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Messages - Dunkelheit

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16
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
« on: July 31, 2017, 08:02:14 am »
Quote from: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 04:05:43 am
Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

His invisible chorea bag lead to both Serwa and Kellhus getting salted. I guess that doesn't count as lasting impact? And why wouldn't him driving a wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas count as lasting impact to begin with?

Quote from: Blackstone on July 31, 2017, 04:05:43 am
The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas.
In other words: not pointless. Also, the White Luck is in the Momemn story line. Which both sets up Sorweel and gives us insight into how the gods work.

Kind of seems like you are skewing the facts toward your preconceived conclusion. I get that you feel like it was pointless, but that doesn't mean it definitely was pointless. I think if you took a more objective look at the story it would be much less cut and dry than you are making it out to be.

17
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality
« on: July 31, 2017, 07:39:38 am »
themerchant, that's true. I kind of forgot that he is one of the few. So yes, he must have a soul.

18
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
« on: July 30, 2017, 10:10:12 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:51:58 pm
Quote from: Dunkelheit on July 30, 2017, 09:45:29 pm
Quote from: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:38:32 pm
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

If he attacked Serwa, I missed that part. Page number?

I don't have my book with me right now, sorry. It wasn't explicit, but I'm referring to her getting salted. The hundred chorea appeared as if it was being taken out a pouch. Invisible chorea in a pouch? Sounds a lot like what a certain Sorweel was carrying around, right? It got kicked away and ignored, but who was the one person who saw it? Kelmomas. I only got it after Kel appeared in the gold room, which was probably when I was supposed to get I'm guessing. So while his appearance was a big surprise, no doubt, it wasn't completely out of nowhere.

19
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
« on: July 30, 2017, 09:45:29 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone on July 30, 2017, 09:38:32 pm
Yes, I realize that happened in the book. The fact that we then stopped following the storyline of Kelmomas until he shows up in the golden room seems like a cheap way to make a surprise happen.

Well, we have the scene with the scylvendi and he also attacked Serwa before heading to the golden room, right?

20
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality
« on: July 30, 2017, 09:36:49 pm »
I think you inserted the "soul" part yourself. Here is the quote (in context).

Quote from: Cû'jara-Cinmoi on July 28, 2017, 10:13:40 pm
Quote from: jurble on July 28, 2017, 07:57:15 pm
edit: Oh, and the entire time I thought Kelmomas was supposed to be twin-souled, was he actually meant to represent non-conscious human thought via bicameralism?

Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.

21
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
« on: July 30, 2017, 08:12:19 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki on July 30, 2017, 02:55:15 pm
Quote from: Spooky on July 30, 2017, 02:45:41 pm
Oh and we are all just pretending the pandering Cunny loving 100 foot Dragon dialogue wasn't there, right? Because it felt like Scott was talking to his critics from the first firestorm he became embroiled in, with the feminists.
I've actually read that moment as quite epic. And funny, which did not diminish its darkness in any way. I even specifically cited it to one of my friends.
I'm also in the camp that this was a really good scene. I mean, are we forgetting that dragons were made by the Inchoroi? Of course it starts going off about cunny and maidenhead.

22
The Unholy Consult / Re: Dunyains on earth?
« on: July 30, 2017, 07:24:22 pm »
Quote from: obstinate on July 30, 2017, 07:00:18 pm
Depends on what you mean by slave. If you mean, "can you do something other than be the next step in the great physical chain of events that is our universe," then the answer is no, you can't. By that standard all people, and all things, are slaves. But if the word slave applies to everything in existence, then it seems to have little use. You may as well ask, "do we exist, while we exist?" Yes, indeed we do.
Woops, looks like I stumbled into the determinism argument, which wasn't my intention. Yes, I agree that we live in a deterministic universe and all that. What I tried to get at is more that in light of the Dunyain is freedom even a meaningful concept? And if not what should we do about it? Is it better to be a Dunyain than a regular worldborn?

To me it would seem terrifying if someone like Kellhus could just uproot my entire life and make me tool to their unknown agenda. But would really be the alternative? The only person who seems immune to that kind of influence is maybe Cnair, and he has his own troublesome philosophy.

23
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam
« on: July 30, 2017, 07:12:02 pm »
Quote from: Spooky on July 30, 2017, 02:45:41 pm
The Book is vague and easily/deeply easy to misinterpret at the very best and its highly unlikely you could take a step back and look at the commentary here, at Westeros, Reddit, RPGNET and Goodreads and draw any other evidence based conclusion.
Well, he admits that he has to resist the temptation to make everything a mystery, so this is probably a fair point. But what do you mean by misinterpret? Are you making the assumption that there is one correct interpretation? I think it's pretty clear that he has left things up for interpretation on purpose, and you see that from his interviews too. You might take umbrage with that if you like, but you can't say that it wasn't intended.

24
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality
« on: July 30, 2017, 06:51:14 pm »
Are you referring to the parts with Kelmomas point of view? i agree that it really seems like he has two souls when viewing things form his perspective, but the revelation that they change places threw a big monkey wrench in that (seemingly obvious) interpretation for me. If they are really two people, how could they not keep each other apart?

I think Kelmomas two souls are more like the two metaphorical souls Serwa talks about.: An Anasûrimbor is born with two souls, one that acts and one that observes. I think kelmomas condition is what happens when you don't have an actual soul to unify these two parts.

25
The Unholy Consult / Re: Conditioned ground
« on: July 30, 2017, 06:35:48 pm »
I would go yes on the first question and no on the rest. There is only so much that you can predict no matter how smart you are. Butterfly effect and all that. I think what Moe sr. was able to predict about the Prince of Nothing plot line is a good measure of what a Dunyain is capable of predicting or not.

I think he mostly abandoned the Great Ordeal because they were becoming impossible to control even by him. If he had staid it would either expose the limits of his power or his immorality. It's better to just leave and let Proyas take the blame for what happens. As for why he spend his free time to rescue Esmenet, he seems to have feelings for her. As much as Dunyain is able to at least. That's both what he claims, and what Maithanet already suspected. Also, the fact that he strings up Proyas in a way that doesn't kill him is evidence that he doesn't just act purely according to what is most efficient at this point.

26
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality
« on: July 30, 2017, 06:21:27 pm »
Quote from: MSJ on July 30, 2017, 06:17:34 pm
I'd say the is more than sufficient evidence that Kel has two souls. Plus, with him being the namesake to Celmommas, its pretty much a given.

How so?

27
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Kelmomas, Nau-Cayuti and causality
« on: July 30, 2017, 05:49:26 pm »
I think being a sociopath definitely has something to do with it. We saw that Nau-Cayuti didn't feel fear, right?

I'm not so sure Kelmomas actually has two souls though, or whether he just believes he does. The fact that he doesn't notice that he and his alter constantly change places is bisarr. And Kellhus says that he isn't sure if there is even someone to kill when referring to Kelmomas, so I don't think we can be sure either. I would posit an alternative interpretation: That Kelmomas actually has no soul.

28
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC] The Gods and Their Agency
« on: July 30, 2017, 04:08:35 pm »
It seems like the gods have different powers, Momas has the ability to cause earth quakes, Yatwer can make White Lucks. So they affect the world in different ways specific to the god in question. I take it that they perceive the entire timeline like White Luck does, so this probably means they are not really make decisions as much as they are gonna do the things they have already done. So I don't think they are like greek gods, actual beings with actual agency. I think they are more like if the forces of nature reacted to moral laws instead of physical laws?

29
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers] Dunyains on earth?
« on: July 30, 2017, 03:28:28 pm »
The existence of the gods and afterlife seems to make the Dunyain philosophy a fools errand (just ask Koringhus). But what if the Dunyain lived on Earth instead of Earwa? Is seeking to free yourself from the darkness that comes before a worthy goal?

Certainly living in ignorance and being at the mercy of unknown forces is not something to be desired. But I'm of the opinion that the Dunyain themselves are especially free either. From the very beginning we see Kellhus making people follow him by explaining and free people from the darkness that makes them act the way they do, in a way making them more like the Dunyain. But that just makes them more dependent on him, more enslaved. Likewise Kellhus himself is, or at least claims to be, completely controlled by his mission. This makes it seem like the Dunyain rather than being the freest people, are actually the most enslaved.

So are we doomed to be slaves no matter what we do?

[EDIT Madness: Title.]

30
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers]Fatal flaw of Dunyain philosophy?
« on: July 30, 2017, 03:14:00 pm »
O'right

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