible, Tolkien, Herbert and good dose of HR Giger just was extra kick. The philosophical influences are very numerous, but at its heart, the first trilogy is a celebration of skepticism and doubt.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:17 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
guess that leaves me with Giger afterwards then
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:23 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Well since im up through God Emperor and fumbling around with Chapterhouse I thought I'd bump this thread.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:30 pm
Quote from: Madness
I just want to say, in rereading this thread - Jorge, you're really cool. I'd like to see that picture on day, if that is at all possible.

So Wilshire, I'm very interested in your thoughts - or anyone's, obviously - as I'm hugely interested in how Bakker could have come up with any prefix No- without reading Heretics and Chapterhouse. If he made it through the first four books then we have plenty of means of comparison.

I'm not going to pull quotes and whatnot ATM as I'm just getting off work and it's almost (now past in editing) three in the morning.  But... food for thought:

What parallels can we pick from Dune specifically? I feel like the cliffhanger ending of Dune is primarily what might have inspired him - there are a number of powerful themes set up, that don't get fleshed out in the original novel.

Character parallels have been a pretty distinct for me. Moenghus the Elder is Paul. Paul doesn't see/doesn't accept his place in the symbiosis or Leto sees farther/accepts his Father's denied fate.

In Dune and Dune Messiah, Paul hovers at the edge of pure prescience until the stone burner goes off - it's only when he's finally blinded that he realizes the true extent of his oracular knowledge and acts in certainty.

So it made me think that Moenghus the Elder saw farther at the time of TTT. He's blinded and sees the only path. Which is something he explicitly tells Kellhus in their conversation.

In Children of Dune, everything leads up to Leto's transformation, his realization of the Golden Path, and confronting the Preacher who has been undermining his empire.

Something that probably needs quotables later but I very much read in Leto and the Preacher's conversation in the desert that Paul admits he saw the Golden Path and refused it, seeing Leto's later acceptance.

You suggested, I think, Wilshire, in The Heart thread in TWP forum, that when Kellhus' Circumfixion transpires, the Outside somehow "sandworms" him. So when Kellhus confronts Moenghus, "I am more," I think, Moenghus has actually seen farther in the Thought than has Kellhus.

As I think Bakker's pulled more random threads of characterization and plot from Dune rather than episodes like LOTR, I'd also suggest that this is why I think Meppa to be Moenghus - though a Neuropunctured Metapsukhari Cishaurim of Moenghus' sect would be the cooler thing ;). It's quite possible that Meppa will preach in Momemn to undermine Kellhus' empire which is under the stewardship of Esmenet, haunted by her past - as opposed to the Preacher in undermining Leto's empire under the stewardship of Alia, possessed by the Baron - after all, Cishaurim are Fanim priests.

I think that God-Emperor will reflect the majority of TUC themes - Kellhus is going to sacrifice himself to achieve the Shortest Path, Achamian and Mimara will be involved in that persecution and will be forced to continue the major struggle without Kellhus' guidance - he dissolves into the Outside to do work there o.O?

I always wonder at Siona's connection - after all, the No-Rooms, No-Ships, etc, etc, developed by the Ixian's reflect Siona's genetics being equally undetectable to prescience.

However, prescience in Earwa has two analogies - the perspective of the Warrior, the Gods, and the Outside or the perspective of the Dunyain. I got more as I just got the feeling Bakker drew from all six Frank books and mashed them all over TSA.

Get after me.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:39 pm
Quote from: sologdin
Quote from: Truth Shines
to Bakker's Second Apocalypse, Dune is an amateurish work.  Granted Herbert had all these great ideas (the rise of a prophet who can see the future, face dancers, Bene Gesserit, etc.), but when you compare these to their counterpart in the Second Apocalypse, they appear woefully underdeveloped and poorly thought out.  It's like comparing a few pieces of raw meat and uncooked vegetables with a sumptuous feast.  And certainly there is no comparison when it comes to the philosophical depth between the two works

shoulders of giants.  TSA is a basically a gloss on tolkien and herbert, with plenty of other lesser influences, arising out of the passage of many decades and the differential educations of the respective writers. 


had written this over at westeros a while back:

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note that the narrative of [dune] part I might be described as follows, allowing an intermediate level of generality:
 
(click to show/hide)

we might also describe it this way, however:
 
(click to show/hide)

we might further describe it this way:

(click to show/hide)

i've read those narratives in other books recently, so i think some fancypantsed loyar needs to send mr. herbert a cease and desist letter on behalf of these other stories.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:35:46 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
So as I said in the OP, simply from Dune it would seem Kellhus was Paul. However after reading the other novels I can see why you would think of Moe instead.

I've not thought of that until now, but on the surface your theory seems to make sense. The blindness, the disbandment, being a heretic in his own empire. Perhaps Moe actually wandered off into the wasted North after he came back and delivered his news, rather than being exiled like the Dunyain claim, giving us another parallel.

Im typing this as I think it, so it might be that half way down I will change my mind, but lets see were it takes us. The main issue I have with Moe being Paul is that Moe is not the prodigy. He is not the one to deliver the Dunyain from their mundane bonds and catupult them into the realm of the Absolute. There are so many obvious distinction that make him parralel Paul closely, but there is some break-down... or rather he is more of a combination of themes than simply one character.

Moe is also kind of a combination of Paul and Jessica. Denying your order, choosing another over your own tribe. Jessica trained and lead Paul to what he became, more or less. Sure she didn't know where exactly he would end up, but she trained him to be a mentat and a male with all the bene gesserit training. Moe fathers Kell in a similar way. He conditioned the grounds for Kell to walk on. He showed Kell the way to TTT, though he didn't know what would happen when he grasped it. He also probably thought Paul would bring balance to the force not destroy it, erm I mean bring more stability to TTT and help his father complete his goal rather than take it and warp it beyond recognition.

So Paul saw the golden path but made the conscious decision not to follow it. Did Moe do this?
Well, more importantly might be the reasons for Paul's actions. Why not choose the path that would forever lead humans to a better place? Why not save everyone, for eternity?
Leto believes its because he could not justify the worm transformation in order to make this path possible. That losing his humanity, becoming a different species, was too much for him to bare. Paul wanted to save his subjects, as any Atreides would, from death and suffering. And yet, he chose to ignore the Golden Path, so damning everyone.
Or, was it that the end did not justify the means? Paul saw the great war, another Jihad, that was too terrible. He spent his time alive trying to find a path to the future that did not cross this inevitability.

Was this Moe's intention? Did he see the golden path, the shortest path, through the nexus of events( the Nexus being TTT rather than the path), but choose to find another, less bloody, more difficult way through? Did he know that he would likely fail, but that he must try regardless? Is his idea of the future, the one that delivers Earwa to the Inchoroi, truly the lesser of two evils, or was it just one evil over another?

Not that I disagree entirely with your theory, Madness, but just that it is incomplete. Like you mentioned, there is a mashing together of themes and while a lot of Moe can be seen in Paul, I believe so too can a lot of Paul be seen there too.

In my OP, I mentioned that Kellhus is the Kwisatz Haderach (or Paul). Not, I suppose, in the sense that he has the genetic ability to see more than other Dunyain, but mostly that he is the prodigal son of the Dunyain, their penultimate achievement.
I dont think that Moe fits this motif very well. For one, Moe was sent out, but he was presumably fully 'controlled' by the Dunyain. He had, more or less, completed the training. He drank the punch. Kellhus, however, is kind of like Paul in that he is outside the Dunyain. The begrudgingly sent him out to his father, even though they would have wanted to keep and train him. Outside of their sphere of influence at a young age (I hope he was younger than Moe when he was sent out), he decided on a path of his own, damning the Dunyain and their practices. Sure Moe did this too, but I feel the link is stronger with Kell.

But then Kell is distinctly like Leto in the ways you said, and I like that portion of your conclusion. I think its highly possible that Kell took the path his father would not, and it may likely have something to do with losing his humanity. Perhaps he will become the No-God like some have suggested, however I don't know how he would plan to save everyone like Leto's worm did, but that remains to be seen. What we do know if that Father and Son choose different paths out of TTT, and yet both thought that theirs was the only way to truly save humanity.

BTW the idea of the outside sandworm-ing Kell was lockesnow, not I. Is Kell in a skin that is not his own? Thus the heart, the halos, the metagnosis.



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So it made me think that Moenghus the Elder saw farther at the time of TTT. He's blinded and sees the only path. Which is something he explicitly tells Kellhus in their conversation.
But didn't Paul follow the only path? Then Leto comes along with another 'only path'. 'Only' here does not mean there are no other choices, but rather that no other choices are as good as the one each has chosen, which is largely subjective.

Farther? If we are standing  back to back, and we each see to the horizon, who sees farther? If you ask someone which one of use sees farther, what would they say? Without context, it would seem we can each see to the same distance, more or less, so perhaps the poor guy you asked would say we see the same. But its more complicated than this, since 'farther' in our case, depends on where you think we should be going.
Moe perhaps sees farther along his chosen path, but Kell likely sees farther down his. They both know, in general, what will happen along both lines of causality and circumstance, but as the variables become more complex and more numerous, there might just not be enough time to compute all possibilities for all paths.
Then again this breaks down when you consider that Moe has had much more time to consider TTT and the paths out of it. It would be more likely that Time is a bigger factor in this equation. With so much more time Moe should have a greater understanding of where the paths through TTT lead, at least compared to Kell who basically picked the path me liked the most and ignored the other possibilities.
Though all that is mostly off topic.

The real questions would be if the blinding gave him sight. With Paul, when he became blind he no longer saw the now. Rather, he could only see his visions. His vision became the present and future. But what if Paul did not go to the dessert, and Leto was raised under Paul's tutelage. Eventually Leto would have chosen the Golden Path, and Paul's reality, his 'pure prescience', would have broken down. He would have become blind in the metaphysical as he was already blinded physically. Who sees farther then?

Did Moe see farther until Kell came and shut out his future? Moe's only path suddenly becomes a dead end, a no-path maybe :P.

I agree that TUC will have a lot of similarities with God Emperor. The Preacher, the sacrifise, the collapse of the fathers regime under the son's hand. Perhaps Kelmomas is Leto though with the Atreides, I mean Anasorimbor, family compassion stripped away making him much more 'evil'.


Which incarnation of prescience from TSA would Dune fall under? The prescient of Leto and others is more like the Gods/Outside/WLW. This, because the Dune prescience is more of a Gift, something that just happens, rather than a cold and calculated future of possibilities. It doesn't matter that much though, since the amount to about the same thing.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:36:16 pm
Quote from: Madness
Rushing off to work here. Firstly, thanks solo for getting in on this and Wilshire for correcting my misquote.

Just wanted to add one main pertinant thought of many to your post, Wilshire.

Paul was Kellhus for me too... up until the blinding and the fact that Leto just gets it all so much quicker than Moenghus, mostly due to the prebirth metaconsciousness a la Alia. Then Leto the II became the undeniable comparison - it keeps stacking up. God-Emperor, Aspect-Emperor.

Then I quickly saw reasons I previously ignored to the idea that Paul is Moenghus rather than Kellhus.

Certainly bias on my part.

Also, remember when Paul first experiences the blindness, he is at first worried that the visions won't match reality. The accumulation of their invariance is what welds him to his path... I think us using the word choice is probably misleading.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:36:49 pm
Quote from: sologdin
i've said it before: 

on dune, the golden path is the means to some uncertain end for the shortening of the way.

on earwa, the shortest path is the means to some uncertain end for what volume VI will reveal as the goldening of the way.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:47:42 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote
Im typing this as I think it, so it might be that half way down I will change my mind, but lets see were it takes us. The main issue I have with Moe being Paul is that Moe is not the prodigy. He is not the one to deliver the Dunyain from their mundane bonds and catupult them into the realm of the Absolute. There are so many obvious distinction that make him parralel Paul closely, but there is some break-down... or rather he is more of a combination of themes than simply one character.

To me, the issue is the fact that Paul is not Leto II. Leto II just seems to fictionally overshadow Paul in the way that Kellhus overshadows Moenghus the Elder. Paul incubates a long-term vision of the future unfolding of circumstance but Leto executes it.

I understand Paul is named Kwisatz Haderach. I think I could make a pretty good argument as to why the Bene Gesserit may have jumped the gun and assumed because Paul satisfied some of the variables - the gender thing, primarily. If we look at Paul's choices and the adherence to his visions following the overthrow of the Sardaukar on Arrakis, then certainly he is the fulcrum in time where the future begins to collapse on the inevitable.

Without Leto II, most of the it never actually comes to pass.

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Moe is also kind of a combination of Paul and Jessica. Denying your order, choosing another over your own tribe. Jessica trained and lead Paul to what he became, more or less. Sure she didn't know where exactly he would end up, but she trained him to be a mentat and a male with all the bene gesserit training. Moe fathers Kell in a similar way. He conditioned the grounds for Kell to walk on. He showed Kell the way to TTT, though he didn't know what would happen when he grasped it. He also probably thought Paul would bring balance to the force not destroy it, erm I mean bring more stability to TTT and help his father complete his goal rather than take it and warp it beyond recognition.

Just thinking aloud, bear with me.

I think you might be doing the extracurricular stretching here. Does Moenghus condition Kellhus ground like a parent or an oracle, say, John the Baptist?

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So Paul saw the golden path but made the conscious decision not to follow it. Did Moe do this?

No, but I'm not necessarily trying to use these parallels to prove any certain idea, just seeing if any of our combinations fit Bakker's narrative and offer us new insight.

Leto II and Ghanima spend most of Children wondering, if Paul is the Preacher, what actually drove him to the desert? I can almost hear Leto II saying... this is where the thought failed you.

Except it's not. Paul's visions encompass his single deviant choice - the Fremen would have excepted his leadership after Messiah, as his visions accounted for his blindness - and he sees his path beyond that point where prescience supposedly failed him, according to... everyone, basically, in the novels.

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Well, more importantly might be the reasons for Paul's actions. Why not choose the path that would forever lead humans to a better place? Why not save everyone, for eternity?
Leto believes its because he could not justify the worm transformation in order to make this path possible. That losing his humanity, becoming a different species, was too much for him to bare. Paul wanted to save his subjects, as any Atreides would, from death and suffering. And yet, he chose to ignore the Golden Path, so damning everyone.
Or, was it that the end did not justify the means? Paul saw the great war, another Jihad, that was too terrible. He spent his time alive trying to find a path to the future that did not cross this inevitability.

Perhaps, prescience does fail Paul for a time, though I'd argue otherwise - this is getting interesting, probably going to have to pull the books out soon. Remember, Leto II allows for suffering well beyond the next Fremen jihad in order to see the Golden Path through.

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Was this Moe's intention? Did he see the golden path, the shortest path, through the nexus of events( the Nexus being TTT rather than the path), but choose to find another, less bloody, more difficult way through? Did he know that he would likely fail, but that he must try regardless? Is his idea of the future, the one that delivers Earwa to the Inchoroi, truly the lesser of two evils, or was it just one evil over another?

I'm not sure the parallels are played out. One of my many considerations, leaning heavily on these analogies, obviously, is that The Unholy Consult will see another anti/climatic conversation, this time between Kellhus and Meppa.

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Not that I disagree entirely with your theory, Madness, but just that it is incomplete. Like you mentioned, there is a mashing together of themes and while a lot of Moe can be seen in Paul, I believe so too can a lot of Paul be seen there too.

No worries, Wilshire, I'm all over the place.

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In my OP, I mentioned that Kellhus is the Kwisatz Haderach (or Paul). Not, I suppose, in the sense that he has the genetic ability to see more than other Dunyain, but mostly that he is the prodigal son of the Dunyain, their penultimate achievement.
I dont think that Moe fits this motif very well. For one, Moe was sent out, but he was presumably fully 'controlled' by the Dunyain. He had, more or less, completed the training. He drank the punch. Kellhus, however, is kind of like Paul in that he is outside the Dunyain. The begrudgingly sent him out to his father, even though they would have wanted to keep and train him. Outside of their sphere of influence at a young age (I hope he was younger than Moe when he was sent out), he decided on a path of his own, damning the Dunyain and their practices. Sure Moe did this too, but I feel the link is stronger with Kell.

Interesting thoughts. I'd argue that the encountering the World outside of Ishual is enough to make any Dunyain more than their brethren - they become instant Players/Names in Earwa. I think alot of these analogies, if they exist, have yet to play out, as I wrote. For instance, this becomes a whole lot more valid, if Moenghus did know more of the unfolding of the Thousandfold Thought than Kellhus.

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But then Kell is distinctly like Leto in the ways you said, and I like that portion of your conclusion. I think its highly possible that Kell took the path his father would not, and it may likely have something to do with losing his humanity. Perhaps he will become the No-God like some have suggested, however I don't know how he would plan to save everyone like Leto's worm did, but that remains to be seen. What we do know if that Father and Son choose different paths out of TTT, and yet both thought that theirs was the only way to truly save humanity.

BTW the idea of the outside sandworm-ing Kell was lockesnow, not I. Is Kell in a skin that is not his own? Thus the heart, the halos, the metagnosis.

I'd suggest that you both have viable analogies to the Leto's "sandworming." We could distill that to something like "symbiosis?"

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But didn't Paul follow the only path? Then Leto comes along with another 'only path'. 'Only' here does not mean there are no other choices, but rather that no other choices are as good as the one each has chosen, which is largely subjective.

"'I was the Shortest Path.'

'No. You were the only path'" (TTT, p439).

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Moe perhaps sees farther along his chosen path, but Kell likely sees farther down his. They both know, in general, what will happen along both lines of causality and circumstance, but as the variables become more complex and more numerous, there might just not be enough time to compute all possibilities for all paths.
Then again this breaks down when you consider that Moe has had much more time to consider TTT and the paths out of it. It would be more likely that Time is a bigger factor in this equation. With so much more time Moe should have a greater understanding of where the paths through TTT lead, at least compared to Kell who basically picked the path me liked the most and ignored the other possibilities.
Though all that is mostly off topic.

Actually, most of these thoughts are direct inspiration for my making these ulterior analogies in the first place.

Let's try another suggestion for the Thousandfold Thought. If the Probability Trance is the most likely statistical outcome given any number of variables, then the futures that the Dunyain see eventually collapse, rather than unfold. By that consideration, there is truly only one future. One need only know the "most objective circumstance," the "truest truth," and then act accordingly. Think of it like Unified Theory and forgive my terrible communication.

In light of this, the Thousandfold Thought is likely a sudden, inevitable emergence, the collapse of probabilities (probably ;)) into a equal or greater number of certainties.

Moenghus had a solid twentyish years exploring the Probability Trance and conditions the ground for Kellhus so that he doesn't have to spend that time realizing the Thought on his own.

As does Paul make fertile the ground for Leto II - but I think I'm just rapping here too.

Quote
The real questions would be if the blinding gave him sight. With Paul, when he became blind he no longer saw the now. Rather, he could only see his visions. His vision became the present and future. But what if Paul did not go to the dessert, and Leto was raised under Paul's tutelage. Eventually Leto would have chosen the Golden Path, and Paul's reality, his 'pure prescience', would have broken down. He would have become blind in the metaphysical as he was already blinded physically. Who sees farther then?

Isn't it that now matches his visions exactly? Excepting in the single instance, where the visions intend do fail Paul - only because of his initial inability to trust them as truth - and Leto II gets him over the oracular hump.

Quote
I agree that TUC will have a lot of similarities with God Emperor. The Preacher, the sacrifise, the collapse of the fathers regime under the son's hand. Perhaps Kelmomas is Leto though with the Atreides, I mean Anasorimbor, family compassion stripped away making him much more 'evil'.

I was thinking about this as a possible idea you'd bring back - Lol... completely true and equally freaky.

Quote
Which incarnation of prescience from TSA would Dune fall under? The prescient of Leto and others is more like the Gods/Outside/WLW. This, because the Dune prescience is more of a Gift, something that just happens, rather than a cold and calculated future of possibilities. It doesn't matter that much though, since the amount to about the same thing.

+1, sir.

Slinging thoughts, oh yeah.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:47:54 pm
Quote from: Madness
Also, quick thought before work in rereading part of your post. I think, that perhaps, you made a third analogy above - prescience is like the Dreams, prophecy in Dune reflecting the mundane circumstances of the Oracle, rather than the miraculous, further "reveals" according to physical status.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:05 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Jorge
I once made a picture with all of the influences I could detect in Bakker's work. It was huge. It can be largely be thought of as a mix between the Bible, Tolkien, Herbert and good dose of HR Giger just was extra kick. The philosophical influences are very numerous, but at its heart, the first trilogy is a celebration of skepticism and doubt.

Any chance you still have that map laying around somewhere. I'd even see if I couldn't make it into an electronic, editable version ( using mind42.com ), if you could dig it up.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:21 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Oh look there is me talking about the mindmap. Oops, guess I should stop asking Jorge to find it :P ive done so in a few threads now.

I'm not done with you Madness, I swear. I've just not had the time to give your post justice until recently.

One small tidbit though.

page 241 WLW, Psatma Nannaferi, Mother-Supreme.
"The Goddess waits, Snakehead, and you are but a mote before her patience!"

Bakker used the word mote to describe Meppa in front of a Woman goddess. I find this peculiar, because that specific word was used many, many times when talking about the Bene Gesserit and their far flung knowledge. The first time when Jessica goes through the water-agony with her unborn children.

Why mote? Must have been on purpose.
Also, cmon, mother-supreme? :P. Get your own titles Bakker, Frank covered all the mother-whatevers in his series...  :)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:30 pm
Quote from: glottalstop
Quote from: Madness
Quote
Moenghus had a solid twentyish years exploring the Probability Trance and conditions the ground for Kellhus so that he doesn't have to spend that time realizing the Thought on his own.

As does Paul make fertile the ground for Leto II


I thought the same thing. Dune &c are a bit foggy so I don't know if this really works, depends on how Paul talks before he dies. Paul is contained within the God Emperor, who begins in a discrete sense when the first mind grasps enough of the future to see its vast shape. There is very little difference between a Paul that is prescient beyond Leto II's death and the God Emperor himself, he is the Kwisatz Haderach.(should I add that to my dictionary, banish the wormy red lines? Is this one of those subtly important decisions that will impact my life in various unforeseen episodes?)

Mapping characters to each other directly doesn't work for me explicatively. But! But it does provide different angles into each fiction. World. Thing.

Is Kellhus's impending doom Just Part of The Plan™?
Will all the shortsighted adults ever see that sweet Kelmomas was just undergoing an early sort of Dunyain puberty? That he really didn't mean that. He's really sorry and seems sincere.

I can't make comparisons without seeing the differences. The most nagging one to me right now is structural. Kellhus, the center of events in the first trilogy. Kellhus, the godling who's coming of age we saw through his own eyes. Kellhus... has disappeared. He only exists through the eyes of others.

Is the reader as blind to him as the Gods are to the No-God?

Quote
but I think I'm just rapping here too.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:41 pm
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, GS. I can't help but laugh as I hear your phoneme.

I'm definitely foggy right now, living on bout no sleep but you strike some interesting thoughts. Providing different angles allow for us to grasp at the God, after all.

Is Kelmomas Leto? Is Kellhus' fading an inversion of KH's emersion?

Like your rhymes.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:49 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Regarding The Thousandfold Thought and and Leto's Golden Path:

This was debated a bit in the TTT thread elsewhere but I felt it would fit better here.
Here goes.

There is a fundamental difference in the Dunyain probability trance (PT) and the Dune prescience (DP). This distinction becomes important for my later theory so lets straighten it out first. Although the outcome is more or less the same, the PT is more like a mathematical summation of probabilities while DP is more like a polaroid snapshot of the future (and they only get one shot). In the short term, these two are basically the same. Short term, btw, is extremely relative here considering that Dune is like 10k+ years while TSA is only a century or two (thats all that matters in this discussion at least).

So the short term for Dune could range from a guild navigators journey through space, to the upper limit of Paul Atreides prescience (maybe 100 years).
Short term of TSA is pretty much any use of the probability trance that doesn't lead too/through TTT.

The analogy of PT and DP starts to break after that short term limit is approached. The issue is that the PT is more of a continuous process, measurement unceasing, opposed to the DP which is stagnant. In Dune the prescience user is locked into their vision of the future. They do not possess the ability to change what they have seen (though this is more of a metaphysical limitation, they oracles also would likely not have the mental capacity to do what the Dunyain can even if it were possible).
In the short term, this isn't really much of an issue. The Dunyain evaluate each data point used in the PT, but this doesn't effect short term goals. It is the piling of chance and mischance that cause deviations from vision of the future. While the Dunyain are able to see and correct this, once the oracle's of Dune see the future they are locked into that future.

So then when a major leap is made to try and see the future in Dune, as we have seen, several things can happen. First of all, the visions inevitably start to deviate. Because they only get the on vision of their future, they either go through blind, or try and force events to occur that will allow, or not allow, that vision to come true.

I believe that Leto knew of this problem, mainly from his study of Paul. He did several things to ensure the his golden path survived through the ages that Paul failed to do, allowing for an outcome that was, again, very similar to TTT but still different on a fundamental level.
He began by avoiding the limits of the DP by keeping his prediction small (at least to begin with). Instead of taking one big snapshot of the future, he took lots of small ones. I'd say glimpses into the future the length of each Duncan Idaho's life as he was re-created.

Duncan becoming extremely important in this plot. In order to maintain the monopoly of prescient power, that ensures the continuation of his golden path, Leto needed to "out predict" all other oracles. Why? Because as seen by Paul's downfall, he who sees farther is (in most cases) more correct. There doesn't seem to be room for more than one or two actual futures in Dune, so the most powerful oracle kind of takes on the role of ruler.
To ensure that most other predictions or futuresights would inevitably fail Leto did something rather clever. My theory: he used Duncan as his focus. Without him none of it would have been possible. By creating a ghola that lived through the ages Leto was able to have an important anchor in all of his visions. When he combined this with the no-nouns/people that he intentionally developed, Leto effectively made himself the only one able to see the true outcome of events in the far far future. All those Siona genes would mess up most far seeing futures without a proper reference that could be traced. Because Idaho was one of the only ones guaranteed to not be effected by these genes Leto had quite the monopoly. But I kind of digressed...

So PT is like an integral to the DP limit of some finite number of inputs. Although Leto did a lot of work to secure his GP and managed to squeeze out an outcome that would have been similar to TTT. To continue with the math analogy, Leto's prescience was a limit of a huge number of variables, and although not perfect compared to an integral, it was pretty damn close.

TL;DR version.

Dune prescience and the Dunyain probability trance are fundementally very different, but Leto's Golden Path and The Thousandfold Thought end up being about the same thing.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:48:59 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Inspiration-wise, the correspondances are certainly not one to one the way you line them up, Grallon. Kellhus, for instance, actually owes very little to Paul Atriedes, though the skin-spies are obvious rip-offs of Herbert's face-dancers. The Scylvendi owe nothing to the Huns, but quite abit to the Scythians and Sarmatians. I see Shigek as decidedly more Egyptian than Mesopotamian. And the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu.

Quote from: Rider, 2005
Was The God Emperor of Dune an inspiration in any way Scott?

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
Huge, Rider - though I didn't particularly like any of the books following Dune. They literally changed my life.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 01:49:11 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
The Scylvendi owe nothing to the Huns, but quite abit to the Scythians and Sarmatians.
He might have intended this to be the case, but the Scylvendi as he actually portrays them in the books are much closer to Huns (and other historical Turkic steppe tribes) than they are to Scythians and Sarmatians (and other historical Aryan steppe tribes).

I'll admit that the name 'Scylvendi' sounds vaguely Indo-European, though.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 04:09:55 pm
Shameless dump 8).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Srancy on June 09, 2013, 02:31:27 am
Good job, Madness
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2013, 12:58:57 pm
Thanks, Srancy ;).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 21, 2013, 04:46:02 pm
Is Mimara Siona and will Achamian and Mimara destory Kellhus in TUC a la Duncan and Siona in GEOD...
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 21, 2013, 11:10:08 pm
I think the Duncan/Akka comparison is much stronger than Siona/Mimara. Siona was related to Duncan and was bred specifically to end Letto II's reign. She also had a power that made her immune prescience. Unless Mimara is Akka's daughter (i really hope not) and TJE somehow destroys Kellhus's ability to see her in his thousandfold thought, then I don't see it.

Too soon to tell. More information needed.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on August 21, 2013, 11:23:41 pm
Not gonna read this thread too much right now due to spoilers, but I just started Dune yesterday (basically for the first time...I tried it once back when I was like 12 and couldn't get into it). Really enjoying it now though. Actually the whole reason I started it was because I just finished my reread of TSA and I wanted something kinda, sorta similar, and short of reading Lord of the Rings or the Bible, Dune seemed like the natural place to go.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 22, 2013, 03:37:02 am
A wonderful decision.  ;D

I'm glad I read all the way through to the end (including only the books by Frank), but I felt a couple of the middle books lost a bit of steam. The first couple and the last couple were great, but book 1 is simply a must read.

I would certainly avoid this topic. I can't remember exactly how heavy the spoilers are, but more than a few twists will be ruined if you peruse the first couple pages of posts, but don't forget to come back and regale us with your perspective.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2013, 02:06:13 pm
Not gonna read this thread too much right now due to spoilers, but I just started Dune yesterday (basically for the first time...I tried it once back when I was like 12 and couldn't get into it). Really enjoying it now though. Actually the whole reason I started it was because I just finished my reread of TSA and I wanted something kinda, sorta similar, and short of reading Lord of the Rings or the Bible, Dune seemed like the natural place to go.

I hope you backed out until you are done but +1, FB. Don't listen to the haters.

I think the Duncan/Akka comparison is much stronger than Siona/Mimara. Siona was related to Duncan and was bred specifically to end Letto II's reign. She also had a power that made her immune prescience. Unless Mimara is Akka's daughter (i really hope not) and TJE somehow destroys Kellhus's ability to see her in his thousandfold thought, then I don't see it.

Too soon to tell. More information needed.

Because I'm concerned FB can't resist himself:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 22, 2013, 11:26:07 pm
Just in case  ;)
(click to show/hide)

Got me thinking though, the probability trance (and by extension TTT) is blind to unknown data/variables. If TJE is such a thing, it could really throw a wrench in his plans. Or, if there are others trying to to use TTT, they might miss that factor, causing divergent views of it.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on August 23, 2013, 03:49:45 am
Oh, I'll regale. I'll regale.  ;)

Seriously though, I'm a bit lost as to where to the best "ending" point is. I know people don't like Herbert's son's stuff, it seems. What that's the most natural endpoint? Like, where do most people think the series reached its peak?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 23, 2013, 01:17:54 pm
Dune through Chapterhouse: Dune.

Only read the titles by Frank. And to be honest, you are safe to continue onto other non-Dune titles by Frank.

Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God-Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune

Unfortunately, it was due to be a seven book series, which his son claimed to finish from his Dad's notes. Great attempt, Brian, but we could have fucked up the ending with our own imaginations.

Wilshire (because FB clearly hasn't left ;)):

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on August 26, 2013, 05:13:28 am
Gotcha. Could one read up to Chapterhouse and still feel like it was a satisfying series, or is it really non-conclusive?

I just finished Dune. Very much enjoyed it. I love stuff that mixes elements of science fiction and fantasy. I'm not sure I feel like going straight into Dune Messiah, but I probably will. I was actually surprised by the similarities between Paul and Kellhus, especially by the end of the book, as well as the Bene Gesserit and the Dunyain. For some reason I had always assumed that the Dunyain and Kellhus were something Bakker totally made up on his own (which I found amazing because they're such incredible templates for SFF characters/ideas). Not that there's anything wrong with that by any means; as they say, all writers steal, the key is to take a kernel of an idea and turn into something new and unique (hell I've done that exact thing with Bakker himself -- and many other writers -- in some of my own writing).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2013, 03:06:52 pm
Yeah he said as much to me. The first few books of Dune Bakker got an idea or two from, though apparently none from the later books.

I'd say Chapterhouse is THE endpoint. It could certainly have used book 8, but it doesn't exist. There is a lot of closure and it could have ended nicely there, except Frank Herbert clearly had plans for another one and there are a few elements that don't get fully explained... and the epilogue is like chapter 1 of the next book. Its kind of frustrating, but I would rather leave it as it was written than try to read what amounts to (in my mind) a fan's version of how it might have ended.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2013, 02:39:22 pm
I have some things I want closure on, damnit!

Lol. Deep breaths.

I think Bakker needs to consolidate himself (don't we all). God-Emperor. Aspect-Emperor. Just fer appetizers.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on August 28, 2013, 07:14:00 pm
So I just finished Dune Messiah. Ended up reading most of it in a night (stayed up way too late). I thought it was awesome, personally. Very different from the typical route of this sort of story. I never would have seen Paul dying so early in the series, but it was very well done. It was interesting reading the foreward by Brian Herbert (I avoided it until I finished the book, I don't like reading forewards beforehand since they can sometimes indirectly spoil stuff). I was surprised that people didn't like DM at first, but I can totally see it. It goes in such a different direction than one would expect, but it's amazingly well-done. I also really like Alia as a character. I'll be starting Children of Dune as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2013, 07:18:25 pm
Isn't curious that a book written 50 years ago could hold such surprises and a genre bending plot?

Looks like we have ourselves another Dune junkie ;). Welcome.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on August 28, 2013, 07:24:44 pm
Yeah, especially for a SFF. It was definitely way ahead of its time.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2013, 11:49:21 pm
Lol. There is a Bakker quote somewhere suggesting a latent desire to rewrite the books after Dune. While Herbert's Saga is awesome, Bakker could really flesh it out.

I still appreciate Herbert's space espionage though :).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 01, 2013, 09:24:26 pm
Finished Children, started Heretics. Man, talk about a fucking time jump. I mean I was kind of expecting one in the back in my mind because I somehow had heard before that there was a big one, but it still took me by surprise.

Children was a little harder to get through. Still good, but certain points of it felt a little meandering. It definitely seemed kind of like a set up book, which, now seeing how far the story stretches, is beginning to make sense. I will say that I'm now very damn curious to see what makes up the next three books.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 01, 2013, 09:51:00 pm
God Emperor might have been my  least favorite, certainly the strangest. Worth reading through to get to Heritics and Chapterhouse.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 01, 2013, 10:14:03 pm
Oh, well duh. I skipped God-Emperor. I thought Heretics came next. Lol that might change things a bit. Glad I came on here (and that I'm not far into Heretics).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 01, 2013, 10:30:07 pm
Dune
Dune Messiah
Children of Dune
God Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune


Don't feel too bad, I read Chapterhouse before I realized that Heretics was its prequel. Makes a lot more sense if you read them in order.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 02, 2013, 02:25:54 am
Yeah, it seemed odd to me that Leto's reign was completely skipped over, considering he had barely become emperor by the time Children ended.

Still, I would have liked to see stuff about Ghanima, Stilgar, etc. Farad'n also seemed to be developing into an interesting character. Though the sheer ambition of the series is quite remarkable.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 02, 2013, 04:44:51 am
Lol, why in god's name are the Bene Gesserit in the Dune miniseries wearing giant cowboy hats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohiam%2BBeneGesserit-2000.jpg
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Royce on September 02, 2013, 07:18:44 am
haha,you should stay away from the movie adaptations on this series.The David Lynch movie from the eightees does
have a certain charm,but the miniseries that came later on was a disaster
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2013, 02:07:49 pm
I really hope you are all interested in smackdown of speculation and ridiculous parallels for this thread. I've just unpacked all my books again for basically the first time all summer and every time I saw a Dune book, I thought of this thread and a hundred more things Wilhire, I, and anyone else could be arguing about.

Hurry le frek up, FB.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2013, 04:59:47 pm
Yeah I've heard that the Dune movies were some of the worst Sci-Fi's ever done.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Royce on September 02, 2013, 05:46:56 pm
I seriously don`t see the point in screening this series.There is so much going on that can`t be described through television.The miniseries was so horrible my eyes bled.I am very biased though,since I don`t watch movies or TV anymore.
Thumbs up for reading,thumbs down for light and colour shooting through your eyeballs,feeding you with images,hypnoticing and dazing you like valium:)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 03, 2013, 02:07:35 am
I can't contain this one - FB, earmuffs:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 03, 2013, 02:35:39 am
I can't contain this one - FB, earmuffs:

(click to show/hide)

I'll allow it :P
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 05, 2013, 05:17:12 pm
Aight, finished God Emporer last night. I really liked that one actually, definitely more than Children, perhaps a little more than Messiah. Leto and the Empire he created were both pretty damn fascinating. The whole biology of him becoming a worm was great. All of the characters were really interesting as well. This was probably the first one of the novels where I really enjoyed Duncan Idaho too. It's funny that he was basically a random side-character in the first book that died, only for him to become the only consistent character throughout the series. I'm about 15% into Heretics (according to my Kindle) and it seems to be going pretty quick, hoping to be done the series by the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 05, 2013, 05:25:36 pm
Good, good. Then you can spend some time reading our conversation here, and then we can start the whole thing anew :P.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 06, 2013, 12:46:33 am
Got a question, but I'm afraid to go on the Dune wiki because I've already accidentally spoiled myself twice looking up seemingly innocuous topics.

How far ahead does Heretics take place? At first I was under the impression that it was only like 2,500 years after God Emperor, but then one of the chapter-header-quote things said something about it being the 10,000 year anniversary of the Tyrant's fall or some such (not sure if it was exactly that, but it was definitely the 10,000 year anniversary of...something in regards to Leto II)?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 06, 2013, 03:44:07 am
1500 years after the fall of Leto II
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 07, 2013, 12:07:35 am
Thanks, that makes more sense. Now I'm curious about that "10,000 year" quote though. I'll try to find it after finishing the book. Perhaps it's supposed to be a quote from the future?

I find the lack of aliens in this series (well, intelligent aliens) interesting. Just off the top of my head, I feel that this stems from the series really being an examination of humanity from an incredibly broad perspective, based on the massive scale of the series. It's funny though, because the introduction of an alien species in such a work could both jeopardize the focus on the "human universe", and yet also shed new light upon it given the right approach. The lack of non-human civilizations, however, also creates a certain lonely atmosphere to the series that's very effective, in that it pushes humanity to face the universe as this indomitable force. It's infinite, merciless, and utterly indifferent, and yet the civilizations seem to be continually finding ways to bind it to their will, yet still always finding the complexity and randomness to subvert them. No matter how great they become (Leto being the prime example at this point), they're never a match for the adversity of existence.

ETA: To sum it up, the series almost feels like the ultimate Man vs Nature.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 08, 2013, 08:09:30 pm
Well, my hopes for finishing the series by today were, apparently, a bit overly optimistic, due to a sudden deluge of various life responsibilities. I finished Heretics late last night, and I really, really loved it. Perhaps a little a slow to get going (possibly just a side-effect of getting accustomed to all the new characters and the time-jump), but the last quarter or so was phenomenal. Miles Teg is probably in my top three favorite characters from the series now. I was so mad that he died. His crazy "bullet-time" whirlwind of death stuff was fucking badass. I'm also really digging that Idaho now has all of the memories of all the previous gholas. I'd been hoping that might happen since reading God Emperor. It just seems like the obvious progression for the character, so I'm glad my wish came true. I can't wait to start Chapterhouse tonight.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2013, 01:08:40 am
Haha yes I loved pretty much everything about Teg
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on September 09, 2013, 01:14:44 am
Teg is amazing. :D
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 09, 2013, 12:51:39 pm
Teg taking out the Matre's bank... Awesome.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 16, 2013, 08:16:46 pm
Finally got around to finishing Chapterhouse last night. Awesome book. But goddamn, that cliffhanger. The last few chapters really did feel like the setup for a big, crazy-ass finale to the series. It's kind of depressing, but at the same time the mystery of it is cool. I read some reviews and brief synopsis of Hunters of Dune, and I really have no urge to read it. Just the synopsis alone makes it sound...not very inspired. Having a bunch of the original characters come back as gholas and stuff, "ultraspice", etc. Just not interested at this point. Maybe someday, but I do feel like I need a break of the series. They weren't what I'd call "easy reads" for me personally. Not hard in the way of like, old literature or whatever, but just kind of exhausting in certain ways. Which is not to say that I didn't enjoy it, because I really, really did. It's probably now among my favorite SFF series ever.

The quality of the writing is, obviously, superb. And it's really incredible how ahead of its time it was in a lot of ways. It was all very unpredictable, and also very realistic feeling. The characters, their motivations, the way things played out, all came across as what would actually happen if this future existed. As of now, if I had to rank my favorite installments in order, it would probably be:

Dune
God-Emperor
Heretics
Chapterhouse
Messiah
Children

Dune and God-Emperor were amazing. GE was slow at points, but I was fascinated by Leto and pretty much every other character. Children of Dune was the only one that I found to be a bit of a chore to get through, though I'm not really sure why. I thought Heretics and Chapterhouse were both a bit slow to get going, but they also had phenomenal endings.

There's almost nothing I genuinely disliked about the series, but if I had to point something out, I guess it would be that the POV transitioning felt a little outdated and clunky at times, though at the same time I feel like it was necessary for this kind of story. I also felt like it would have been cool to hear about some more planets/cultures/factions as the series went on. It felt a little bit like, we always hear about how many civilizations and Great Families there are, and yet even after thousands of years, it mostly still focuses on Arrakis, Tleilax, Ix, and then Chapterhouse. Obviously just a minor nitpick though.

So, I guess now my question is, what the hell do people think was going on with that weird, god-like couple that Duncan was "spying" on? They were like super-advanced Face Dancers, correct? Is that what the Honoured Matres were supposed to be running from? What was the "net" they were talking about?

I'll chime in later about my thoughts on the series as compared to TDCTB.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2013, 08:34:41 pm
Yeah that epilogue..........................

I think that couple was some kind of advanced face-dancer race. Somehow they control... everything?.... I don't know. At least I got the feeling that they are some super race that has taken over the scattering and have done one of two things. Either they have made it extremely difficult for those from the scattering to "come back" to the home worlds, or everything is so wonderful there that no one wants to come back.

The Honored Matra are some kind of super-geserits and they are fleeing the super-tleilax? Maybe its supposed to be some kind of inversion, where the Bene Geserits have been dominating humanity for forever back in the original worlds, the Tleilax are now in control of those in the scattering?

Not really sure, its been a little while since I've read them and I never really did come up with any definitive conclusion/theory when I had all the memories intact. I think I originally just decided to leave it mostly as an "unsolved mystery" since I knew there would be no true solution. Maybe conclusions are easier now that I forget some stuff :P

Also, after reading the series it was funny how many references I've seen/heard/read. Same thing happened when I read  Tolkien. Even today after so many years, these "classics" of their genre are still referenced and its fun to be apart of that in-group (though it is a quite a large group).
For example, I was reading some list on the site cracked.com, which is a site mostly comprised of satirical "top 10" lists, and it was "Watch out for rust. Rust is the mind killer. Rust is the little-death that brings total annihilation". I thought it was hysterical.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 17, 2013, 03:02:58 pm
I heard a rumour not so long ago that God-Emperor is considered as possibly written by a ghostwriter.

Children of Dune was actually one of my favorites, especially due to the conversational conclusion with the Preacher and Leto's fish suit in the beginnings of metamorphosis.

Honoured Matres are a flerwed version of the Bene Gesserit because they choose/are conditioned by fragmented history to privilege certain of aspects of the, in my opinion, more balanced training carried out by the BG. Then, as if without tact, they choose to funnel all of those BG inherited abilities into seducing men with intimacy and women with power (a nice touch in the narrative but a poor choice on the part of the HM).

Allegedly, from the story we know about the Face Dancer HM and that these entities may have explored and utilized the BG skill-set more thoroughly (makes me wonder about the original Scytale). They would also control... the Scattering, really, which Leto/Golden Path intended to never to be possible.

Regardless, as far as I recall (I'll make it to the books about this at some time) in the final series, we'd see the FDHM hunt down the No-Ship with all the collected personages (the net could be the metaphorical hunt for them).

To be fair, has anyone read the Herbert/Anderson attempt at the final book?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 17, 2013, 03:09:44 pm
To be fair, has anyone read the Herbert/Anderson attempt at the final book?

Nope. Though I read all the books straight through too and by the time I finished Chapterhouse I didn't want to ruin the feeling of greatness.

Now a few months later I might be willing to check it out, see if its readable...

Maybe if it's approached as a kind of "fan fiction conclusion" it might not be offensive :P
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on September 17, 2013, 09:51:44 pm
back when the Frank Herbert computer discs were first discovered, before there was any contract for new books, Brian Herbert, I think, announced their discovery.  He talked about what they found on the discs, some rough work and a complete outline of the final book, iirc.  He mentioned he didn't think it was publishable, but he was considering writing the final book and finally explain that cliffhanger.  However, he did say he wasn't sure they could just publish the final book, based on his reading of the notes, they would have to go back and begin with a book that covered the Butlerian Jihad (which apparently there was a lot of material about it on the discs) to set up the final book.

Then KJA came in and they contracted for all the new books, writing not just a BJ trilogy (no longer a single novel, not for this cash cow!) but a prequel trilogy (milk that cow!) and then a final Duology (why do it in just one book?)  So it was a decade or more after they found the discs that they finally got around to writing the book.

So by that time, the belief goes, they had invested a decade of their own writing creating this elaborate backstory/universe and the final duology seemed to be mostly from "their" material, covering all this crap they created in the EU Dune prequels.

How I interpret things is to just look at the simplest explanation.  The characters at the end of the book have very 'old fashioned', earth normal names, like Daniel.  That makes me think they are machines from an earlier age.  The fact that Brian Herbert said they'd have to write a book about the Butlerian Jihad to explain the final cliffhanger further reinforces the idea that they are machines. 

My guess is they are sentient machines, who fled humanity after losing the Butlerian Jihad, and now, millenia later are returning.  Humanity thought they were destroyed, but they were not.  In order to introduce this new, final piece to the game, Frank Herbert had to generate some backstory he'd always left purposefully gray.  Most of his work fleshed out the events of the BJ before he planned on beginning work in Dune 7.  But he probably never intended writing a prequel novel, that was all just part of his process.  The backstory would have been sufficiently explained in Dune 7. 

Brian and KJA either never understood that, or wanted to cash in for a lot more than a final book.  They also may have thought that Dune fans would never believe the introduction of such a new major faction this late in the game.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 17, 2013, 11:16:00 pm
That's an interesting possibility. We did start to see more "machine" stuff popping up in the last two books. The one guy who flew Odrade's ship to Junction was a cyborg, which was pretty new to the series. Having machines as the big bad guys at the end would be kinda cool too, and fitting with the tone of the series.

I had no idea that Brian Herbert and the other dude wrote that many Dune books. I thought there was just one about the Butlerian Jihad and then the two sequels.

Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on September 18, 2013, 12:26:38 am
If you take the first three Dune books as an exploration of the organic limits of human potential, and Dune 5, 6 & 7 as an exploration of the technological, with GE as the transition rule, it sort of makes more sense that the machines come in at the end of Dune 7, just as Leto becomes the worm at the end of CoD.

I don't think machines would have been the bad guys in the traditional sense of the word, no more than the worms are 'bad'.  The machines are returning, doesn't mean it's going to be a conflagration.  Leto's golden path could have been about creating a universe where a negotiated peace, or a merger of human and machine, was possible.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 18, 2013, 05:17:31 pm
I looked up some stuff on Hunters of & Sandworms of, the Dune 7 become duology...

Machines were the big bad, leftover AI from the Butlerian Jihad.

Also, you left out like five books from that winning duo, lockesnow ;).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on October 09, 2013, 06:12:35 pm
Missed this before, but after skimming through the thread again, I think the early ideas posted (I.E. that Kellhus is more like Leto, and Moenghus is Paul), especially the connection between Meppa and Moe, are pretty spot on. I don't have my books at the moment (lent them to a friend), but how do people postulate that Moe survived the Chorae and the apparent salting? Is there some wiggle-room in the text for trickery/misdirection? I can't remember specifically.

On the topic of Kellhus/Leto and Moe/Paul, I do think that you're going to run into problems by trying to perfectly line up the characters from the two series. There's clearly influences from multiple sources, and elements of different characters are mixed up or excised entirely (along with plenty of brand-new stuff added in).

I do wonder if we'll see a parallel between Kellhus going through some type of extreme physical transformation in TUC a la Leto II, and also if there will be a Judas-betrayal of some kind (which I suppose, in a weird way, Sorweel could fit...or maybe even Proyas, in a Nayla-esque turn of events?).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on October 09, 2013, 11:10:19 pm
There's a lot of wiggle room for moe, but it's simpler to just assume he's gone.

there's the question of whether the Serwe that leaps for Kellhus is Serwe from the Outside or the-thing-called-serwe.  That's a pet theory of mine I haven't really outlined.

Kellhus toppled into something when he cast his spell and rent the inward, after that moment his POV is excised from the narrative, and the next time we see him it's with descriptions akin to the no-god (whirlwind etc). 

Moenghus sought out Cnaiur for his strength before being touched by the chorae

unlike all the other deaths by chorae we've seen, Moe is not inhumed more-or-less instantly, he sticks around.

blackness engulfed Cnaiur at the end. 

Kellhus stumbled on a rock/skull on the way to the final encounter, so he's more fallible than usual.

Moe's three snakes come to him after he's stabbed.

Moenghus has the Skinspies suspended over a pit and has chosen this location, deep underground, next to an even deeper bottomless pit as the ideal location to confront kellhus.  Pits have an inordinate importance in the second trilogy and seem to facilitate movement between the inward and outward.  In the preview chapter of TUC, Shauriatus suspends his circle of amputees over a pit so there is metaphysical importance to them for certain, particularly in regards to survival  (if a pit occluds the sight of gods, perhaps it also occulds the ability of a chorae to assert reality, note that chorae was more or less useless at the GATES of the the Great Medial Screw, at the bottom of a giant pit until Mimara transfigured it.  Perhaps Moenghus has found a loop-hole--literally, a loop and a hole.  It's also worth mentioning that the synthese can find any skin spy, but all their skin spies have disappeared in Kianene, Moe probably figured out that they couldn't be located when suspended over a pit.  Also, Shauriatus has illustrated the ability to self move his soul through a circuit of other bodies, so a soul can be transported from one body to another, at least in the presence of a pit.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on October 10, 2013, 03:16:05 pm
It's eerie, isn't it, FB? I definitely think Bakker appropriated some character and plot arcs from the Dune Saga.

My guess would still be Achamian/Duncan, Mimara/Siona, and Proyas/Nayla for the betrayal. Obviously, as Kellhus/Leto planned ;).

But I definitely also think the Meppa/Moenghus, Esmenet (or Kelmomas?)/Alia, Kellhus/Leto is too interesting to ignore. Cishaurim/Preacher - I think so.

@ lockesnow - interesting read, I'm not sure it was the right thread. I am digging your theory, though, and I also wonder about masking the skin-spies from Aurang's Synthese.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 06:04:52 pm
Just found this review of Dune (http://fantasy-faction.com/2011/dune-by-frank-herbert):

Quote
The density of this book, both of unfamiliar terms and philosophy, sociology, and political intrigue, can be off putting, but I highly recommend working through it. On the first page alone there are at least ten terms or names which are from Herbert’s created universe, and the second page has quite a few more, but the long haul is worth it.

Is there no hope for The Second Apocalypse :(?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 06:08:44 pm
 :( well replace "first page" with "first book", and "ten" with "hundreds".

Come on humanity,  you can do it!
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 08:06:07 pm
Lol - I'm definitely tearing up over the injustice :'(.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Srancy on February 17, 2014, 02:41:11 am
The Solitary God created Earwa to train the faithful.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on February 17, 2014, 01:43:51 pm
Lol - welcome to the Dune thread, Srancy :P.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on February 17, 2014, 08:48:03 pm
The Solitary God created Earwa to train the faithful.
One cannot go against the word of god.

What is the word of god?  The logos.  And the universe is the uttering of the logos.

;)

my favorite Dune quote has always been this:

Quote
Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never persistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on February 18, 2014, 10:10:42 am
Someday I promise I will start seriously collecting quotes from my books to document what tickled my specific brain.

But I couldn't even begin to think of all the amazing Dune quotes. That's something I always enjoyed about Herbert and enjoy now about Bakker.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: mrganondorf on May 27, 2014, 03:39:20 am
There's a lot of wiggle room for moe, but it's simpler to just assume he's gone.

there's the question of whether the Serwe that leaps for Kellhus is Serwe from the Outside or the-thing-called-serwe.  That's a pet theory of mine I haven't really outlined.

Kellhus toppled into something when he cast his spell and rent the inward, after that moment his POV is excised from the narrative, and the next time we see him it's with descriptions akin to the no-god (whirlwind etc). 

Moenghus sought out Cnaiur for his strength before being touched by the chorae

unlike all the other deaths by chorae we've seen, Moe is not inhumed more-or-less instantly, he sticks around.

blackness engulfed Cnaiur at the end. 

Kellhus stumbled on a rock/skull on the way to the final encounter, so he's more fallible than usual.

Moe's three snakes come to him after he's stabbed.

Moenghus has the Skinspies suspended over a pit and has chosen this location, deep underground, next to an even deeper bottomless pit as the ideal location to confront kellhus.  Pits have an inordinate importance in the second trilogy and seem to facilitate movement between the inward and outward.  In the preview chapter of TUC, Shauriatus suspends his circle of amputees over a pit so there is metaphysical importance to them for certain, particularly in regards to survival  (if a pit occluds the sight of gods, perhaps it also occulds the ability of a chorae to assert reality, note that chorae was more or less useless at the GATES of the the Great Medial Screw, at the bottom of a giant pit until Mimara transfigured it.  Perhaps Moenghus has found a loop-hole--literally, a loop and a hole.  It's also worth mentioning that the synthese can find any skin spy, but all their skin spies have disappeared in Kianene, Moe probably figured out that they couldn't be located when suspended over a pit.  Also, Shauriatus has illustrated the ability to self move his soul through a circuit of other bodies, so a soul can be transported from one body to another, at least in the presence of a pit.

locke, are you thinking that Moe translated into Cnaiur or into a skin spy or something else?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Royce on May 27, 2014, 09:25:28 am
Anyone of you seen Jodorowskys Dune?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Ciogli on August 26, 2014, 12:34:04 am
 After reading this thread I was inspired to reread the Dune series, they were always my favorite books growing up. I had not rea them since I started with the second apocalypse books although I recognized the influence when reading them, the homages are deeper and more numerous than I imagined.
Kellhus is mainly inspired by Leto II who has come to complete the work started by his father, where Paul turned away from the Golden Path because he could not bare the cost of being subdivided into the worms in an endless dream while Kellhus theorized that Moenghus will turn away from The Thousandfold Thought when he learns of his own damnation. Although this is fluid thing as in the triumvirate of Paul, Chani, and Irulan, with that of Kellhus, Esmenet, and Serwe. Esmenet seems to Chani the dark haired true wife of the prophets heart while his blonde haired public wife Serwe who is the daughter of a chief. The Anasurimbor are the new Atreides, that family that holds the destiny of humanity in its hands. Esmenet is in a similar situation as that of Alia, the regent of a toppling empire trying to hold it together from internal rebellion after the Prophet who created the empire departs, and in her distress she begins to listen to the counsel of a family member. In Dune it is Alia’s maternal grandfather Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, while in Esmenet’s case it is her son Kelmommas. Kelmommas is interesting because he is the possessor and the possessed, the voice that leads Esmenet to ruin and the one who is haunted by an internal monologue that leads him in his madness. He was born staring into the eyes of his twin like the birth of Leto and Ghanima where they looked at each other in the womb. In the case of Kellhus he controls the Legion within himself, like Leto controls the legions of inner lives of his ancestors.  And the Circumfixion of Kellhus where he first grasps the TTT is similar to the introduced spice agony of Leto where he chooses the Golden Path. And in Shulloch where Leto takes on the sand trout skin and establishes the Golden Path, whereas in the abandoned mansion of Kyudea where Kellhus speaks to Moenghus and solidifies TTT. But unlike Leto who we have a viewpoint from in the books and can empathize with his ultimate designs, Kellhus gradually loses his viewpoint and becomes opaque as he grows in power and occludes his designs. Both Paul and Moenghus speak of the sleeping God, while the Divided God that was one is similar to the God shattered into a million slivers. I think Serwa is like Ghanima, could she give birth to a future royal line.
The similarities that struck me most were those of Stillgar and Duncan Idaho both helped the ascent of Paul Atreides. In Earwa Proyas brings to mind Stillgar, the old stalwart who is the first to discover Kellhus and helps in his ascent to Godhood, and then is the person entrusted with secret knowledge that is to help in a future without his living God. And Meppa who seems to be a riff on Hayt the ghola of Duncan Idaho. Both do not know their past identity, and is the confidant of a king, and while the ghola has metal Tleilaxu eyes that give him greater vision, Meppa has a silver shield over his missing eyes. The Bene Gesserit seems to be broken into two pieces, one is the Dunyain and the other seems to be the Mandate. There is a quote where someone says “the Bene Gesserit want what they always want, for the universe to leave them alone” which it is the same goal of the Dunyain. That along with all of the obvious physical and mental capabilities of a Reverend Mother. While the Mandate has the other memory in the form of Seswatha’s homunculus inside, giving them access to things coveted by their rivals. The Bene Gesserit call the Honored Matres the whores just as the Mandate call the Scarlett Spire the whores. Melange seems to be the Gnosis; the Honored Matres want the abilities that the spice agony gives new Reverend Mothers, while the Scarlett Spires want the Gnosis.
Farradan the grandson of Shaddam has similarities to two characters, one Fanayal the son of a deposed monarch trying to restore his line to the throne, and Sorweel who is an enemy of the Anasurimbor and yet can’t help to be seduced by them. Yet Sorweel seems also to be partly based upon Siona, who could disappear from the prescience of Leto who is like Sorweel who can disappear from the sight of Kellhus and his children. The relationship of Xerius and Conphas seems to be inspired by Baron Vladimir and Feyd Rautha, the young heir who wants kill the monarch to take their place yet who has a relationship of familial ambition.   
And now for some other random observations, there is a part where Sheena and Odrade ride a sandworm into the desert, and Odrade thinks about the place where the God-Emperor fell to his death and muses that many people died there but the death of Leto marked this place. This brings to mind the death of the No-God and of the topoi in general. There is a place in Dune Messiah where the Fremen women of the southern sietch in reaction to Alia, in which they use the quote about witches which is very similar to the quote about whores. While reading a book about alchemy I came across the name of Abraham Eleazar the Jew, a mythical priest who brought the secrets of alchemy Nicholas Flamel, very similar to Eleazareas the grandmaster of the Scarlett Spires. In one conversation Leto states that prophecy creates events to bring itself about. In Dune Messiah at the beginning of the book, Bronso of Ix has written a book about Paul Atreides that has been banned as heretical much like the book of Achamian. And finally the Golden Lion Throne of Shaddam, which brings to mind the Golden Throne Room of Sil in the Ark.     
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 26, 2014, 01:19:55 pm
Really awesome post, Ciogli.

I did a Dune read-through a couple years ago, it might be soon time to do another.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: mrganondorf on August 29, 2014, 09:56:58 pm
Ciogli, there was a lot more there than I suspected!  Maybe I'm due for a Dune reread too...
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 01, 2014, 12:20:14 pm
Wow, good things Ciogli. Some of that seems a bit of a stretch, but there is plenty of good similarities.

I never thought about Siona and Sorweel. I wonder if Sorweel was somehow chosen  for a role by Kellhus specifically because he knew he wouldn't be able to be sure what he did, much like how Leto II and Siona.

The Kell/Esmi/Serwa triangle is also a good one, though Serwa has less clout than Irulan. Though, like you said, they both served a purpose, which was to appease the masses. While Paul was using Irulan to bolster his political relationship with powerful players, Kellhus used Serwa to appease the masses.

Thanks for the words.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 01, 2014, 08:20:55 pm
Great post Cigoli, lots of little things I remember noticing briefly while reading and then totally forgetting (and also I plenty I never thought of at all, like the Siona/Sorweel stuff and Esmi/Serwe being Chiani/Irulan). I personally think the Dune connections in TSA are pretty huge overall, and that the plot and characters actually draw more from Dune than any other existing work, whereas the setting and lore of TSA is more where the LOTR connections come in. It's pretty crazy how much of the series is really a mixture of these two works, which is not to insult the ingenuity of Bakker's stuff -- to me, Bakker's way of taking inspiration from earlier stuff is kind of the best way, since there's always some kind of unique little twist or inversion to everything that makes it his own. The end result is something that feels (and is) wildly fresh and unique. It's strange to say but I totally believe that more writers could learn from this method, and more importantly, writers could UNDERSTAND the process underlying it. Plenty of authors do the exact same thing, but they lack the self-awareness of it. Bakker's self-awareness is what allows him to reinvent this stuff.

It's part of why even now I still lean towards Meppa being Moe. This arc in particular for me just fits way too perfectly with the arc between Leto II and Paul, all the way down to the father (Moe/Paul) coming back from the desert as a blind, weathered religious figure opposing the very ideals which he initially gave birth to. Even if Meppa isn't Moe, there's NO WAY that Bakker was unaware of the connection here, and so it serves as a red herring. Either way, there had to be some intent there. Bakker's self-awareness of these inspirations is just too precise for it to be an accident, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on September 02, 2014, 05:21:00 am
Yawn. Meppa isn't moe.  The twist on dune is that meppa is Moe's dad. Grand sire anasurimbor.   Further the Bakker style riff twist you're discussing is that he has combined Duncan Idaho and the atreides into a single unit. Every generation gets an idaho clone. Every generation gets an anasurimbor clone, and like kellhus they all think they are special unique snowflakes.



All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2014, 05:32:19 pm
Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.

Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: locke on September 02, 2014, 07:00:19 pm
Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.

Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....
White hair.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2014, 07:01:33 pm
Well there ya go. Obviously my memory for detail is poor at best. The shoe fits.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 07:03:34 pm
Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.

Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....

Neat!  Moenghus himself was sent for???
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Ciogli on September 07, 2014, 08:35:23 pm
A thing that struck me about God Emperor was the ghola of Duncan Idaho, his constant whining throughout the book really annoyed me. By the end I really couldn't stand him as a character, and the main reason he helped Siona assassinate Leto, and on his wedding day no less was not for some high minded purpose like freedom or other, but because Hwi Noree would not leave Leto for him. And then to top it off he savagely kills Nayla for following his orders when it led to Hwi's death, because he did not know that Hwi was in the royal cart with Leto. This sounds suspiciously like a character from Earwa, Achamian leaves the service of Kellhus and becomes a hermit for two decades because he lost Esmenet. And Kellhus says that he will kneel before him at the end, if Akka actually succeeds in getting to Kellhus there might be a confrontation. 
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Francis Buck on September 07, 2014, 10:11:50 pm
A thing that struck me about God Emperor was the ghola of Duncan Idaho, his constant whining throughout the book really annoyed me. By the end I really couldn't stand him as a character, and the main reason he helped Siona assassinate Leto, and on his wedding day no less was not for some high minded purpose like freedom or other, but because Hwi Noree would not leave Leto for him. And then to top it off he savagely kills Nayla for following his orders when it led to Hwi's death, because he did not know that Hwi was in the royal cart with Leto. This sounds suspiciously like a character from Earwa, Achamian leaves the service of Kellhus and becomes a hermit for two decades because he lost Esmenet. And Kellhus says that he will kneel before him at the end, if Akka actually succeeds in getting to Kellhus there might be a confrontation. 

I do think something along these lines will happen, in particular I believe it very possible that Proyas will serve in a role similar to Nayla (two characters groomed into such devotion by their Living God that they will actually betray them purposefully, on said God's orders). I also think there's a good possibility of Achamian doing something that fucks up Kellhus's plans, only to realize later that doing so was a big mistake.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Aural on January 28, 2015, 12:57:39 pm
Nice discussion, all. I think with the Dûnyain Bakker might have combined the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu. That’s all I’ve got.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on January 28, 2015, 01:46:38 pm
Not the mentat? Though, I guess a mentat would be fairly unimpressive next to a gesserit/Tleilaxu offspring.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Aural on January 28, 2015, 01:57:16 pm
Then it’s all three... The BG for the breeding program, the Mentat for the abilities, and the Tleilax for the Axlotl tanks.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on January 28, 2015, 04:29:17 pm
The Tleilaxu were masters of new science and technological advancement. I can't decide if the Dunyain would fall into that category (aside from the tanks of course, and the mysterious absence of dunyain women).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: EkyannusIII on January 29, 2015, 12:17:34 am
Possible Dune reference: 

The Guild Navigators "fold space" in order to briefly associate two points in space as identical, thus permitting instantaneous movement across interstellar distances.  If you read the first scene in which Kellhus translocates, in TTT right after his chat with Papa Moe, it says that Kellhus "sang a cant in three voices."  I think this is a concept of travel akin to that the Navigators use because of the explicit mention of three voices: one to describe the starting point in terms of the onta, another to describe the destination, and the third to momentarily join them so the cantor can move instantly. 

This is all extreme supposition of course.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: EkyannusIII on January 29, 2015, 12:19:42 am
The Tleilaxu were masters of new science and technological advancement. I can't decide if the Dunyain would fall into that category (aside from the tanks of course, and the mysterious absence of dunyain women).

Inchoroi with their womb-Ark and other Tekne artifacts seem a better candidate for both Tleilaxu and Ix.  Mentats and Bene Gesserit are better mapped onto the Dunyain.

Given that the Ixians
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Aural on January 29, 2015, 04:46:51 am
Quote
Inchoroi with their womb-Ark and other Tekne artifacts seem a better candidate for both Tleilaxu and Ix.  Mentats and Bene Gesserit are better mapped onto the Dunyain.

Well, Bakker has been quoted up-thread as saying that the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu. But I guess you can disagree with that.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2015, 01:51:28 pm
Well, Bakker has been quoted up-thread as saying that the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu. But I guess you can disagree with that.
Haha, that is a real shame. I really want to disagree :P.

Bakker wasn't much of a fan of the series past Children of Dune, so maybe while subconsciously writing a homage to the Tlelaxu via Inchoroi, he consciously rebels against the idea, and is in fact unaware of the connection.

Disregarding all that, I do tend to agree that the Inchoroi are better candidates than the Dunyain. BG/Mentat definitely fits the Dunyain.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: EkyannusIII on January 29, 2015, 10:17:40 pm
Quote
Inchoroi with their womb-Ark and other Tekne artifacts seem a better candidate for both Tleilaxu and Ix.  Mentats and Bene Gesserit are better mapped onto the Dunyain.

Well, Bakker has been quoted up-thread as saying that the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu. But I guess you can disagree with that.

I suppose that proves me wrong, but I only read the new posts and this thread was started in June 2013. I can't say I feel guilty. ;)
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: mrganondorf on May 21, 2015, 08:29:59 pm
Possible Dune reference: 

The Guild Navigators "fold space" in order to briefly associate two points in space as identical, thus permitting instantaneous movement across interstellar distances.  If you read the first scene in which Kellhus translocates, in TTT right after his chat with Papa Moe, it says that Kellhus "sang a cant in three voices."  I think this is a concept of travel akin to that the Navigators use because of the explicit mention of three voices: one to describe the starting point in terms of the onta, another to describe the destination, and the third to momentarily join them so the cantor can move instantly. 

This is all extreme supposition of course.

i love it!  nice find!

i feel like the Sarkdaukar have some kind of analogue...

Padishah Emperor = Xerius?
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on August 08, 2016, 12:48:02 am
Just reminding myself to move this thread and update as of TGO 8).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: H on August 25, 2016, 07:25:53 pm
I've been listening to Dune over the last few weeks and I am hearing so many shades of TSA over the course of it.  Most of the obvious things have been covered here, but interestingly enough, in one part, where Paul and Jessica are in the tent trying to figure out what to do now that Leto is dead, Paul refers to himself as a seed.

I haven't read all the other books yet, but I have an idea where it all goes, but I found that seemingly poignant (a la, Celmomas' words to Seswatha about Ishual).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 25, 2016, 08:18:48 pm
Oh man, how exciting for you, H. I listened to Dune audiobooks, whoever did it was a cast of people, and they did a good job. Shades of Dune all over TSA for sure.

Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: H on August 25, 2016, 08:51:08 pm
Oh man, how exciting for you, H. I listened to Dune audiobooks, whoever did it was a cast of people, and they did a good job. Shades of Dune all over TSA for sure.

I read the first book over 20 years ago now.  I'll get through them all eventuality.

I think in the same part Paul also refers to himself as a place a couple times.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: JRControl on August 26, 2016, 03:16:08 am
I think I stopped around the fourth or the fifth one. It lost the thread for me around these parts or what I liked about them and more into generic space opera business.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2016, 12:39:14 pm
For me, the first 2 were great, 3 was still good, 4 (God Emperor) was a bit odd, and then I really liked the last 2.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 01:39:23 pm
Oh man, how exciting for you, H. I listened to Dune audiobooks, whoever did it was a cast of people, and they did a good job. Shades of Dune all over TSA for sure.

Interesting... I really would just rather read but I get that somehow everyone has time while commuting for 14 hr books. And this sounds like a stage production.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 01, 2016, 05:52:23 pm
Not quite stage production, but its definitely a different flavour than one person doing voices. Not always better, but different. I know its really off-putting to some people, though I think its a nice change of pace.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: H on September 01, 2016, 06:06:04 pm
I have the audio books on my phone, so while I am going some menial work I just listen to the books rather than to music.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 02, 2016, 07:04:34 am
I finally convinced one of my friends to try The Prince of Nothing with this statement:  "It's about a mentat-prince who is the product of thousands of years of selective breeding to produce the Kwisatz Haderach who gets involved in a holy war in the desert."
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2016, 12:15:30 pm
Lol nice. Whatever it takes. You might have added:
And those damn tlelaxu aliens crash landing on said planet and trying to exterminate the native populace.

Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on September 02, 2016, 01:05:32 pm
I finally convinced one of my friends to try The Prince of Nothing with this statement:  "It's about a mentat-prince who is the product of thousands of years of selective breeding to produce the Kwisatz Haderach who gets involved in a holy war in the desert."

Congrats, CC.

It's amazing how much prosthelytizing these books take. You know, in lieu of the damn books being available to anyone, who say, walks into a bookstore :P.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 03, 2016, 01:14:44 pm
Jesus, tell me about it.  He's the third friend I've had to arm twist into reading them.  One of them I gave the PoN books as a gift (broke student, D&D wizard player, bio geek, smart as a whip) and another who is a big reader I had to practically lash with a whip into buying them despite the fact that he knows how good my taste is.  He does amateur book reviews and he admits they are awesome even if he finds them a little on the dark and disturbing side.

Me?  A friend passed The Darkness That Comes Before over and said "you'll probably like this" and I was hooked.  Done.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Jackehehe on May 07, 2017, 04:42:04 pm
I just finished the third book (Children of Dune) I felt I kind of lost interest by now because I don't really connect with any of the characters and the motives behind Letos actions completely elude me. Dunno, I feel like 'the hassle' involved in reading and understanding complex books isn't compensated for in the Dune books by having an amazing story (and other qualities) that Bakker's works have. It also might be that I don't really like Sci-Fi. It just feels kind of cheesy. I did some readings on wikipedia and apparently Leto turns into a sandworm (say whaaat). Is it worth to keep on reading when I really lost interest reading the third book? I feel like such a pessimist haha
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Madness on May 07, 2017, 04:53:57 pm
There is a marked change of quality - for better or worse, depending on the reader - in God-Emperor of Dune. There's also a large time gap between COD and GED.

I personally enjoyed GED, but if I recall Wilshire thinks that #4 is a drop in quality, though he likes #5 and #6. It pays to remember, I think, that the first three books were actually released as serials in SF mags, not read in novel form like we do. GED was the first in the saga that was written as a complete novel.

To each their own, of course.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on May 07, 2017, 05:41:11 pm
I just finished the third book (Children of Dune) I felt I kind of lost interest by now because I don't really connect with any of the characters and the motives behind Letos actions completely elude me. Dunno, I feel like 'the hassle' involved in reading and understanding complex books isn't compensated for in the Dune books by having an amazing story (and other qualities) that Bakker's works have. It also might be that I don't really like Sci-Fi. It just feels kind of cheesy. I did some readings on wikipedia and apparently Leto turns into a sandworm (say whaaat). Is it worth to keep on reading when I really lost interest reading the third book? I feel like such a pessimist haha
If you are going to read it through to the end, then I'd say read God Emperor is worth it. If you are pretty much disinterested at this point, I don't know if its worth you continuing reading.
The series ends on a bit of a sour note as Herbert really died before he was finished with it, so it doesn't really wrap up in a satisfying way.

If you've read Dune and Dune Messiah, you've gone far enough for the sake of the story/writing. Is there more story? Yes. Is it worth it? Not if you don't like it up through this point. I, personally, loved the last couple books. Children and God Emperor were just ok for me, but I'm glad I read it through.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: TaoHorror on May 07, 2017, 06:24:40 pm
Agreed - if you're losing interest now, then don't bother. God Emperor was my favorite, but haven't read Chapterhouse yet ( not sure why, guess derailed by other stuff ). But I loved all the first 5 ( I would rate 5 as my least favorite, but still liked it a lot ).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on May 07, 2017, 07:45:55 pm
I really like 5 and 6 some some reason. I think I liked the change of pace - its almost the start of an entirely new series. And Teg. Miles Teg is awesome.
Maybe I just enjoy aliens aliening around - and there is a bit more of that in Heretics and Chapterhouse.

Oh, in GED you find out why Leto did what he did. Though, I fear you'll not be terribly interested in it lol.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Jackehehe on May 09, 2017, 05:55:08 pm
Thanks for the input everryone! Right now im re-reading bits and pieces of the second apocalypse to keep myself occupied until july. We'll see how long that lasts and then I guess I might pick up on the books again. It feels kind of bad to stop in the middle of the series
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2017, 06:52:51 pm
Thanks for the input everryone! Right now im re-reading bits and pieces of the second apocalypse to keep myself occupied until july. We'll see how long that lasts and then I guess I might pick up on the books again. It feels kind of bad to stop in the middle of the series
Nah, don't feel bad. My rule is to give a series 1 book. Granted, that's largely because I was a bit shaky on TSA through about 3/4 of TDTCB, but whatever. A book should capture you, imo. In a series, it should be every book If you don't like it, don't keep reading the series.
There is far too much to read to waste time on a whole series that you don't like.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: TaoHorror on May 09, 2017, 08:40:03 pm
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: Hiro on May 09, 2017, 09:58:32 pm
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).

Funnily enough, the bits I liked best about American Gods were the quiet parts.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: H on May 10, 2017, 12:38:29 pm
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).

Yeah, I found American Gods quite boring and forgettable.  I read the whole thing, but damned if I can recall more than the slightest bit.

I felt the same way about Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, which was a fantastic book style-wise but horrendous to me plot-wise.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: MSJ on May 11, 2017, 12:38:18 pm
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).

Yeah, I found American Gods quite boring and forgettable.  I read the whole thing, but damned if I can recall more than the slightest bit.

I felt the same way about Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, which was a fantastic book style-wise but horrendous to me plot-wise.

I actually liked the book,, as its fresh in my mind. Gaiman isn't knocking my socks off with the prose or anything. But, its a decent enough story. As I just read it, the series makes plenty of sense and they're following the book pretty closely.
Title: Re: Dune (Frank Herbert) and TSA (Bakker)
Post by: H on May 11, 2017, 01:47:34 pm
I actually liked the book,, as its fresh in my mind. Gaiman isn't knocking my socks off with the prose or anything. But, its a decent enough story. As I just read it, the series makes plenty of sense and they're following the book pretty closely.

I'll probably watch the show eventually.  Just low on free time, as per the norm.

I'll probably enjoy the show more than the book, really, which would probably be a first.