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Messages - Jabberwock03

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1
The Unholy Consult / Re: Another (perhaps) simple question
« on: June 27, 2018, 08:17:22 pm »
Wait, is that Blindsight? Amazing book.
I just started reading blindsight right now. Fkin amazing.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

Watts for Scifi and Bakker for Fantasy are my current two favorite authors!
Hard to read anything from anyone else these days.

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I would love to have an unique point of view in writing style. Something weird like the No-God (p-zombie) or Ajokli (timeless) POV.
Also I want Malowebi and Kellhus POV (whatever they have become) !

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: June 14, 2018, 06:29:55 pm »
I see the thread derailed a little, but to answer OP :

I think intention is the main cause for her Ciphrang condition.

Because she is Dunyain, she is damned by default. Then she use metagnostic which damn her even more.
So that's already huge for the damnation part.

But, in contrary to her father, she is part Esme/human and have a heart (she does actually love). Where Kellhus is like a robot, and do horrible stuff but with no intentions (it's just the shortest path), she have to mean all the horrible stuffs she does. And that's why she is view as a deamon and not just damned... damned a lot!
Plus I tend to think that the mere possibility of what she's capable of is enough to "Ciphrangize" her even more. Like she knows she is capable of, let's say, killing an entire country to achieve her ends ; and as she has to intend it to happens...

And that would explain why Kosoter or Cna´ur are viewed as Ciphrang too (they will to do bad). But Nil'Giccas is just damned because he kind of is a good guy (non-guy?) but practiced sooooo much sorcery.

tl;dr
Good guy doing bad stuff/sorcery ==> damned
Bad guy doing bad stuff (with or without sorcery) ==> Ciphrang
Special mention to Kellhus: Neither good or bad, just acting zombie following circumstances ==> who knows?

4
It might be that anarcane grounds stop the divine. My theory is, the No-God is an entity of the Outside, an inverse, non-conscious God. This way it just can't operate on anarcane grounds.
I don't understand, intellectually, the discussion surrounding consciousness very well (as a general rule it seems), but also specifically in regards to the No-God.

That said, Bakker has called the No-God a p-zombie (whatever that is), but also said in his podcast with Stuff to Blow Your Mind that the Gods were something like what a physical manifestations of our own subconscious ... or something like that. Neither description does me much good lol, but I thought you might find it helpful?

Like a chat-bot, but much more complex. It can interact, take decision, and you can't say if it's a real person or not, but it doesn't have any self-awareness.
You take inputs, you process it, you send output.

In the other hand, the gods are all self-awarness, so much that they can create their own reality (hell/heaven), if I get it right.

5
Oops, clicked the 'modify' button on a post other than my. Sorry H!

For clarity, this is what I meant to add to the bottom of my last post:
That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
I don't think I, or anyone, is contesting those points.

- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you
I don't get this part though.
Either its so weak the humans/gods cant interact, or its not that weak and there is some interaction. That interaction is what allows the IF.

Seems unlikely that the IF is an exception to the rule: the rule that stops humans/mundane-creatures from access to the Outside without magic. So the proginators built the soggomatic ring and covered it with suspiciously runic circuitry - and Ajokli flipped the magic switch on when they pressed 'go'.



Weak enough so that the only thing that happens is soul related (being born with a soul, being subject to judgement and therefore damnation) and the IF just observe this (as if you would observe a distant star but can't change its orbit). The gods can't do crazy stuffs like Yatwer geting out of the ground all muddy and distributing choraes.
But that's only my interpretation.

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Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.
No, no, I find your logic quite sound, I just wanted to outline some things I consider important, which was made possible by your posts.

I actually have I completely different theory about why the Gods don't, presumably (it is my presumption, too), appear to the Progenitors and quite possibly to Nonmen, also. At least not in the same capacity as they appear to Men in. I think the Gods of TSA are exclusively the Gods of Men, and so have no love for anyone else.

That's why I'm a tremendous fan of everything that happened in Ishterebinth, it offers so much insight into Nonmen religion or what passes for it.

Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.

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What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.
I do not feel we can make this leap of logic with the information available. The connection exists and can be accessed. It is accessed by the Inverse Fire. Presuming that there is no potential way to use that connection for something else, like influencing the Outside in some way, is much more than I'm comfortable doing.

Granted, it might have been the case for the Progenitors, in the sense that all they could achieve was looking into the Outside. But in my eyes it's a technological limitation that says nothing about the actual scope of possibilities.

Well, we know that you can't do magic on Anarcane ground and that the world of the Progenitors is anarcane. And we know that the Progenitors weren't aware of anything metaphysical before the IF.
The gods flavor their souls-snacks with worshiping, so I think if they could have made the Progenitors worship them by showing up as they do in Earwa, they would have.

So I think it's safe to say that the interaction between the outside and the reality on the Progenitors world is not that great. And it would make sens that the Progenitors would have thought about all possible way of doing something about the outside from home, before sending a big ship with living weapon to rampage planets hoping to close the outside.

Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.

8
Or did I understood you wrong?
My issue is with the "read-only" part of your views. What I mean by a connection is a possibility of interaction that goes invariably both ways.

For it to be different, something needs to not be a part of the system of reality and at the same time influence that system, which is a paradox.

What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.

9
That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you

Or did I understood you wrong?

10
No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.
By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?

I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.

I think there is a difference between the connection of souls to the outside, which is a physical/metaphysical property of Earwa universe; and the fact that Earwa planet is deeply connected, partly merged, to the outside through arcane ground and topoi.

So, for me, all the universe is connected to the outside (but they can't interact with each other), and only (as far as we know) Earwa is somehow a little merged with the outside (magic is possible and the gods have more power on it).

And as I said, the IF could observe the outside, with tekne only and on anarcane groud, by finding the link between reality/outside through souls. And it make sens it would be a read-only device as there is no "merging (arcane)" on their home planet.

11
Its confusing to me. If anything without a soul is invisible, what do they even see?

Just nebulous pinpricks of light floating in voids? Like a picture from space of the dark side of Earth, but instead of lights they see souls?

Kellhus/Ajokli stops the Chorae-equipped skinspies so he knows they are something more than a rock or a waterfall.
And the opposite also happens, when Cnaiur/Ajokli/Gilgaol? goes to face the Whirlwind the Sranc make way for him, as if sensing that you do not f*ck with this guy.

I think gods see the world, but can only "comprehend/anticipate/can't put a word on it", intentions from soul based beings like humans, nonmen, Inchoroi.

So they can see the Srancs and the skinspies as if they were wolves or tigers; they are biologicals being moving and doing stuffs but with no real intentions/free will, they obey their master or their instinct.
But the No-God is a mechanical thing, little more than a piece of rock and metal, with much intentions and no soul. So the gods can "see" that their is a big piece of rock in that windy sky, but they can't perceive/understand his intentions, can't anticipate what it wanna do. And so it's not even that it doesn't make sens to them, but they completely ignore him as they can't even start to imagine that something like that exist. And in the end they are like "Hmmmm windy weither... by the way all babies are still born... well, shit happens".

It seems kinda dumb from an human perspective, but they are gods who think differently than humans and in a timeless way. It make sens to me that they don't see the No-God.
So, they see the world just fine as we do, but process it in another way than we do.

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If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.
If we knew anything about anarcane ground, I'd speculate one way or the other, but that's more of a mystery than anything else.

I'll agree that if no sorcery of any kind, no magic, no gods, no aporetic sorcery, nothing at all of that nature, 'works' on anarcane ground, then neither would the IF.

I don't agree with that premise, but if that's your starting conditions, then there's nothing further to speculate.

Isn't it precisely the reason why the consult didn't attacked Atrithau?

13
If the IF was magic, it wouldn't work on anarcane ground, right? So it wouldn't work on the progenitors world, and it wouldn't have made them discover the outside.

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I don't see why the Progenitors couldn't find the outside without magic.
While they are on anarcane ground, it seems they still managed to notice that something was amiss with their logic. The absolute was eluding them (as for the Dunyain) even with all their tekne after who knows how many centuries.
I think it make sens that they would investigate the question and consider the possibility of a meaningful world.
And even if they don't have access to magic, they still have access to at least one door to the outside : themselve. Maybe the IF is some kind of device powered by progenitors brains and doing Wibbly Wobbly Souley Wimey stuff that open a window to the outside.

That being said, I like the idea that Ajokli made the ARK crash, leading to the events on Earwa, leading to Cna´ur running naked into the srancs, leading to Ajokli own birth! Classic example of self-made god ^^ !

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Identity of the Mutilated
« on: March 14, 2018, 01:28:54 pm »
Or maybe the others fought well against countless srancs, and he just happened to be knock out before he could do anything.

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