The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:53:54 pm

Title: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:53:54 pm
Quote from: Octavian
While skimming through the appendix and other chapters I realized that we do not get mentions of them outside the fact that they found the Ark and the Brothers Inchoroi. I mean we know that they are a part of the Consult, but whereas Mek is mention and so to Aurang and Aurax we never get a mention of not one member of the School, not even during any of the battles of the Apocalypse. Which is weird when you think about it because they had Seswatha to contend with as well as the rest of the Schools. Yet even in Seswatha's dreams we don't see them. Even in the WLW when Sorweel and his company stumble across the 10 Yoke Legion, they are being controlled by Quya.

We know that Shae has always been known for his subtly and Kellhus guessed that it takes a group of Sorcerers to power Aurang's Synthese. So what I am thinking is that we don't them because they are too valuable to lose maybe? Maybe the No God cannot be summoned/powered without them.

Or maybe I am just reading to far into it. Ijist find it curious that out of all the battles we are briefed about in the series, Shae and Co. are not mentioned in being in one.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:06 pm
Quote from: Francis Buck
I would imagine it's somewhat like you said, in that they're not used in the field for battles because of their value as Gnostic sorcerors. Considering the only Inchoroi left are Aurang and Aurax, there must be someone else doing all the "work" in the Ark (whatever the hell that work is). And since they already have legions of Sranc, Bashrag, Wracu, etc. (or at least they did), it makes sense to save the Mangaecca to be the "brains behind the operation" so to speak (again, who else is there other than the two Inchoroi?). Do we even know just how many of them joined up in the first place? They must, by now, almost certainly have been made immortal or at least have had their lifespans radically increased, although who knows what foul reproductive methods are possible with the Tekne.

Either way, it's like you said: we know very, very little about them, so it's hard to say exactly why their presence has been so minimal thus far (at least that we're aware of).
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
In WLW, Serwa recounts that she has battled Shaeonanra as Seswatha in the Dreams. I want her perspective so badly... one of the few women and the only any part Dunyain, that we know of, to dream the Dreams.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:20 pm
Quote from: Octavian
Quote from: Madness
In WLW, Serwa recounts that she has battled Shaeonanra as Seswatha in the Dreams. I want her perspective so badly... one of the few women and the only any part Dunyain, that we know of, to dream the Dreams.

Do you remember the passage? I would like to read it. Serwa is really interesting, I often wonder which part of her is stronger. The Seswatha or the Dunyain. While reading the False Sun I got the feeling that Shae might not have been the most powerful, but he was certainly amongst the smartest. I am willing to bet that he played a huge part in the summoning of the No God. I've always thought that they used sorcerous means to extend their lives, but it could also be part Tekne.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:26 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Octavian
While reading the False Sun I got the feeling that Shae might not have been the most powerful, but he was certainly amongst the smartest.
But intelligence and analytical ability brings power when your metaphysics are the Gnosis.

Yeah I'm assuming the Maengaecca are holding back. So far the Consult has barely committed anything against the Great Ordeal. Just the Ten Yoke Legion and a unit of Bashrags. Why bother when you can let attrition and the Horde take out a fourth of their strength before they even reach your first strongholds?

I'm assuming unless they go entirely scorched earth that we'll see them very soon in Unholy Consult though. I got the impression that Dagliash was actually garrisoned, so it will be the first real engagement between the Ordeal and a determined Consult force.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:33 pm
Quote from: Madness
"I have battled Shauriatas in my Dreams. I have been tortured by Mekeritrig. Chased across Earwa by Aurax and Aurang. The Consult is as real as it is wicked and deadly, Sorweel. Short of my father, the world knows no powers more ferocious. Even absent the No-God and the Second Apocalypse, the warrant the blood-thirsty fanaticism of Men" (WLW, p709).

Only months late, Octavian.

I assume that the life-extension is a reflection of sorcery and Tekne, though the Ch.1 Excerpt from TUC provides more insight into that, I believe.

I think Dagliash will be garrisoned as well, Sharmat. However, will it simply be the instruments of the Tekne, the Sranc, Ursranc, Bashrag, Wracu, Skin-Spies, and any new inventions or the immortal tools of the Consult, the Nonmen and the Maengecca themselves?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:41 pm
Quote from: Octavian
Alas, that sample chapter for TUC was such a tease. For it opens up more questions about the school than it answers, but that is a good thing. Thus far the only Gnostic on Gnostic battle we have scene has been Akka vs Cleric, which wasn't really a proper battle. It makes me very curious to see how Quya and Maganecca stack up against the assembled schools of the new empire, Kellhus and the Meta-Gnostic.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
Good to know you're hovering around, Octavian.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and its funny as this is one of the chief reasons to anticipate TUC: I want the GNOSIS!

Dagliash may or may not mark our first true witness of Gnosis vs. Gnosis conflagration - like you, I count Achamian vs. Nilgiccas as quite the tease. Seswatha (Average Mandati) can probably hold out against Quya 1v1. Achamian goes toe to toe with Nil'giccas, who must be of the more powerful Quya, though obviously skewed, it does suggest that two or three Gnostic sorcerers wouldn't have too much trouble with a Quya. Achamian, also, goes 1v1 against the Daimotic Ciphrang and about 1v5 with the Anagogis (factoring for sorcerers-of-rank vs. adepts at the Sareotic Library).

However, there are quickly issues. It's been mentioned that the Ordeal serves as a basic vehicle for the Schoolman and, of course, the number of Chorae.

At the very least, the Consult field only Gnostic Schoolmen and Quya. At worst, they have Aporetic Schoolmen and Quya, as well as, whatever other sorcery the Consult have found in the labyrinth.

This puts the Ordeal at a significant disadvantage. In the new hierarchy, Kellhus is most powerful. Then, of the remaining Mandate and Swayal, there is percentage of Metagnostic sorcerers, which significant or not, is restricted to only Gnostic users.

Unless the Scarlet Spires utilize the Daimos, they and all the remaining Schools are little more than sorcerous fodder before the sorceries of the Consult.

Are Kellhus and the Metagnostics enough to tip the scales, if the Consult field sorcerers at Dagliash?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:54:56 pm
Quote from: Octavian
I'm interested in the Daimos bring unleashed, not because the potential threat that the ciphang may or may not pose, but because of the reaction they may inspire. Remember, Shae was freaked out at the mere thought of damnation and the outside, now they have the very beings that inhabit the place banging at their front door.

I remember reading somewhere in the first book how Akka was something along the lines of a War Cant Master and would actually haves been higher in position of the Mandate if it wasn't for politics. Many people didn't like the confrontation between him and Cleric but I personally loved it. Akka only sung cants for shields and wards, complex ones at that and bid his time for the perfect chance to strike, and he got it. This isn't a knock towards Cleric but a nod towards Akka.

Kellhus bested Mek in swordsmanship and only ran when sorcery came into play. He also took out like 3-5 Cish by himself at Shimeh. Its been 20 years since then, what he has come up with since then can only be guessed at, but I mean when the man walks the sky he causes thousands of Sranc to go flying.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:03 pm
Quote from: Madness
Kellhus is likely super-powerful but if he might have accomplished his plans himself, he probably would have.

Also, people make a great deal out of Kellhus' prowess at Shimeh, however, mostly he takes out the Cishaurim with non-sorcerous means (Chorae, Enshoiya), and simply confounds them with his Cant of Transposing.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:12 pm
Quote from: Octavian
Yes, I agree totally and that's what makes that battle to me so interesting. The only other time I remember seeing a mix of sorcery and physical fighting was from the scene when the skin eaters did battle in Cil Aujas from Cleric.

What i was getting at is that the Ordeal does its own forces that can be reckoned with from appearances. Now how they are actually used is something else.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:21 pm
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:29 pm
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!


Would you say that it will be...memorable?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:37 pm
Quote from: jogrady
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Madness
I personally think that should the Consult take the field with sorcerers at Dagliash that the Ordeal would lose... Ah! Cannot wait, eh, Octavian? It's gonna be epic!!!


Would you say that it will be...memorable?


Not sure exactly what youre trying to say here Triskele, but maybe it lines up with a theory I have. That theory is that one great event can renew the nonmen erratic. At first, I though a nonman/woman birth would be the key event, but an epic battle could do the trick. That battle could be a reset, a point that has so many people, so many wonderful and terrible actions that can reset an sustain the nonman psyche.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:46 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Seems unlikely.  After all, the nonmen all lived through the first apocalypse. They all have memories of war and death and unnamed atrocities that they have both witnessed and committed. Seeing the extinction, or near extinction, of another population of humans just wouldn't be enough to have that kind of impact.
The birth of a nonman child would be far more likely to trigger some kind of response. I think, if something like a reset could happen, it would be through an act of unfathomable kindness. It has to be something anathema to the Nonmen, something utterly new. Repetition of the old pains is not going to cause anything notable.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:55:53 pm
Quote from: Madness
No, Trisk... but I will feel the shadow pleasure will cast across the pain that follows ;).

It'd be neat, jogrady, if the Nonmen could have a redemptive moment - it will certainly take something like that for them ever to support humans wholesale.

On the opposite end, the Nonmen are about to have the ultimate chance for an Erratic moment... choosing to sacrifice the Ordeal for memories.

I think, it's pretty safe bet though that Serwa is a pregnancy lure.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:56:00 pm
Quote from: Octavian
Madness, I think the same. There are so many seeds that have been planted for it. The human male who got the nonman nobles wife pregnant (the baby was born and raised as a nonman). Also, the Kellhus and his lineage are said to have nonman blood, pointing to why they lived so long prior to the Dunyain.

Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife, deeply. Serwa and her share the same mother and she was Kellhus's blood and some of his Dunyain makeup. Plus she bears Seswatha inside her, what will the nonmen see indeed when the gaze upon her?

That seen before they left and it was stated that Kellhus took her away and spook to her secretly always reminded me of the scene in Return of the King where Elrond did the same with Arwen. I wonder what was said.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:56:14 pm
Quote from: Madness
Well, there's a speculation going around that Esmenet is also somehow of the ancient Cunoroi/Halaroi stock.

Though, there is definitely something else going on with the women in Esmenet's family.

Oh, Serwa... she's an object of my obsession, that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 04:17:25 pm
Lol, segues abound.

I think the question remains - will there be notable personages among the Mangaecca or are they relegated to be the Consult's inept henchmen?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: locke on June 05, 2013, 06:53:04 pm
Perhaps everyone has misunderstood/misinterrpreted the metaphysics of the earwa universe (including diagetic in universe interpretations) and the mantle actually flows through the female line, not the male line?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on June 06, 2013, 01:17:01 pm
I'm assuming your line of thought, perhaps.

But I think that opens to a great question though: Are the Mangaecca composed of original stock, kept alive across the millenia by various means? Do they recruit? Train the captured children of the remaining Northern tribes like the Werigda?
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on June 06, 2013, 03:21:34 pm
Or maybe they capture little children collecting salt...

But I suppose it is possible that people from the remaining norther tribes could be recruited. Or Eanna even. There is nothing that says the Three Seas has a monopoly of babies that can see the onta. Would it be worth it though? Could you find a child from the wasted North that could rival the intelegence of Shae? Probably not. But they could make good cannon fodder.

However, the Aporos seems to be a pretty lame branch of sorcery. All it does is negate sorcery. I suppose if they could maintain no-magic fields that kept their enemies from using theirs but allowed the Inchoroi to rain down the pain, that could be useful.

Don't know enough about it to say whether or not it would be useful to have a bunch of new kids running around.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 01:38:18 am
Could you find a child from the wasted North that could rival the intelegence of Shae? Probably not. But they could make good cannon fodder.

Well, if the Mangaecca exists anymore in human numbers this is really the only option. And Shaeonanra is an anomaly. He figured out how to do something that Mangaeccan Grandmasters of over two hundred years couldn't do.

The rest of the Mangaecca were originally derived from normal human stock. If anything, being brutal to begin with and using the IF as a tool of indoctrination is probably horrifyingly effective.

Lol - "You're of the Few. Come train with us and have power" followed by a nicely timed "oh, yeah, fyi, doing sorcery Marks you as Damned, here look at this" ;).
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Garet Jax on January 28, 2014, 01:19:19 pm
Lol - "You're of the Few. Come train with us and have power" followed by a nicely timed "oh, yeah, fyi, doing sorcery Marks you as Damned, here look at this" ;).

Thank you for that.  Hadn't had a good laugh while at work in a while.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 28, 2014, 03:56:14 pm
Cannon fodder seems ambiguous. I don't know what I was implying, but I suppose you could say any Aporatic schoolman other than Shae could be considered as such. Besides, it would be hard to make a few billion chorae to furnish an entire sranc army immune to sorcery, so he might need some initiates to work for a few thousand years to do so. Sounds like condescending work for someone as brilliant as Shae (and with his ego).
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 10:13:08 pm
Cannon fodder seems ambiguous. I don't know what I was implying, but I suppose you could say any Aporatic schoolman other than Shae could be considered as such. Besides, it would be hard to make a few billion chorae to furnish an entire sranc army immune to sorcery, so he might need some initiates to work for a few thousand years to do so. Sounds like condescending work for someone as brilliant as Shae (and with his ego).

I'm back on the "replenishing regular Gnostic Mangaeccan sorcerers."

Aporatic, smaporatic, I've been sufficiently convinced than an Aporos wielding sorcerer will be impossible or lame.

Lol - "You're of the Few. Come train with us and have power" followed by a nicely timed "oh, yeah, fyi, doing sorcery Marks you as Damned, here look at this" ;).

Thank you for that.  Hadn't had a good laugh while at work in a while.

I'm proud. I also laughed when the logic came upon me.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 05:46:46 pm
I'm back on the "replenishing regular Gnostic Mangaeccan sorcerers."

I'll allow it. Why wouldn't they at least try? 4000 years is a long time.

Aporatic, smaporatic, I've been sufficiently convinced than an Aporos wielding sorcerer will be impossible or lame.

I agree, but they can still do lame things like be chained to tables and forces to endlessly turn little metal balls and wooden sticks into a massive stockpile of anti-sorcery weapons and armor. I doubt one sends an Aporetic Sorcerer into the field, as they probably only have anti-magic magic, which makes them almost entirely useless since everyone has Ward, and chorae are permanent.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 07:03:13 pm
I'm back on the "replenishing regular Gnostic Mangaeccan sorcerers."

I'll allow it. Why wouldn't they at least try? 4000 years is a long time.

Elsewhere (this forum and otherwise) the consensus seems to be that the Mangaecca don't recruit humans and that Shauriatas is the only OG left.

Aporatic, smaporatic, I've been sufficiently convinced than an Aporos wielding sorcerer will be impossible or lame.

I agree, but they can still do lame things like be chained to tables and forces to endlessly turn little metal balls and wooden sticks into a massive stockpile of anti-sorcery weapons and armor. I doubt one sends an Aporetic Sorcerer into the field, as they probably only have anti-magic magic, which makes them almost entirely useless since everyone has Ward, and chorae are permanent.

Lol - keyword being: lame!
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 07:52:16 pm
Lame =/= unimportant. Perhaps taking 20 years to properly launch The Ordeal in the first place was lame, but some things need to be done for the sake of victory.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 08:25:12 pm
I'm a sociocultural junkie so I thought that the whole "organizing an entire empire to properly launch the Ordeal" was awesome!

Not lame.

However: lame =/= unimportant.

Stupid aporetic sorcerers.

*kicks cat*
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 08:56:20 pm
lmao. Laughing at your computer screen at work raises questions, stop it.

I'm pretty sure they know that the excel spreadsheet is not that funny.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 01:30:07 am
The Quorum's been bringing out the wit o'Madness ;).

Spreadsheets can be funny.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wic on January 30, 2014, 01:55:41 am
Lame =/= unimportant. Perhaps taking 20 years to properly launch The Ordeal in the first place was lame, but some things need to be done for the sake of victory.
If we assume that the average age of the soldiers is in the ~18ish range, that makes an entire adult generation that have never known a world without the Aspect Emperor in it.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 30, 2014, 02:33:02 am
It was just a random example, I wasn't trying to suggest that it was a bad idea :P, and in truth, I loved how the book actually addressed some major issues with fielding such a massive host.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Duskweaver on January 30, 2014, 09:58:54 am
The archetypal mage-smith chained to his own anvil and forced to churn out magic items really should be lame, in the literal sense. Just saying. ;)
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on January 30, 2014, 01:47:02 pm
archetypal mage-smith

Wait hold on, there is an archetypal mage-smith? I thought it was a unique idea  :(
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 05:46:16 pm
The archetypal mage-smith chained to his own anvil and forced to churn out magic items really should be lame, in the literal sense. Just saying. ;)

To be clear, I actually don't think the Mihtrulic School or sorcerous objects are lame. Just aporetic mage-smiths ;).
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Duskweaver on January 30, 2014, 09:26:41 pm
'Twas a joking reference to Weyland/Vulcan/Hephaestus/Vaul and all the other similar characters in myth and fiction. The 'enslaved crippled magical smith' concept seems to be popular.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 09:35:57 pm
Hm. Very interesting.

Aside, note that my last post (Lol - just like this comment) is a manifestation of my inane obsession with my being communicative clear more than trying to shut down your commentary.

We have Theliopa? Though to the point, I can't think of a reason why there aren't still capable, possibly even, OG Nonmen practioners of the Aporos working for the Consult?
- I realize that they would have had to endure a long period of oppression, hiding, or both between the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars and the breaking of the Glamour Barricades.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: MG on April 05, 2014, 12:14:02 am
Just thinking, the Mandate's monopoly of the Gnosis is so important to them, it seems like the Maganecca should have at least threatened to teach the Gnosis to other schools just to make the Mandate anxious.  Maybe they did.  Maybe we'll get an Atrocity Tale about it later.  I can see the Maganecca failing to go through with the threat because a Gnosis-armed Three Seas would take longer to overwhelm, but if I were Mandate, I would worry about their lust to kill Seswatha's school overcoming all other concerns.

EDIT: Perhaps many of the skirmished for the 1700 years after the first apocalypse had a lot to do with the Mandate wanting to keep the Maganecca from contacting other schools in the south.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on April 05, 2014, 07:36:10 pm
Not sure if the Mangecca would condescend to teach the Three-Seas their gnosis.



EDIT:
I'm about 90% sure there was more to this post when I originally sent it, but I guess its gone now :P
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: MG on April 06, 2014, 05:13:50 am
Not sure if the Mangecca would condescend to teach the Three-Seas their gnosis.

Yeah, I don't know that they would, but they have to consider the threat of teaching the gnosis as another pressure on the Mandate.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: locke on April 07, 2014, 12:32:55 am
well the mangaecca and the mandate both have incentives to enforce non-proliferation of the gnosis, neither really has an incentive to proliferate such a weapon, particularly because weapons have a habit of being turned on their donors eventually.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: MG on April 07, 2014, 09:39:02 pm
well the mangaecca and the mandate both have incentives to enforce non-proliferation of the gnosis, neither really has an incentive to proliferate such a weapon, particularly because weapons have a habit of being turned on their donors eventually.

IDK, imagine the Consult emissary showing up in Carythusal making the Scarlet Spires an offer they can't reject.  Whoever wants some sweet-ass gnosis only needs to journey north to have a look at this "inverse fire" thingy.  :)
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2014, 01:50:47 pm
well the mangaecca and the mandate both have incentives to enforce non-proliferation of the gnosis, neither really has an incentive to proliferate such a weapon, particularly because weapons have a habit of being turned on their donors eventually.

IDK, imagine the Consult emissary showing up in Carythusal making the Scarlet Spires an offer they can't reject.  Whoever wants some sweet-ass gnosis only needs to journey north to have a look at this "inverse fire" thingy.  :)

That is a pretty good rebuttal. The Mangecca might not actually have to teach anyone, but just offer it. The Anagogic school would be eager to learn, and it wouldn't take much compelling to get them to come with them, especially if the Inchoroi used skin-spies and such.
Title: Re: The Maganecca
Post by: MG on April 12, 2014, 10:56:31 pm
well the mangaecca and the mandate both have incentives to enforce non-proliferation of the gnosis, neither really has an incentive to proliferate such a weapon, particularly because weapons have a habit of being turned on their donors eventually.

IDK, imagine the Consult emissary showing up in Carythusal making the Scarlet Spires an offer they can't reject.  Whoever wants some sweet-ass gnosis only needs to journey north to have a look at this "inverse fire" thingy.  :)

That is a pretty good rebuttal. The Mangecca might not actually have to teach anyone, but just offer it. The Anagogic school would be eager to learn, and it wouldn't take much compelling to get them to come with them, especially if the Inchoroi used skin-spies and such.

Skin spies would not only be impressive, give 'em a few chorae and they can just compel a few sorcerers to go north.  Bind up like Akka on the slog, take 'em into a desolate spot, get picked up by a nonman chariot.  Later, scarlet magi return with a consult emissary and a story to tell.