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Messages - H

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I think it stands to reason though that it would be the case for the nature of the Outside-Inside relationship to be different for placed besides Eärwa.  If it wasn't, how did the Progenitors get so far but not realize the Outside was real?  It seems very unlikely that the gods can function the same everywhere else, when we know that Eärwa is the exception.

Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope.  I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.
But that's just the definition of personification:
Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forces like seasons and the weather.

I'm not following.  Calling them Principles is personification?  I'd think that it was Men who personified the 100, not Nonmen, who thought of them as abstract conceptual principles.

I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.

Well, it is possible that, as my pet theory that Anarcane ground was a "hole" in the No-God's vision hypothesized, so it is also a hole in the vision of the 100.  Just like things you don't see, they are still there, but not capable of being attended to.  This might be why the gods are so much more active on Eärwa, rather than anywhere else.  It's a place of their maximal perception.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside. 
Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?

But do they see them in the Inverse Fire?

Does the Inverse Fire show everyone thousands?

Serious questions, I am old and don't recall.

Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods.  For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other.  Maybe less intercessional?
I don't think the Nonmen worshiped the Gods. I think the Nonmen were aware of their objective existence. It wasn't religion, it was personification as an artistic trope.

Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope.  I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.  While they didn't worship them as gods, they were seemingly still important.  Perhaps the 100 "Principles" were sort of like the 10 Commandments, not in the sense of laws, but rather, conceptions of acceptable (and unacceptable) behavior?

So, you don't worship the Fertility Principle, but if you want to be fertile, you had better know what it wants/demands/exacts.

Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.

Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods.  For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other.  Maybe less intercessional?

That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you

Or did I understood you wrong?

Yeah, the Inverse Fire is something of a window a mirror that reflects back your soul through the lens of the Outside.  In fact, thinking about it now, I don't think the Inverse Fire actually shows you the Outside.  Rather, it shows you the view of yourself from the perspective of an Outside observer.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside.  In this sense, I think the idea of it as being some of "read-only" is apt.  The Inverse Fire allows only a perspective/frame change, not an actual view of the Outside itself, or anything in it (aside your own soul).

Proginator Creation Myth is probably fairly likely, though someone sent the Inchoroi directly to Earwa. They basically popped out of a wormhole and landed, so it wasn't a mistake.

But how do we know that isn't the same way they arrived to every other planet?  If someone sent them to Eärwa, why all the stops in between?  So, at the very least, they weren't directed toward it in particular from the get go.  Which is something of a strike against the Ajokli in the Inverse Fire theory, I'd think.

The Inchoroi and the Ark are visible, but the meaning of the Ark is not visible (because it has none?). The way I see it, the Ark is like a Sranc. The Gods can see it, but it's just another element of the real to them, like a rock or a waterfall. The No-God is the ultimate manifestation of this physicality. The Gods can see the Inchoroi and the sins heaped upon them, but cannot see their mission.

I don't follow this, because the Inchoroi (and of course the Progenitors) are meaningful beings, that it the crux of their problem.  Now, I do think you are probably right, they don't see Sranc and maybe not the Ark, because they are "artificial" beings, but I've presented ideas before on why that might be that aren't just meaning-based.

The reason for Ajokli, or any of the Gods, being unable to get into the Golden Room and/or The Ark, all the Sranc, The First Apocalypse, Inchoroi, etc. etc. is unclear to me. I also don't understand how the proginators, or the Inchoroi, could be damned if the Gods couldn't see them.
If we can believe that some souls find oblivion by staying unnoticed by the Gods, I'm really not sure how living your whole life as invisible leads to something other than oblivion. I don't see how or why the Inchoroi could be so invisible and so damned.

Because damnation doesn't come from the gods, it comes from the Cubit.

They are not visible because the Eärwan gods are (seemingly) not universal, even if the Outside and the Cubit are.  It's not clear if this means that the gods are "locked out" from other places, because they are anarcane, or what though.  They've issued forth from the void, seemingly divorced from what the 100 can see.  But perhaps the issue is the 100 and the sundering of the God of gods though...

I think the fundamental question is, can a mundane object interact with the Outside?  My intuition is yes.

Also, it just seems implausible to me that Ajokli could interact with the Inchoroi through the Inverse Fire, but could not gain entrance to the Ark and only realized it was there by the void it left.

There is a weakness in this argument, namely the No-God. A creation of Tekne that has a very real effect on the Outside and divine agencies.
Right. Again, to my favor - it only works on Earwa with the help of magic. :) . No matter how deep they dug, they found only what they expected until Earwa. The only exception is the IF, so rather than it being an exception, its part of a rule, as described above.

But they actually expected the opposite.  They knew it wouldn't work everywhere.  They knew they needed to find a place where the exception was the rule.  Just because they, lets say, used highly advanced Quantum Mechanical understanding to realize that the Outside was actual and so that damnation was a fact, doesn't preclude them failing to understand how to produce Arcane Ground as a place where they could exact their plan.

Also, as SmilerLoki points out, we don't know that Sorcery is needed at all to make the Sarcophagus function at all.

No that's your conclusion shoehorned into my statement. I'm saying they didn't have magic and the only reason they could build the IF was because Ajokli (or any other Outside agency). Ajokli provided the magic, not the progenitors.

But you preclude that magic is necessary, even though we have no evidence that this would be the case.  Why is it unlikely that pinnacle level Tekne could not achieve it?  For example, the Ark itself is far more advanced than any other Tekne thing we know of, besides the Sarcophagus, and yet it worked without magic.

We have only what's provided, yes.
What's provided doesn't allow for mundane reasoning to unlock the secrets of the magical.

I don't follow, what is provided that proves that?

We can easily say that the Inverse Fire and the Sarcophagus prove this, if we presume they are Tekne.  But you choose to initially presume they are not, and so disprove this.  Since the Inverse Fire works everywhere though, it kind of goes against it being magic, since if the Inverse Fire and so the Sarcophagus are of the same ilk, it doesn't stand to reason why they should work differently.

I'm not talking about the real world.
The IF acts and works exactly like a lot of magic we see, so its likely some kind of magic (also it doesn't act like any other mundane thing, same conclusion).
Tekne doing magic doesn't fit, so they needed something with magic to help out.
"Outside' intervention seems most likely.
IF as a concept then must have come from Outside.
Ajokli is the most likely prospect and had the most to gain from its creation and use.

But you mentioned the LHC, which is a real thing, as being the only thing which would convince you that a Tekne way of viewing the Outside as possible.  That is a reference to the real world, or am I misunderstanding?

The Unholy Consult / Re: Identity of the Mutilated
« on: March 14, 2018, 02:04:14 pm »
Another thing we discussed is that the unscarred Mutilated is a bit suspicious, being unscarred and all.

I agree - I think it's a telltale that he was a traitor, without whom The Consult might've lost the battle of Ishual.

Why do his scars need to be visable to be real?  He could well be the one who they managed to turn via Cants of Compulsion, or broken by showing him the mutilation of the others.  Psychological trauma, or torture, is no less real.  Alternatively, he might have been the one for whom just seeing the Inverse Fire was enough to turn him.

Second, once the location of Ishuäl was known, it was only a matter of time before it would be destroyed by the Consult.  I don't believe it would take a traitor to have Ishuäl fall.  Sranc are almost innumerable and the fortress itself of mundane construction, there was no way the Dûnyain could hold out forever.

This is why I'm correct though. The Gods do have influence everywhere, so they are able to reach out to the proginators and show them the way to the Outside. But absent divine intervention, there is nothing the proginators, or the dunyain, could deduce about a world they can't see and don't believe in.

Reall, until the LHC opens up a portal to heaven, there's just no way to convince me that a race of beings who think they live in a meaningless world can find meaning via mundane principles.

Isn't this circular logic though?  You begin with the presumption that only magic can perceive the Outside, ergo, since the Progenitors made the Inverse Fire, they had magic.  But no where do we know how the fundamental structure of the Eärwan universe works, or can be revealed, and our own provides no real basis of comparison.  We have no idea what pinnacle Tekne could discern, because even Ark's (and so the Inchoroi's) brand of Tekne is necessarily derivative.

I think it is a disservice to say that since we don't understand how it is possible to achieve it technologically, when we don't understand the level of technology.  That would be akin to someone from 500 B.C. saying that nuclear power must be magic.  Everything that the Progenitors seemed to make was from the Tekne, so what is more likely, that the Inverse Fire is like the rest, or that the Inverse Fire is magic?

Its like this, look at the Dunyain. For all their brilliance, they don't know about the Outside, gods, magic, etc. and they live in a meaningful world. They can never deduce it from their mundane learning/teaching because its not possible. The proginators are basically more advanced Dunyain but so much farther away from a meaningful world. There's just not path to seeing that Gods and Magic are real with teknology and math - if there was, the Dunyain would have figured it out.

Ergo, you can't make something from teknology that lets you discover the Outside, Gods, Magic, etc.

I stridently disagree with this.  While I appreciate the logical approach, I think there are several flawed presumptions here that lead to a false conclusion.

Firstly, that the Dûnyain could not have deduced the Outside.  We simply do not know this.  In fact, the Dûnyain, were they not forced into ignorance, probably could have deduced it fairly easily.  Look how quickly Koringhus figures out all sorts of stuff once outside "the bubble."  We have no idea how long the Progenitors spent on the question.  We have no idea what they encountered to know the question to ask.  We have no idea how the Dûnyain would answer such a question in the same position.

Second, that there is no way to deduce the Outside via mundane means.  Again, this presupposes we know the nature of the Outside, which we absolutely do not.  In fact, the best clue might be the Inverse Fire itself, because if the description in the Glossary is accurate, it is a technological device that seems to reveal at least part of the fundamental nature of the Universe.

Third, that a mundane means would have already been discovered by the Dûnyain, which again, presupposes they had the available technology, which, they certainly did not.  The Progenitors, while similar to the Dûnyain, were vastly more technologically advanced, which really throws out the idea that anything the Progenitors did with technology could be reproduced by the Dûnyain.  The Dûnyain didn't discern space-flight, Grafts, soggomant, laser weaponry, and so on.  Clearly, the Progenitors were capable of more and so I find it unbelievable to presume that something is impossible because the Dûnyain didn't do it.

All in all, its not Ajokli's. You keep bringing up magic when the progenitors lived on a planet with no such thing. The IF came through means of technology.

Yeah, I have a hard time buying "Ajokli all the way down" sort-of theories.

We don't have any idea how the Progenitors happened upon the revelation that the Outside (and so, what appears to be a soul) was real and deterministic.  We could imagine though, that through some quantum mechanical investigation or something similar, it was discovered that there was "more" to the universe.  "Subparticular," in the Inverse Fire's description, could well mean sub-atomic, sub-any particles, which places the Inverse Fire below that of matter.  This could well be what the Outside actually is, the substrate by which all subsequent substrates are substantiated out of.

I am recalling this opening quote from TTT, Chapter 10:
"Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world—if it could apprehend its origins—it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul."

So, if we accept it's conclusion, that there is no soul, then we must go back to Memgowa's (which, admittedly could be wrong) that there is no now, here or me.  In support of this, we do anecdotally know that the Outside is apart from time, in some way, it also is apart from the spatial map of the world (and maybe the Universe), and in the Outside identity is shorn away.

I've managed to convince myself, here, that the Inverse Fire could have given them view of Ajokli's Hell, and so Ajokli some view of them, but I'm not convinced that it is probable that it was Ajokli that spurred the whole thing on.  The Progenitors knew of damnation and knew of it's implications.  I don't see why we need another agent.

Back to the original question of this thread (I think) was, how did the Inchoroi know that Eärwa was the Promised World.  Well, unforunately, we have no idea.  But, considering that they reduced some large number of worlds to try to find out means that there would seem to be two options.  If we initially presume that the Inchoroi didn't know exactly what to look for, because, if they did, they would not have needed to reduce each world, just simply look for the signs.  Ergo, it is plausible that they didn't know what to look for until they in fact found it.  This means that, somehow, Eärwa appeared (in whatever fashion) differently and so they knew.  In this case, it would seem that Ark failed because it had accomplished what it was intended to, but this is a poor explanation, because it had lasted that long and still (presumably) had an important function, why waste it?

There is also the possibility that they didn't know, pre-Fall.  In fact, they still didn't know post-Fall.  But, the reason Ark failed was exactly because Eärwa was the Promised World.  That is, somehow, whatever powered it, or sustained it, or allowed it to "live" was not able to function on Eärwa.  This would explain why it crashed without intentionality.  Nothing tells us that they knew that Eärwa was the Promised World pre-Fall.  Cleric, a la Wutteät, offers us the idea that Ark was already failing pre-Fall: "Only to arrive here broken and exhausted!" Cleric cried.  "YES—YES!"  Later, Aurang recalls: "He remembered their hallowed vessel faltering upon the shoals of the Promised World[.]"

So, most plausibly, Ark was already failing, for some other reason.  This last Fall seems to have been what killed it.  Now, we can go back and presume that in it's weakened state, perhaps some aspect of Eärwa is what killed it, or we can presume that it just so happened that it happened there.  I don't think the Inchoroi knew though pre-Fall and that calling Eärwa "The Promised World" is a post-hoc rationalization.

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