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Messages - Cosi

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] What's Missing from TGO
« on: August 07, 2016, 05:20:43 am »
Chorae:

I was surprised we didn't get more about whatever Mimara did to banish The Wight In The Mountain. That was presented as something special and important in TJE (and WLW I think), but it seems to have been abandoned. Particularly, she makes a Chorae/Tear of God distinction after she "inverts" it which seems like a really obvious hint. If only I could figure out what it means.

We do get a couple of bits. Crab-boy uses a Chorae on Chipmunk, and one gets thrown around in the climax in Ishterebinth.

I do wonder if there's some role for the Chorae horde. It was mentioned a couple of times, but nothing seems obvious.

Wutteat:

He's pretty clearly done with whatever role he played in Akka's story. The interesting question is how involved he is with the Consult. It seemed like he basically doesn't care and just wants them to get on with ending the world already.

Iyokus:

I expect we'll see more of him (and the Daimos) in future, particularly with Ciphrang!Malowebi running around. I wonder why the Scarlet Spires haven't let loose with the Daimos yet. Maybe Kellhus is holding it in reserve for something? Also, have other schools been taught the Daimos?

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS
« on: August 07, 2016, 05:01:34 am »
Quote from: mrganondorf on August 07, 2016, 03:39:47 am
I wonder if any of the nonmen tried something like the Grasping to hold their souls together?

I was wondering about that. The Heart/Dreams are clearly a way to store memories outside someone's mind. If you can do that, you could just stick a bunch of happy memories in a store and dream every night anew of your wives, daughters, and glory. If I understand how the process of becoming Erratic works, that should stave it off indefinitely.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Self-Moving Souls in view of the Gods?
« on: July 31, 2016, 04:06:20 am »
Quote from: MSJ on July 31, 2016, 01:57:09 am
Quick question - If Yatwer cannot see Kellhus, then why has she sent forth two agents, one filled (WLW) and one anointed (Sorweel) to kill Kellhus. If she was blind to Kellhus, then she wouldn't even know to go after him, no?

Maybe she sees him to a different degree or in a different way than she does other things? Maybe she sees a probability distribution mapping the most likely actions he might take. Maybe he is not "continuous" in her sight and she can't track him from moment to moment. Maybe she doesn't fully understand his mind/soul and has to predict based on a mental model of him. Maybe they're both predicting off of TDTCB and their predictions create interference effects.

Based on my understanding of the less Momemn chapter, she can "see" both Kellhus and Kelmomas, they can just take actions (only some of the time?) that she can't predict. So she can see Kellhus, but he can still act unpredictably.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
« on: July 31, 2016, 03:59:23 am »
The Zeumi seem to be the only power in the modern era that's still creating magic items. Scarlet Spires, Mandate, Cisharum, and all the other Three Seas schools seem to rely mostly on raw sorcerous power to do stuff. Malowebi on the other hand seems to have a bunch of magical trinkets for various purposes, and his school is described (IIRC) as a "Fetishistic Anagogic School". Kellhus may have interest in looking at their notes, or perhaps he wants something specific they have squirreled away. Perhaps related to Titirga's Day Latern (which seems too important not to come up again).

Does someone have a summary of what we know about magic items? Particularly, I recall that a lot of them are of Nonman origin. Were any significant number made by Men?

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] TGO Suicides
« on: July 29, 2016, 03:39:19 pm »
It's definitely an interesting thread. Consider also the Boatman, who is too senile to become Erratic. It's almost as if the Nonmen only have room for one sort of madness.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus
« on: July 29, 2016, 01:52:52 am »
It was revealed, I think in WLW, that they did. But Nonmen babies are even harder on human women than Dunyain babies, and none came to term. Although I have heard some people speculate about Nonmen blood somewhere in Kellhus's line, so there may be something I missed.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus
« on: July 29, 2016, 01:09:04 am »
Definitely an interesting parallel. One of the meta-themes in the book is how different groups approach similar problems (i.e. Consult/Men/Nonmen and Damnation, various Dunyain and the world, the First and Second Apocalypses). I've thought for a while that there were some strong parallels between Dunyain and Nonmen. Apart from Men, in ways that are both superior (immortal or supremely intelligent) and inferior (insane or incapable of emotion). I half expected Kellhus to offer the Nonmen Dunyain breeding techniques as a way of recruiting with them.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Malowebi
« on: July 29, 2016, 12:31:51 am »
I really hope there's enough Malowebi left in there for him to take some kind of especially petty revenge on Likaro when he goes on his rampage.

Possession is probably "desirable" (I put that in quotes because I think Ciphrang are probably happiest just staying the Outside) because it's less painful than being incarnated. If Ciphrang are souls of particularly "strong" mortals, it's also possible possession allows them to experience the pleasures of life.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The DREAMS
« on: July 28, 2016, 11:27:55 pm »
If you can store Seswatha's memories in the heart, presumably you can store other people's. Or transfer them to Seswatha. My question is how he got Nau's memories when he (presumably) died in Golgotterath.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] TGO Suicides
« on: July 28, 2016, 11:25:07 pm »
Oinaral I think was less "suicide" and more "accepting death". I think if he knew some way to survive rousing his father, he would have done so, but he was willing to die if that was what it took.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Meppa is...
« on: July 28, 2016, 11:22:56 pm »
Completely baseless Meppa speculation:

1. Child of Moenghus who was hidden away by his mother.
2. Skin-spy who turned against the Consult after getting a soul somehow.
3. Fane, reincarnated or just straight up immortal.
4. The man who will become the Solitary God.
5. No one special. Just some random guy with Cisharum training.

Some of these may have been suggested before. I hope at least one is new.

My money is on Moenghus being involved someone, even if he doesn't play a central role in Meppa's backstory. It seems unlikely to me that he would have had no contingency plan for not being able to persuade Kellhus (he must have at least suspect that Kellhus might side with the Consult).

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Self-Moving Souls in view of the Gods?
« on: July 28, 2016, 08:45:08 pm »
So the gods have perfect prediction based on TDTCB. Isn't that what the Dunyain were searching for? The ability to grasp the Absolute and have total mastery of circumstance. Perhaps the gods are the remnants of a earlier attempt to do what the Dunyain did. This would imply that the gods can't predict the actions of other gods (another explanation for Kelmomas). Also consider Dunyain/Dunyain interactions (like Kellhus/Moenghus). They don't see to have the same ability to read each other. For example, Kellhus and Moenghus seem to mostly make general predictions based on the assumption that the other would act the way they would. Moenghus doesn't deduce the Metagnosis, whereas Kellhus learned about the second inutteral from reading Achamain.

On a related note, compare WLW versus Dunyain. The WLW succeeds because circumstances are always already the way they must be to enable his success. He is perfectly adapted to circumstance. Conversely, Dunyain seek to war with circumstance, adapting circumstances around them.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Momemn
« on: July 28, 2016, 08:33:31 pm »
Another point to consider is Kellhus v Primaries. My recollection is that he's nearly beaten blow-to-blow, and leans very heavily on Metagnostic teleportation to win. I'm away from book right now, so I might be misremembering. Also, he's pretty new to the Metagnosis at that point, so it's not perfect.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?
« on: July 25, 2016, 03:54:35 am »
Quote from: spacemost on July 24, 2016, 11:46:41 pm
Has Mimara ever seen a 'pure' soul with her eye? Maybe everyone is damned.

I recall early in The Judging Eye when she's first introduced it mentions something like "good men shine more than good women", but that could easily be a degrees of damnation thing rather than seeing people who are actually saved.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] The Parts Appalling
« on: July 24, 2016, 03:57:32 am »
Quote from: spacemost on July 24, 2016, 12:04:00 am
Got some major Inchoroi vibes from this, too. They seem to enjoy sodomizing people.

I dunno. I read zero joy in that. No emotion at all, really. The language Bakker uses is very non-natural and removed. Within the story, it seemed pretty clearly a part of Kellhus's plan to prepare Proyas and/or Saubon to lead the Ordeal.

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