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Messages - Khaine

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I'll reiterate for posterity that I don't think Kellhus and Ajokli made any deals.

Interesting objection.

So when Kellhus speaks of pacts with the Pit, is that simply Ajokli speaking?

So does this mean that Kellhus was under the impression he had found a way to save the world, but Ajokli takes over and then the salting incident takes place due to Kelmonas and his plan is never put into action.

After all Kellhus himself says that his TTT fails him. I should find the reference, because at the time when I read it, I thought it was important in itself, but I forgot to highlight it in my book.


"The living shall not haunt the dead" is a fantastic line. I've often thought on what it means. I always thought it meant that the living' s sense of right and wrong - their notion of damnation - was what held the dammed in place... But then Bakker has shat on the idea of subjective truth leading to objective truth, so I don't see how the living *can* haunt the dead.

It's still a great line.

Thank you for this comment, I wasn't aware of this.

Which destroys my theory.


In that case I entirely agree with you, what does this line mean? It has been repeated too many time, not to mean anything.

Maybe Kellhus was deluded in thinking he could fix the problem of damnation without going down the path of shutting the world. The same way he was deluded in thinking he was a prophet or divine. After all, himself admits he went a bit crazy.

God damn it, no answers, only questions within questions, wrapped in enigmas, bundled up with riddles.


So I have been re-reading passages from the GO and the UC.

And I am trying to put everything together.

Kellhus goes mad during this circumfixion which breaks his spirit and allows the agents from the Outside into his mind.

Initially he thinks it is the No-God who speaks to him, for whatever reason. Maybe the influence of Achamian, the discovery of the Consult and so on.

Then he says that he learns to ignore the voices in his head.

"He suffered visions, certainly, but he had long ceased to trust them".

GO, p. 121, Chapter Aorsi (hard pack version)

We know that during the Unification Wars, Kellhus studies Daimos and he walks in the Outside and he comes back. Presumably during this time, he makes the deal with Ajokli.

But maybe Ajokli being the trickster god, cheats Kellhus into thinking that he is the God of Gods.

My impression is that when Kellhus reveals to Proyas that the God of Gods is the antithesis of love and that he cares not, and says that the damnation of mankind is the granary of the gods, Kellhus has in mind Ajokli, but he does not know it.

I mean this is the trickster god, surely he could trick Kellhus.

Kellhus labours under the impression that he has some deal with Ajokli-who-pretends-to -be the god of gods and proceeds with his Great Ordeal. Possibly he is under the impression that if he vanquishes the Consult and its allies, the god of gods will somehow reward him.

This line, the living should not haunt the dead is inserted a few times.

Kellhus says to the Dunyain allies of the Consult that he is an inverted prophet. This echoes his conversation with Proyas, where he says a prophet brings word of mortals to the gods.

"Then what is their purpose?"
"Is it not plain? To deliver word of Men to the Gods".
GO, p. 122, chapter Aorsi.

"I bore word of the temporal to the divine"
UC, chapter the Golden Room, p.415

Right until that point Kellhus is in control.

But then Ajoklis takes over, he is the trickster god and more importantly he reveals to the Dunyain that basically the Ark is the deepest topos on Earwa which allows him to seep through and take over Kellhus.

"Because in all the World, no place has witnessed more terror, more obscenity, brutality, or sublime trauma. Your Golden Room is scarcely more than a bubble floating upon the Transcendent Pit. Hell, my brothers. Hell pollutes its every shadow, smokes from its every surface, creeps through its every brace..."

UC, The Golden Room, p. 421 ( some italics were removed but you get the gist).

It is quite conceivable that Kellhus had a different plan altogether from Ajokli and in the end Ajokli is the one who gets undone.

Kellhus was perhaps under the impression that he would somehow strike a bargain with the gods. I will terminate the effort to shut the world, because if the Consult is successful the gods will lose, but in return the living will not be claimed by the gods or something.

And this is where my thought fails me but without having a clearer picture of the metaphysics of damnation is hard to tell what a possible bargain between Kellhus and Ajokli would look like. But we should not exclude the possibility that Ajokli manipulated Kellhus.




- I don't think so because on a similar note Bakker confirmed at ZDC that Kellhus levitating without the Mark in TUC was sorcery and I don't know why he'd admit that and not the haloes.

Which part are you referring to?

I thought that was a hologram of Kellhus prepared by the Consult to distract the Ordeal while they were dealing with Kellhus (ie trying to convert him to their cause).

Or am I talking another incident?

Also how can sorcery leave no mark? Unless of course Kellhus also unlocked the secrets of Psukhe?

The more questions we ask, the more question we get!

PS: Is Bakker a fan of Lynch and Twin Peaks by any chance? Because his writing has certain Lynchian traits, if I can use the term.


On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.


So simple question but I presume the answer is not. Where do these halos come from?

Is it some kind of magic? Illusion magic to give him extra charisma?
En mass hallucination by the masses?
Kellhus levelled up to Super Saiyan and his golden aura manifests in the physical universe?


Does it really it matter in the greater scheme?

But the idea that Kellhus behaved like a prophet - god - saint and he got the markings to prove it (like in the Wheel of Time when Rand receives his dragon tatoos if my memory serves me) is too seductive to simply let it go.

So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?

I can live with the idea that Kellhus did not know from the start that Ajokli was messing with his head and that maybe he thought he was communicating with the No-God.

Also going off a tangent, at some point Kellhus says that his thousand-fold thought fails him and all he perceives is darkness. Is it because of the effect of Ajokli taking him over and / or because a divine being is beyond the mundane the circuit of causation?

The blind spot to his immense mental faculty being a divine agent which is not subject to the rule that what comes before determines what comes after.

That would fit with the theme raised by other posters that this is a story about limits, blind spots and great powers being undone by things which they couldn't perceive, that is the unknown unknowns.

 :D (smiley is for my allusion to Donald Rumsfield while discussing Kellhus and Ajokli )


Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?

My understanding is that since Ajoklis the trickster god has made a pact with Kellhus, he is giving him the ability to manifest such divine marks that will aid Kellhus in his quest, of whatever it is.

I still don't understand clearly what Ajoklis was hoping to achieve. I should re-read the relevant passage or the whole book for that matter.  :P

If my theory holds true it inverts the traditional prophet - hero trope, as the perceived divinity of Kellhus is down to his pact with the devil (or the most devilish divine power of Earwa).

So Kellhus is a Faust in a way and by selling his soul he gets the trappings of a divine prophet.

Now I read somewhere in this thread that Bakker confirmed that Kellhus since his crucifixion (circumfixion ok) has been in communion with Ajoklis. If this holds true, then for me a lot of things make sense, because it is after this incident that he starts having halos and speaking to the god (which initially thought was the No-God).

Which brings us back to the confrontation with Moenghus when Kellhus on purpose lies to his father telling him, that the No-God speaks to him. Maybe Kellhus knew that his father as a Dunyain would have thrown his lot with the Inchoroi and the Consult, that's why he lies to him and of course anticipates the Dosult, hence the need for a divine (infernal really) boost.

If only he could avoid being salted...

Also the trickster god in the end is unmade by the No-God, which sounds appropriate / fitting.

Wow long stream of consciousness post.

Feel feel to jump in!

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Minor Aurax Question
« on: August 22, 2017, 05:36:52 am »
It is Inchoroin (?) for Kellhus is clearly OP and we are all doomed, a god of the Tusk walks with him...

The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: August 21, 2017, 06:20:21 am »
It is like wine, as it matures it gets better.

I was also frustrated by the end, initially.

BUT as days go by and I reflect on the different themes, story arcs and parallelisms between PON and Aspect-Emperor, the more I like it.

I mean Kellhus gets salted. Throughout the entire PON I wanted Kellhus to get defeated, because I was annoyed at how good he was at everything.

Then during the Aspect-Emperor series, slowly but surely as the full depravity of the Consult became clear, I started to support Kellhus, even up to the point where he became an Avatar of Satan (pretty much!), despite having no idea what was his plan. Just the one liner, when he gazed into the Inverse Fire produced so much awesomeness: Where you fall as fodder, I descend as hunger -- which put into full perspective the dialogues in the Great Ordeal about fodder and harvest, I presume it was Kellhus debating / discussing / making a pact with Ajoklis. Awesome stuff.

And now having changed my mind about Kellhus, he is salted! What a roller coaster of emotions!

Achamian is still alive, and I sincerely hope that he will be instrumental in defeating the No-God, so all is good.

There is design in the density of the series and all is forgiven.

It is a rewarding experience but only once you let go the notion of a clear end.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Inverse fire
« on: August 18, 2017, 09:37:03 am »
A question from a friend of mine which I think is pertinent:

How do you build a machine that ponders eternity inside space-time?

In other words how do we know the Inverse Fire shows what it purports to show?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Zaudunyanicon Q&A
« on: August 18, 2017, 06:28:30 am »
Umberto Eco in the postscript to the Name of the Rose wrote that once a book is written the author shouldn't comment on it so that he / she wouldn't get in the way of interpretations.

I wonder what Bakker thinks about this view, which in a way saves us from this obsession of what the author really meant here or there. Any work of fiction is merely a tool which generates different interpretations.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Loose Ends
« on: August 17, 2017, 09:29:41 am »
Thanks for the link.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Zaudunyanicon Q&A
« on: August 17, 2017, 08:39:21 am »
Are souls conscious after their physical body dies? In other words, are the souls in the Hells actually aware that Ciphrang are torturing them? Or are they effectively p-zombies?

(This question was prompted by Warhammer 40K being brought up in another thread. In 40K, almost everyone is technically 'damned' - after death, their souls are ripped apart and devoured by daemons who feast on the soul's emotional content - but almost no human soul is strong-willed enough to actually retain any sense of self or anything we would call consciousness after death, so in a sense their soul's fate is irrelevant.)

I always thought Kellhus was an early version of the Holy Emprah and he was merely fighting the unification wars.


The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Loose Ends
« on: August 17, 2017, 08:33:34 am »
As an aside, perhaps it is simply that sorcery leaves a Mark only when the sorcerer uses language. I believe Gnostic and Anagogic schools both use dead languages for the Uterals - that's a pretty strong link to a lot of  dead and dawned souls really.

Good observation / theory.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Loose Ends
« on: August 17, 2017, 08:30:51 am »
They do have no mark but 1) we've had a good explanation for why that it works in TTT that doesn't involve the accuracy of their beliefs and 2) we've been told that their have been others who have used the Psukhe before the advent of Fane.  So buying into the Fanim being right because their sorcery works has always been a palace built on air.

I presume you refer to the conversation of Kellhus and Achamian, where the first breaks down the metaphysics of sorcery and stuns Achamian?

I thought that bit, was just Kellhus making things up on the go. How would he know how Psukhe works, without having any knowledge of it and no experience? I understand that his awesome intellectual powers allowed him to see what Gnosis and Anagogic sorcery is, but Psukhe? I would think that is far-fetched even for Kellhus, but there you go.  ;)

As for the second point, I wasn't aware of that. It certainly isn't in the text, but I guess from a Q&A session.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] The Loose Ends
« on: August 17, 2017, 06:39:18 am »
I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

Very interesting nugget. Where did Bakker mention this? Was it some Q&A session? Prior to the GO and Unholy Consult, I used to think that maybe of all the metaphysical systems, the Fanim's creed might be the correct one. Their sorcerers have no mark and we have seen no evidence of damnation in their worldview. So embracing the Solitary God might be a plausible way of salvation. Also to me it felt appropriate that the other gods are merely daemons, hungers in the void (outside) a la Warhammer 40k lore, but beyond that there is one deity which can be even remotely benevolent.

(and an interesting aside for me, since I take interest in the religion and politics of the Middle East, is that it would be yet another inversion, of our western Christian-influenced worldview, since the system that mostly reflects Islam would be the "correct" one, as opposed the system that echoes Christianity - with elements of Hinduism. As it turns out this is merely my own biases being read into the text  :o By the way I am an atheist, even though I was raised Christian (Orthodox), but I have a fascination with Islam from a political and sociological point of view).

So Bakker saying that the Fanim are also wrong (surprise, surprise) destroys this crackpot theory of mine.

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