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Messages - ThoughtsOfThelli

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The No-God / Re: Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?
« on: May 24, 2018, 11:30:56 pm »
Yet it might also be that he meant that the books might be structured around shorter, more self-contained arcs.  As Esme notes in TTT, the through line for the Sagas was Seswatha -- he'd appear and disappear and played a number of different roles.  So I could imagine something where there are a lot of new POV's that experience TSA with Akka and his ragtag band as the through line.

I like this idea, having not only the Akka POVs but also seeing him from new (or returning) minor or secondary characters' eyes. Remember how Seswatha was seen as villainous, or at least morally ambiguous, in some of the books of the Sagas? It's very likely we'd have the same happen in Akka's case, especially since he's already the infamous Wizard who renounced their late Holy Aspect-Emperor...

The No-God / Re: Kellhus and the Dreams - what could it lead to?
« on: May 24, 2018, 11:27:00 pm »
As I have said in previous threads, I think this theory of yours has potential. :)

I agree that it's quite likely that Kellhus will replace Seswatha in future Dreams, since as MSJ said, what Seswatha tried to prevent already happened, his role could be considered complete (also, Akka is now the Seswatha figure of the story).

I think it would be interesting if Akka's first Kellhus Dream took place chronologically shortly after Akka renounced him, his School and Esmenet back in the spring of 4112. Akka could even "catch up" with significant events in Kellhus' life from the past 20 years over the course of the series.

Now, will anyone else have the Kellhus Dreams? Serwa would be an obvious choice would be interesting to have her react to possibly learning quite a few things she didn't know about the father she idolized - especially after his Thousandfold Thought failed at the end of TUC. As for anyone else, I'd love it if one or more of the witches had survived and become secondary characters who also have the New Dreams. Having at least one other Mandati, such as Saccarees (if he survived, I think it's likely he could have) react to the Dreams would also be nice (Nautzera could even return in this capacity...).

News/Announcements / Re: TSA T-Shirt Contest
« on: May 24, 2018, 03:49:38 pm »
I did say it belonged in a T-shirt, so I'm going to nominate Wilshire's "No one hates like a Scylvendi" quote as potential T-shirt material.

Also, MSJ is right - "War is intellect" needs to be on one as well.

Malowebi also has many great T-shirt worthy quotes, but I need to hunt for the best ones before actually mentioning one here, in case I forget something.

The No-God / Re: Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?
« on: May 23, 2018, 08:36:13 pm »
Well, we still have ZeŁm and Eanna, but we don't know how much of a threat they may pose to them. I don't think the Mutilated would have a problem risking or giving up their individual lives if it was part of the Shortest Path to the World being shut.

I agree, I just don't think that the Shortest Path requires that to happen during the near future.

One of the Mutilated uses sorcery.  Which I assumed was the Gnosis (taught by Mek or other Nonmen) although it totally could be Anagogis. 

Huh, I had forgotten about that. Probably taught by Mek or one of the other QŻya, yes. Anyway, their sorcerous skill was presumably no match for Kellhus' Metagnosis and Daimos (it could be a match for Akka and/or any other sorcerer/witch who fights them in the future, though...).

In another thread I posited the idea of Kellhus returning in the Dreams as a means of control of circumstance beyond death. This could be how the Mandate and Swayali learn of the Mutilated (and of course, Achamian will Dream him first).

Your Dream theory is seeming more and more likely as discussion goes on, stuslayer. Presumably Akka would then learn not only of the Mutilated, but also of Kelmomas' fate (as everyone else who survived likely believes it was Kellhus in the Carapace).

I was thinking about the parallel between Subjects Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas.  NC was the device to reveal the IF and the Object, perhaps Kelmomas could do the same for others?

I don't think Akka will have Dreams from Kelmomas' POV if stuslayer's theory turns out to be true. Sure, Akka had Dreams from Nau-CayŻti's perspective from before he was placed in the Carapace, but we had Kelmomas' POV for 4 books, almost until the point he himself was inserted. It doesn't seem to me to be much point to an indirect Kelmomas POV.

The No-God / Re: Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?
« on: May 23, 2018, 04:29:02 pm »
edit: On the other hand though, it would be cool to see them e.g. fighting alongside the No-God using sorcery and/or restored Tekne artifacts to ensure it succeeds.

You think they'll reach the conclusion that it will be worth it to actually go out on the field and fight the armies of Men (and whatever surviving Nonmen there might be)?

I really can't see that happening unless humanity does manage to organize a decent enough army and that forces their hand. That won't be happening any time soon, I'd say, unless the survival rate among the Great Ordeal was much higher than we're led to believe...

Gnosis? I thought it was implied that Kellhus was unique among them in that regard... delivered to the Tekne vs delivered to the Gnosis (and Daimos)?

They still have QŻya working on their side, assuming some survived the battle at the end of TUC.

The No-God / Re: Will the Mutilated step out of the shadows?
« on: May 23, 2018, 04:00:14 pm »
That's an interesting question, profgrape.

My guess is that they might remain as the masterminds behind the scenes. After all, DŻnyain are pretty effective at doing so, and they have already done a great job of working things from "behind the curtain" for years. I don't know if there's any need for them to "go public" with the No-God and his legions presumably already doing everything that needs to be done (keep new humans from being born, then work on getting the population down to 144,000).
Though it's always possible they have other plans that we don't know about yet. Hopefully we will get a POV from at least one of them (or at least from Malowebi, who still seems to be around and fully-aware) that sheds some light on that.

Even if they don't announce their existence to the world, I think it's probable that Akka, Esmenet, Mimara and co. will return to Golgotterath by the end of the series and learn of their existence (and role in orchestrating the Second Apocalypse) then.

Yet aside from the horde of Skin Spies (one of whom salted Kellhus and will hopefully be getting a sweet end-of-year bonus)

This bit about the skin-spy did make me chuckle. ;) Jeff the skin-spy (making a reference to Eddie Izzard and his usual character naming conventions here...), employee of the year millennium!

Honestly?  A return to form for Bakker's writing.  TGO and TUC were really quite uneven in term of quality.

I think we need to get the POV of Bakker's editor in there... ;)

But joking aside, I agree with you on this. Things like the numerous mistakes and inconsistencies I've found since last summer would have been avoided with better editing.

Okay, finally made up my mind on this:
-MoŽnghus, because I'm very curious to see how he'll cope with the events of TUC (he was still concerned about KayŻtas and Serwa's well being at the end, and likely has no idea what happened to them...), living among the Scylvendi and dealing with CnaiŁr's legacy.
-Other - the Mutilated, I really hope we get the POV of at least one of them (whether they're really Shae or not). There are definitely many interesting things to be told there...
-New characters - I would love to get a POV from a) someone in ZeŁm (preferably Likaro) and/or b) Nersei Miramis (Proyas' wife). Hopefully both. I know these could both count as "Other - returning characters", but unlike the Mutilated, we've only heard mentions of them, we've never actually seen them on page. So I'm counting them as "new".

Still probably missing some characters, but here's Part III anyway.

Part III - Sons of Ishušl and Ordealmen

MoŽnghus the Elder
While there isn't as much information to go on in this case as there is for previous characters, I will nonetheless try to make a fair guess. First of all, I'm making the assumption that MoŽnghus was no younger than 20 at Kellhus' birth, due to prior training, and the need for testing to decide which DŻnyain would get to father children. In Part I, I estimated that Kellhus was born in 4076 or 4077, so we'd have MoŽnghus being born no later than 4056 or 4057.
The upper limit for his age is trickier. The best way to go about this here is probably to try and figure out how old MoŽnghus was when he was taken captive by the Utemot in 4079. While there aren't any obvious references, he doesn't seem to be middle-aged, as CnaiŁr himself was during PON. I'll make a (maybe unfounded) guess here and assume MoŽnghus was no older than 35 at this point (as it's likely he could have looked younger than his actual age - DŻnyain do seem to age well, if we consider how Kellhus looked in his 50s during TAE). That would result in an birth year between 4044 and 4057.
This is quite a large gap and not an estimation I'm very pleased with at the moment, so I may come back and change this one at a later time.

The absolute lower limit for Koringhus' age is easy to establish. Kellhus left Ishušl in late autumn of 4109. I think it's unlikely that he would have been allowed to leave - danger of corruption by MoŽnghus or not - if he didn't yet have a son to continue the AnasŻrimbor line. Thus, I think Koringhus was born no later than 4109 (since, as we know from the Boy's case, apparently DŻnyain can tell if a child is defective or shows promise by the time they're infants).
However, as that would make him only 23 during the events of TAE, it seems very likely that he is actually older, given that his son is referred to as a "boy" and not a toddler or young child. Making the same assumption I did for MoŽnghus and Kellhus' ages, if Koringhus was born when Kellhus was 20, that would give him a birth year of 4096 or 4097.
I'll also go ahead and assume (again, perhaps erroneously) that he's no younger than 30 during the events of TAE, meaning he'd have been born no later than 4102.
So that's my final estimation - Koringhus was born sometime between 4096 and 4102 (still a little unsure about this one, but at least I feel better about it than about the MoŽnghus one).

The Boy
Being that he is referred to as a "boy" and "child" and never as a "youth", "adolescent" or something of the sort, I'd guess that he cannot be any older than 12.
However, he is also referred as looking somewhat older than his actual age:
Quote from: TGO, Chapter 5
He was slender, and from the look of him, tall beyond his years.
Keeping in mind the "20-year assumption" made for MoŽnghus and Koringhus, we'd have him being born no later than 4122. This would make him 10 as of TGO. Though it actually seems to me that the Boy being no older than 10 makes more sense than no older than 12.
And comparing him to another (well, half- in this case) DŻnyain child, his half-uncle Kelmomas, I feel he's probably no younger than Kelmomas either. My best guess would then be that the Boy is somewhere between 8 and 10 years old, and thus was born between 4122 and 4124.

I have wanted to try and figure out Proyas' age properly for quite a while now.
What clues are there? Well, we know that Achamian was his tutor for 4 years:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 3
For four years, Achamian had tutored him in the non-sorcerous arts.
We also know when those four years actually ended:
Quote from: TTT Glossary, "Charamemas"
Charamemas (4036-4108)--The famed Shrial commentator and author of The Ten Holies. Achamian's replacement as Proyas's tutor in exoterics in 4093.
Achamian might mean four years as in a) four years had passed from the time he began tutoring Proyas to the time he was replaced (which would mean he became Proyas' tutor in 4089) or b) that he was Proyas' tutor during the years 4090, 4091, 4092 and 4093 (which would still be four different years). The former seems more likely. I'm going to assume Proyas wasn't any younger than 6 when Achamian became his tutor, which would give him a birth year of 4083 at the latest. I'll also make the assumption that he was no older than 12 when Achamian was dismissed, which would mean he was born in 4081 at the earliest.
Conphas also thinks this about Proyas:
Quote from: TWP, Chapter 11
He could remember once--long ago it now seemed--thinking he and Proyas would become fast and famous friends over the course of the Holy War. They were both handsome. They were close in age.
Assuming "close in age" means something along the lines that Proyas was somewhere between 2 years older and 2 years younger than Conphas, taking Conphas' birth year (4084) into account, we'd have Proyas being born between 4082 and 4086. The overlap between this and the previous estimation leads me to conclude that Proyas was born in 4082 or 4083.

In TJE, Zsoronga tells Sorweel about the first time Kellhus' emissaries from the Three Seas arrived at his father's court:
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 10
"I was there," Zsoronga said, "when his first emissaries arrived in my father's court." He had the habit of making faces while he spoke, as though telling stories to a child. "I was only eight or nine at the time, I think, and I'm sure my eyes were as wide as oysters!"
The TUC glossary actually mentions when this took place:
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Unification Wars"
4125 - First of the Angnaya are sent to the Palace of Plumes in ZeŁm.
If Zsoronga was 8 or 9 years old in 4125, he'd have been born in 4116 or 4117 (I personally lean towards the former, as he gives the impression of being older than 15, but then again, he could look a bit older than his actual age).

Sorweel is mentioned as being 16 in the very first chapter of TJE (which takes place in the early spring of 4132):
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 1
"No, Father," he mumbled, suddenly feeling twig-thin--far younger than his sixteen years.
This would mean he was either born in 4115 (and would still turn 17 that year) or 4116 (had already turned 16 that year).
In TWLW, Sorweel reminisces about Grojehald, and we get another temporal reference:
Quote from: TWLW, Chapter 4
In his fourteenth winter, his father had brought him north on a punitive expedition to see their ancient and implacable enemy first-hand. Hoping to find supplies and accommodation, they had come to a Tower called Grojehald, only to find it sacked. The horrors he had seen there haunted his dreams still.
Grojehald is also mentioned in the TUC glossary:
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Grojehald"
Grojehald--Horselord Tower on the Sakarpic Pale, overrun by Sranc in the winter of 4129.
If we take "his fourteenth winter" to mean he turned 14 that year, that would mean he was indeed born in 4115.
By the early autumn of 4132, Sorweel seems to still be 16 years old:
Quote from: TUC, Chapter 6
"Your father ..." he said, expending a breath that made him feel far older than his sixteen summers, ancient even.
This makes it seem like Sorweel was born in late 4115 (later in the autumn or in winter).

With this, I've estimated a birth year for all characters I had planned to cover in this project. There might still be a Part IV if I find enough information that seems enough for further estimation of character birth (or death) years.

EDIT: Today I also went and cleaned up Parts I and II, correcting some mistakes, adding more specific quotes, making quotes more "presentable", etc. I also added the calculation of the "nameless one"'s birth/death year to Part II (as I felt it didn't really belong in Part III).

The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TDTCB, Chapter 7
« on: May 22, 2018, 10:37:53 pm »
1. Istryia is a SS, no doubt in my mind. Thelli has already quoted the passes. But, you can tell she favors the Holy War and going after Shimeh. After all, thats where all of the SS's are disappearing. That's the Consult's objective.

2. Here we find out that Skeaos has been trying to talk Xerius out of the Vulgar Holy War. Id say at this point he is a SS. Even in prior chapters, there has been references to the coarseness of his skin, etc, etc.

It all becomes so clear on a reread, there are tons of hints in the Xerius and Conphas POVs if you pay attention. And we still get at least that one about Conphas being surprised at SkeaŲs' agility before he is even confirmed as a skin-spy.

3. Conphas knows how to play Xerius. I live the passage where Xerius says that there is something dead inside Conphas, something smooth. I think this is what makes him immune to Kellhus. He believes he's a god, wholeheartedly. Its his greatest strength and ultimate downfall.

Oh, he sure does. That is a great passage, and something I definitely did not notice during my first read. I think you're right. Like I speculated in my comment, he's very DŻnyain-like, and he thinks very highly of himself and does not care about anyone else. That does help him resist Kellhus' manipulation. (I'm really looking forward to that epic speech Kellhus gives to Conphas when he dismisses him from the Holy War that basically sums him up perfectly. Sure, it's hypocritical coming from Kellhus of all people, but still great.)

ETA: I almost forgot. Xerius is no fool either. These are sound military plans to get what he wants...The Empire back. If not for a DŻnyain and a lonely, crazed Scylvendi.

He isn't, he is just very unlucky at who he gets as adversaries. Even the best plans come to ruin when DŻnyain are involved... And, of course, the wild card that was CnaiŁr.

The Unholy Consult / Re: Influences on TSA
« on: May 22, 2018, 09:09:36 pm »
Right, I mean, Bakker of course turns Abraham on his head in AngeshraŽl because, we are lead to believe, he did in fact sacrifice Oresh (which he may or may not have actually done).  AngeshraŽl is an interesting figure, because we know that the Tusk was not given by the Gods, which calls into question the whole story, really.  Who did he encounter then?

Sure, I used the word "analogues" there but I did not mean perfect parallels, of course. AngeshraŽl has been established since PON as Bakker's darker take on Abraham. Whether or not this did indeed happen we don't know, but I think that ultimately it doesn't matter in the long term. The seeds were sown in PON and the parallel was there all along.
Given the whole history with the Inchoroi's involvement in the Tusk, I'm guessing the "God" was Aurang. (Or maybe another Inchoroi? Can't recall if any others besides Aurang and Aurax were still around at the time AngeshraŽl supposedly lived.)

But the issue of Kellhus goes a bit deeper too.  Into the realm of the non-hypothetical "ImbKELalat" in this case.  Or it's reverse, whatever that would be called.  What if Kellhus did sacrifice Kel?

I think it could still be called the "Issue-of-Kel-if" since it's still the opposite of what actually happened (it's only that AngeshraŽl and Kellhus made opposite choices).
If Kellhus had sacrificed KelSammi (from what we as readers know), things would have much better for humanity as a whole in the long term. Assuming Kellhus or any other AnasŻrimbor wouldn't have activated the Carapace when inserted (as Bakker's AMA leads us to believe), the Ordeal would have still presumably suffered heavy losses, and Kellhus would have still died (as there'd be no KelSammi to stop the assassination at the Last Whelming). However, in this alternate timeline, the No-God does not rise (at least not for a long time), all the infants that are/will be stillborn due to its existence aren't, cities are not laid waste to, etc. Ultimately, thousands of lives are saved.
Esmenet would have hated Kellhus for it, true, but like I said above, Kellhus would probably have died anyway, and the net result would still be positive for mostly everyone.

And further, something that Bakker has alluded to extra-textually, but the role the Logos has in determining Kellhus failure.  I don't think it is suffient, to MSJ chagrin, to figure that love is all that kept Kellhus from killing Kel.  It's a lot more, because love of Esmenet was thrown to the wind before.  And his other children were ripe for sacrifice.  It could be that little Kel was all Esmenet "had left" in a sense, that he was her "favorite."  But I think it is deeper than than, that Kellhus' sense that all things were possible through the Logos that made him think he could win without that ultimate sacrifice (not Kel, but rather Esmenet's last bit of faith in him).

I don't think love is really in play here either. I tend to agree with the theory that Kellhus might have mistaken the rising darkness from the Ajokli possession for love for Esmenet, since he couldn't realize where it originated from (I admit he could have felt some vague fondness for her, but no more than that). He had every reason to kill KelSammi after he (apparently) killed an innocent Believer-King in cold blood, yet he did not. Maybe he felt that he was close enough to his goal that it wouldn't have mattered anyway if he had killed Kel or not. Maybe Ajokli's interference or the "love" he thought he felt led him to him making the wrong decision. I'm still quite unsure about his actual reasons.

Mostly hoping for MUTILATED POVs

So am I (just want to think on this for a bit more before casting my own votes).

That would fall under "other" because I only made individual options for characters who had already had POVs, but I think you got that. ;)

The Unholy Consult / Re: Influences on TSA
« on: May 22, 2018, 07:18:25 pm »
Nice little tidbit there!

It's amazing, what you can find when looking through the glossaries for content to add to the wiki pages! ;)

This is also great because it's like a double (or nested) parallel - Kellhus and KelSammi are parallels to AngeshraŽl and Oresh who are themselves parallels to Abraham and Isaac.

I though this would be a good idea, it occurred to me after creating the death predictions thread.
I'm still counting Malowebi as a possible returning POV because he still retained awareness after Kellhus died, meaning he could very well live on as a severed head.
I'm also assuming KelSammi (what I started calling the Kelmomas-with-Samarmas'-soul entity) will no longer be a POV as the No-God.
Also not counting the Omniscient POV because I want this poll to be character-based (and I assume no one would pick that one anyway).

The No-God / Re: Deaths in TNG
« on: May 22, 2018, 06:56:20 pm »
Bit of a drive-by post here, but I actually could see Achamian living all the way through the series and being one of the 144,000 thousand remaining souls on Earwa at the end...

Everyone else is probably toast though.

I 2nd this idea and find it likely, though I think Esme makes it too.

I think Esme will probably die, but I'm pretty certain Akka is going to make it. I think he's getting set up to be the next Seswatha, and Ses was a survivor of the first apocalypse. Akka's going to keep the gnosis alive and refound the mandate!

Okay, so I'm definitely in the minority so far, with only Old Gnostic Fool agreeing with my Akka death prediction.

And for Esmenet, it seems like MSJ is in the minority, since everyone else so far seems to agree she will die.

About the Akka and Seswatha parallels, this is my opinion: I think that the parallels already exist (and presumably will only get stronger as TNG goes on) and have been there since PON.
-are/were sorcerers who came from humble origins (Seswatha the son of a Trysean bronzesmith/Akka the son of a Nroni fisherman);
-became close to an AnasŻrimbor who eventually became a ruler (Celmomas, High-King of KŻniŁri/Kellhus, Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas), but the two later had a falling out (Celmomas resented Seswatha's influence on his son Nau-CayŻti and suspected he might even be Seswatha's biological son/Akka renounced Kellhus because of him "stealing" his wife Esmenet from him and due to learning the truth about the DŻnyain);
-had a romantic and sexual relationship with said AnasŻrimbor's wife (Celmomas' wife Suriala/Kellhus' wife Esmenet - though in this case the relationship with Akka happened before the relationship with Kellhus);
-had a student and surrogate son who met a tragic end due to the influence of the Consult (Nau-CayŻti/Inrau - and you can count Proyas as well in Akka's case, though more indirectly);
-interacted with a sorcerous artifact with led to them experiencing events in the life/memories of someone else (the Amiolas/Seswatha's Heart).
And that's just off the top of my head, there might be more I'm not remembering right now.
I can, however, actually see Akka dying right after managing to end the Second Apocalypse but surviving long enough to pass on the torch and the task of founding a new Mandate to someone else (Serwa?).

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