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Messages - BeardFisher-King

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256
OK, unfortunately I don't have TGO at hand, but I found myself completely at sea at the end of TGO. Bakker is shifting back and forth from the scene with Kellhus, Esmi, Kelmomas, and the Narindar to the scene with P-splat-ma (h/t to another denizen of the TSA forum...), Kellhus, Meppa and Malowebi.

My question: is the narrative timeline linear? IIRC, Kellhus finishes the battle with Meppa and then grabs Malowebi, who asks, "What are you?" Kellhus responds, "Weary." Then Bakker shifts to the final scene in the palace, then shifts back to the creation of Malowebi 2.0. Anyone have a clue about the actual order of events?

BTW, if my Android device doesn't cease auto-correcting Bakker's name to "Banker", someone is getting a very stern letter....

257
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: March 15, 2017, 12:59:17 pm »
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

I'm thinking that it is important to keep in mind the contingent aspect of Kellhus' quest. He has to use the tools at hand. As Kellhus is introduced to the Earwan ruling class, he chooses Proyas as a result of his scrutiny, the Probability Trance, and his search for the Shortest Path. His use of Cnauir was contingent, and the reverberations of that choice may still haunt Kellhus.

I believe that Kellhus chooses Proyas because he is the best tool for a certain project. So in that sense, he is special (and perhaps irreplaceable).

258
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: March 08, 2017, 10:57:04 pm »
Damn......well, I would imagine that "bowel-loosening" might  be closer to the mot juste......

259
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: March 08, 2017, 10:12:21 pm »
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

But Serwë was never similarly disillusioned, was she? I'm thinking the shaping of Proyas will lead to some amazing developments in TUC.

260
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: March 08, 2017, 05:51:23 pm »
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.

For me, these "teaching moments" of Kellhus are fascinatingly difficult. In them, Kellhus has to be seen as the ultimate unreliable narrator. Here, as readers, we "believe" Kellhus is telling Proyas the "truth" while at the same time we know that Kellhus is shaping Proyas, "his most beautiful slave".

So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?

[EDIT Madness]: Quote tags.

261
It might be that Aurax was ordered to cross the Yimaleti and take control of a xenophobic culture dominated by Sorcerors.  Then during the final battle at Golgatterath, they'll Translocate in and attack the Great Ordeal.  He'll personally lead the attack armed with a completely new Tekne artifact that rivals the Heron Spear...

Oops, wrong series.

Honestly, it amazes me that this Tekne crap all still works. You mean to tell me that IF the Heron Spear turns up, then all the bearer will need to do is find the POWER switch?

The Ark of Obscenities must have a seriously excellent service desk.

IS NOT IT SUPPORT INFINITE?3

HOW.....I.....HATE......THIS......TECH.....SUPPORT....DESK!


262
It might be that Aurax was ordered to cross the Yimaleti and take control of a xenophobic culture dominated by Sorcerors.  Then during the final battle at Golgatterath, they'll Translocate in and attack the Great Ordeal.  He'll personally lead the attack armed with a completely new Tekne artifact that rivals the Heron Spear...

Oops, wrong series.

Honestly, it amazes me that this Tekne crap all still works. You mean to tell me that IF the Heron Spear turns up, then all the bearer will need to do is find the POWER switch?

The Ark of Obscenities must have a seriously excellent service desk.

263
Literature / Re: YOU MUST TELL ME ... What else are you reading?
« on: February 23, 2017, 07:50:18 pm »
I recently finished the Three Body trilogy by Cixin Liu. I'm wondering if anyone else is reading it. I found the books unusually interesting for SF.

264
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: February 21, 2017, 11:25:37 pm »
If I might elaborate  my fascination with this image...

First, heads don't belong on poles (Pikes, no problem... ;). Even having been steeped in a grimdark broth for six volumes, this matter-of-fact statement really packs a punch. Especially as it's delivered in the second-person case. This draws the reader into the predicament.

Consider the peculiar space a reader of fantasy fiction occupies. He shares in the various POVs created by the author. He struggles to keep a grip on both the narrative and the structure of the fictional world. And then....WHAM! He is IN the story! There is a fucking HEAD on a fucking POLE! And it's right there BEHIND him!

I hope that resonates with other Bakker fans out there. IMHO, there are lots of similar moments that are equally gobsmacking. But this one really grabbed me.

265
General Earwa / Re: TGO in the Gemmell awards
« on: February 21, 2017, 10:06:09 pm »
Cast my vote for RSB. I don't think I read anything else on the longlist (!). There goes my fantasy cred....

266
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: February 20, 2017, 09:00:06 pm »
I've just gotta add: when I came to the first instance of "There is a head on a pole behind you" in TGO, that may have been the biggest "Wtf?!" reaction I've had in all my years of reading fiction. I still find it chilling.....because it's BEHIND you...

267
Did anyone on their very first read get the feeling that Akka was a pedophile or at least a guy with a sketchy past? I'm remembering my very first read thru and I thought he molested proyas, loved inrau, and loved esmi because he just not supposed to. I think one of my earliest post was asking if akka was a pedophile.

No, I never got that impression; I always considered Achamian completely hetero, given Esmenet's early appearance in the story. Akka's love for Inrau, IMHO, is textbook Platonic teacher/student relationship.

Don't all sorcerers in the Three Seas have sketchy pasts? And even sketchier futures?  :o

268
Introduce Yourself / Hello!
« on: February 12, 2017, 07:23:58 pm »
Hi! I've been a frequent guest for quite awhile, and I thought it would be a good time to join, what with TUC on its way in a few months.

I stumbled on PoN maybe around the time TTT was published (2006). Looking back, I was intrigued by the multiple POVs and the general world-building. Now, six books into the Slog, the damn thing is so damn BIG.

Thanks for establishing this forum. I was never on Westeros or 3Cs, and this whole thing is new to me. But I think I'm up to speed on etiquette.

Cheers!

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