Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - TLEILAXU

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 33
Deathspell Omega - Wings of Predation
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Take heed therefore unto yourselves
Wherefore hidest thou thy face
In such a vain move of treason?
Rest assured
No veil in this autumnal world could conceal (neither protect)
from the shadows of the deathless Sun
The worm is spread under thee
I keep seeing similarities to Eärwa in their lyrics... This section could for example refer to the Nonmen's attempt at Elision.

General Earwa / Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
« on: March 21, 2018, 01:56:11 am »
I think the Boy has one or two sections from his POV at the end of TGO. Otherwise, it seems right to me. :)

Feel free to add them to the wiki whenever you want to, it definitely needs more work and all help is appreciated. ;)

I don't remember the Boy having a POV in TGO. I always thought it was Korringhus the whole way through, but I could be misremembering.
There's one when he's escaping from the Scylvendi and the thing impersonating Serwë.

General Earwa / Re: POV's in TGO/TUC
« on: March 21, 2018, 01:28:07 am »
Doesn't Psatma Nannaferi have some povs in TGO too? Or am I misremembering?

I think it stands to reason though that it would be the case for the nature of the Outside-Inside relationship to be different for placed besides Eärwa.  If it wasn't, how did the Progenitors get so far but not realize the Outside was real?  It seems very unlikely that the gods can function the same everywhere else, when we know that Eärwa is the exception.
Realizing damnation exists is hard when supernatural phenomena aren't beating you over the head every day. They had mastered everything when they realized that there was something orthogonal to the real going on. But in the end, as Emilidis made sorcerous artifacts without the mark, they managed to create technology interlinked with the Outside. Again, the fundamental premise of the story is that Gods are real, and as such they can act any way they please. Recall what Bakker says in the quote about the Dreaming God. In anarcane places, the God dreams lucidly, making co-opting his songs hard if not impossible. I.e. God is in some sense more "aware" here and you cannot sing fire out of thin air, but you can get sent to the pit for sure.

The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
« on: March 19, 2018, 10:51:53 pm »
Ugh, time paradoxes... oh well, it ain't much worse than "Ajokli caused it all" or "Kellhus will remove the Consult and Damnation and everything will be happy everafter"  :)

I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?
Thank you, I'm aware of those things, this is where my theory comes from. P-zombie is basically a human that lacks some undefined quality that makes us human. P-zombie can perfectly imitate a human being while not being one. I consider the No-God to be the same concept, only applied to the Gods.

In this sense, the nature of consciousness is not even explored. Whatever it is, the No-God possesses the opposite of it, non-consciousness. What I think would happen after the world is reduced to the blessed 144k is the context of the Outside is going to be changed. Remade to be governed by a non-conscious entity (the No-God) instead of conscious ones (the Gods). The No-God cannot perceive itself, so its dominion over the Heavens and the Hells would be an empty one; it cannot eat anything, because it cannot add to what it can't see. Damnation and salvation are thus ruled out, leaving only Oblivion.

Seems more or less internally consistent. I also like how absolutely irrelevant it is to the actual story. Men of Earwa are truly in Crash Space, they have no idea why what happens around them happens. They don't understand it, they can't analyze it rationally, they can only react in the ways available to them, and those ways are spectacularly inadequate for the problems Earwa presents. I feel it illustrates Bakker's point perfectly.
I'd say it's the other way around. Those "metacognitive heuristics" are adept in the Earwan situation precisely because meaning/metaphysics are real things. It is the Ark/No-God that presents the crash-space.

Quote from:  Wilshire
don't get this part though.

Why? Why don't you get this. If Gods do exist in our world/UNIVERSE, there is no connection here, same as with the Inchoroi's home planet. Its not that hard to comprehend. The progenitors delved too deep, created a looking glass into hell. Something, in sure many of the scientists around here would be ecstatic for. Maybe not their damnation, yet again, who knows what Mimara or Esme would see looking at the IF.
If there's no connection you cannot be damned. Arcane/anarcane has something to do with whether God is "dreaming lucidly" in that particular place. Again, as has been said, the premise of the story is that Gods/meaning are real in this universe, unlike in our universe (from the perspective of Bakker). 

I might post something more substantial later, but for now...

Check out these excerpts from the discussion between Shae and Titirga in The False Sun. They are surely relevant to the argument about what, if anything, Ajokli had to do with the Inverse Fire:

“So that is the source of your madness,” Titirga said. “The Inverse Fire.”


“I know only what Nil’giccas told me. That Misariccas and Runidil returned shrieking–”

Yes. Shaeönanra had also shrieked… for a time. And wept.

“–and that Cet’ingira counselled his King to have them killed.”

A barking laugh. “And did he tell you why?”

A moment of fierce scrutiny.

“Because they could not be trusted. Because they had been ensorceled… Possessed.

“No!” Shaeönanra heard himself cry. “No!” Could this be him, wagging his head like a fly-maddened ox, gesticulating like an old hag at funeral? “Because they had seen the Truth!”

Titirga gazed with undisguised distaste. “Such is the form of all possession. You know as mu–”


“Possessed, you tell yourselves. Possessed! We are different because we are no longer ourselves. You counsel the All-King to crack our Seal, destroy us and all we have toiled to achieve. Our Voices are polluted, unclean!” He threw his back in Feal laughter, cackled with spite and glee. “So tell me , if we are possessed, who is our new owner?”

“The Tekne,” the Archidemu Sohoncu said with grim confidence. “The Mangaecca have been enslaved. You have been enslaved.”

Shaeönanra blinked. Of course the fool was unmoved. Of course he had his reasons. No matter. This was indulgence, arguing like this, availing reason.

He warred with his expression–something between a grimace and a grin.”Yes… But who is our new master?

A peculiar weariness haunted Titirga as he shook his maned head: one not so much of as for.

Feal, something whispered from his gaze.

A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”

Aurang had stood silent during this time, gazing down at the two bickering men. After the intimacies they had shared, it seemed Shaeönanra could sense the pulse of his passion. Lust in the lazy tumescence of his member. Impatience in the incline of his shield-long head. Hatred in the flicker of membranes…

“Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”

Tedious. Tedious. Tedious.

“Why, Titirga?” Shaeönanra implored. “Why have you come here?” He shook his head, arguing with the floor. “Did you hope to show me my folly?” And it all seemed a pantomime, this incontinence of voice and expression. For beneath, he knew exactly what he needed to do. He could feel it, the certainty of snakes coiled in the darkness, the confidence of things that neither run nor sleep.”There’s no folly in what I do, I assure you. I know. I have seen!” He jerked his face back, squinting and scowling. “What are your reasons compared to this? Your guesses? Your rumours of a dead age?”

“But what, Shaeönanra? What is it you have seen? Your damnation or your goad?”

Very nice catch. Definitely sounds like a foreshadowing of Ajokli's take over, but it can also refer to the No-God which for example has been called "Angel of Endless Hunger" (extremely fucking metal). I wouldn't be surprised if this ambiguity is very much intended by Bakker.

Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?

Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?

Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.

I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.

So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".

It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.
Exactly. As Bakker says,
A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly unconscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside.
The metaphysics of how exactly this god functions, are of course very far from clear.

The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.

Because damnation doesn't come from the gods, it comes from the Cubit.

They are not visible because the Eärwan gods are (seemingly) not universal, even if the Outside and the Cubit are.  It's not clear if this means that the gods are "locked out" from other places, because they are anarcane, or what though.  They've issued forth from the void, seemingly divorced from what the 100 can see.  But perhaps the issue is the 100 and the sundering of the God of gods though...
The Inchoroi and the Ark are visible, but the meaning of the Ark is not visible (because it has none?). The way I see it, the Ark is like a Sranc. The Gods can see it, but it's just another element of the real to them, like a rock or a waterfall. The No-God is the ultimate manifestation of this physicality. The Gods can see the Inchoroi and the sins heaped upon them, but cannot see their mission.

See this post
Read it way before even making my first post on this forum. But thank you for the quote!

I took it to mean that the No-God with an Insertant is an ad-hoc solution to replace a function of the irreparably damaged Ark.
Pretty sure it refers to the No-God (because that is what H is talking about, cue Bakker's response), i.e. having lost the original store of Insertants (circuits), they were forced to rummage through the world to find a suitable replacement.

I have found Bakker's quote about an original Insertant.

This is how the question was formulated:
Quote from:
Was Nau-Cayuti fundamentally flawed in the way that Kelmomas was, or am I reading too much into similarities between them?

This is how the answer looks like:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

The way I read it myself, Bakker is referring to Nau-Cayuti as "an original Insertant" because the question compares Kelmomas with him. Though I do see how it can be read as referring to some unknown original Insertant who both Kelmomas and Nau-Cayuti are able to successfully emulate. I don't see how either of those readings can be shown as the only correct one with the information we have available at this point.
See this post

What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial.
Its fine if making fun of me helps you feel better about yourself, but ... Can you even make arguments without personal insults, or is that just anathema to your core being? Geez.  :( :-\ :'(
Actually my thought process was more like I had to insult you to not be too harsh on MSJ (not because of preferential treatment but to help him see the wrongness of his argument). Not sure if it makes sense.

Quote from:  SmilerLoki
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

No, SL, the entire universe is not meaningful. We know this through the countless planets the Inchoroi destroyed. That the Inchoroi home planet was meaningless, no sorcery and such.

Their goal was to find a meaningful world. One that they could live on, shut themselves off from hell and live forever. I have no clue how you come to that conclusion. Look, always in for a a good conversation. But, a lot I've heard in this thread has never been mentioned til now. We can't just go creating new rules.
What the fuck man? This is Wilshire tier denial. The goal of the Inchoroi is to SHUT the Outside to prevent their souls from being damned, for which they must for some reason cleanse the "promised world". For some reason, perhaps because it's almost entirely arcane, Eärwa is this world. Being meaningful has nothing to do with sorcery, that depends on whether the God dreams lucidly in this place (see e.g. ).

Quote from:  TLEILAXU
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

Where do you get this from. If the Gods don nor interact with their world, no sorcery, then it is meaningless. Know idea where you got this idea.
The explanation is in the post you quoted. The universe is meaningful, Gods, souls and Damnation are objectively and demonstrably real in this universe, that is why the Inchoroi set out on their quest for shutting off the Outside. This is the premise of the story.

You've read it wrong. And we have tons of evidence to the contrary. The 2 Inchoroi and a few human sorcerers found the NG. Figured out how it worked. Oh, added some chorale to it for defense against magic (which correct me if I'm wrong, Wilshire said the NG was magical), then Aurang knew it needed a inerrant. So, they start tossing in people, until one works, Nayu. Not the original. The Ark was an entity unto its own self. The Inchoroi called it mother. It didn't need a human to run on. Or, to sustain itself. No magic. All tekne.
My interpretation is, they found some knowledge (written or stored in some kind of Tekne device), which included the plans to the No-God, then created or found (can go both ways) the Sarcophagus without possessing the full understanding of its workings. For some reason they decided that a soul must power it. Might have been in the plans, might have been part of their ad-hoc solution. Long story short, they were right and after many tries it worked.
Bakker states that explicitly that the reason that Nau Cayuti could be used was because his brain structure emulated that of the original insertant, which means that the No-God had insertants in previous incarnations. The supply of insertants and probably also a great deal of knowledge about how to activate the No-God was lost during Arkfall.

But, here's my question Wilshire. How do you propose Ajokli going to a meaningless world and giving the progenitors the IF? As you said their world is meaningless and so is the IF. Its technological. For Ajokli to do that, there had to be a link to their world. We know that's not the case. How do you square that. That's the crux of your argument.
The Inchoroi homeworld is not meaningless lol. The whole universe is meaningful in this story, that's the fundamental premise. Gods and souls are as real in an anarcane place as they are in an arcane place. Anarcane and arcane refer to sorcery, i.e. "co-opting" the song of the God of Gods. God dreams lucidly in anarcane places, so sorcery becomes impossible.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 33