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The Great Ordeal / Re: (TGO SPOILERS) Ishterebinth
« Last post by Monkhound on Today at 03:59:53 pm »
Another interesting development in the Ishterebinth section:

In chapter 7, we have a PoV of Serwa in which we are explained that she sees everything as unreal/ false, and that only Father (Kellhus) is and has ever been real.

Chapter 12 ends with Serwa seeing Sorweel as real (it's even there in italics) after he intercepts the Chorae aimed at her in mid-air.
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General Earwa / Fathers in Earwa
« Last post by Madness on Today at 02:26:10 pm »
At geoffrobro's request:

While rereading, I was surprised I didn't get Achamian's explanation about how the Wathi doll works and the connection (the colors in the two passages below are the match) with both the previous Aörsi chapters (about Kellhus shredding Proyas's identity) and Mimara's Judging Eye vision about the Whale Mothers and Kellhus sitting on his black throne.
I mean, the passage even starts with the vision of Nau-Cayuti meeting Shae.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 147, all fonts except color are in the text
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
"But isn't trapping souls an ancient art?" she asked.
"It is..." Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned - and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?
One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?
"But souls are exceedingly complicated," he continued. "Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies."
Which was what made them such willful slaves.
"So to have your soul caught..." She trailed, frowning.
"Is to be twice-damned..." he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. "To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside."

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 45, all fonts except color are in the text
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead, his heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
[...]
And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat, Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat - seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.
There is a head on a pole.

I also noticed a similarity between the quotes above in red, with the quotes in purple below. It's not exactly the same, but Kellhus/ the Dunyain/ TTT as an avatar of "The guy(s) bringing Hell on Earth". Stripping everything and everyone down to its bare utility, just like the "Sons of this Place" stripping down people's Thoughts (as opposed to Souls) to the bone.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 159-161, all fonts except color are in the text
Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than puches slung about their wombs.
The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their asignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of inseminations...
Sadism without desire. Cruelty - unimaginable cruelty - absent the least will to inflict suffering.
And evil that only the Inchoroi could surpass.
And when her gaze flinches, she sees that this crim is no aberration, but rather an inevitable and extreme implication of what rules the whole. [...] The fevious pitch of intellect, domineering, devoid of compassion or humility...
And the will - the blasphemous will most of all. The deranged hunger to become God.
[...]
Suddenly she sees Him, her stepfather, Anasūrimbor Kellhus I, the Holy Aspect-Emperor, high on his throne, wreathed in darkness and fury, a malignant cancer cast across the far corners of the world...
Doom incarnate.
Suddenly she sees the Truth of the old Wizard's terror. A Dūnyain ruled the World - a Dūnyain!.

The quotes in blue also cause me to wonder if trapping souls is the way the Inchoroi made the Nonmen immortal: I mean, it would explain their damnation and why their memories fail, with Hell feasting upon them. It'd also be ironic to have the Nonmen be strung between the World and the Outside/ Hell by the Inchoroi, since they revere passages and thresholds.

Holy shit. What your saying puts A lot of other things into perspective. This need it's own thread
3
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« Last post by geoffrobro on June 25, 2017, 07:24:01 pm »
While rereading, I was surprised I didn't get Achamian's explanation about how the Wathi doll works and the connection (the colors in the two passages below are the match) with both the previous Aörsi chapters (about Kellhus shredding Proyas's identity) and Mimara's Judging Eye vision about the Whale Mothers and Kellhus sitting on his black throne.
I mean, the passage even starts with the vision of Nau-Cayuti meeting Shae.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 147, all fonts except color are in the text
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
"But isn't trapping souls an ancient art?" she asked.
"It is..." Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned - and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?
One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?
"But souls are exceedingly complicated," he continued. "Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies."
Which was what made them such willful slaves.
"So to have your soul caught..." She trailed, frowning.
"Is to be twice-damned..." he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. "To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside."

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 45, all fonts except color are in the text
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead, his heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
[...]
And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat, Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat - seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.
There is a head on a pole.

I also noticed a similarity between the quotes above in red, with the quotes in purple below. It's not exactly the same, but Kellhus/ the Dunyain/ TTT as an avatar of "The guy(s) bringing Hell on Earth". Stripping everything and everyone down to its bare utility, just like the "Sons of this Place" stripping down people's Thoughts (as opposed to Souls) to the bone.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 159-161, all fonts except color are in the text
Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than puches slung about their wombs.
The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their asignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of inseminations...
Sadism without desire. Cruelty - unimaginable cruelty - absent the least will to inflict suffering.
And evil that only the Inchoroi could surpass.
And when her gaze flinches, she sees that this crim is no aberration, but rather an inevitable and extreme implication of what rules the whole. [...] The fevious pitch of intellect, domineering, devoid of compassion or humility...
And the will - the blasphemous will most of all. The deranged hunger to become God.
[...]
Suddenly she sees Him, her stepfather, Anasūrimbor Kellhus I, the Holy Aspect-Emperor, high on his throne, wreathed in darkness and fury, a malignant cancer cast across the far corners of the world...
Doom incarnate.
Suddenly she sees the Truth of the old Wizard's terror. A Dūnyain ruled the World - a Dūnyain!.

The quotes in blue also cause me to wonder if trapping souls is the way the Inchoroi made the Nonmen immortal: I mean, it would explain their damnation and why their memories fail, with Hell feasting upon them. It'd also be ironic to have the Nonmen be strung between the World and the Outside/ Hell by the Inchoroi, since they revere passages and thresholds.

Holy shit. What your saying puts A lot of other things into perspective. This need it's own thread
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General Earwa / Re: Fan-Made Trailer for TUC/TSA
« Last post by mostly.harmless on June 25, 2017, 06:59:31 pm »
Uhm. Get this guy to do tDtCB and hopefully we see a revived interest from there. Awesome job.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« Last post by mostly.harmless on June 25, 2017, 06:44:04 pm »
Random thought I had, probably postulated by others here: could it be that Kellhus has been tethered to the outside since a certain point in the past (Daimos sessions with Iyokus?)?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« Last post by geoffrobro on June 25, 2017, 06:02:05 pm »
Very Interesting Incuroi. I like where your ideas are going
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« Last post by Anwurat on June 25, 2017, 03:47:25 pm »
There is talk in earlier books about how "when the seed is strong" the womb acts as a mere vessel. I doubt it applies to everyone, though.

Where is it said that Esmenet's father forced himself on her?
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« Last post by Monkhound on June 25, 2017, 12:13:39 pm »
While rereading, I was surprised I didn't get Achamian's explanation about how the Wathi doll works and the connection (the colors in the two passages below are the match) with both the previous Aörsi chapters (about Kellhus shredding Proyas's identity) and Mimara's Judging Eye vision about the Whale Mothers and Kellhus sitting on his black throne.
I mean, the passage even starts with the vision of Nau-Cayuti meeting Shae.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 147, all fonts except color are in the text
A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...
"But isn't trapping souls an ancient art?" she asked.
"It is..." Achamian replied. He thought of the Wathi doll he once owned - and used to save himself from the Scarlet Spires when everyone, including Esmenet, had thought him dead. He had been reluctant, then, to think of the proxy that had been trapped within it. Had it suffered? Was it yet another of his multitudinous sins?
One more blemish for Mimara to glimpse with her Judging Eye?
"But souls are exceedingly complicated," he continued. "Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies."
Which was what made them such willful slaves.
"So to have your soul caught..." She trailed, frowning.
"Is to be twice-damned..." he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. "To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside."

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 45, all fonts except color are in the text
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart - for unlike the Countless Dead, his heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
[...]
And he sees that these things are meat, here. Love is meat, Hope is meat. Courage. Outrage. Anguish. All these things are meat - seared over fire, sucked clean of grease.
There is a head on a pole.

I also noticed a similarity between the quotes above in red, with the quotes in purple below. It's not exactly the same, but Kellhus/ the Dunyain/ TTT as an avatar of "The guy(s) bringing Hell on Earth". Stripping everything and everyone down to its bare utility, just like the "Sons of this Place" stripping down people's Thoughts (as opposed to Souls) to the bone.

Quote from: TGO hardcover page 159-161, all fonts except color are in the text
Women bred into monstrous instruments of procreation, until they had become little more than puches slung about their wombs.
The misery. The huffing and moaning. The mewling screams. The inhuman men filing to their asignations, utterly heartless and insensate. The slapping of hip and genitalia. The animality of coupling stripped to its essential germ, to the milking pitch of inseminations...
Sadism without desire. Cruelty - unimaginable cruelty - absent the least will to inflict suffering.
And evil that only the Inchoroi could surpass.
And when her gaze flinches, she sees that this crim is no aberration, but rather an inevitable and extreme implication of what rules the whole. [...] The fevious pitch of intellect, domineering, devoid of compassion or humility...
And the will - the blasphemous will most of all. The deranged hunger to become God.
[...]
Suddenly she sees Him, her stepfather, Anasūrimbor Kellhus I, the Holy Aspect-Emperor, high on his throne, wreathed in darkness and fury, a malignant cancer cast across the far corners of the world...
Doom incarnate.
Suddenly she sees the Truth of the old Wizard's terror. A Dūnyain ruled the World - a Dūnyain!.

The quotes in blue also cause me to wonder if trapping souls is the way the Inchoroi made the Nonmen immortal: I mean, it would explain their damnation and why their memories fail, with Hell feasting upon them. It'd also be ironic to have the Nonmen be strung between the World and the Outside/ Hell by the Inchoroi, since they revere passages and thresholds.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
« Last post by incuroi on June 24, 2017, 11:12:47 pm »
sorry for the late response but here's what i meant by the whale mother issue.

See this whole time we worked under the assumption that fertility in earwa works that same as the way it does on earth, which is why the issue of whale mothers doesn't make sense, but in one line in chapter 2 of the unholy consult Kayutas states that women are soil for men's seed which is why Moenghus's assumption that he looks like Esmenet doesn't make since and also why he look mostly like Cnaiur and not Serwa. Everyone in earwa are their father's children.

in fact rereading the books there is almost never an example of a character looking like their mother, they always resemble their father. if we therefore follow with the assumption that men are the givers of life and women just carry the children to term than the conundrum we've been suffering makes sense. The reason why serwe and theli don't make sense in the face of our knowledge about the whale mothers is not because of some hereditary exception with them being half-dunyain allowing them to still be functional, instead there is no such thing as a half-dunyain. The children of Khellus are full dunyain born to poor soil i.e Esmenet, she is one of the few human to be fertile enough ground to carry one to term, most simply don't or are born deformed, but she is still poor ground for dunyain seed compared to a whale mother. In the case of the whale mothers the reason they can birth dunyain children without them so much as resembling whale mothers is because again children take on their fathers trait not their mothers. As for how whale mothers are made? i'm guessing there is one male germ amongst the duyain that carries the trait for wide hips and short limb and that germ is used to produce more whale mothers and nothing else, women born to whale mother but not having that trait i'm guessing are either made useful or disposed of. When you think about it, early in the series we have multiple people commenting on how khellus looks like celmomas, why is that? for the same reason as all the other people, they are their fathers children.

but one issue has been bothering me since following this train of thought, one splintering issue. the only person that i know of in the whole series to be described as looking like their mother is Mimara, and at first that was a hole in my reasoning. Then it hit me! Mimara does not look like Esmenet, she looks like Esmenet's father. Mimara is not just Esmenet's daughter she is also her sister, both are of the same father, it was even mentioned early in the series that Esmenet's father forced himself on her, Mimara is the child of rape/incest. This whole time the reason Esmi didn't want to tell Mimara the identity of her father is because it's her grandfather, and that realization would only be further heartbreak for Mimara, and in Mimara's mind another reason why Esmenet sold her, and another crime Mimara can levy on her. Worst if we follow that train Mimara is reenacting that very situation with Acha without even knowing it.       
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The Thousandfold Thought / Re: Saubon v. Conphas (And Other Considerations)
« Last post by Madness on June 24, 2017, 10:34:20 pm »
Lol, MSJ, I assume Ferdinand is autocorrect for Kellhus ;)?

I will preface this post by suggesting that this conversation ultimately is a question of how much of what we're debating Kellhus had mapped out or whether, as Walter suggested, that Kellhus ultimately would have lost to the Nansur/Fanim at Shimeh without Achamian's presence at the hilltop shrine.

Walter, rather than break down your post (I have a couple contentions with how you describe (OT) and (A)) I'll write out where I think we disagreed in our conversation in Quorum.

Firstly, if Achamian is not there, he doesn't stall the Nansur. We talked about how I figure Conphas would have established command on that hilltop and then sent his columns forward - merchant had some great quotes regarding figures and deployment in Quorum, it'd be nice if he (or someone) could quote them in thread as I lack my books. Poor recall on my part but I believe that means he's got at least some cavalry in the column with him and then three other columns coming up behind him. Without Achamian there, as far as I see it, Conphas deploys immediately.

Secondly, if Conphas isn't stalled by Achamian, when does Saubon hit Conphas? You and I disagreed on the timeline here, though, I don't especially think it matters. I argued in (A) that Conphas is killed in the same way he is in (OT) when Achamian is present, except that Conphas is just sitting there with his guard, trumpeters or flag-bearers, and Cememketri, as he'll have sent his own column forward as well. In the extreme version of my case, I argued that the columns would already be engaged with the Holy War and leaderless when Saubon and his portion of the Galeoth contingent strike them in the back, splitting the Nansur engagement to two fronts.

However, in the case above or in your suggestion (B) that Saubon ends up engaging Conphas' whole four columns before they move against the Holy War, I still think you give the Saik and the Nansur too much credit to their ability - though, you'd still have to account for me why you think Conphas would have just stood around waiting to get hit by Saubon in (B). merchant also brought up in his quotes in Quorum that one column straight up breaks and runs as soon as Conphas is taken out by Saubon so the Nansur discipline isn't as strong as you make it either.

There's also the issue of split fronts, cavalry, and Chorae. Now again, I'll have to rely on merchant (or others) for quotes but if there are four Saik and Cememketri with Conphas in one column, we can probably assume that he's got in the range of 12-20 sorcerers-of-rank split among his columns. We don't have a good indication of Saubon's forces or Chorae, unfortunately, but we can guess that the between the Holy War and Saubon's forces there are that many Chorae kicking around - the Holy War was already proving a boon to the Scarlet Spires against the Cishaurim and I made the argument that clearly the Inrithi had figured out some tradition of warring against Schools because they did so successfully during the Scholastic Wars. I assume that the Saik, like the Nansur, will be sufficiently engaged with the Holy War and Saubon is going to make a good dent into the Nansur's flank before anyone even realizes what's going on (especially, in (A) if Conphas dies by Saubon's hand before the Galeoth engage the Nansur).

Lol, kk, I think that's it. Sorry it took time to come back around to the conversation, Walter ;).

Hopefully, Wilshire will be drawn back in soon.
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