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The Great Ordeal / [TGO spoilers] Reading TTT, this passage stood out
« on: September 17, 2016, 06:05:05 am »
As I finished my first re-read of TTT yesterday, I came upon this passage

(From "The Thousandfold Thought", just before Kellhus stabs Moenghus:)

Kellhus: “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

It seems like Kellhus is inching closer and closer to what claimed his father would do. He now appears to war against damnation, his tactics taking him closer and closer to the Consult. (metaphorically *and* geographically) Some irony, eh?  :)

Some thoughts after finishing TGO yesterday...

Mimara's "judging eye" visions bother me. Are they really truly 100% objective? I think not.

Her vision is a rare gift from the gods, yes? But we already know the the Gods do not see all. And there also seems to be some sort of feedback loop from faith of believers across time to the gods. Yatwer is strong because of the number of believers/followers. So... The judging eye sees things certain actions as "damned" because the majority of souls view those actions as "damned"? But does that really mean that this is true!?!

This also brings me back to the idea of sorcery "staining" someone. Yes, sorcery is different that natural things. The "few" - and well conditioned Dunyain - can see the difference between natural and sorcerous things. But why does using sorcery damn you? Isn't that an idea that the Inchoroi snuck into the Tusk? To create this division between normals and sorcerers? Didn't priest-sorcerors lead humans before they entered Earwa, so why would using it cause you to be damned in the first place?

So when Mimara declares Cnaiur the most damned soul she as ever seen - this just seems... strange. Yes, he is a bad man. He has done many evil things. But the judging eye shows him that harshly? Really?

So in conclusion, all these thoughts somehow makes me think that the Judging Eye is not as objectively true, that it only shows her the limited POV of the god(s), with a fair sprinkling of her own prejudices. Thoughts?

A thought occurred to me while reading the section in the books where the Ordeal campaign is visited by Nonmen in a flying chariot.

This chariot - if I recall right - does not seem to show any sign of sorcery. So my thought - as a fan of the Sci-Fi elements of the story and searching for what might be Tekne - wondered if this vehicle actually does not fly by sorcery, instead using some sort of technology. Nonmen civilization appears to have been pretty advanced, although there is no direct evidence of 'technology' per se. But I'm wondering if Nonmen technology is actually more advanced that we might think - perhaps learned from the Inchoroi, or gifted from the Consult.

Of course, at some point you get down to the Arthur C. Clarke argument - any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - and I wonder if it will be revealed in the end that some of what we think is sorcery without the mark might actually be some form of technology.

Working against this off-the-wall theory is that the POV in the chariot scene is Sorweel, I think, so he would not be a good judge of its sorcery-ness. But the description in the book does make it seem different.

New forum member here, who just finished the currently published 5 books, and about to start a re-read in preparation for TGO.
(If this is in the wrong sub-forum, feel free to move it, mods!)

After my first read, here are my favorite POVs:
 - Achamian (the true main protagonist of the series - if there is one)
 - Sorweel (the hidden white luck warrior? - my own pet theory that I may post about later, if TGO has't disproved or proved it by that time)  :)
 - Kellhus (for he is the kwisatz haderach!)  ;)
 - Mimara

My least favorite POVs:
 - Kelmomas (aaargh, so... frustrating... to read through, my number one most hated character)
 ... (a big gap)...
 - Esmenet (especially in the Aspect Emperor books)
 - Ikurei Conphas (not a fan)
 - Serwe (reasons are obvious)

Any agreement or disagreements?


I just picked up the first book of the SA series about two months ago, and I just finished the 5 currently published books.

I discovered the series through a mention on the forums, and also by googling for fantasy maps. (I'm a real map nerd) What piqued my interest was a mention of the there being sci-fi elements of the story, which made it sound interesting... I'm primarily a Sci-Fi reader that does not care much for fantasy in general. I read LOTR before the film trilogy, and then didn't really read much until I picked up GRRM's ASOIAF shortly before the show started on HBO. The world-building aspects of fantasy has to be VERY good, otherwise I just won't bother, and it was pointed out that Bakker's SA was of similar quality as GRRM's work. And I agree, although Bakker has different strengths (and weaknesses) compared to GRRM.

But I'm a big fan now, and I'm about to start my re-read of the series. I have this nasty habit of skimming boring parts (certain POVs) when reading the first time, so I know I'll pick up a LOT more the 2nd time around.

Anyway, I hope to contribute to this forum more in the near future, but I may not have much to write until I finish my re-read (and TGO).

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