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Messages - TheDeliverator

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1
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus
« on: July 30, 2016, 02:20:41 am »
Lol - one of those is me; the other is you ;)?!

In light of TGO.  What do you see... now?

The ability to to view\be the fractions is related to the absolute and yet hasn't helped the Nonmen.

What is missing?

2
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus
« on: July 29, 2016, 12:33:15 am »
Any thoughts on Koringhus' reference to fractions of his soul and Nil'Giccas\Incariol\Cleric's battle\attempt to Become at the end of WLW?

The Internet way back machine points to Dunyain and Nonmen and Seswatha's Elju(s)


...the first two books (Hyperion + Fall of Hyperion) are heads and shoulders above the latter two, and can be viewed as their own work if you prefer.

But yes, hopefully Bakker doesn't head in that direction.

This

3
News/Announcements / Re: The Second Apocalypse v3
« on: April 12, 2014, 09:39:32 pm »
As someone who used to own and admin a vB forum, I can truthfully write...

Y'all do what you feel as best.  I'll be happy however it turns out.  It's gonna be work (even if a labor of love), and I'll appreciate however it all turns out.

4
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 09, 2013, 09:33:37 pm »
I think we're ignoring some fairly obvious intentions - this seems to reflect the Erratic's great act of trauma and, to me, it seems obvious that Cleric cannot kill Achamian until he remembers Seswatha.

You'll have some of my thoughts in that other thread. However, in light of discussion here, I might hazard the alternative that trying to remember Nil'giccas and the acts Cleric must do, to do so, just isn't fun. Memories are a big thing here, and while I support lockesnow's assertion that we should consider Earwan reality, rather than our own (metaphysical consequences of the mundane, etc), we might first analogize towards degenerations akin to Alzheimer's; stranded in a perpetual now.

How common does the collective on this forum believe nonman Memory Fulcrums are?  How many fulcrums could remain in the current world after thousands of years?  Akka reminds Nil'giccas of Seswatha.  Mimara of his wife.  In addition, not all of the mandate can serve as Seswatha or the Cleric (with his imperative to constantly seek Memory Fulcrums), would have sought out the Mandate long before.  It seems to me, the time spent alongside Mimara and Achamian may be the least miserable existence Celric has had in a loooong time...  thus, his only chance to achieve Becoming in an age.  Rendering him easily manipulated.

Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

Hmmmmm...

I'm willing to be lead somewhere if your willing to show the way.  Whatever the benefits are, they can't in anyway prevent Damnation...  or Nonmen would never have gone over to the Consult.

+1. I wonder if that might have been Cleric's intention, hell, even Kellhus'?! We return again to the question of effects; Nil'giccas is noted as tasting different than Cu'jara Cinmoi.

I'm still rooting for Maggot being Pre-Born with Nonmen ancestral memories 8)!
[/quote]

Makes me wonder if RSB is struggling with conveying all the info in the allotted pages the publisher will allow...  These books are damn short in comparison to the page counts of some authors which sell more.  This book is never coming out.

5
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 09, 2013, 02:53:41 pm »
Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

Hmmmmm...

I'm willing to be lead somewhere if your willing to show the way.  Whatever the benefits are, they can't in anyway prevent Damnation...  or Nonmen would never have gone over to the Consult.

6
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 08, 2013, 10:12:48 pm »
looks like the intarwebs ate part of my post...

Here it is:

A few things which bug me.

Why is Incariol\Cleric so insistent on killing Achamian\Mimara if he is going to Become\Divide?  Only thing I can come up with: The act must be the fulcrum for the event which will birth the new soul\consciousness.  If that's the case, what type of event birthed Incariol from Nil'giccas?  Damn... must have been crazy.  Vanquishing Wutteat had no affect on Becoming, so love\tragedy is definitely a factor

Also, can we be sure the Nonman was just trying to birth a new soul?  Perhaps something more?  Become a God?  I keep thinking what would be the point of Becoming a new soul...now (timing as ever Mr. Bakker!).  Another soul doomed to live a tortured life between memory and no memory, love, betrayal and tragedy.  Nil'giccas\Cleric already has that.  What about the confrontation to come would facilitate Becoming?  Can it just be the opportunity of having Akka and Mimara nearby be the reason to birth\divide?  And, if Nil'giccas failed, what does that portend?

Something else I haven't quite been able to ascertain.  Bakker's naming of the Nonman.  I had a larger post written in an attempt to identify a pattern when RSB writes the Nonman as Cleric and when as Nil'giccas... The Nonman and The Nonman King.  In the end I could not identify a pattern...

There is a distinct point in the chapter where Cleric\The Nonman is no longer used and Nil'giccas\Nonman King is.  Problem is, just as quick, Bakker sweeps Cleric back into the narrative along with Nil'giccas and I just couldn't prove Bakker was attempting to make a point to the reader.  It could just be something akin to: writing that section of the chapter on a different day.  <--- Unlikely, but when the kernel of awareness twinkled in my minds I eye thought Bakker would be more stark in his distinction.  Maybe one of y'all can figure it out.

7
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 08, 2013, 08:09:42 pm »
hmm, an oddball interpretation could be that Nonmen reincarnate souls onto themselves, in order to preserve an intact persona (Being) so that they can pursue Becoming (absorbed by Oblivion?).

Because of this quote, I am not convinced... yet. 

Quote
"So..."  the Nonman King said, raising eyes savage for their mirth.  "You offer me oblivion?" 

Too late the old Wizard recognized his mistake.

"No... I-"

The Nonman whirled, grasped him with a strength that made the Wizard feel bone thin, bone frail.  "I will not die a husk!" he cried.  He rolled his head from shoulder to shoulder in his curious, mad and explosive way.  He flung out his hands to clutch the air.

"No!  I will ruin and I will break!"

Also, it looks like I missed the  "I will not die a husk!" quote in my original post.  Shit.  This is a big line to miss.  It shows that the Nonman is planning on dying\dividing\birthing... but not an empty shell.  Note: It's like Bakker is revealing his revelations in groups.  Wutteat uses shell.  Nil'giccas uses husk

Something else...  right before Akka kills him...  The Nonman remembers Akka's (or Seswathwa's) name...

Quote
Your appeals only incite me!  You will die and I will remember!  Because all you do is reach for the love I bear you!"

"No! I will not strike you!"

The face of Nil'giccas resolved from the dwindling glare.  The setting sun rimmed his scalp with sickles of gold.  "I remember...  I remember your name..."

Light filled his howling mouth-blasphemous meaning...

At long last the Wizard struck

Is it possible Nil'giccas wasn't ready to actually kill Akka until that very moment of memory?  Does remembering his actual name add weight to remembering the betrayal?  He says "I will remember," then DOES actually remember the moment Akka refuses to strike (professes his love one MOAR time...  Finally tipping the scales), and begins to lash out at Achamian.  Have I lost the plot guys\gals?  I kinda think I have.

I wonder at the This is where I die comment, (followed by an assertion that he is nil giccis now) could nonmen see all three directions? Past present and future?  Is that becoming?  Is that why their statues/art are always in three phases of time?

Here's a bizarre question.  is the grafting of Bashrag (three fold, three arms, three legs etc) a crude attempt by the inchoroi to imitate nonmen art?

Interesting.  I like.

8
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 07, 2013, 07:00:13 pm »
I'm going to ramble a bit...  You've been warned!

Bakker's point in the Four Revelations...  To show how different Nonmen consciousness\souls are.  No?  Is there evidence Cinial’jin is an erratic at the moment\moments of the tale?  I assumed he was intact at the time of the tale.  Even if he is an erratic, I'm sot sure Bakker's point is any different.  Nilgiccas' quote from the end of WLW comes to mind. 

Quote
"We are many!" the Erratic roared.  "We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."

Simply, a Nonman soul can (somehow), count or is aware of the moments which divide it and of the divisions.  Man's cannot and thus believes itself to be One when it is in fact many divisions.  How can this not be connected to how we perceive Cinial’jin revelations?  Also, this appears to explain how Shaeönanra divides human souls to stay alive...

I don't see much of a connection to their Elju except that perhaps they would serve as an anchor to 'now'.

How could a proper Elju function w/o a small understanding of Nonmen consciousness?  Is it as simple as understanding how to use memory fulcrums?  If so, how would Kosoter have known how to manipulate Cleric by using Akka and Mimara as memory fulcrums?  Is it knowledge the Zaudyani Captain would have had just from his life experience?  Can it be random chance?  Did someone (Kelhus), teach him?  How does Kosoter become in possession of Cleric anyways...


Another tangent...  During his battle with Akka, Nilgiccas speaks of Becoming

Quote
Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul!


What is Nil'giccas' aim here?  What will he gain by shedding his soul and Becoming?  Surely Nilgiccas knows...  Do y'all?  I have an idea, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Also, does he fail in Becoming?  He asks Akka WTF just happened as he lies impaled?

I think I may have to start quoting earlier in the chapter, rather then just the quote which gave rise to my question.  I'm going to try and just use the character's words from the chapter.  Why?  The entire conversation takes place between episodes of Mimara's POV and is filled with descriptions Akka\The Nonman's actions\feelings...  A bunch of distractions!  Also, quoting huge swaths of book would lead to an even larger post than this already is.  All Italics and Capitalization are Bakker's...

Akka (Armed with the revelation from Mimara about who Cleric is), confronts the Nonman at Sauglish
Quote
"Incariol,"... "Why that name?"

N: "Because I wander."

A: "and Cleric?"

N: "It is a tradition... I think... A tradition among the Siqu to take a mannish name."

A: "You are Nil'giccas"... The Last King of Mansions."

N: "No, He is dead."

A: "No, He is quite Alive, gazing upon me"

Akka then falls prostrate at the Nonman's feet...

After Mimara's POV

Quote
N: "You are confused, mortal, Rise."

After a discussion of Kosoter being his book and the Nonman remembering Seswatha

Quote
A: "Please, my lord.  Take me as your book!... Regain your honour!  Reclaim your glory!"

N: "So... You offer me oblivion?"  "No, I will ruin and I will break."  "Honour?"  "Love?  What are these but dross before oblivion?  No! I will seize the world and I will shake from it what misery, what anguish, I can.  I will remember!"

Fairly straight forward so far.  The Nonman claiming Nil'giccas is dead can be seen as Nil'giccas being an erratic, etc...  Akka realizes he can't be the Nonman's book, he and Mimara are to be the memory fulcrum.

After the Nonman explains that Ishterbinth has turned to the Consult, a few Mimara POV's and finding Wutteat...

Quote
N: "This...  This is where I am meant to die."

The above is interesting, but perhaps not to this discussion...  unless it is?

After Akka's convo with Wutteat about truth...
Quote
N: "Run, Save them while you still can."

A: "Them?"

N: "Your wife and child."

Cleric (at the very least), knows who the father is.  He must (?), want them saved so he can remember them later.

After a Mimara POV & during the beginning of the Dragon fight

Quote
N: "I am Quaya! I am Ishroi!  Five of your sons and daughters I have slain!"

Wutteat: "YOU ARE BUT A SNAIL!  A SNAIL TORN FROM IT'S SHELL!"

N: "I am Nil'giccas-I am Cleric!  And you will hear my sermon!"

The Nonman says he is both Nil'giccas and Cleric!

Anyways, after a bunch of Mimara POV's and the end of the Dragon fight.  The Nonman empties his pouch of Qirri!  The motive for that is interesting but another topic... unless it's not.

Quote
A: "You don't have to do this!"

N: "Because I remember no triumph...  Only betrayal!  Heartbreak and ruin!

A: "I will name you!  I will be your book, and you will read me!  You are Nil'giccas!  The last King of Mansions-the greatest of the Siqu!"

N: Nil'giccas!  you call-beseech! as if trying to awaken some truth slumbering within me.  You think Nil'giccas is something I have lost!  And therefore something I can recover!  You forget, that before the Nonman King's passing, I did not exist! I can no more recover him than you can recover your mother's virgin womb.  I am Incariol!  Cleric!  And you shall not survive my lesson!  You think the cripple!  You think Cleric the ruin of someone whole!  But you are wrong, Seswatha! I am the Truth!  "We are many!" the Erratic roared.  "We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One.  Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul! Only then does Darkness sing untrammeled!  Only then!"

A: And yet you seek memories!

N: To be! Being is not a choice!

A: But you claim Being is deception!

N: Yes!

A: But that is nonsense! Madness!

N: That is Becoming

Akka then kills the Nonman.

Quote
N: What just happened?  Wh-what just..."

A: You found Glory

So...  When Akka kneels before the Nonman thinking he is Nil'giccas, the Nonman tells him to rise because the Nonman in front of him is no longer Nil'giccas, but Cleric.  Before the Nonman King's passing!?  Is the Cleric division speaking of Nil'giccas or another king (I'm assuming Nil'giccas, but perhaps the king in Cil Aujis)? 

The Nonman goes on to explain the divisions in the soul and that Cleric can not (somehow), access Nil'giccas.  The Nonman compares this to a child recovering his mother's womb.  So a division in the Nonman soul is in some sense born separate from the prior incarnation?  Cleric's soul has the DNA of Nil'giccas' soul, but is like a wee 'lil child soul!!???  Yet, the total Nonman soul is aware of it's division (alluded to at the top of this post). 

So in Becoming, is Cleric attempting to create a division in his soul or is the goal of becoming something else entirely?  Is this why he says to Akka "This is where I die?  Does he mean consciousness of Cleric divides here!?

I dunno guys\gals...

9
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Seswatha's Elju(s)
« on: July 06, 2013, 04:17:00 pm »
Did not RSB say that "The Four Revelations Of Cinial’jin," was a glimpse into how the consciousness\memory of Nonmen works?  If so, then perhaps a better understanding the Atrccity Tale may help in understand how an Elju functions.

10
General Earwa / Re: Chorae and the Judging Eye
« on: June 24, 2013, 02:27:57 am »
Unable to define all things Inchoroi?
I don't think Mim has seen anything Inchoroi.

Which leads back to me believing in my OP (falsely), that the Inchoroi had created the chorae.  Which lead to believing the JE was viewing one of their creations as holy.  I was leading towards something I believe I read here, along the lines of the Gods not being able to see the Inchoroi or the Consult...  Or was it the No God.  Or neither and another mistake.  I'm on info. overload at the moment and no doubt have not processed everything I've read over the last few days.

And about the Aprons not being damnable. I'd say that it is possible for the schoolman himself to be damned by the sorcery he used to create the Chorae, while the Chorae itself is not. Did that make sense? Maybe some god entity likes irony and damns his followers but not items they craft.

Yes, it makes sense.

11
General Earwa / Re: Chorae and the Judging Eye
« on: June 24, 2013, 01:59:35 am »


One more.  So chorae were were created for the Inchoroi, and that makes all the difference?

I'm confused now :P. I thought you were asking about the chorae. I'm here now if you want to use that forum instant message. Go to the forum homepage and click the (+) on the Quorum section near the top.

I'd rather my errors\queries be on the forum record.

I should have been more clear.  My org. post was about how the JE sees the chorae...

Judging by what I have just learned, Aporetic sorcery is not viewed as not damnable by the Gods\JE.   Even though it is "just a forbidden branch of sorcery..."  I'm assuming this is because it's basis is negating sorcery.

12
General Earwa / Re: Chorae and the Judging Eye
« on: June 24, 2013, 01:43:22 am »
All the difference for what?

Its just a forbidden branch of sorcery. So was the Wathi doll that Akka has/had, or the Diamos that dear Iyokos wields/wielded.

I was thinking in terms of the JE.

13
General Earwa / Re: Chorae and the Judging Eye
« on: June 24, 2013, 01:33:28 am »
Chorae where made by Aporetic schoolman. It was a Nonman school bent on the negation of sorcery. The Megecca where Aporetic schoolman and they helped create the Chorae for the Inchoroi.

more info here:
http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=769.0

OK.  Always the missed details...

One more.  So chorae were were created for the Inchoroi, and that makes all the difference?

14
General Earwa / Chorae and the Judging Eye
« on: June 24, 2013, 01:12:49 am »
Almost started a new thread, but perhaps this one will suffice.

Chorae were created by the Inchoroi, yet Mimara sees the chorae she found in Cil-Aujas as something holy.  From The WLW prologue: "The Judging Eye opens, and the thing is miraculously transformed.  Suddenly she sees it for what it truly is: a white burning tear of god."

How can an artifact created by Inchoroi be holy (for lack of a better term ATM)?  Is the JE fallible or unable to truly define all things Inchoroi?  Or does the JE follow\make real, what the consensus or Earwa believe?  Creating your own reality, as it were.  Help!

Have I missed a discussion on this?

15
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Questions and hopefully answers
« on: June 22, 2013, 10:28:20 pm »
@Madness & Wilshire

I was able to find everything from from Madness' direction.

To comment on NEED...

Irrationally, I am attempting to consume as much of Bakker's thought process\ideas along with all available reader hypotheses (Nerdanel haha), before rereading WLW.  At this point, the process feels like avoidance, but having come so far, I wish to be as armed as possible before diving into the book again.

Hence, reading this forum as completely as possible.

EDIT:  I feel as if I am missing a semicolon somewhere above.  My poor 9th grade English teacher.

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