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Topics - MSJ

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1
The No-God / TNG- Your expectations and wants
« on: November 09, 2017, 03:29:35 pm »
This thread has grown from another thread and would like to know what you guys expect. Why you expect it. And, ultimately, what would be best for Bakker, the author. See, we have a good example what happens when an author veers from his usual content, to that of full on philosophical musings. Insert Steve Erickson, who has had his 3rd and final installment of the Kharkanas Trilogy discontinued. And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I love Bakker and his writing. And, I am sure that Bakker is a good, decent human being. But, a hard-headed one at that. I think he needs to drift from the desolation of a world to that where Mankind can survive, barely. Its not a whole lot of hope and quite frankly a small amount of redemption, if any. The plot has been set up as to where this can happen. And, after the loss, or rather I say it's of so many Bakker fans at the end of TUC (which I don't get, because after reflection, I feel it was done splendidly), and further his AMA comments, which I don't understand the venomous outlash at that.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

In short, I think we'll get the same Bakker. Great prose, description top notch, better than anyone I've read and a continue to build a world with so much intrigue and mystery that its had me on this board for 5 years discussing and dissecting.

So please, offer your take on all that I have. Your reasons, why you might think this or that would happen. And, I would love for textual evidence to be sighted. Just not what you would want, but if its what you want, where that's backed up in the story.

2
General Misc. / College Football
« on: September 09, 2017, 09:01:54 pm »
I'm a huge WVU fan. See, we have no pro sports here in WV and the Mountaineers are our team. We love them and Saturdays in the fall are all about the Eers'.

We lost to VT last week, a game we should've won and had many opportunities to win. But, it was a season opener with a new QB against a very good opponent and we held our own. Today, beat ECU 56-20. Grier loved good as did Crawford. We needed this game, to get our new team in a flow and give them some confidence. I think we'll shock alot of people in the BIGXII this year, because, as always, we're not getting any respect. I like it that way though.

Any other college fans? Wannna talk some football? Here's a thread for it.

3
The Unholy Consult / (TUC spoilers) Esme, what makes her so important
« on: September 01, 2017, 03:16:28 pm »
This thread is based on a post The Honorable H made elsewhere. So, I'm not taking credit from him. But, I've been thinking long on this since then.

H, mentioned that Esme brought The Prophet (Mimara) and also The No-God (Kelmommas) into the world. She is Kellhus only darkness. (Is go into Baby Kellhus here but that's another thread, and one im continually interested in).

H, brought up how she is the Mary mother of Jesus figure and possibly Mary Magdalene. All quote interesting tho he to think on.

Kellhus knew he had to have Esme and in PiN attributed to her intellect, bullshit. He just hadn't learned enough about the world to know her importance at the time and I don't think he did at the end either. I do think he loved her, but I won't go over that her. You can find many a thread with H and I arguing over that. But, one thing is for sure, Esme is crucial to the events of TSA so far and wherever it goes from here.

So, I'd love for H to share his thoughts, but others too. What makes this women, basically the bringer of God and The No-God into the world. And, any ideas as to what role she might play going forward.

4
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers] The Nonman who reached Oblivion..
« on: August 04, 2017, 07:42:56 pm »
When the Ciphrang kills the Nonman and cannot find his soul afterward, i immediately knew that the Nonman had found oblivion. I dont even think its in doubt. Its possible. Even though, throighout the whole series we're told that it is not. This would also go back to Akka and Cnaüir's talk about madness and it leaking in and Kellhus saying thats not how it works, he thought there wasnt any cracks. Apparently, there are. Did anyone else get that he went to Oblivion also?

[EDIT Madness: Title. Almost Tuesday, erryone.]

5
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché
« on: July 28, 2017, 09:38:56 pm »
Well, from the Q&A we definitely know that Akokli cannot find Kellhus. Theories have been put forth on ways he has escaped. From Bakkers answer i am now leaning towards Decapitant. But, i also like to think that that serene place he talked to himself in his dreams is his own little niché in the Outside. That he's warring to kill the 100 and end the soul munching, rewrite the rules of the Outside, so to say. But, please, id live to hear your thoughts on where he is. Because he isnt God food, that has been confirmed. Also confirmed, is that he tricked the Trickster, as ive been saying. Sorry, Redeagl, youll be seeing more of Kellhus.

Quote from:  Jurble
Not to derail this thread, but the Baby Kellhus Theory (henceforth to be referred to as M+A=K) isn't contingent on Kellhus knowing Mimara has TJE.  Its only presumption is that Kellhus is now a baby.

If you want me to, i will go back to Westeros and here and quote your posts. You inferred that the Tapestry was proof of Baby Kellhus, it confirmed it. Mimara's baby was vorn before the rise of the No-God, so it got its soul from the Outside. The only way possible that Kellhus became Mimara's baby is if when he died he went ro the Outside and at the time of birth his soul went to the babies. I guess its plausible, but he would of had ro have known a lot about Mimara. If he knew nothing about the meaning of the Tapestry, that tells me he knew nothing of her being pregnant.

Anyhow, i am open to any all all theories and would live to hear all your ideas.

[Wilshire: Editing title slightly to remove possible spoiler content - it's getting harder to come up with good ones!]

6
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers]Mimara..The Tapestry
« on: July 23, 2017, 11:59:05 pm »
Quote from:  TUC
Light gleams across a thatch of golden thread, drawing her eye to what appears to be a heavy blanket crumpled across a cot—a kind of field settee to her right. She walks toward it, savouring the feeling of fabric beneath her toes. A terror leaps upon the summit of her breath. Her throat aches.
She clutches the blanket, draws it out like a matron inspecting wares in the market. For a time she draws no breath whatsoever.
The blanket is actually a small ornamental tapestry, supple for the extraordinary quality of the weave. The tapestry itself she has seen before, she realizes. It once hung in the Sartorials, the imperial feast hall near the summit of the Andiamine Heights. But the image ... that she has seen much more recently.
It seems she can even smell it, the moss and rotting bark, the air choked of all motion—the Mop.
A dank socket between trees. A rare shaft of moonlight. Her own reflection across a black pool ... only transformed by the Eye into the very image she now holds in her hands ...
A pregnant woman, her cropped hair all the more black for the plate of brilliant silver about her head.
Blessed.

So, here is the quote on the tapestry, where the Kellhus is Mimara's baby have sprung from. I dont know if that is the case, but i find this a beatiful piece of writing. That this existed in the Momemn the whole time Mimara was there, suggests Kellhus did know of her role as prophetess, maybe. This could just be a tapestry depicting a prophecy that is ancient. I do think Kellhus knew that Mimara was with the Eye and needed her at Golgoterreath. Why? I really have no clue, but lets discuss it. Do you think Kellhus commissioned the Tapestry? Do you think it existed even before Kellhua arrived in the Three-Seas? Its important, that is without question. Would love to hear all of your thoughts.

7
Literature / Yearly Targets and what youve read. 2017
« on: January 05, 2017, 07:06:47 pm »
Continue.

I have just finished Dune (1), and am about halfway through Dune Messiah. I heard the first three are the only ones worth reading so I'll go onto Hyperion Cantos after that, thank you Wilshire. I'm gonna do a little sci-fi and then a complete TSA re-read before TUC comes out. Happy New Years, to all.

8
General Misc. / The Offended Eye
« on: November 03, 2016, 09:07:33 pm »
This is just in response to Hiro and my exhange and the confusion henceforth. Again, apologies Hiro if you thought it directed at you and can see why you could think that. I'm a internet stooge sometimes and don't convey enough information in my posts for people to clearly understand my intent.

First, let me give you a little background on me. I as raised by my grandparents. My biological mom had me when she was 15, dad was 17. Neither were fit to raise me and my younger brother and my father's parents raised me. My BM (biological mom from here on out) then went on to marry a black man. Never had a great relationship with BM when I was younger, let's just say she had her own personal demons. But my step-father was there for me to make sir I had a relationship with my half sisters (whom are obviously half black). Till this day I have more love for him than my BM. I had great relationships with my sister's, all but one who seemed to think of me as a honky (funny since we both came out of a white woman, though that is bridge under the water.). But me giving everyone this back story of my life is to show as a "so-called privileged white make I've dealt with racism my entire life. I live in WV, where these kinds familys, you could say, can be look down upon. I've been called n****s lover for simply having black sisters, dealt with my BM being stared at and sneered at while in public with all these "different"looking kids. And that doesn't even touch the surface, those are some vanilla examples, there have been worse, fights where my step-father didn't put up with that. What I'm saying is im no stranger to racism. I've seen the uglines of it And fought against it my entire life.

That being said, in referring to Wilshire's statement is was more in regard to people wanting to be offended, wanting to feel wrong. It's EVERYONE, every ethnicity, social demographic, the rich, the poor and son and so on. I've made several attempts to call people in this bullshit on Facebook and ask them to try and find a solution to these problems. Guess what? No responses, other than from my aisters who know my intentions, know where my heart on these issues truly lie. And, it's not just minorities or women, it's white men, executives, businessmen, again EVERYONE. It's like everyone feels they have to right to blame their problems on everyone else, take insult to any words that might offend their ears, without looking at intent, exact what Wilshire said.

So, I'll ask you guys. What can we do to stop all of this division? To stop everyone bitching and moaning and blaming their lot in life on racism and sexism and any other ism you can think of. It's so rampant and, to me, causes more harm than good. It just keeps the division and hate at the front and center. I've yet to have anyone offer me any kind of solution, or hell, a way to start moving towards one. Or, is this just human nature and this will always exist? This want to take sides and "go to war" over what in my mind, could be solved by open minds and a willingness to cooperate.

So there, I've opened up, told you a little about my background and where I'm coming from and how I see these issues. I'm sure this thread will get looked at and no one will want to touch it. But, it's something that weighs heavily on me. As a white male, I've experienced the hate of racism first hand, when supposedly that cannot be the case, because of white privilege and all that. I'd just like to hear other stories and thoughts on how, maybe, one day we can all co-exist as humans. Not by the color of our skin or how much money we live on, or our sexual orientation and so forth.

9
The Great Ordeal / Kellhus's Visions
« on: September 29, 2016, 10:36:12 pm »
So, here recently, I have became very interested in Kellhus's visions of the tree and the Monk. We see in TGO that it seems that its Kellhus. Which at face value might be true. But, Moenghus is described as the spitting image of Kiellhus, just bald and eyeless. Now, what he would look like in the Outside might be very different than when he was alive and the time of his death. The same can be said of Koringhus. Those are the only options i see. I think whoever it is, they have escaped damnation, which is why I include Koringhus, even though his part was small, after joining the Absolute he would have access to all of time. Here is the first vision Kellhus has on the Circumfix. I will add the rest in order as I find them, or if any of you would like to help, please do. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on who it is and their motivations.

Quote
Something dropped within him, and he tumbled into sleep, cold water rinsing bruised and broken skin. Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth. A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright. The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest. And a tree with branches that swept up and out, forking across the bowl of the night. And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies. And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move. The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day. Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth … WHAT DO YOU SEE? The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast. TELL ME … Whole worlds wailed in terror. The Warrior-Prophet awoke, his skin tingling against a dead woman’s cheek … More convulsions. Father! What happens to me? Pang upon pang, wresting away his face, beating it into a stranger’s. You weep.

Okay, first off, as I said whoever it is has avoided damnation and trying to steer Kellhus in a certain direction. One clue here that leads me to Kellhus, is the legs of a beast. Has the Meat consumed made him part beast and that transformation shows in the Outside? Also, Locke brought this to my attention, but the tree could be a entity also. Locke suggested Koringhus, which is a viable option if we take into consideration how he died. Basically, to make a long story short, to be one with nature. Two more options exist in my mind. Onkis, who is shown to be part woman, part tree. Also, Kellhus is seated in front of the tree, can anyone say a head on a pole behind you? The other option, The God. And this could connect to all the tree imagery that has been brought up throughout the entirety of the series.  Just some quick thoughts and I will find and add the other visions of the same style thats throughout the books. Others feel free to add them if you have them highlighted in your Kindle. And please, would love to hear others thoughts.

10
The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] Kellhus
« on: July 14, 2016, 07:36:37 am »
ARC thread here.

First post:

Quote from: Blackstone
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

11
The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] Mimara
« on: July 13, 2016, 11:20:47 pm »
ARC thread is here.

First post:

Quote from: MSJ
Mimara, as other have said, has been coming into her own I TGO and I really enjoy it also. A place here to talk about all things Mimara. Some observations.

1. Koringhus ruminating on Mimara:
"Her every step Conditioned Ground.
She did not know this knowing, of course, which was what made it so much more remarkable...even miraculous. She bore an assurance that was not Her own- and how could it be? How could anything bottomless be owned, let alone fathomed, by a soul so infinite, so frail?"

While we could assume Kellhus conditions the ground, I think it's obvious the it's the God, as Akka was struck by the revelation that he walked with the God earlier. Mimara certainly seems to be the prophet, I wonder why the Consult chose to protect her? Could the Eye show that what they try to do is the right thing? Is assume that the same would be said of Kellhus then too. Kellhus just doesn't want the Vile to be the ones to do it, and I believe he would want to salvage as much as possible. Not reduce the population as a way to shut out the Gods.

2. I do think that Mimara is jumping to conclusions with Kellhus. Just as she did with Koringhus. After she forgives him and the Eye approves of the Zero, he reaches for the Absolute. Its why I said I don't believe the Eye is 100% reliable, as things do change.

12
The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] The Gods
« on: July 13, 2016, 09:09:13 pm »
ARC thread here.

First post in ARC thread:

Quote from: MSJ
I'm beginning to believe there is whole lot more going on with Onkis and Ajokli. Particularly, that Ajokli is more like a Loki figure, manipulating the Gods and Men to his own purpose. Maybe he is trying to take control of the Outside, but take a closer look at his entry in the glossary.

Quote
Ajokli—The God of thievery and deception. Though listed among the primary Gods in The Chronicle of the Tusk, there is no true Cult of Ajokli, but rather an informal network of devotees scattered across the great cities of the Three Seas. Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra.

Take note of the bolded, sometimes described as a companion of the Gods? I just believe there is more here and would love your thoughts. Here is Onkis's entry and her obvious connection to TDTCB and Nonmen.

Quote
Onkis—The Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers. She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called “shakers” belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where the devotees ritually strive to be “possessed” by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the legendary Nonman Mansion of Siol, though no link has been established.)

The bolded brought me to flip through and see what the glossary had to say about Nonmen, here is the part that is intriguing.


Quote
Nonmen—At one time the pre-eminent race of Eärwa, but now much reduced. The Nonmen call themselves ji’cûnû roi, “the People of Dawn,” for reasons they can no longer remember.

The People of Dawn and they can no longer remember why they call themselves that, huh. The dawn of the Gods? Is Ajokli some great Nonman whom ascended to God-Hood and is manipulating them to try and avoid damnation for him and his brethren? I think Locke nailed the Onkis part of the equation, but what about Ajokli? What makes him so damn special?

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TGO ARC Discussion / [TGO SPOILERS] The Gods
« on: July 07, 2016, 09:50:20 pm »
I'm beginning to believe there is whole lot more going on with Onkis and Ajokli. Particularly, that Ajokli is more like a Loki figure, manipulating the Gods and Men to his own purpose. Maybe he is trying to take control of the Outside, but take a closer look at his entry in the glossary.

Quote
Ajokli—The God of thievery and deception. Though listed among the primary Gods in The Chronicle of the Tusk, there is no true Cult of Ajokli, but rather an informal network of devotees scattered across the great cities of the Three Seas. Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra.

Take note of the bolded, sometimes described as a companion of the Gods? I just believe there is more here and would love your thoughts. Here is Onkis's entry and her obvious connection to TDTCB and Nonmen.

Quote
Onkis—The Goddess of hope and aspiration. One of the so-called Compensatory Gods, who reward devotion in life with paradise in the afterlife, Onkis draws followers from all walks of life, though rarely in great numbers. She is only mentioned twice in the Higarata, and in the (likely apocryphal) Parnishtas she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men. The so-called “shakers” belong to an extreme branch of the Cult, where the devotees ritually strive to be “possessed” by the Goddess. Her symbol is the Copper Tree (which also happens to be the device of the legendary Nonman Mansion of Siol, though no link has been established.)

The bolded brought me to flip through and see what the glossary had to say about Nonmen, here is the part that is intriguing.


Quote
Nonmen—At one time the pre-eminent race of Eärwa, but now much reduced. The Nonmen call themselves ji’cûnû roi, “the People of Dawn,” for reasons they can no longer remember.

The People of Dawn and they can no longer remember why they call themselves that, huh. The dawn of the Gods? Is Ajokli some great Nonman whom ascended to God-Hood and is manipulating them to try and avoid damnation for him and his brethren? I think Locke nailed the Onkis part of the equation, but what about Ajokli? What makes him so damn special?



14
General Misc. / WV Flood
« on: June 28, 2016, 01:27:00 am »
I didn't know where to put this and thought here would be as good as any. I am really devastated about the flooding that occured this past weekend in West Virginia, my home. Where I am located, we were lucky and never got any flooding that caused any damage or harm to anyone. Southern WV is in dire straights, however. 44 counties have been affected by flooding, what meteorologists call a 1000 year flood. Towns wiped out, High Schools filled with mud and debris. 25 people have lost their life as of today, around the same amount unaccounted for.

Through all of this, I've seen what type of people live in this great state. There has been no looting, no murders and people trying to take advantage of others when their down. I see what made America great, EVERYONE I know has either donated water and canned goods or their time and labour. As sad as I am for the people of southern WV, I am filled with pride with the generosity and attitude of all the Mountaineers in this great state. We are always on the bad end of bad jokes, said to be illiterate, inbred and redneck hillbillies. I just want everyone to pay attention to the people of WV and see how we handle adversity, a lesson for the more civilised people's of the world. We are at a low point right now, but we were all raised to keep our head held high and to take care of one another. I'm proud to be a Mountaineer!

That being said, southern WV is an extremely poor area. The coal mines have been shut down over the years and there is not much else in that area as far as jobs are concerned. My Facebook is flooded with pictures of West Virginians taking tractor trailer loads of food, water and supplies to help those in their time of need. If anyone would like to help I'll leave this article with a few different ways that you could. Anything would help. Sorry for bringing this up and leaving it here, but I'd like everyone to know what we're going through right now. #MOUNTAINEERSTRONG!

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57715a4de4b0dbb1bbbb4b1e

15
Author Q&A / [TGO SPOILERS] Belief
« on: June 22, 2016, 10:19:00 pm »
I absolutely love the idea, or the fact of I should say, of Viramsata. And, we know that this is the tool Moe and Kellhus used to shape the Thousandfold Thought. Lie made truth, breath that is ground. So, essentially belief makes real. Yet, we see through the Judging Eye that there is objective morality on Earwa. Wether that is the God of Gods (i believe), the Zero-God or some other imposter makes no difference, it exists. Then, in TGO we come to find out that the 100 are separate and have set up damnation as to be unavoidable, essentially(Let there be deceit, Let there be desire). Kinda long winded but what I want to ask is wether Belief can shape the Outside? Can or have the beliefs of what Kellhus has wrought changed the "morality meter" of the 100? Because enough people believe something, can it change the effect it has on their salvation/damnation?

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