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Messages - MSJ

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2176
Sorry I worded my response a bit different than I was thinking. I dont think Moe simply awed and cowed the Sranc into submission. Rather I think he manipulated Mek into arranging the scenario with the sranc. Yes, Moe manipulated the situation.

2177
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The thought struck Cnaiür that Dûnyain monks might be even more inhuman than he had thought. What things such as truth and meaning had no meaning for them? What if all they did was move and move, like something reptilian, snaking through circumstance after circumstance, consuming soul after soul for the sake of consumption alone? The thought made his scalp prickle.

Sounds a lot like the No-God, or the 100 warring over souls, no?

2178
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He embraced her— desperately. At first she remained stiff, but when he began sobbing, something within her broke. She relented, relaxed against the press of his arms, breathed deep his smell— myrrh, sweat, and leather. How could this man, so stern, more self-assured than any she had known, weep at striking someone like her? Treacherous. Adulterate. How could he—“I know you love him,” she heard him.

Another myrrh reference....also when Esme and Aurang had their fling myrrh was mentioned. I believe it identifies not only Skin-Spies, but the Tekne.

2179
TLD, great points. Though I can't really see a band of sranc being cowed and manipulated into guiding a Man, doesn't fit their MO.

But, why doesn't Kelhuss show any previous knowledge of sranc when he first confronts them? Doesn't know what their tracks are. It just seems this story is a culmination of what Kelhuss has come across in his journey, and a reasonable story for Cnaüir to believe.

2180
Mek referring to Moe and not Cel is something I had not considered. That could fit, but I still don't see Moe as the master planner of kellhus' entire journey. The dude nearly dies like 4 times, if anything that points to Moe being almost as incompetent as kel (if in fact he was preparing most of the journy).

Yes, on the face of it, sure. But, what if Mek was supposed to guide him to the steppe? What if Mek just couldn't resist creating the memory? Or simply, Moe doesn't want Kelhuss to know much about Mek. Because in the end, Kelhuss is the tool of Moe and still is as of WLW. Hey, we all say how Kelhuss thinks he's always right but isn't, and the great irony would be that he is just a tool of someone.

2181
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Was this what you intended, Father? Is he an obstacle you’ve placed in my path? Or is he an accident?
Likely the latter, Kellhus decided.

No, I am certainly not buying that.

I'm on the fence about if I believe Kellhus about being on a mission to kill Moe.  Prima-facie, I don't believe it.  Before meeting Cnaiür, he speaks only of meeting Moe, "dwelling in his father's house," not killing him.  I believe he tells Cnaiür he wants to assassinate Moe because he knows this is what will motivate him to help him.

So, what did they really send out Kellhus for?  And for that matter, why did they send Moe out, really?

Well, we have the "Who is the Manipulator" thread, and my belief that Seswatha is that Manipulator. That theory hinges on a lot of "what if's", but let's talk about what we know.

1) When Kelhuss firsts leaves Ishual, all he ever says is that he is going to find his father in Shimeh. No inner dialogue about killing him.

2) he tells Leweth that he is going to his father in Shimeh, nothings has changed.

3) As you said, when he realizes Cnaüir wants to kill his father that is when we first hear that is Kelhuss's mission. Ain't buying it, all Dûnyain are lying liars who lie to meet their needs. Cnaüir knows this, but he wants this more than anything and is therefore tricked. Kelhuss even considers killing Cnaüir after the Steepe.

4)We hear the story of Moe being sent out to kill a band of Sranc and then being exiled because he's polluted.

Which I ain't buying. Remember when Kel first mmets the sranc? He has no idea what these creature are. He studies one before Mek shows up. He didn't know what the prints were when he showed them to Leweth. Leweth even remarked upon this, " You live in the North, and you dont know these?". This is all a story Kel uses to further his goal to Shimeh with Cnaüir. Really, anything we could come up with as to the true purpose of sending out Moe then Kelhuss by the Dûnyain, is pure speculation. But, its not the story Kelhuss gives us, that much I'm sure of.

2182
Haha, I love it. And now we know why Madness has to refrain from rereads and discussions. This is pretty compelling and solid evidence we have here. And, I'm 98.5238% sure its true. It just lines everything up nice and neat as to how Kelhuss wouldve survived, because without the help of Moe/Mek, he simply doesn't. Mek is probably going to be the huge plot twist that this whole story hinges upon. He could be who is still carrying out parts of Moe's original TTT. Now, I'm not saying he's the mastermind because he is erratic, but he could still be pulling unseen strings.

ETA: And regardless of what others think I believe Moe is still involved in this story, too. We'll discuss that when we get there though.

2183
Brilliant, H. It never made sense to me that Moe would survive because he is Dûnyain. Sranc are sranc, and meat is well....meat. If Moe didn't have a connection with them, then he simply would not have lived.

2184
Another thing that gives us a hint to Mek, is that Bakker was pissed off at himself that he revealed who Mek was. Before long, I believe we'll be seeing a lot of Mek.

2185
Moe in league with Mek to drive him ever further south, to the Steppe, perhaps?

It would seem Moe is definitely in league with Mek. Here's the thing though, that doesn't mean the Consult. We know Mek has flipped allegiances before and what would stop him now? I dont wanna get too far ahead, but at the end of TWP, we have Aurang flying above the carnage and he asks a simple question, "Who are the Dûnyain?". So at the very least Aurang has no clue, it makes a Dûnyain/Consult connection seem impossible.

ETA: after all, what would be more memorable than willing the Consult off the face of Earwa? Nonmen, its all about memories.

2186
H, I had the same quote highlighted in my book, I believe he is sending dreams. Also, I am going to have to take Locke's word that Kelhuss's entire journey to the barrow was conditioned and everything intentional. Because, I think that quote is a clue to Moe sending Cnauir a dream the morning he goes to the barrow.

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Why had he come here? What purpose could such a solitary pilgrimage serve? No wonder his tribe thought him mad. He was a man who took counsel with the dead rather than the wise.

This in and of itself means very little, but everytime I read that scene it strikes me, "Indeed, why did you come here Cnaüir?". It seems Moe is in league with someone to get Kelhuss as far as he did, and that quote indicates he could influence Cnaüir also. For the sending of dreams to work you have to know where the receiver sleeps. No problems there, the White Yaksh. I will warn everyone though, that this theory that Moe is in league with the Consult is very prevelant in TDTCB, not so much after this book, I looked. But, what are rereads for? I hope you guys can find some more connections.

2187
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My life, he thought. My life.
Inrau lowered his face, tried to grimace away his weeping. If only he could forget. If only . . .
The Shriah. But how could it be?

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Please! Let me forget this!

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“No different, I suppose, from what you were doing in the Shriah’s apartments, hmm?”

I could be wrong, but the writing seems to imply that this takes place right after Inrau had been looking around in the Shriah's apartments and found something that he wants to forget.

Also, thanks for the warm welcoming guys ! I am excited about the reread and hope to get to your Dunyain level.... someday lol

I wondered the same exact thing on every reread I've ever done. Its never confirmed what and your left to fill in the gap. As H said, the Scarlet Spires makes sense. But, I'm not so sure. I've previously had theories that the Dûnyain and the Consult are aligned, unbeknownst to Kelhuss. And as I'm going through my reread I can't shake that feeling again. Kel's meeting with Mek, the sranc staying away, and it seems to me that the Consult's and Dûnyain's line of thinking and goals are eerily similar. I dunno. Its just a feeling I get everytime I read TDTCB. Also, wouldn't it be great if Akka was vindicated for his initial feeling of a Maithenet/Consult alignment? Could this also have something to do with Maithenet's final words in WLW? Inrau could have found that connection.

2188
Maybe your opinion will change as you read it again. I know I felt like he was hapless on my initial read. But, maybe not. As you say he gets help along the way, and it's hard to say exactly what was or wasn't his own idea.

Right, but does it really matter if it was his idea or not? Nothing goes on without his consent. Also, the replacing of Conphas's soldiers was his idea, and the treachery he engineers with Skauras was all his idea and anything you mentioned post the unmasking of Skeaös. Xerius is brillant, it just takes a reread, or two to notice it.

ETA: welcome morkypep, never feel uncomfortable to voice your opinion, new perspectives are always great to read.

2189
Damnit. "Her night with me". So clearly written.

Yes, I was a bit upset. First, that I didn't remember that. Second, that none of my Nerdanel's ever turn out, damn.

2190
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (V)
« on: December 12, 2015, 09:58:00 pm »
That's dope, Quinthane! I was expecting a skull for him to stumble upon........

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