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Messages - Dunkelheit

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Serwa and Kelmomas
« on: August 07, 2017, 12:33:27 pm »
And if we attribute the novel Sayothi Skin-Spy at the beginning of TJE to the Mutilated learning the Tekne [...]

I don't think this makes any sense. It seemed that the consult was testing their abilities to detect the skin-spies with this alternate skin-spy. If the Dunyains were in control of the consult they would immediately know that they would be able to see right through it. If anything this is a sign that the Dunyains were not in control of the Consult at the time.
Or it could just be a weird anomaly like the skin-spy with a soul.

Yeah I don't get why that's hard. Kelmomas escapes the day before, is found by skin spy. Does it take more than 18 hours to walk from the ordeal camp to the golden room? Why wouldn't he be there?

Compared to everything else going on, this is a pretty mundane issue of walking from point a to point b.

I assume those that think otherwise have reasoning behind it that I just don't see. Can someone please do me the honor of pointing out the obvious?

*Puts on Dunyain hat*
They are using their subjective level of surprise as an objective measure of improbability.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Thoughs post-AMA slog
« on: August 03, 2017, 08:14:06 am »
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.

In my opinion much of what Kellhus says makes little sense coming from Ajokli. I think the possession is not and either-or thing, more like a sliding scale. As time goes on he slides from Kellhus to Ajokli, until he is full on Ajokli with his head on fire.

Didn't all of the Adunyani from Atrithau accompany him south as meatshields and end up dead?

Yes, but that's just the ones who joined him. Their friends and family must have heard about him too, and if he preached in public there must have been more people who heard some of what he had to say, but not enough to go with him to the south.

Many things are solvable with nearly a million dispensable troops, not to mention disposable sorcerers though.

Yes, and both Kellhus and Moe sr. was pretty flippant about revealing who they were at the beginning. Kellhus actually had a small following somewhere north prior to meeting Cnair. Pretty sure the Consult found those people and convinced them to share what they know.

Probably off topic, but there was a forum where Bakker almost casually mentions that the Tusk was a Consult contrivance, and it has steered men since their passage from Eanna(misspelled?), basically demanding the death of the Nonmen, and sorcerers, but acknowledging the existence and even the names of the Gods. Why would it do that?

I think it's interesting that like the Dunyain the Consult controls with the truth (that Nonmen and sorcerers are damned). As for why it acknowledges the gods? Well, the gods are real and as we have seen they don't take to kindly to fals prophets (though some disagree with that interpretation). If they had gone "Kill all the Nonmen and sorcerers, and by the way the gods are bullshit too", first of all they probably would not have been believed. Secondly, the gods would probably have intervened and the Tusk wouldn't have remained as a holy text for this long. It's better to play on the believes that already exist and make them work for you.

Author Q&A / Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
« on: August 02, 2017, 10:58:37 am »
Would The Judging Eye be able to see Kelmomas? If he is invisible to the gods, and the Judging Eye is (I think?) a manifestation of the gods or one god or the god of gods, then would he be invisible to it?
The is a scene in TUC where it does. It sees the whirlwind.

Aurax was presumably tortured by the Dunyain into obeisance. I don't know how you torture an Inchoroi without just getting them off but hey Dunyain are basically magic.

Well, we have seen that you can force someone to act whatever way you please with magic, and that creates patters in your brain that some keep following even when you are no longer under the spell. And Dunyain can do magic at much higher levels than regular sorcerers. They also like to stick needles in peoples brains and control them that way. I'm guessing some combination of this.

As I see it, unifying the darkness that comes before with the Absolute stands severely at odds with Dunyain philosophy.

I do too, but I don't think Dunyain philosophy is completely compatible with the Earwa as we know it. So some things needs to get prioritized over others. Kellhus seems to fokus on awareness and mastery, trying to make himself more like (or greater than) the gods. The the Mutilated focus more on the self-moving part, and dedicates themselves to making the self-moving soul (and self-moving universe?) even if this thing has no awareness whatsoever and makes them into servants rather than masters.

That's how I understand it. In the Q&A thread Bakker says that Kellhus goes for pure subjectivity, sapiens without cognition. While the Mutilated goes for pure objectivity, cognition without sapiens.

If the Gods and the Outside can't see the No-God, what do they think humanity is doing? I mean, do they think that Humanity is just doing something crazy? Do they think Kellhus has created the Great Ordeal for no reason other than a whim?

I mean surely, if the gods have a modicum of intelligence and awareness they know that something is going on.... Right?
No, they don't have any intelligence (doesn't the Mutilated straight up tell us so at one point?). And why would they? With the exception of the No-God and things related to it, they can see all that has happened and all that will happen. I would say they function like the White Luck, there is no skill in what they do, no choice. They simply do what they have already done.

Also, one of the larger themes in the book is that people having trouble seeing their own ignorance. People in general can't accept that Kellhus is a "thought-dancer", Kellhus himself can't accept the Kelmomas saw Sorweels motivations better than him, even the gods can't accept that what they see is not all that is.

Author Q&A / Re: Maithanet
« on: August 02, 2017, 08:31:15 am »
Why would he? if Team Moe sr. needed more pseudo-Dunyain, Moe would father them himself. And he is the pope shriah.
Kellhus could have thought him the metagnosis and have him make quarter Dunyains, but my guess is that he has to play the more conservative part and control all the people who take umbrage with Kellhus breaking all the rules. If he started acting like Kellhus it would probably be much greater chance of rebellion and the whole empire collapsing.

Author Q&A / Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
« on: August 01, 2017, 07:43:07 pm »
This is straightforward in the text.  Earwa is a world where everything has already happened, forward and backward in time.  So the fact that the Gods can't see the Ark or the Consult implies that they succeed at some point in the future.  It's the same reason why the Gods can't see Kelmomas.

Except the way the gods intercede to alter the flow of history (and fail) implies that is only true in the Outside. Same with the way that prophecy effects the past. It's a real brain-bender and is not that straightforward to many of us.

I agree with Jurble. Everything has already happened forward and back in time, including the actions of the gods. Yatwer makes the first White Luck thinking it has 100% chance of succeeding, once it fails she and the future she sees changes so she pick Sorweel to finish the job. But she has already picked out Sorweel before the first one fails! So even if she couldn't foresee the future where the first White Luck fails, it was still doomed to fail, otherwise the updated version of Yatwer (the one that knows the White Luck failed) wouldn't have picked Sorweel. So it seems like there is one future bound to happen, even if the gods can't see it.

See? Super straight forward. (jk)

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
« on: August 01, 2017, 09:22:20 am »
Woah, that's an awesome theory, never even crossed my mind. But iirc, Kellhus killed one of the mutilated. Obviously we know very little about soul trapping, but wouldn't destroying one of the bodies cause a major problem, if not outright kill the soul inhabiting it? I really have nothing to base that on, but I don't see any reason to have 5 host boddies unless all are necessary. But I love that theory, though it seems very unlikely, I hope its true

If you want to go real convoluted with it, you can say Shae inhabited the Dunyain Ajokli destroyed, so that Ajokli actually freed the Dunyain and that's why they look at each other assessing whether they others have been freed as well.

I don't buy it though. When one Dunyain starts explaining Ajoklis motivation, who is he talking to? Clearly the other Dunyains, not Kellhus. So does Shae just like talking to himself? I think them being actual Dunyain fits better.

As for their speech pattern, did anyone expect the Dunyains to talk over each other?

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas
« on: July 31, 2017, 10:20:58 pm »
Jurbel makes his case a little better in another thread.

Here's a crackpot question:

Are the Mutilated Shauriatus?  They all talk one-by-one and Shae's original Wretches apparently only function because they're 'shorn of passion' and what better way to describe Dunyain?  So, Shauriatus alone resisted and Shauriatus won.  The scene is a pantomime on Shae's part, flattering Kellhus' Dunyain vanity (of course the Dunyain took over the Consult).

Its a cool theory, but I don't buy it.

Also, I actually thought the Dunsolt reveal was awesome, but I never invested much energy in thinking about Shae either so.

Now of course i could be wrong and Kellhus is blind to her (as he says) and motherly love might be beyond his knowledge, and i'm inventing this narrative.

I don't think he claims to be blind to her, just to his own motivation when it comes to her. But I think he couldn't have predicted she would act the way she did. When he "armed" her against Inrilatas, he also armed her against himself. Like Moe sr. made Cnair hard to predict and control, Kellhus himself made her hard to predict and control. I don't think it's so much motherly love as being able to see through Dunyain manipulation making her actions unpredictable. But she has conflicting emotions about her kids probably also complicates things.

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