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Messages - H

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1
The Crabikiad / Re: What's the story!?
« on: December 01, 2017, 12:41:50 pm »
I meant that they're not going to care about the heavens if they know that they're damned anyway. So, they wouldn't mind if the entire system is scrapped. That is, IF they're aware that they won't go to the heavens no matter what they do.

I thought that the Consult was trying to destroy "meaning."

Well, yes they are trying to end "meaning," but I am admittedly using meaning in two different ways which is confusing (even to me).

In another thread, I wrote:

"What the death of meaning gets at is not a death of human consciousness, or of human society (for the most part), it's the death of what we would call "Higher Meaning" in modern parlance.  This presumes that "Lower Meaning" is actually not meaningful, which you can agree or disagree with, but in Eärwa this is presumed to be true.  Let me operationalize what the difference between these are.  Let's take an example:

Aurang rapes and murders thousands and then dies.  "Higher meaning" has Aurang's soul damned.  "Lower meaning" has Aurang remembered as a bad guy (ok, really bad guy).  Without the soul, there is no conveyance of meaning beyond death.  So, if Higher Meaning is gone, so is the accounting for what Aurang did; lower meaning might write what down what he did (for example), but that will only be an account of what he did.

So, when the No-God sunders Eärwa from the Outside, whatever happens loses any eternal quality.  It loses any eternal consequence and so loses any eternal meaning.  Everything is transient and pointless, except in the mundane terrestrial sense of meat begetting more meat.  You were a righteous and pious person?  Doesn't matter, you die and there is nothing.  You were a callous and capricious person?  Doesn't matter you die and there is nothing.

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?"

So, it really isn't "Meaning" that the Consult seeks to destroy, but rather what we might call "Higher Meaning."  Unfortunately, I lack the vocabulary to disentangle the word meaning from itself, which ends up being confusing.  So, the loss of what Sorweel experiences is actually meaningful for both the Consult (it's what they don't want) and the rest of the world (what they do want).

(I actually don't think we disagree on anything, it's just a confusing thing to talk about.)

2
The Crabikiad / Re: What's the story!?
« on: November 30, 2017, 12:14:57 pm »
Quote
His death section with Yatwer calling him to her realm was beautiful and integral to the story, to what we lose when Meaning dies.

It won't mean anything to those who are damned.

I don't quite follow what you mean here, Dora.  The end of the meaning that Sorweel experiences, is actually most "meaningful" for those who are damned.  That's the whole reason the Consult embarked on the path of Apocalypse.

3
General Misc. / Re: What's your favorite kind of pie?
« on: November 27, 2017, 09:59:35 pm »
The smell of pumpkin makes me nearly gag.  Seriously.  It's bad.

4
The Unholy Consult / Re: Unnecessary Capitalisation
« on: November 27, 2017, 09:17:04 pm »
Other weird words stand out - I think there's a thread. But for me, specifically, the word akimbo appears more than once describing the orientation of Kellhus' severed heads, or Kellhus himself. I don't think I've ever encountered that word, and to see it used several times was really jarring.

I am used to seeing that as meaning "with a hand on the hip" so it was odd to me because I didn't know it meant anything else.

5
General Misc. / Re: Back from my unintended hiatus
« on: November 22, 2017, 11:15:53 am »
What was your master thesis about?

It was about non-coeliac gluten sensitivity and coeliac disease in a sample of Portuguese patients. Sorry I didn't mention it in the main post, I mentioned it on the chat yesterday but didn't think anyone (else) would be interested in the details here. :)

Well, our kids have some combination of those two things, so, we might be interested around here,  8)

6
Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

...

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?

H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!

The question though, is that really what the series is?  I mean, it seems most likely.  I think that might be what Bakker meant when he said there were "two ways it could go."  Or maybe I am just pulling things out of my ass...

7
I liked how Sagan dealt with communication in Contact. Otherwise, while there are a number of hypotheses, obviously, it's easy to think that communication/recognition between species would be impossible.

I suppose that would make an interesting thread, in and of itself.

Don't forget, more recently, Arrival and the issue of communication presented there, as it relates to a fundamentally different ways of conceptualizing language and time.

8
The No-God / Re: Your mission, should you choose to accept!
« on: November 21, 2017, 12:45:09 pm »
I would want to see the consequences of the closing off of the Outside resulting in the death of meaning, leading to a loss of consciousness and self-awareness in human beings.

Bolivar, your deadpan is too strong.  However, this is a quick summary of my thoughts on what a "death of meaning" might be.

9
On your first statement, profgrape and others have brought up that it seems the No-God's purpose is less about extermination specifically and more about "reading the code of souls" or whatever. I understand less than others seem to but there might to be something to it.

Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

One, the No-God stops the Cycle of Souls and so, is the Death of Birth (for souled creatures).  Two, the No-God somehow communicates with soulless Tekne creations (or unifies, or possibly supplants their will).  Three, the No-God is a soul cipher, somehow decoding something from each's passing that is key in permanently closing off the Outside permanently.

In reality, one and two are just means to three though.  Three is the whole purpose, once a population 144k is achieved, the code can become active and presumably function three gives way to a "fourth function" that is the actual sealing of the world once the code has been found and the population is at the proper threshold.

What the death of meaning gets at is not a death of human consciousness, or of human society (for the most part), it's the death of what we would call "Higher Meaning" in modern parlance.  This presumes that "Lower Meaning" is actually not meaningful, which you can agree or disagree with, but in Eärwa this is presumed to be true.  Let me operationalize what the difference between these are.  Let's take an example:

Aurang rapes and murders thousands and then dies.  "Higher meaning" has Aurang's soul damned.  "Lower meaning" has Aurang remembered as a bad guy (ok, really bad guy).  Without the soul, there is no conveyance of meaning beyond death.  So, if Higher Meaning is gone, so is the accounting for what Aurang did; lower meaning might write what down what he did (for example), but that will only be an account of what he did.

So, when the No-God sunders Eärwa from the Outside, whatever happens loses any eternal quality.  It loses any eternal consequence and so loses any eternal meaning.  Everything is transient and pointless, except in the mundane terrestrial sense of meat begetting more meat.  You were a righteous and pious person?  Doesn't matter, you die and there is nothing.  You were a callous and capricious person?  Doesn't matter you die and there is nothing.

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning? 

10
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe?
« on: November 16, 2017, 06:32:11 pm »
I believe I have a lot to do and very little time to get it all done.

11
The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: November 10, 2017, 04:07:52 pm »
You guys are right, your points are valid - they just didn't "ruin" the story for me.

Well, I don't mean to imply it ruined the story for me.  But I do think it could have been better in some places.  However there were legitimately places where it is Bakker's best writing, hands down.

12
Love would be a risk to this agenda - does he love Esmi or not? His stammering about Kel's arrival in GR and his apparent genuine love for Esmi suggests more is amiss.

Well, then we are back to where MSJ and I always disagree.  Is the "love" for Esme what drives him, or is it just a factor among all of them?  Or is it even just a distraction?

13
To my knowledge, nowhere in the text is it hinted that Kellhus has a plan to change this state of affairs. Indeed, toward the end, he claims that he sees himself descending "as a Hunger." I know not whether this outcome was averted by his destruction at the end of the story. But even if it wasn't, there is no sign that he is going to use his status as a hunger to create better outcomes for all the poor souls who spring off the mortal coil into the Outside. I assign some probability to the idea that he has a plan for that, but not a high one.

Well, I think part of it also is that Kellhus doesn't seem to ever have really had a "master plan" in the sense that he was going to "fix" everything.  Rather, he seems to be trying to gain control over the whole system.  To what end though?  That's something of the "greater mystery" but we could presume that once he ended the Consult, the battle with the Hundred could begin.  To what end?

Well, the same end he pursued the whole time in Eärwa, the accumulation and consolidation of power.  Why not conquer Hell and, so, choke out the Hundred?  Why not become the master of the gods?

14
The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: November 10, 2017, 12:37:49 pm »
Not that bad!

I also got married in mid-October and was honeymooning for a bit after that, so haven't been able to participate in as much of the followup discussions.

Glad to hear it, on both accounts!

You might be onto something.

My frustration is a result of that Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast, where he said he's basically had this image of the No-God rising and has been trying to get to that point for the last thirty years. So I feel like he wanted to tell this really dark, epic story that would culminate in this ultra bad ass scene. And then he realized he should probably write a prequel series that took place twenty years earlier to explain how those characters got there.

So basically, in the process of his original vision, he inadvertently wrote one of the greatest fantasy trilogies of all time. I was expecting more for that story, instead of something just building up to a really badass scene. I feel like the curtain finally got pulled back and behind it was a giant mirror of everything we had already seen. Everything about the mythos, the Nonmen, the Inchoroi, the First Apocalypse, the Dunyain, has pretty much been explained since the Thousandfold Thought. There's no hidden agenda behind the Consult's disappearance 300 years ago, the Scholastic Wars, Fanimry, or everything that went down with Moenghus and Maithanet. The story isn't what I thought it would be, which is more my fault than anything, but I do feel the Prince of Nothing portended more than what we got from the Aspect Emperor.

Well, for me, I don't know that it's bad the have an end in mind when working toward the series.  I mean, I do agree that PoN is the "better" series, despite TAE having better quality parts throughout.  I think it has to do with striking (to me) the better balance between mystery and narrative.  I think TAE sometimes doubles down on the former and the expense of the latter.

15
General Earwa / Re: Pronunciation
« on: November 09, 2017, 09:02:51 pm »
Still think Sil-cool-ickus is the best flowing option.

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