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Messages - BeardFisher-King

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226
General Misc. / Re: The Joe Rogan Experience
« on: January 26, 2018, 05:03:56 pm »
Sorry, couldn't even get past the self-promotion and sponsors. According to the notes, Shermer is a science writer, a historian of science, and "King of the Skeptics" (jk, jk...a little levity, no offense....).

His book looks interesting: "The Scientific Search For The Afterlife, Immortality and Utopia". I will go with the written word. Thanks for the link, Madness!


227
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 26, 2018, 03:05:31 pm »
Hey, how 'bout ol' BFK referring to the tenets of his faith as "idiosyncratic metaphysical preoccupations"?

Now that's philosophical detachment!

228
A bit of Fry and Laurie for a Friday morning:
https://youtu.be/6riY-103vbc

"Sing the song!" "I'm singing the song, Oren! Don't tell me to sing the song!"

(Hugh Laurie has mastered the American accent!)

229
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 26, 2018, 01:58:01 pm »
Today's pressing problem is the alienation of individuals and the lack of community, so any and all attempts to build new ways to connect are welcome, in my opinion. And I hope you'll agree that the preservation of what's good within faith communities is worth the toleration of idiosyncratic metaphysical preoccupations.
Slow work, indeed. The easy part is disparaging entire groups and saying 'get rid of all of it!' (basically what I've more/less said so far). The hard work is actually trying to find a workable solution that is possible within the confines of the reality that we live in.

To that end, I'd absolutely admit that identifying and preserving what's been done correctly in faith communities is a worthy endeavor. Prayer, as an obvious example, when done in groups (like before dinner), is a suburb way of telling people you care about them. Being told you're cared about is deeply satisfying and I'm sure has all kinds of measurable positive psychological effects, but I don't imagine most people would willing hold hands in a group and tell those people they love them - family or not. Its somehow easier when you're speaking affirmations and being grateful, to do so at/to a third part, rather than directly to a person/group.
Very astute observation, Wilshire. The sad fact is that we are all isolated selves, and it is so hard to trust/connect/love others. We want to reach out, but we fear rejection. So, eventually, we look beyond this world for help. Your example of praying at dinner is so on-target. Other examples abound: gathering for weddings and funerals. Similar impulses apply; we want to express our love, concern and hopes for the new couple, and we want to honor the life of the one who has passed. But so many uncertainties assail us, so we unite under the protection of a third party, and petition in His name

230
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 26, 2018, 01:28:14 pm »
Again, I get that people do good things. But good people don't need religious institutions to be good people. Granted, society doesn't presently have a replacement for all the useful functions a decent local church, or whatever centralized entity that locals call their place of worship, but that doesn't mean we can't work to replace them. Again, fundamental disagreement: that all that's good about religion is in spite of all its metaphysical baggage, not because of.
You noted yesterday, in a different context, that destruction is easy compared to creation. I suppose I can understand your interest in replacing churches with secular community centers of some kind, given your rejection of the metaphysical "baggage" of religion. I know that St. Louis has an institution called the "Ethical Society" which I imagine is in line with your thinking. So, the work of replacement is underway, but it will be slow work at best.

Today's pressing problem is the alienation of individuals and the lack of community, so any and all attempts to build new ways to connect are welcome, in my opinion. And I hope you'll agree that the preservation of what's good within faith communities is worth the toleration of idiosyncratic metaphysical preoccupations.

231
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 07:18:06 pm »
I agree that a larger toolkit is a good idea. That's why I keep banging on about cognitive dualism and the need for (at least) two methods of talking about reality and human nature. The "hammer" of mechanistic materialism is as limited as the "hammer" of faith or of philosophy.

At this juncture the thread seems to be getting into the minutia of Bakker territory so I hesitate to repeat views I don't necessarily have the capacity to argue effectively but...

Faith and philosophy don't have the pedigree that "science!" does, does it? Even as someone who pays attention to anomalous human behaviours, I've not yet encountered the priest or philosopher who spake and thus produced a nuclear reaction.
Dear me, Madness, apples and oranges! You're downgrading priests and philosophers because they don't do science? If they did, they'd be scientists! As it happens, a priest named Martin Luther changed the course of human history by nailing tattooed tree pulp to a wooden door. Different tools for different tasks.

I'm not sure how I've "downgraded" priests or philosophers? There are plenty of "christian scientists" (or any other faith/sect/whichever), Dr. Damadian, for instance, who precipitated MRI and fMRI.

Sure, Martin Luther, MLK Jr., the Suffragists, etc, etc, all effect change within the human sociocognitive arena (or in a certain cognitive ecology, Bakker might say).

It's bothersome being "put into a box," though I suppose it an inevitable consequence of perception and caricature. I find it kind of funny that anyone might suggest I devalue the words of anyone considering that I've been led to my personal strange and arbitrary crux by thinkers of all creeds and ideologies, secular and faithful.

Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy.

I don't think this is accurate. If science was more prevalently accepted than faith or philosophy, we wouldn't be seemingly overwhelmed with sociocultural dysfunction of that type.

It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

(*Hey, I finally managed to address the question posed by the thread!)

Again, I'm really confused as to why I'm being perceived as discounting faith, philosophy, or art as worthwhile practices and pursuits?

I think that I misunderstood what you meant by "pedigree", Madness. To me, your sentence implies some sort of ranking where science is privileged over faith and philosophy. But, upon consideration, I see that one could indeed consider science the superior method (or even the "ruling" method), while still valuing the contributions of the "lesser" methods. I hope I'm understanding you correctly now.

(God, I hope I got the quote tags right on this Frankensteinian post!)

232
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 06:27:31 pm »
One problem I have with your argument about religion is if your smart enough to look, almost all the major religions and minor, stem from ancient religions. Christmas isnt Baby Jesus's B-Day, its the winter solstice. In the end most religions core values are very similar, their stories down right eerily similar. Its just they've changed them up little by little to aid their political needs.
And there's the rub. Whatever message might have been handed down by whoever, it certainly was revised over time. At this point, who's to say what is the word of god and what has been revised by humans (for better or worse?). So now, since we can't know, and we can't question, anyone can claim the divine right of anything and be, as far as I can tell, equally correct. If we did ever have the writ of god, it was torn asunder millennia ago.

Clearly, then, faith claims of divine inspiration and exclusive truth status are highly problematic from a philosophical standpoint. And taking these faith claims as "hammers" to assault nonbelievers, infidels, science, etc. would be wrong. Imho, faith claims do not "travel" well; again, I'm trying to demarcate the areas where faith is a valid method and where it is not.
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Catholicism itself claims the Anti-Christ will appear to be exactly like Jesus until he starts doing something that's evil (conveniently not clearly defined). So really, anyone who challenges the status quo of the institution can be labeled as the literal devil incarnate and crucified. Far too convenient, it seems to me, to have a mechanism in your religion that allows for absolute, unquestionable power to be maintaining by a single group for the rest of time.
I don't believe this is an accurate representation of Catholic belief; however, it's very possible that some Catholics do believe this. The whole Antichrist/Book of Revelations/End Times matter doesn't rise to the level of Church doctrine, AFAIK. We are simply instructed to "live each day as if it might be our last" for "no man knows the hour of His coming". But I'm just a layman; the authoritative source would be the "Catechism Of The Catholic Church".
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In my mind, I do believe that there is only ONE GOD, and its just worshipped in a multitude of ways. Wilshire, we've had a few talks about how we both hate that probably more bad then good comes from religion, its just fact.
I think that's great, really I do. And, in fact, many major religions splinted off due to one group believing in a latter prophet. Jesus splintering Christianity from Judaism. Muhammad splintering further into Islam (I think?). It does seem to make sense that the hundred that are worshiped are all portions of the Absolute.

If everyone could agree that 'we' (humans) are all worshiping the same entity, that might be helpful. Even more so if we could agree on what he/she/they/it says. But there are so many rules, so many dogmas. So many people who believe so fervently that they'd kill, or themselves die, rather than question or be questioned, that I don't see how humanity can continue to exist along this path.

I find it heartening that Christianity as a worldly political power is a thing of the past. Even the violent post-Reformation conflicts between Protestants and Catholics have ended; perhaps the "Troubles" in Ireland are even over.

Every Good Friday, the Catholic liturgy includes prayers for Christian unity. The collegial, respectful attitude that you foster here at the TSA Forum is an example of what all Christians, indeed, all people should strive for.
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I am very interested in what BFK/Bolivar/others who seem to have a deep relationship with religion feel about that. Again, I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just seeking opinions from those who think differently than me. I'd not otherwise speak frankly with anyone of one faith or another, so I find this conversation of particular interest.
This is marvelous, Wilshire, and I am happy to share ideas and beliefs with you. I, too, am interested in what you and others believe and in what you and others make of my beliefs.

233
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 03:36:51 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
Lmao.. .yeah, I'm right behind you on that "murder the world" mission, MSJ...right behind you and running like hell in the opposite direction!

Still laughing...... ;)

Come now...“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds."


<huff, puff> "What do I believe?" <huff, puff> "I believe that I'm not running fast enough!"

234
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 03:25:30 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
"If MSJ is with me, who can stand against me?"

Why.....noone! I AM THE BREAKER OF HORSES AND MEN! MSJ & BFK would just murder the world to find the dissenting voices.
Lmao.. .yeah, I'm right behind you on that "murder the world" mission, MSJ...right behind you and running like hell in the opposite direction!

Still laughing...... ;)

235
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 01:21:15 pm »
Quote from:  BFK
Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy. It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

:slow clap:

Out of all this conversation, that is the most sensible comment, that I've seen(excuse me I skim over a lot that really just goes over my head), in this thread.

To fully be human we need all of that. Science to dig deep and create things and also expand our knowledge. Thing is a lot of science, is just theories. So how is a theory any different from faith? Its just the way I look at it. Not saying I have the strongest faith, but I do find myself leaning on it at times. And, maybe that's my problem, I should lean on it all the time. I've seen and heard miracles through faith. Giving people the strength to change their lives and such. Thats the same type of proof, if not more, that you find in some fields of science. Arts and philosophy expand our minds and make us more creative. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, BFK.

"If MSJ is with me, who can stand against me?"

 MSJ presents the case for faith well. Faith can give us a way of coping with or even overcoming the bleak truths presented to us by science, as believers who have received a discouraging prognosis from a doctor might confirm.

236
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 25, 2018, 04:23:41 am »
I agree that a larger toolkit is a good idea. That's why I keep banging on about cognitive dualism and the need for (at least) two methods of talking about reality and human nature. The "hammer" of mechanistic materialism is as limited as the "hammer" of faith or of philosophy.

At this juncture the thread seems to be getting into the minutia of Bakker territory so I hesitate to repeat views I don't necessarily have the capacity to argue effectively but...

Faith and philosophy don't have the pedigree that "science!" does, does it? Even as someone who pays attention to anomalous human behaviours, I've not yet encountered the priest or philosopher who spake and thus produced a nuclear reaction.
Dear me, Madness, apples and oranges! You're downgrading priests and philosophers because they don't do science? If they did, they'd be scientists! As it happens, a priest named Martin Luther changed the course of human history by nailing tattooed tree pulp to a wooden door. Different tools for different tasks.

Yes, we're living in an age where the method of "science!" is more highly regarded than the methods of faith and philosophy. It's the "Revenge Of The Alchemists". The point that I'm trying to make is that we need faith and philosophy (and art, for that matter) as well as science to fully explore reality. I believe* that it's very dangerous to use the "hammer" of science to reduce the tools of art, faith, and philosophy to rubble.

(*Hey, I finally managed to address the question posed by the thread!)

237
The Unholy Consult / Re: So Kellhus "went mad?"
« on: January 25, 2018, 12:12:28 am »
Love, Esmenet was his only darkness..
Well, love will make you crazy; I don't care what world you're on!

239
The Unholy Consult / Re: So Kellhus "went mad?"
« on: January 24, 2018, 07:38:42 pm »
No, I really appreciate your expansion of the idea, Wilshire. Dunyain "madness" vs Eärwan "madness". Great analysis, imho.

240
Philosophy & Science / Re: What do you believe? (Redux)
« on: January 24, 2018, 03:56:57 pm »
Great post, H! I especially like the way that you express the unimportance of "proving" the claims of a religious belief system. To me, what's way more important is to belong to a faith community.
Faith is definitely important for collective organization, coherence etc. and the people who rant against religion are ignorant of the fact that virtually every human community has some kind of shared mythology, whether it's religious or ideological.
That being said, faiths are not equal.
There's a brilliant line in Heretics of Dune where Tylwyth Waff exclaims "The sun is not God!". The implications here are tremendous imo.
No, faiths are not equal, or perhaps we could say that all faiths are equally "nonsensical"; i.e., they all have a resistance to being disproved.

I don't get your point with the quote from HoD, Tleilaxu. Could you expand upon the implications and the context?

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