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Messages - TheCulminatingApe

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1
The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 21, 2019, 07:41:05 pm »
But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.

Kelmomas popping up and 'getting rid' of Ajokli, certainly seem to have thrown him.  As per my earlier post, he seems to have lost control of events at this point.  His attempts to condition the ground inside the Ark don't seem to have worked out - or have been rendered impotent by the unforeseen circumstances of Kelmomas being the No-God.

2
The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 21, 2019, 06:54:26 pm »
He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.

Kellhus has surely left conditioned ground behind.  He has rewritten Scripture, and is surely going to be seen as some sort of holy figure in the Three Seas. The Akka/ Mimara plotline seems like a set-up.  He also sent the Ciphrang off to Zeum.  He's taken virtually the entire military and sorcerous leadership of the Three Seas and must have known that a huge proportion would die on the Ordeal.

Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that ;).

He certainly does appear to enact his vision of what Meonghus woudl do.
Kellhus' thoughts in TTT are:
"For the Dunyain it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought:  The Warrior-Prophet's assassination.  The rise of Anasurimbor Moenghus to take his place.  The apocalyptic conspiracies.  The counterfeit war against Golgotterath.  The accumulation of premeditated disasters.  The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc.  The Three Seas cashing into char and ruin.
The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate
".

Going by the events of TAE, we can only conclude that Kellhus either has planned past defeat at Golgotterath - or that his plan was to bring Ajokli into the World as stated in TUC, in which case he failed.  I would guess the former (especially given his comments to Proyas).

But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.

3
The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 21, 2019, 06:37:31 pm »
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.

That's a good spot re Skauras.

What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

Ajokli being 'exorcised' does lead directly to Kellhus' death.  He is at best surprised by Kelmomas being there, and cannot deal with the skin-spies (and perhaps may be over-matched by four Dunyain and a large number of skin-spies in any case).  Kellhus has lost the advantage that he got from being possessed by a God.  He has arguably lost any choice as to the outcome of events.

4
This is how I see it as well - though you introduce what seems to me a really interesting point. The Gnosis has so much power within the "mundane" part of reality, the "Inside", because that aspect of God's dreaming is cogent/ordered and aligns well with God's rational and thus mathematical aspect.

Or did I misunderstand?

I'd say the Gnosis works with (or on) objective reality, rather than with subjective perceptions of reality. 

5
Makes me wonder if there's more to Anagogis - I always wonder if there really is a Gnostic Daimos, given that it seems to me the Outside would fall beyond the remit of the precise description the Gnosis offers. Seems to me anything of the Outside (which is Inside in some sense iirc?) can only be grasped/leashed by way of analogy, in the way an engineer can master the external but it takes a poet to try and make a leap into the Abyss of the Internal toward the indirectly approachable but never achievable Zero-Person view....

It could be that the theorems of the gnosis just can't accurately describe Godlings from the Outside, similar to how science can't really explain why kids love cinnamon crunch.

If the Outside is the place where 'circumstances yield more and more to desire', and where the more more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub-realities" that conform to their desires' (both quotes from TUC Glossary), then it would seem to be difficult to be able for the Gnosis to 'say' anything abstract about it.  You can have an abstract desire (eg happiness), but what represents that desire will inevitably vary from individual to individual - if you are to conjure happiness, that must relate to your subjective desire (i.e. what makes you happy).  Equally if you are going to summon a Ciphrang, you must surely be summoning the individual Ciphrang in question, and not an abstract concept. 

6
from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretation_of_the_Bible
Quote
Anagogic interpretation: dealing with the future events of Christian history (eschatology) as well as heaven, purgatory, hell, the last judgement, the General Resurrection and second Advent of Christ, etc. (prophecies)...

The literal teaches what God and our ancestors did,
The allegory is where our faith and belief is hid,
The moral meaning gives us the rule of daily life,
The anagogy shows us where we end our strife

Heaven, hell judgement, resurrection and eschatology seem well in keeping with the subject matter of TSA.

From Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagogic
Quote
anagogic or anagogical

adjective
of or relating to an anagoge.
Psychology . deriving from, pertaining to, or reflecting the moral or idealistic striving of the unconscious: anagogic image; anagogic interpretation

and https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anagoge
Quote
anagoge or anagogy
noun
a spiritual interpretation or application of words, as of Scriptures.
a form of allegorical interpretation of Scripture that seeks hidden meanings regarding the future life

From encyclopedia.com https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/psychology/psychology-and-psychiatry/anagogical-interpretation
Quote
ANAGOGICAL INTERPRETATION

The idea of "anagogical interpretation"—a kind of interpretation which moves, according to the Robert dictionary, "from a literal to a mystical meaning"—derives from theology. An anagoge is a mystical interpretation that implies spiritual elevation, convergence towards a universal symbolic meaning, and an ecstatic feeling. The notion was promoted by Herbert Silberer, author of Hidden Symbolism of Alchemy and the Occult Arts (1914/1971).

Anagogical interpretation relates to the "functional phenomenon" that Silberer defined on the basis of his observation of hypnagogic processes. Silberer described three levels of symbolization: somatic, material, and functional. The "functional phenomenon" pertains to the capacity for symbolic generalization: it facilitates the shift from "material" symbolization of the particular contents of thought to a general symbolization, in images, affects, tendencies, intentions, and complexes that reflect the structure of the psyche.

In psychoanalytic treatment, anagogical interpretation aims at strengthening the tendency to form more and more universal symbols, whose ethical value is also reinforced. Silberer claimed that the functional phenomena were bolstered in the course of an analysis.

This idea of interpretation as a generalizing idealization in the here and now is at odds with the Freudian conception based on the personal dimension, the erogenous zones, and deferred action. Freud recognized the utility of Silberer's hypotheses for explaining the formation of ideas and the dramatic character of dreams, but he criticized his extension of it to the technique of interpretation (as did Ernest Jones, who likened Silberer's approach to Jung's). Freud further rebuked Silberer for falling prey to the defense mechanisms of rationalization and reaction-formation.

From Oxford Reference http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095410410
Quote
In psychoanalysis, a mode of interpretation of dreams, myths, and other symbolic representations in order to reveal their higher allegorical or spiritual meaning. It is considered to be the opposite of ordinary analytic interpretation, which on the contrary reduces such material to its basic and often sexual content. Carl Gustav Jung (1875–1961) incorporated anagogic interpretation into his analytical psychology, but Sigmund Freud (1856–1939) rejected it as merely a reversion to pre-analytic notions (‘Dreams and Telepathy’, 1922, Standard Edition, XVIII, pp. 197–220, at p. 216). [From Greek anagoge a lifting up, from ana up + agein to lead]

Do Akka's Dreams therefore have a meaning over and above recollections of the Apocalypse?  And does the fact they the Dreams change, reflect changes in the Outside (presumably Kellhus up to something)?

7
General Earwa / Cants of Compulsion
« on: March 31, 2019, 07:01:06 pm »
Much is made in PON of the Cants of Compulsion, of how they enable the sorceror to possess the 'self' of another, blurring the distinction between the two.  The victims (as per Ch 6 TTT) in 'no way feel compelled', whilst others may control their words and actions, they nevertheless 'choose' to say or do.

We also see at the end of TTT what Kellhus can achieve by adding a second inutteral to a Cant of Calling - essentially turning telepathy into teleportation.  The implication for TAE is what therefore happens when he adds a second inutteral to a Cant of Compulsion (which he must surely have done)?  Is this the process by which he can physically move souls from body to body- i.e. the head swapping?

8
General Earwa / Inri Sejenus
« on: March 31, 2019, 06:26:37 pm »
We never learn much about Inri Sejenus, do we?  Which seems a little bit suspicious given that he's the series Jesus-analogue.

The Glossaries state that he was born c.2159 (note the c. - therefore his birth is ambiguous).  This is only four years after the defeat of the No-God at Mengedda (and could be less if he was born earlier), and overlaps with the life of Seswatha, who doesn't die until 2168.

Is Sejenus therefore a byproduct of the First Apocalypse - i.e. has his mission been imparted to him by a significant survivor/survivors/protagonist, or is he a totally independent occurrence?  We know he reinterprets the Tusk, and we also know that the Consult were responsible for 'editing' the Tusk prior to the Breaking of the Gates.  What's going on?

Inri also sounds similar to Inrau - which could just be coincidence, but Inrau does seem to have a 'holier' quality than the other characters.  A thematic link?

9
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 17
« on: March 24, 2019, 06:40:57 pm »
Quote
So the hollow could not be shut.  Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew would ever shed.  He would be heartless now. A perfect man.

Quote
"Gasps and sputters filled the galleries of the First Temple.  He waited for the uproar to subside, staring for what seemed an unblinking eternity at the otherworldly aspect of Anasurimbor Kellhus.  His last student.
Somehow his gaze found Proyas, who looked so... aged with his beard squared.  There was prayer in his handsome brown eyes, the promise of return.  But it was far too late.

Heartless, perfect man - that's what Cnaiur tried to be.  But Akka is all about heart.

10
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 17
« on: March 24, 2019, 06:35:40 pm »
Quote
Into a golden labyrinth of horrors more vast than any Nonmen Mansion, where a student, who was more a son, gazed at him with horror and incredulity.  A Kuniuric Prince, just beginning to fathom his surrogate father's betrayal.
"She's dead!" Seswatha shouted as much at the unbearable expression as at the man.  "She's gone to you now!  And if she lives, then what you find you will not keep, no matter how deep you think your passion!"
"But you said", Nau-Cayuti cried, his brave face broken in grief.  "You said!"
"I lied".
"How?  How could you do this?  You were the only one, Sessa!  The only one!
"Because I couldn't succeed", Achamian said. "Not alone.  Because what we do here is more important than truth or love".
Nau-Cayuti's eyes gleamed like bared teeth in the gloom. This, Seswatha knew, was the look that had sealed the final heartbeat of so very many - Man and Sranc alike.
"And what do we do here, old teacher?  Pray tell".
"We search," Achamian murmured.  "We search for the Heron Spear".

This relationship is inverted by events later in the Chapter - student betrays teacher.

11
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 17
« on: March 24, 2019, 06:30:52 pm »
Anaxophus repeats the words of the No-God.  He won't take up the Heron Spear.
Quote
This isn't how it happens.

False Dreams?  What's going on?

12
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 17
« on: March 24, 2019, 03:07:17 pm »
Achamian is being carried across the sky by Zioz.

And then he wakes, at the sea shore.

Then he is - presumably asleep again - in Golgotterath.
Quote
Into a golden labyrinth of horrors more vast than any Nonmen Mansion, where a student, who was more a son, gazed at him with horror and incredulity.  A Kuniuric Prince, just beginning to fathom his surrogate father's betrayal.
"She's dead!" Seswatha shouted as much at the unbearable expression as at the man.  "She's gone to you now!  And if she lives, then what you find you will not keep, no matter how deep you think your passion!"
"But you said", Nau-Cayuti cried, his brave face broken in grief.  "You said!"
"I lied".
"How?  How could you do this?  You were the only one, Sessa!  The only one!
"Because I couldn't succeed", Achamian said. "Not alone.  Because what we do here is more important than truth or love".
Nau-Cayuti's eyes gleamed like bared teeth in the gloom. This, Seswatha knew, was the look that had sealed the final heartbeat of so very many - Man and Sranc alike.
"And what do we do here, old teacher?  Pray tell".
"We search," Achamian murmured.  "We search for the Heron Spear".

He is woken by a little girl.

For days he is tended by a woman and her daughter.  When his fevers break, he dreams.
Quote
For years now, and inexplicable sense of doom had hung upon the horizon, a horror that had no form, only direction...  All men could feel it.  And all Men knew that it bore responsibility for their stillborn sons, that it had broken the great cycle of souls.
Now at last they could see it - the bone that would gag Creation.
Bashrag beat the ground with their great hammers, while Sranc heaved in imbecile masses.  They swallowed the surrounding plains, loping in armour of tanned human skin, gibbering like apes, throwing themselves at the ramparts the Men of Kyraneas had made of Mengedda's ruins.  And behind them, the whirlwind... a great winding rope sucking the dun earth into black heavens, elemental and indifferent, roaring ever nearer, come to snuff out the last light of Men.
Come to seal the World shut.
The storm clouds firmed their grip on the sun, and all became twilight and thunder.  Clutching their groins, the Sranc fell to their knees, heedless of the mannish swords that fell upon them.  Then, through the snarling mouths of its children, Seswatha heard it, the million-throated voice of Tsurumah, the No-God...
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
"What," Anaxophus said, "do you see?"

Anaxophus repeats the words of the No-God.  He won't take up the Heron Spear.
Quote
This isn't how it happens.

Achamian awakes and cries out.  The woman's husband comes in and hits him.  He leaves and heads towards Shimeh.  There is something wrong with his leg.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He is wrapped in a blanket, which is tied with rotted rope.  He has a staff of sea-worn wood.

He wanders through the remnants of the Holy War's encampment and the battlefield, and passes into the city.  He notes a Scarlet Schoolmen, turned to salt.  He see no one for a long time.  Two Conriyans shout 'truth shines' at him - he spits on them.

There are crowds in the First Temple. They make way for him.

Quote
Then he heard stern proclamations, the kind that made so many shiver with awe.  And he recognised the voice of Maithanet, the Holy Shriah of the Thousand Temples.  He could almost glimpse him through the concentric forest of pillars.
"Arise, Anasurimbor Kellhus, for all authority now resides in thee..."
A moment of silence, sullied by the gentle sound of weeping.
"Behold, the Warrior-Prophet!" the obscured Shriah bellowed.  "Behold, the High King of Kuniuri!"
"Behold, the Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas!"
The words winded Achamian as surely as a father's blow. While the Men of teh Tusk leapt to their feet, crying out in rapture and adulation, he staggered against one of the white pillars, feeling the cool of engraved figures pressed against his cheek.
What was this hollow that had so consumed him?  What was this yearning that felt like mourning?
They make us love!  They make us love!

Kellhus addresses the throng
Quote
"With me", Kellhus declared, "everything is rewritten. Your books, your parables, and your prayers, all that was your custom, are now nothing more than childhood curiosities.  For too long had Truth languished in the vulgar hearts of Men.  What you call tradition is naught but artifice, the fruit of your vanity, of your lust, of your fear and your hate.
With me, all souls shall find a more honest footing.  With me, all the world is born anew!"
Year One.

Achamian limps forward.
Quote
..."Th old world is dead!" he cried out.  "Is this what you say, Prophet?"

He sees Maithanet, Proyas, Saubon, the Lords of the Holy War, the Nascenti, and the Mandate.  He sees Esmenet.  He doesn't see Serwe, Cnaiur or Conphas.
Quote
But he saw Kellhus, sitting leonine before a great hanging Cicumfix of white and gold, his hair flashing about his shoulders, his flaxen beard plaited.  He saw him drawing the nets of the future, just as the Scylvendi had said, measuring, theorising, categorising, penetrating...
He saw the Dunyain.

Kellhus asks him to take his pace at his side.  But Akka has come for his wife and nothing more.

She refuses
Quote
"Esmi", Achamian said, his eyes and outstretched hand directed only at her.  "Please..."
This was the only thing that could mean anymore.
"Akka", she sobbed.  She glanced about, seemed to wilt beneath the rat gazes that encircled them.  "I'm the mother of... of..."
So the hollow could not be shut.  Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew would ever shed.  He would be heartless now. A perfect man.
Sh approached him - with longing, yes, but with wariness and horror as well.  She clutched the hand he had held out, the that did not lean against his staff. "The world, Akka.  Don't you see?  The very world hangs in the balance!"
What will it be the next time I die?
With a savagery that both thrilled and frightened him, he snatched her left wrist, twisted and bent it back, so that she could see the blurred tattoo that blackened the back of her hand.  He thrust her away from him

Quote
"I renounce!" Achamian roared, sweeping his scathing gaze across all assembled.  "I renounce my station as Holy Tutor, as Vizier to the court of the Anasurimbor Kellhus!"  He glanced at Nautzera, not caring whether the old man sneered or no.
"I renounce my School! he continued.  "As an assembly of hypocrites and murderers".
"Then you sentence yourself to death!" Nautzera cried.  "There's no sorcery outside the Schools!  There are no-"
"I renounce my Prophet!"
Gasps and sputters filled the galleries of the First Temple.  He waited for the uproar to subside, staring for what seemed an unblinking eternity at the otherworldly aspect of Anasurimbor Kellhus.  His last student.
Somehow his gaze found Proyas, who looked so... aged with his beard squared.  There was prayer in his handsome brown eyes, the promise of return.  Bit it was far too late.
"And I renounce..."  He trailed, warred with errant passions.  "I renounce my wife".
His eyes fell upon Esmenet, stricken upon the floor.  My wife!
"Noooo, she wept and whispered.  "Pleeaase, Akka..."
"As an adulteress," he continued, his voice cracking, "and a... a..."

He turns and walks away.  Men fall away at his approach.

Quote
Then, through the sound of Esmenet weeping...
"Achamian!
Kellhus.  Achamian did not condescend to turn, but he did pause.  It seemed the future itself leaned inscrutable against him, a yoke about his neck, a spear point against his spine...
"The next time you come before me", the Aspect-Emperor said, his voice cavernous, ringing with inhuman resonance,  "you will kneel, Drusas Achamian".
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.




13
The Almanac: PON Edition / ARC: TTT Encyclopedic Glossary
« on: March 24, 2019, 02:07:09 pm »
If anybody want's to comment on or discuss the Glossary, then feel free.

14
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 16
« on: March 21, 2019, 09:32:34 pm »
As the sun sets, a small boy is hunched over a shattered white figure, chipping salt away.  A bid with a human head appears
Quote
”Would you like to know a secret?” A thin voice cooed. The miniature face grinned, as though finding unexpected pleasure in playing a half-hearted game.
Too numb to be terrified, the young boy nodded, clutched tight the salt that would be his fortune.
“Come closer”

I don't think we ever find out what this is all about, do we?  What is the secret?

15
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TTT Chapter 16
« on: March 21, 2019, 09:28:07 pm »
The Men of the Tusk are enveloped by Fanim all along the length of the aqueduct outside Shimeh.  The Shrial Knights charge – they have conviction and fury, but not numbers.  Gotian falls as the Knights sign hymns.

Then the Nansur arrive from the west.  The Inrithi cheer.  So do the Fanim – they think allies are here, but some notice unexpected banners.
Quote
This wasn't the treachery of an Emperor – an Ikurei – come to seal a pact with their Padirajah.  The hated standard of the Exalt-General, with its distinctive Kyranean disc, was nowhere to be seen.
No.  This wasn't Ikurei Conphas.  It was the Blond Beast...
King Saubon.

The Fanim withdraw.  The Holy War follows.
Quote
Horse and man thrashed black in descending fire

Another Tolkien reference?  The Pelennor Fields - specifically the arrival of the 'corsair ships'

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