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Messages - Madness

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4831
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Nonmen religons.
« on: October 17, 2013, 05:01:51 am »
I think
I do not think there are really any special rules applied to Nonmen. Some are damned. Some aren't damned. All the sorcerers probably are damned by default. I think they're like any other ensoulled being in the universe (such as the Inchoroi, for example); the rules of damnation and salvation apply to everyone equally, no matter what. Except maybe humans, but even then only in certain cases.

As to their actual religion, I think the Nonmen simply don't want to worship the gods (perhaps because they know, or suspect, that the Hundred are indeed just bigger, meaner ciphrang), and instead they sought another route, that being the worship of the spaces between gods. They'd rather seek oblivion then play into the petty games of the gods for some small chance of approval.

I think all nonmen are damned.  How could immortality possibly be condoned in a world like Earwa?  No rotting souls allowed in heaven please!

I'm going to hazard that Mimara will see an Ishroi (non-Quya) in Ishterebinth with the Judging Eye and he will be righteous to behold ;).

4832
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Nonmen Society
« on: October 17, 2013, 04:56:07 am »
Nah, that was great.

I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?
My lead in assumption was that Mihtrul was a quyan 'school' as I thought Mimara's mail was made of nimil.  Quite mistaken, it is as hard as nimil. 
Otherwise there is only the fact that the practitioners of the aporos were 'seduced' by the Inchies and then created chorae, which made me suspect some 'school' type grouping.
So agree with the fact that School is likely an inappropriate term for whatever system of organisation quya had for learning and practicing magic.
OTOH the siqu helped set up the Schools of the north, so perhaps it is likely that they were patterned after nonmen organisations.
Quote from: The False Dawn
The Artisan. The Siqu founder of the School of Contrivers, the Mihtrulic

If I had to guess from what we know, I'd hazard that the twelve original Gnostic Schools of Sauglish organized around the specialties of their Siqu patrons?

I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.
Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.

As noted, sorcerous ability is hereditary amongst nonmen, but rule does not appear so.  There are no nonman princes after all. 

TTT glossary describes Ishroi as the name given to the nonmen warrior castes.  Note plural. 
Quya is the generic name for nonmen magi.
Siqu is the term for nonmen involved in the Tutelage.

Which leaves us with one broad term for some warrior castes that could include quya and/or siqu. :(

Interestingly, there is some discrimination between Ishroi and Quya when RSB wants to make clear that certain individuals are not Quya:
Quote from: The False Dawn
Two Ishroi, renowned for their valour–Misariccas and Runidil–and one Quya… ... Cet’ingira.

Quya specifically applies to hereditary sorcerers, no?

But otherwise, I'd agree - Quya can be Ishroi and Siqu but Ishroi and Siqu cannot earn the title Quya.

This seems to be feeding more and more into my speculation that Quya is a more rigid label, while Ishroi and Siqu are more flexible.

More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak. 

Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.

Definitely some confounding variables here. I'll need to check out my TDTCB for the language tree.

Can we assume that quya were more generally involved with religious and philosophical matters when they were not also Ishroi? 
4 revelations suggests that Ishroi spent most of their time in the field (the curse of Ishroi is to not know that their children are their own).
This would leave little time for religious, administrative and other more productive roles required in a functioning society.

If I remember correctly, in Plato's Republic the Guardian class mate by lottery. I've wondered what that line was supposed to mean otherwise, if not an analogy to that.

We know so little of the Nonmen religious roles - but I would argue (and have been ;)) that Quya handled all the administrative roles.

There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi.  NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear.  This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous.  So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya.  Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.

Good call. Damn dissociation.

Ciogli breaks Wutteat's neck with his bare hands.  Ingalira (Siol Ishroi) strangled Vshikcru (inchie).
NC in 4 revelations is Ishroi but not Quya.

Apologies for the meandering post :p

Well now.

How about that Su'juroit, the Witch-King?

4833
Introduce Yourself / Re: Reprezentin'
« on: October 17, 2013, 02:19:11 am »
Bad allusions are without beginning or end ;).

4834
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: The Ground, the Void and the Outside.
« on: October 17, 2013, 02:15:23 am »
Wilshire, buddy :o...

Reply #52 by one sciborg2.

4835
The Warrior-Prophet / Re: Kellhus and the No-God
« on: October 17, 2013, 02:13:36 am »
Hm... the Years of the Crib.

I'm still of the opinion that the Xiuhanni are a culture completely dominated by Inchoroi worship. In that case, they might take it as a sign that their Gods walk the mortal realm again?

4836
Literature / Re: Gentlemen Bastard Series by Scott Lynch
« on: October 16, 2013, 09:52:59 pm »
Lol.

Uh... movie? What? Really?!

4837
Literature / Re: Gentlemen Bastard Series by Scott Lynch
« on: October 16, 2013, 09:31:52 pm »
Camorr, you mean, the city from TLoLL?

I think, actually, that this is the number one reason why people have fallen off in the previous books. Camorr was such a damn cool setting and Lynch had obviously fleshed it out more-so than Tal Verrar (RSURS) or Karthain (TRoT).

4838
General Earwa / Re: Chorae
« on: October 16, 2013, 09:24:49 pm »
Lol, I just posted this in another thread but:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

Also:

Quote from: TTT Glossary, p545
After the disaster of Pir Pahal, the Inchoroi had seduced the practitioners of the Aporos, who had been forbidden from pursuing their art. Poisoned by knowledge, they devised the first of the Chorae to render their master immune to Cunoroi magic.

4839
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Nonmen Society
« on: October 16, 2013, 09:21:21 pm »
Outlawing the aporos was a religious edict iirc - its in TTT glossary under chorae or aporos, I think. 
That suggests a religious caste that was able to make 'legal' rulings independent of and overiding local kings of mansion.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

Likewise, quyan schools seem to have been independent to some extent from mansions.

I don't think Quyan "Schools" existed. From where are you interpreting this?

I do not think we can say sorcerous ability was a prerequisite of rule, and it was certainly not a requisite for Ishroi.

Well, this is my argument but we'll see how it fleshes out. I'm definitely asserting that at some point in Nonmen history, sorcerous ability became a prerequisite for rule.

Sorcerous ability (quya) was hereditary among nonmen, so likely a caste; although not strictly so.  As noted, some were seen as both ishroi and quya, also some seem to have been bound to schools and thus quya only (Mitrul etc) whilst others did the bidding of their kings (Mekeritrig) and still others were permitted to rule (NG).  So its a debatable point.

The first of the Nonmen to teach the Gnosis to humans was Gin'yursis (as an aside here, Bakker's Glossary and Zombie Three Seas quotes seem to be at odds here. It seems that preceeding the Nonmen Tutelage, Gin'yursis was in exile (ZTS) but yet during the Apocalypse is King of Cil-Aujas (Glossary). Also, the Wight's greatest student was the founder of the Mangaecca). Then the Siqu begin the Nonmen Tutelage and condone an orchestrated effort in collaborating with humans.

However, Nonmen don't seem to have formed Schools like men.

Quya (sorcerer-priests) on top, then warrior-nobles, then merchants, then menial workers, and finally slaves on the bottom. Rulers are from the two top castes. Castes are hereditary, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen selected for sorcerous ability in certain gene pools (much like the Dunyain selected for amoral intelligence in their breeding), so the Quya probably have different genetics from their non-magical cousins.

Quote
High Ainon serves as a metaphor for the Nonmen Mansions.

Erm, what? Where does it say that?

+1 to the former part of the post.

With the latter part, apologies, I'm just trying to draw a distinct analogy.

Again, my argument here is that the Quya ruled Nonmen society like the Scarlet Spires do High Ainon - and probably with none of the deception.

So, yeah, a very caste-oriented and status-oriented society, with the men massively outnumbering the women. This gender disparity, and the weird sexual dynamics that resulted from it, would've led to lots of female hypergamy and male homosexuality ("the sodomite kings of Eärwa", as the Tusk calls them).

My impression was that the gender disparity was the direct result of the Womb Plague, since all the women died out, and that the sodomy was the outcome of that since, well, you know.  Did I miss something?


No, I would agree. The label was probably derived from the fact that there were only Nonmen males when the Breaking of the Gates occurred and the line was written in the Book of Tribes by Angeshrael.

4840
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: The Ground, the Void and the Outside.
« on: October 16, 2013, 07:18:21 pm »
Trying to get an angelic Ciphrang to serve you in sin is just a category mistake.

Sounds bingo!

4841
The Warrior-Prophet / Re: Kellhus and the No-God
« on: October 16, 2013, 07:16:14 pm »
I'm not sure that speculation is consistent?

The Womb Plague happened long before the Breaking of the Gates.

4842
General Earwa / Re: Chorae
« on: October 16, 2013, 07:12:55 pm »
Sure, why not? I mean, we might have to suspend judgement concerning rejection of metals implanted in the skin and complications and death associated with toxicity but...

4843
General Earwa / Re: TSA: the musical
« on: October 16, 2013, 06:21:54 pm »
Also, solo should be a requisite for the pit.
Are you sure you want to do that? he'd just quote foucoult at us.

He'll make a great Chorus then ;).

Also, solo should be a requisite for the pit.
I don't even know what this means? Though it sounds so cool I kinda agree already!

sologdin is a necessary addition to the pit :).

4844
Literature / Gentlemen Bastard Series by Scott Lynch
« on: October 16, 2013, 06:13:49 pm »
Just sounding the board.

Who is a fan? Who has read The Republic of Thieves?

4845
Introduce Yourself / Re: Reprezentin'
« on: October 16, 2013, 06:10:02 pm »
ok thats enough italics

It is? IS IT?! Who will take the knife to my heart?

;)

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