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Messages - Wilshire

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Philosophy & Science / Re: AlphaZero "Learns Chess" in Four Hours
« on: December 08, 2017, 12:44:47 pm »
Machine Learning is the present day future, and its delightful.

Literature / Re: 13 Classic Science Fiction Books Everyone Should Read
« on: December 08, 2017, 12:41:23 pm »
Read most of those, probably 3 or 4 that I haven't read or haven't heard of. Interesting.

He did say Insertant.
Fair enough.

Also, if the No-God wasn't known then why wouldn't Bakker refute it in this quote?
That's not a rabbit hole I care to go down. Bakker said what he said. Speculating on his intent and his reasons doesn't interest me, sorry.

And why would the mutilated consider the Object i.e. the Carapace and extension of the Ark's will if the Object and the No-God arising when an insertant is inserted were unknown to it?
What TUC's consult know, is not what The Consult of past know, nor is the Old Consult the same as the Inchoroi. The Inchoroi just did what they were told and knew very little of anything.

Shae's genius was somehow figuring out the No-God needed to be restored.

That it incorporated a bunch of chorae makes me believe it had something specific to do with Earwa/Magic/Consult. I realize that contradicts what I said earlier -
 I just think it took Shae and all his understanding to invent it.Maybe the Dunyain improved on the design to make it work properly with the boostrapped chorae version...

There might be a quote somewhere that mentions the Consult discovering plans for the no god in the ship...

Yes I agree that the womb-plague was a separate thing, a coincidence that helped reduce the number of souls toward that 144k goal.
That was mostly to close out the other conversation with MSJ, but I'm glad someone agrees with me though :).

That's not all what I interpret. I see this as Eärwa literally being special,
agreed. I'm not arguing that Earwa isn't special, but that they likely thought every one was special - else why bother exterminating them.

which is also probably the reason why Ark crashed.
Could be. No issues there.

Something about this world sets it apart from the rest of the universe.
Right, that's pretty obvious.

They used the No-God on other worlds,
No idea how you got to that conclusion.

but were unable to shut off the Outside.

Also, take Bakkers comment about the No-God and e.g. Kelmomas:
"And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant."
Did he say original "insertant"? I thought he said original creators. Doesn't matter though:

How would there be an original Insertant if Ark didn't know about the No-God? It was an extension of itself, as the Mutilated also mention.
You answered your own question. The Ark is the No-God, but something something Earwa short circuited it. The Ark was the original insertant, in that, the Ark was basically the original no-god. The Sarcophagus is a stripped down version that can move around without using all the power of several suns. ... In essence, we're both right?

The No-God needed something to approximate the Ark brain so it could move around without the ark directing it ... directly. My present guess is that the ark via neuropuncture took a brain that was close enough, did some rewiring to approximate itself, and sent its baby out into the word to kill all humans.

I maintain that the Inchoroi didn't know anything of the No-God. They're a dumb weapon race with little idea of what the Ark was doing or wanted. Shae and the Consult created the No-God as we know it. Shae being a big key here, as he was smarter than all the living inchoroi, and apparently smarter than most any man in history save the dunyain. I assume given that the original NG had the chorae, that it was a tekne creation.

At any rate, imo the inoculation was a bioweapon the inchoroi made with the tekne.
The womb plague was something different related to the rise of the no-god.

What does that show? The Inchoroi probably thought every planet was the promised land.
Granted, no other planet has sorcery, which makes Earwa special, but even then that doesn't point to knowing anything of the No-God. If they knew of it, they'd have tried to use it, and even if they did knew and did try to make it work, it never turned on, so I'm sure they long since abandoned it.

No. The No-God was new to Earwa.

Philosophy & Science / Re: AlphaZero "Learns Chess" in Four Hours
« on: December 07, 2017, 04:30:05 pm »
Love it. Can't wait for chess player's to pull a Genie in Aladdin.

Scene: Genie sets up a game of pool against Carpet. New rack.
"Your shot. Pool's a man's game so being a rug, you'll be at a disadvan... "
*Carpet shoots, gets every single ball in on a single hit*
"...Pool's a dumb game anyway"

(sorry, couldnt find the clip)

Chess is much less impressive than people are lead to believe, but especially from a 'difficult for a computer" perspective. There are a finite set of moves, and its a solvable game - ie if both players play a perfect game, the person who goes first will always win.

In truth, though this should be clear since it took 4 hours, this achievement is far, far less impressive than the Go AI.

Still a great breakthrough for machine learning though :).

I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function."
That's what I'm saying - the Inoculation was a drug of some description the Inchoroi used on the Nonmen. This is not the same thing as the womb plague.

"dread weapon for at least part of the no gods function" - I don't know the context of this, so correct me if I'm wrong. To me "dread weapon" is an indication that the Inoculation, which killed half the nonmen and stopping them from breeding, helped accomplish the 144k goal. The 144k being 'part of the no gods function'.

All of that is physical/biological/mundane warfare. Remember the No-God wasn't even in play during the Inoculation. The Inchoroi still hadn't realized that their 144k plan needed something more - specifically the No-God - to shut the world (which is why it hadn't worked prior to earwa).

I can't reckon the the text with that answer. I'm with you, the text seems to suggest metaphysical, Bakker's answer though physical. To me, they don't align and its why I take every answer from Bakker with a grain of salt. Cool answer to a question, doesn't back itself up in the text and we get a lot of those. :shrugs:

I still think you're confusing two separate things as one event. The Womb Plague only happened when the No-God came, and has nothing to do with the inoculation. Unless the quote is specifically referring to the Womb Plague and not the inoculation, I don't see the conflict.


I think he spent a lot of time and effort preserving the mystery and probably will never want to do a 'tell all Q/A'. His answers are to vaguely clear up mistakes/miscommunication without giving it away. A magic trick only works if you can see the magician but don't know the trick - so if Bakker reads a question and realizes that the curtain was still down when he did the trick, he tries to tell us what we should have seen, which isn't to say he's giving an answer.

Hopefully that makes sense. The text is unquestionably supposed to be a riddle or some kind, and it also unquestionably has mistakes and wasn't executed perfectly. Asking for answers puts him in a awkward position of trying to re-explain what he was trying to do without giving away the secret. So yeah, his answers are cagey and often unsatisfying.

Also, I think he expected scrutiny, but doubt he expected that he himself would have to answer to it lol. So his words end up being a bit of a contradictory mess. A cagey off-the-cuff answer isn't going to be as fleshed out as his books, and he often ends up making the confusion worse . I give him the benefit of the doubt though -definitely possible that he's just a dick ;).

Comes down to the age old question, what is the no-god? Many think its some kind of soul vacuum. Given TUC, at least Ajokli was able to very directly interact with Celmomas, so it seems that while the no-god interrupts the outside in some way due to the whole no babies thing, the Gods are still able to interact. And, obviously, magic still works too. So its not a simple open/close dichotomy - probably something more like a bad connection to a cellphone tower. You can still get service, but its intermittent and/or weak.

Philosophy & Science / Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing
« on: December 07, 2017, 12:58:47 pm »
We've definitely been talking about this for years.

What this article is talking about is a huge paradigm shift in how we - ie people - see value. As a society, we don't really care about intelligence, we care about wealth and fame above all else. At least, that's what I see it here in the US.

I might have missed it, but the vast majority of patents are held by corporations - not people - so I'm not sure the socioeconomic analysis is hugely valid. I get the warning, of course statistically there are more people that could have been a great inventor/innovator, but the inequity likely doesn't start or stop with economics.

The article cries fowl of wealth inequity, and I'm not saying that isn't a factor. But what's more staggering to me is the way parental habits affect children. It seems largely that children follow in their parents' footsteps on so many paths - be it relationships, jobs, education ... most anything. We make screwed up clones of ourselves - and that's terrifying.

MSJ, I don't think p-zombies (which I don't understand anyway) are different than the mechanisms used for shutting the world. Like, an effect of what happens post-Consult victory.

I also think you're combining two separate events. There's the time that the Inchoroi killed all the women, and the time that all human babies were born sterile. The first event the Inchoroi physically "inoculated" all the non-people to make them immortal - and it killed the women. The second event, something weird happened connected to the rise of the No-God, and all babies were born dead.

Not that this is the right thread, lol, but you don't think the dead babies are a meta-physical phenomenon? You think its strictly biological - some kind of world wide virus (or whatever) that kills all the unborn?

I believe the train of thought is this:

Gods make Meaning, Meaning makes Sorcery. No Gods, no Meaning, no Magic.
In the same vein, The Outside makes Souls, Souls inhabit Bodies. No Outside, no souls.

I'm not sure that makes sense either - but that seems to be what people are saying, maybe.

The No-God / Re: TNG- Your expectations and wants
« on: December 06, 2017, 06:45:24 pm »
Yeah, that pretty much matches up with my understanding.

Though I would point out that Earwa is already the old scripture of our world, so that Earwa becomes disenchanted is pretty much a foregone conclusion. After all, the Consult have always won, what remains seen is if its now or sometime in the future ;). FWIW though, I doubt TNG will go that far into the future to where we see it disenchanted.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading The Unholy Consult
« on: December 06, 2017, 06:40:17 pm »
Quote from:  Ciogli
Pwerhaps the chorae was not special so much as it signalled her revelation and it was she foresweared sorcery, she could do this to any chorae.


My exact feelings. There was nothing special about the chorale, Mimara is/who is special. It could've been any chorale.

There are pieces throught TAE where she talks about the chorae, but especially when it first happens. I can't recall if she refers to 'the chorae' specifically or Chorae generally as truly tears of god (if you could only see what I see, Akka! - something like that).

General Earwa / Re: TSACast (SA Podcast)
« on: December 06, 2017, 05:51:06 pm »
The Horns!

Coincidences can be creepy :)

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