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Messages - H

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RPG Discussion / Re: Sufficiently Advanced Diceless RPG
« on: January 17, 2019, 12:48:24 pm »
Sci-fi most likely, unless people really want to play the rules that are still in development for the magic stuff.

That said don't want to promise too much quite yet, gotta take some time to really make sure I understand the rules and how a game would go.

Not in a hurry, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.  I might just pick up the book myself to read it over.

Sounds like a neat setting to do a story somewhat akin to Lem's Solaris.  The book of course, not any of the poor adaptation movies.

Philosophy & Science / Re: The Benefits of Optimism Are Real
« on: January 16, 2019, 12:55:16 pm »
I am probably in the running for "least optimistic human being alive" in reality.  I'm also not at all very mindful, generally, not am I what I could typify as particularly confident.

Thing is, many events are somewhat ambiguous, in the sense of how you should necessarily react to them emotionally.  If we follow the line of reasoning though, that meaning if a function of focus, then we can see how focusing on the "negative" will necessarily lead you to a negative interpretation of more events.

Depressive realism is an actual thing.  Blissful ignorance is too.  The key is finding the right sort of balance between the two.

Philosophy & Science / Re: The Benefits of Optimism Are Real
« on: January 15, 2019, 09:12:09 pm »
Quote from:  H
Well, there is a very good reason we never recommended it to you...

Really? What? In genuinely at a loss as to why you guys wouldn't want me participating in your "mindfulness" endeavors....


The initiation rituals aren't for everyone, you know?

Not to mention, it's all a zero-sum game.  If we let everyone else get more mindful and confident, then we necessarily won't be as much.

Philosophy & Science / Re: The Benefits of Optimism Are Real
« on: January 15, 2019, 03:14:48 pm »
I'll be the first to admit, if it benefited my three, illustrious, scholarly friends, I'll be the first to pick it up. Wilshire has never recommended it to me on any of the threads, though.

Well, there is a very good reason we never recommended it to you...

Philosophy & Science / Re: The Benefits of Optimism Are Real
« on: January 15, 2019, 12:40:18 pm »
I bet y'all go to mindfulness classes and read self-help books about being positive and confident like Wilshire, H and Madness.

Oh no, he's on to us...

Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello!
« on: January 15, 2019, 12:35:29 pm »
After installing the app you would need a link for the server, which I've sent you via PM (I hope H wouldn't mind). And you're absolutely correct, "Discord server" is basically a term for group chat. Discord servers do have a bit more options than old school group chats (like our Quorum here), but at the end of the day they're still group chats.

Oh, and it would be best to not link the server publicly, since Discord spam is a thing.

Yeah, not a problem, I just felt the same way, so if anyone needs an invite to the server, let me know.

Yeah I think psychology is a field that could benefit from the acceptance of what the philosopher Putnam calls "pragmatic pluralism"...there may simply not be laws (or at least laws we can discover) for human behavior. Or the laws are variant across individuals coming from different experiences.

I'd like to think that was something that Jung was actually attempting to do, via his sort of analytical "phenomenological" approach.  Or at least in theory.  It's more about understanding the tenancies we have.  This tends to lead to that, and so on.  Less about "laws" because each individual as a sort of "perpetual feedback machine" is necessarily going to be different.  That doesn't mean that we can't learn things generally, but keep in mind that the general signifies little, exactly, to the individual.

I am going to sit and think about what everyone has written.  In the final chapters when Kellhus is conversing with the Disfigured (?) there were several equivalencies made that are the basis of my confusion.  I'll try to tease them out further.

Well, just throw in the quotes here, there are plenty of people here that can give you ideas on what it might be talking about.

The name Koringhus has appeared ... does anyone have a reference as to where in the texts his name has appeared.

You might want to reread Chapter 14 of The Great Ordeal.  While Koringhus appears and disappears in a short time in the narrative, I think his role is pretty important to the meta-physics.

In the  thread I linked above, you can see what one could do in extrapolating out what Koringhus "uncovers" in that chapter.

RPG Discussion / Re: Sufficiently Advanced Diceless RPG
« on: January 14, 2019, 03:47:23 pm »
I like your thinking. The best RPG campaigns are the slowest - take it in, immersion, not a race to the finish line. I'm a shit writer, but I like the idea maybe we do a Discord session at the end of each chapter and discuss what happened, prep for next chapter and would be happy to help edit anything you or anyone wants to write up.

Well, we can and should, of course, collaborate on the actual writing part in the end.  I am a horrendous writer, for the most part, but I feel I have reasonable "revision" capabilities.  That is to say, if I have a bunch of material, I feel I can do a half decent job getting onto a "page" in a readable fashion.

I actually have a tSA  Discord made, a while back, I figured I'd make one in case we ever needed it...

RPG Discussion / Re: Sufficiently Advanced Diceless RPG
« on: January 14, 2019, 03:38:55 pm »

Heh we have opposite problems - maybe once I feel like I've grokked the rules I may try to GM a play-by-post game of this...

And even more Interesting ...  :)

Well, I don't have time for anything real-time, but now you have my attention.  We are talking about the sci-fi version here?

What if, bear with me, we were to do this on like a chapter by chapter sort of basis, which would obviously take a while to play out, given the nature of posting schedules and so on, but then, at the end of the chapter, take all of what happened and all the dialogue, and write it as an sort of narrative fiction?

It seems you might be asking two things, so I'll split them up

how Tekne is the equivalent of the Logos.
I think first of all that this isn't the case. More like, the Logos, or at least the way the Dunyain pursue and use it, is more easily understood as a system for obtaining knowledge, with its end goal being the acquisition of all knowledge and therefore being able to come before events. A state known as The Absolute.

In this sense, it is very much not the Tekne. The Tekne, afaik, is just a fun way of spelling and then shortening a word to make it sound like Fantasy/Sci-fi jargon. Technology shortens to Tech. Tech to Tek. Tek to Tekne. A play on words that basically just means that a bunch of advanced aliens have technology.

Specifically on Earwa its used to describe, mostly, their ability to manipulate flesh - gene-splicing mostly. Think today's China and their CRSPR splicing genes into babies, fast forwarded a billion years into the future.

You might say that the Tekne arises from (or is a product of) the Logos. In real life terms, technology arises from knowledge. But this doesn't make them equivalent.

Why are the Inchoroi damned? Now that's a totally different question.

You raise some good points here, so, I'd like to clarify my above post, if possible.

That is, the Tekne and the Logos are not "the same" in so far as they are both "raised" out of the same idea, that of what we might call "empiricism" or probably broader, "logical knowledge."  In fact, they are both really "Mechanical philosophies" so to speak, that is to say, they treat the world as if it were a machine.  So, there is always a cause, always an effect, and causes generate effects.  You can get result X if you initiate cause Y.  For the Logos, it's about this logical progression.  For the Tekne, its roughly the same, build X to do Y.

The problem is, something like Damnation isn't a machine, because it speaks to something that isn't mechanical.  It's transcendent, in the sense of not being a physical thing.  It's an idea, that is, an ideal.  So, you can make all the machines you want, you can be as logical as you want, but the nature of the universe, meta-physically, doesn't care.  There are rules.  "Arbitrary" rules.

I struggle with why attaining the Absolute leads to damnation ...

Yes, why. I think as H said, it has something to do with the Gods. They seem a prickly bunch, power hungry, viciously defending and consolidating power, and putting down anything that seeks to disrupt the status quo. So maybe the Aboslute is something that, no matter how obliquely, approximate being a God, and the journey to it might itself make one a God should it ever be achieved. This would make the other Gods unhappy, thus damnation.

That said, does attaining the absolute lead to damnation? As far as we really know (or think we know via Mimara) the Dunyain themselves are all damned collectively, likely due to their complicity in creating the Whale Mothers, and more generally how they live their lives in Ishual. I imagine Yatwer is not too happy about the whole situation, and it could be that reason and nothing else that leads to the Dunyain damnation.

Or something else entirely. ;) .

Well, here's the thing, if you could actually achieve the Absolute, that is, knowledge of everything, you probably wouldn't be Damned.  That is, because if you actually had infinite knowledge, you'd actually be the Infinite God-of-gods, and so it would be irrelevant.  The issue is, you can't get to Infinity by addition, in actual practice.  So, you can "assemble" the Infinite God piece by piece.  You can't count to Infinity by ones, or by any other number either, within the timespan of the universe.

You can't achieve the Absolute in actual practice by addition.  The only way to "get there" is likely through Koringhus' method, by subtraction, by taking the perspective of "Zero differentiation" rather than "no differentiation through acquisition of all perspectives."

I mean there is always value in trying to improve mental states. I think in its humanitarian ideal psychology is good stuff, and has saved lives and ideally can save even more.

Similarly math gives us incredible predictive power but when people think everything about reality is amenable to mathematical description we end up with (IMO) deeply wrongheaded ideas like causation is either deterministic/random b/c math only has non-random and random descriptions through functions, prob-stats, etc.

I was thinking about this the other night, because I was out playing a game and the topic of "useless" psychology degrees came up.  That is, I have one and so did another guy.  I say "useless" because we simply never actually did anything in our actual field with them.

I mentioned that my aim was always at more Analytical Psychology than something "experimental," something more clinical and therefor more akin to Philosophy than a hard science.  But it had me thinking, later, and asking, "why?"  What is the use of such a thing.

And that makes me think, that a "less scientific" approach is perhaps something sorely missing from "Western culture" now-a-days.  That is, what we "need" is specifically less "objective truth" and more "subjective perspective."  That seems strange to me, as someone who has a general empirical world-view.  But I'm also very much a phenomenologist and maybe there is something in how to square those two things.

It makes me think back to the end of my time in college, where I was just wrapping up random credits I needed.  I fell in to some philosophy classes, mostly because they were easy to me.  But one professor told us something to the effect of that "Western philosophy" when encountering what they found in places like Africa, regarded them as distinctly "primitive" because they didn't rely in logic, for the most part, they were "lived philosophy" that is, something more like "wisdom" not on what was empirically, or even logically, "true" but rather, how do you live a life that is worth living?

I don't know if that is actually true, or if that is actually what that professor actually told us, but that's how I recall it.  Maybe her actual words were different and that's just how I understood it.  So, what does that have to do with psychology?  Well, maybe that is what something like analytical psychology should be?  More a lived philosophy than a hard science?

Hello all,

I am struggling greatly with making the mental abstractions to process the idea of how Tekne is the equivalent of the Logos.

I struggle with why attaining the Absolute leads to damnation ... my initial thought is that reaching the Absolute is essential creating a number divided by 0, an irrational, an impossibility. The Subject and the Object coalescing into one creates the irrational.

Please share your thoughts and understandings ... I have had my brain working on this for a few days but im left feeling thrilled by my inability to resolve this. It's fun to ponder.

Well, to sort of "summarize" what I've posted elsewhere here, the issue with the Absolute vis-a-vis Damnation is that it seems to be impossible to achieve the Absolute in actual practice.  That is, the attempt to "know everything" is not possible.  In fact, it isn't even really possible to know almost everything.  And even if it was, you'd still be Damned in Bakker-verse, because you are still placing yourself at "odds" with the infinite God-of-gods.  That is, by attempting to achieve Absolute knowledge, that is infinite knowledge, you place yourself at odd with actually fully integrating with the actual infinite nature of the universe.  In a manner of thinking, you could equate such a pursuit to the "supplanting" of the infinite God-of-gods.  This is likely a key to what Koringhus proposes a system of achiving "the Absolute" via a path of loss.  So, you subvert and disolve yourself, litterally The Self, and take your place as one part (an infinite "part") of the Infinite God-of-gods.

I realize it's a bit of a tome, but I've written at length about this here:

(If that thread makes any sense, I don't really know.)

Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello!
« on: January 14, 2019, 02:43:13 pm »
I have many things to discuss with you all about what I consider to be the greatest epic fantasy series written.

Welcome!  Looking forward to your perspective.

I agree with this, I just think we've tried to take the "degenerate" cases of psychology experiments and generalize them to life beyond the lab.

In fact it seems "folk psychology" has an incredible degree of success in the real world, and it was used to this effect even as psychology wasted its time with the delusion of behaviorism.

That said, I think therapy has great value, but psychology seems to have extended itself beyond application into speculation.

Well, some accepts might be generalizable, some might not, it's hard to say.  But, while I do have a psychology degree, I was always far more interested in analytical sorts, rather than anything else, which really isn't far from philosophy in reality.

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