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Messages - Cynical Cat

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1
General Earwa / Re: Do All Skin-Spies Have Male Genitalia?
« on: October 24, 2017, 10:13:17 pm »
The Skin Spy in the Skin Eaters was referred to as "girl" by its Synthese handler and never displays an erection.  My guess is that the Skin Spies have human like genitalia and this is a flaw when impersonating members of the opposite sex. 

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 05, 2017, 10:08:55 pm »
Hmm... very interesting. Even then, we should ask why Chorae would burn rather than Salt a Cishaurim.

Chorae are products of the Aporos, which is to say language based sorcery where meaning is of crucial importance.  Cishaurim don't die in quite the same way as sorcerers because the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its so very close to sorcery that interaction with the Chorae produce similar but not identical effects.

As for Nannaferi, she seems to be a walking pinhole in the veil between the World and the Outside through which Yawter can pour some of her power.  That might not be a terribly accurate metaphor because we don't have really bright and well educated characters giving detailed discourses on this subject, backed by millennia of scholarly works at this point in the series but since Mimara is a viewpoint character and she is likely to be around Akka, we may get this in the No-God.  The book is scorched in the same manner as Nannaferi grows young, she receives premonitions of the future, and Meppa is healed.  Yawter acts through her, changing the world without sorcery. 

3
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 05, 2017, 11:43:26 am »
My impression is that Moe has become burning meat.  Moe isn't wearing much in the way of clothes and "sagging" isn't the way you describe a robe around a vanishing body.  It's possible that the more powerful Cishaurim are actually gibbed by the Chorae, but it seems we get massive tissue trauma and burning when Chorae hits a Psukharim.  There's a some wiggle room for interpretation, but there's clearly some burning and the remnants of a body left.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 04, 2017, 09:43:07 am »
A few additional points.  One, I don't think the Aporos and Tekne are closely related, although the Tekne clearly does have the ability to interact with the supernatural.  Like all interacting forces, its possible they can be combined or come into conflict (Chorae and Wracu) but that doesn't make related arts.

At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

This isn't true because we've seen Psatma handle a Chorae, specifically the one she used to destroy the Swayal infiltrator.  Something that clearly isn't sorcery is at work. 

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 03, 2017, 07:58:23 pm »
That's also not correct because there's clearly some kind of body.  "Falling like a sodden flag" means that there is a fair amount of weight to cause it fall like that instead of cloth on the wind and, of course, Moenghus's body remains.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 02, 2017, 07:41:56 am »
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.

No, he burned although that might be because he was so weak in the Water.  TTT page 387  "Moengus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnauiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.

What do you see?

But them his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form."

Bolding is mine.  He burns, he does not turn to salt, and his body sags.  Now Inrau also doesn't have the typical Chorae reaction, but he was barely marked and we all know Moenghus was weak in the Water. 

Page 378, Proyas hits one of the Incandanti with his Chorae.  "Then a flash, a black-ringed circle light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."  It's unclear exactly how the Cishaurum dies, but the flash of light and the death are consistent with Chorae-sorcerer interactions.  It's clear that the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its close enough as far as most things are considered.  Obviously, the eyes of the Few disagree and the judgement of the God of Gods remains to be seen.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 01, 2017, 07:16:50 pm »
The robes make telling whether or not they are "walking" hard to determine.  I don't recall any passages that indicate they don't.  And yes, they don't salt but they do die when struck by Chorae (there's no clear description, but they seem to burn and die) and Chorae affect their arcana in the same way they neutralize sorcery.  So "vulnerable to Chorae" does apply, even if the effects are slightly different.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: October 01, 2017, 10:54:34 am »
Thank you and I agree with your points as well.  The appendix describes the Psukhe as "arcane practice . . ., much like sorcery", which is to say much like sorcery but not sorcery.  Crucially, the Psukhe does not employ language and depend upon meaning for its strength, instead being based on intuition and being fueled by passion.  It too is acting on the same metaphorical principles (walking on the echoes of the ground, its compulsions only working on beings with souls, etcetera) and its users are as vulnerable to Chorae which means even though its technically not sorcery, it is pretty damn close. 

And you're right about the Tekne too.  I had initially thought, way back during the first trilogy, the No-God to be some unholy improvisation of the Tekne and the Aporos.  The sorcery of negation seemed like a good fit for a barrier to souls entering the world, but when we learned that genocide wasn't the Inchoroi's reaction to learning they could be damned once they were stranded on this strange world but instead the whole reason they came to Earwa in the first place, my perspective shifted.  Dragons, products of the Tekne that they are, are clearly partially supernatural in nature.  The Inverse Flame is another piece of high technology that touches on the Outside and, of course, the No-God.  It makes sense.  If physical world and the Outside are connected, if their is interaction, then that means that physical actions can in some way interact with the Outside and technology can be the producer of those actions and effects.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 30, 2017, 10:27:11 am »
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use. 

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 29, 2017, 07:30:31 pm »
That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.

The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 29, 2017, 10:24:48 am »
It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 28, 2017, 07:07:52 am »
There's a mention of Iyokus's Daimotic confrers, which makes sense because of course there is more than one sorcerer controlling all those Ciphrang.  They do hit the walls before the defensive wards are wrecked by the Chorae barrage and the Erratics are killed, so while it seems pretty clear they inflict massive damage on the Sranc and Bashrag ranks, they're being subject to a lot of punishment as well.  The topos doesn't seem to matter until they get too close to the Ark itself because it's only at the High Cwol do we see a Ciphrang realize that there's a door home nearby.  As for the quality of the demons, this is an art that the Aspect Emperor has learned, applied his genius too, and probably promoted and this is the time to go all out. 

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The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?
« on: September 26, 2017, 01:25:17 am »

I really enjoyed that, despite knowing about the Metagnosis, Aurang tries the same Lust-Glamour on Kellhus directly that he used in TTT via the Synthese...


Since he's there in person, Aurang has his phermones to back his play.

14
The Unholy Consult / Re: How tall are the Horns?
« on: September 23, 2017, 08:21:56 am »
Aurang's mission seemed to be to supervise the defense and then retreat inside, drawing Kellhus after him and exposing him to the Inverse Fire.  This went sideways, which happens in combat, and he ended up dead.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Speculiction's What Comes Next!
« on: September 20, 2017, 08:47:54 am »
No, we don't have numbers.  That's why I brought up the numbers of the Roman Empire, a comparably large polity for which we do have numbers.  Plenty won't be combat trained but basic proficiency with weapons doesn't take that long and they have incentive.  The Sranc hordes are far away and it's close to winter.  It's going to take a while for the No-God to arrive at the Three Seas.  As for unity, of course it won't be perfect but the No-God's presence which everyone can feel and the accompanying still births is going to be transformative.   

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