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I really liked this series of live-reading comments (wish I had thought to do the same, but I read way too quickly for that). I know I haven't commented on the other ones, but I just couldn't come up with anything good to add to the conversation.
Here are some comments for the final edition, though:

I guess Esmenet still loves Kelmomas, but that’s very understandable as she is like most mothers and they tend to love their children.

“Love no one but your children. On that front, a mother has no choice.” Cersei wasn’t off that on that.

Very much agree, this was probably one of the things that made Esmenet remain a sympathetic character for me. Yes, I completely understand where you and other fans are coming from with your complaints (no idea why she might be saved, for instance...). She did go through some terrible times with losing not one, not two but three of her children in quick succession over the course of TAE. And finding out one of her other children was responsible (or partially responsible at least, in some cases) had to have been a very hard thing to come to terms with. Can't definitely fault her for still loving Kelmomas despite everything.


Insanity is Holy, being scranc is human. Can’t eat Sranc? Eat HUMANS as horses taste like shit. Eat radioactive HUMANS! Yea, you won’t get contaminated. Surrrrre.

That would be something to be worried about in normal circumstances, but sadly, it was not like Proyas would ever live long enough to be affected by eating a man dying from radiation sickness. The same probably goes for everyone else who ate the Scalded, it's very likely all ended up being killed by the No-God before they had any chance to start feeling the effects of radiation poisoning.


1. I spent way too much time harping on one of Proyas’s flashbacks. Honestly, I can see why his father loved him from afar as Proyas the Judge can be VERY difficult to deal with. However, I do understand Proyas’s outrage at the execution of the sons from a rival house. I think most people would be pretty outraged. The problem is that Proyas came to the WRONG conclusion, imo. The problem is that there were too many unknowns. How old were those sons? Were they old enough to even understand what is going on? What were they like? Patterns of behavior? ALL of this can matter a great deal. It helps to have information to determine what the best course of action is.

“What has come before” has shown that there have been instances where mercy didn’t result in anything terrible, even if the person treated with mercy didn’t deserve it. There have been times when mercy has bitten people in the ass. Same with being ruthless. Sometimes, it DOES yield the best results, but it can also make things worse.

Claiming that sparing the sons would have led to revolt/vengeance is an UNKNOWN. People do tend to fear the unknown so it looks like Proyas’s father was playing it safe, which is VERY understandable. The problem is, you don’t need the sons for revolt. I don’t think that happened in Conriya though and even if it did, it might have been unrelated. We simply don’t know what the rival family was like in general.

The thing is, in this kind of world and the kind of society they lived in, wiping out the rival line was the best course of action for Proyas' father. Ruthless and overly cruel? Sure. But there would always be that chance of those sons avenging their father (or growing up to do so if they were too young at the time). Proyas' father had to consider that his own line would never be safe while members of the other family remained.


The Unholy Consult. Tapping out. I’m done. One of the few books that has broken me. Probably the only one I STOPPED reading out of anger. In the other cases, it’s because I was bored/uninterested. I do encourage others to keep going and read the other books, but I decided to peek ahead and went right in to spoiler territory and decided “NOPE.” So, here are my final comments. I don’t think anyone will be able to convince me to continue, but good luck trying. @missbeckywrites “wins” this one as she was able to finish, but I am certain that I am done.

I'm sorry this was how TSA ultimately ended for you, but yes, better to stop reading a series that you cannot enjoy anymore than to keep reading and hating it. I'm glad you're still active in the community, though! :)


Well, turns out that you need an Anasurimbor to become/activate the No God. I rolled my eyes so damned much, they turned into slot machines. But, I will admit that it DID answer my question about Nay-Cayuti and what he was doing with the Consult.

I'm still stubbornly keeping to the idea that we don't know with absolute certainty that an Anasûrimbor is needed to activate the No-God. Sure, Wilshire made a good point in the Quorum that they inserted thousands of other people over the centuries, none of which worked and none of which were Anasûrimbor (as far as we know, at least...). I keep wondering if there may be another factor (or more than one) that we're not seeing/don't know about yet.
Nau-Cayûti was not abducted by the Consult in order to be placed in the Carapace, though. They wanted to question him about the Heron Spear and where Seswatha had hidden it (it's stated outright in one of those dreams Achamian has in TAE, can't remember in which book, though). Since that went nowhere, after torturing him for an unknown amount of time, they just decided to put him into the Carapace as they were already doing with other prisoners. Luckily for them, it worked.


2. Cnaiur is pretty much nothing to me now. At least in the first trilogy, he had some redeeming qualities/humanity, but now it looks like he’s a complete monster. Much as I am fascinated by insanity, he is just too much now. Still, him facing the No-God was pretty damned awesome, but he no longer matters to me. The Ordeal being wiped out? Good! Fuck them too. Fuck them all!
6. Cnauir started getting old when he’s reduced to someone who is nothing but an insane person who does insane things because he is insane. Yes, he’s the most VIOLENT OF MEN. We get it, but at least he had redeeming qualities in the PON. Here? Nah. Go away. I do find it sad that he goes from “No harm must come to Proyas” changes to “BURN HIM! RAWR!” Then again, a lot can happen in 20 years, including the Scylvendi suffering greatly at the hands of the New Empire. I wonder what happened to the Scylvendi scion. Tinnurit? Was he a son a Cnaiur? Would explain quite a bit if he was.

I agree with you on Cnaiür - he was a morally very dark grey character in PON, but there were redeeming characteristics there, at least. Now there's nothing left but his all-consuming hatred. I also liked seeing his confrontation with the No-God, but aside from that, it's not like I was particularly overjoyed by his return after seeing how he had changed.
If I remember correctly, Tinnurit was from the Akkunihor tribe, not the Utemot - so likely not a relation of Cnaiür's, but could possibly be Xunnurit's son (or grandson). They even have similar names, which shows up often with family members in this series (Harweel and Sorweel, for instance).


3. So, Kellhus is defeated in the cheapest way possible. Kelmomas shows up because Esmenet enables him to escape and this distracts Kellhus in the Golden Room. Because of this, a skin spy uses a Chorae to turn him into pillar of salt. Wonderful. Some say that he is indeed dead and others think that he’s around in spirit or something. Kellhus was also apparently possessed/working with Ajokli. Welp, that would certainly explain a lot. But, have a FUCK YOU anyway and good riddance. I hope Proyas roasts your ass on a spit in hell.

I would argue that this was not the cheapest way possible for Kellhus to be defeated (but we're all entitled to our own opinions, of course). According to Bakker, Kellhus was not aware Ajokli was taking over. He kept ignoring that increasingly growing darkness/misinterpreting it as something else (feelings for Esmenet...). Ultimately, he thought himself infallible and did not take everything/everyone into account when coming up with his plans as he should have. I think that much like Moënghus the Elder and the original Consult, that was the cause of his downfall.
Good riddance indeed!


6. Serwa fought quite well. Proved to be awesome in fighting the dragon, but it’s uncertain if she survives or not. I don’t care either way.

As I've said before in this forum, I really grew to like the character of Serwa in this last book. She was pretty amazing, and while I think her injuries were too severe for even a half-Dûnyain to survive in a post-apocalyptic world, I still hope she will be around in the next series.


Kayutas can go rot and I hope he ended up with a terrible a fate as Proyas. He did the same things Proyas did. He knew that it was planned, he was involved and yet, he seems to skate and end up as Exalt-General. Fuck that.

Agree 100%, I always found him boring and he did benefit quite a lot from setting up Proyas as the scapegoat. Seriously, fuck that guy.


7. I was ready to accept that Proyas would most likely die. I somehow knew it, but I honestly expected it to happen at the very end and NOT LIKE THAT. He was broken emotionally and raped by Kellhus, set up to make some depraved decisions, and then he is scapegoated as a “betrayer”. He is eventually strangled to death by Moenghus because the alternative was to be burnt alive in the Umbilicous. Such BULLSHIT. Unnecessary, unbelievable bullshit! He was WAY too good a character to simply throw away like that. I know all about “bla bla realism, life’s not fair, grimdark, shit happens, subversions, inversions, aversions horeshit”, but the problem is that such things aren’t always a good idea. Different doesn’t mean better. Gritty realism doesn’t always make for GOOD TV, let alone literature.

I did like Proyas, while not to the extent that you did, and so felt very angry/frustrated at his fate. Not enough to stop reading by any means, but it was still sad to see him go.
It was still better for Moënghus to have mercy killed him than to have him burn to death. And it's not like he would have survived those injuries anyway. Kellhus strung him up in such a way as to have him survive longer, I believe, not really minimize the damage done but to prolong his suffering.


1. I wonder what happens to someone inserted into the No God. I’m assuming that they become vegetative as they are basically a human battery for the sarcophagus. Maybe it’s like the Matrix? I doubt it. I think Kelmomas as we know him(the one who was so fun at first, but got boring) is dead. Good riddance, kiddo. The No God is so much more interesting anyway.

That's an interesting possibility. I always thought it was something like the person being still conscious and in total sensory deprivation, which resulted in the "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" and "WHAT AM I?" questions.
Kelmomas as we knew him is probably gone, yes. Now let's just hope that the No-God lives up to the expectations.


2. I wonder what the living twin’s name will be? Whatever he is, he will clearly be the result of TWO “few” people(one a magic user and the other the keeper of the Judging Eye), the crackie of Cleric and Cujara'Cinmoi, Esmenet and whoever Mimara’s actual father is(I don’t actually believe it’s Achamian). It’s easy to assume that it’ll be a new character. But, there’s a chance that it might not be.

Some say that it might be Kellhus and that was shot down by Bakker himself. Then again, who knows with him? But, a “baby Kellhus” would be a bit infuriating. He’s “dead, but not done”, but I doubt that it means that he will be around in body in The No God. Unless, there’s another Kellhus somewhere. He might be an “Ascendant” like in Malazan, but this isn’t Malazan. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he was and ended up among the 100 or a Demon/Angelic Lord of some sort. But, the Kellhus we know and have grown to hate iZ DED. No baby Kellhus.

Anyway, I have imagined the twins being named “Proyas and Inrau.” Awww…you know, after Achamian’s two students, but thanks to the NO GOD and the Judging Eye, one babby was born dead. I do suspect that the living baby may be a rebirth of SOMEONE as I do think that reincarnation/rebirth do exist. Who? Honestly, it could be anyone.
So, what if…the baby is PROYAS reborn? Because I am almost positive that Proyas dies(sad trombone) before that baby was born. Maybe someone plucked him out of damnation just in time and shoved him into the baby. Oh man…please let this be true. It would be the only arguement that could convince me to resume the Unholy Consult. That, and if Damnation proved to be a giant Gwar concert. ;)

I think it’d be great and hilarious(in a good way) because he goes from being a Conriyan King born of Royalty as a Nersei to someone who is now the SON of Achamian rather than an old surrogate son/former student. He would also be the son of the one who bears the Judging Eye(you know JUDGE PROYAS would love to have that), the grandson of the woman who bore Mimara along with the one who would become the No God, and stepgrandson of none other than Anasurimbor Kellhus.

And then, he gets to bear witness to EVERY THING again AS A BABY. So, whatever happens during the course of the new trilogy, he’s basically a Malowebi, except that he will be growing and would possibly have sorcery. But, he will spend much of his time generally being powerless, I’m sure. :( Like, if things do happen to his family thanks to the failure of the Ordeal, he wouldn’t be able to stop it.

Proyas the sorcerer. I’ve talked about this before, but I always thought it would be ironic if he WAS among the few? Now? He can’t use “BLEAAGH BLASPHEMY” to get out of it. Not with Achamian as his actual father. Not with how every thing has changed. Not with the No God and the scranc horde swirling around. Only thing is, I can’t see Proyas really being compatible with the Gnosis. The Gnosis is supposed to be for less emotional people. People like Achamian at the most emotional. So, what magic would fit him? Anagogic? Nah. Daimos? LOL NO. Quya? That’s for Nonmen. But, Cisharum. You know, the snek people. YES! Magic that is based on PASSION, something Proyas always had a ton of. Dragons are related to snakes. :) I think it would be PERFECT for him.

You know, after reading TUC I wondered if Achamian would name his son Proyas. Proyas named his after Xinemus, it would be very fitting. I always thought of the other twin as being a girl, but their gender is never actually mentioned so it's mostly a headcanon thing on my part.
As much as I consider the Baby Kellhus theory amusing, I don't think it will be an actual thing. Baby Proyas, now that would be a more interesting idea. Not going to lie, I'd actually like to see that happen in the story.
Though, if the No-God is going to start weeks after TUC ended, it'd not be likely that we'd get to experience that in any meaningful way, as the baby would probably stay a baby for the whole series...


3. I have failed to mention poor Sorweel. It’s made clear that Zsoronga and Serwa were his “last straws”. I do think Zsoronga’s death was bullshit as he had no way of knowing what his father had done, but at least his served a clear purpose: it got Sorweel off his ass to become the White Luck Warrior. Too bad he was killed by Kelmomas! BOO!! HISS! But, that chorae? Was that the one that killed Kellhus or cost Serwa her arm? At least Sorweel was saved by Yatwer, but he still got shafted BIG TIME.

I’d also like to point out that if SORWEEL was able to figure out that Proyas got scapegoated, then I’m pretty sure that people like Achamian, Esmenet and Mimara can figure it out too. No way they’ll believe that Proyas was ever a Consult anything. Given what happened, he might as well have joined the Consult. >:(

Poor Sorweel indeed, though his death is easy to forget among everything else that goes on. :( Hopefully his afterlife will not be too bad (opinions differ on what Yatwer's corner of the Outside may be like).
I think his Chorae was the same one that was used against Serwa because of the way it seems to appear from nowhere. The one that killed Kellhus was probably just a regular one.
I don't think Achamian, Esmenet and Mimara are going to be fooled by the "Proyas was a Consult agent" excuse either. That might not come up unless they decide to join forces with Proyas' family, though, as they do have more pressing concerns at this point.


2. I think Miramis, the wife of Proyas, is going to be more prominent. I don’t know what she’s like, but if she’s anything like Uncle Saubon, then I think that she will be a problem. However, she will be a problem that NO ONE will see coming. Esmenet considers her an ally, but who knows now? There is no way in hell Miramis will believe that Proyas was a Consult traitor and whatever happens, I think she will put up a big fight that will prove crippling for those fighting the No-God. She might even end up on the side of the Consult. Proyas wouldn’t have wanted it that way, but he’s dead, so it might not matter to her. She would also be unlike powerless Naree in that Esmenet will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to kill her if any treachery is involved. Even if Miramis is defeated, it will be a phyricc victory. Maybe a Mimara vs. Miramis swordfight? OHHH!! I’d like to see that.

Like I said though, I don’t know what she’s like. Maybe she only acted like she loved Proyas for whatever reason and is relieved that he’s gone. Maybe she’ll be broken and resigned with no choice but to go with whatever others want. She could just as easily be an ally to Esmenet/Akka/Mimara as an enemy.

As for the children, Thalia could be a parallel to Ieva, wife of Nay-Cayuti. Thalia ends up forced to marry Kayutas, who would now be the Aspect Emperor unless Esmenet tells him to get bent. Either way, they marry and don’t like each other very much. I think the difference is that Thalia will fail in the objective to bringing another No-God to the Consult. Nay-Cayuti wasn’t Dunyain, Kayutas is, so he will be able to detect any animosity pretty easily.

Xinemus? I have no idea. At best, he’s among the heroes doing heroic things and lives happily ever after as Crown Prince or King. At worst, he pays the price for Proyas even though he might not have many memories of his father. Same goes for Thalia. Maybe Akka can help here.

There’s just too many unknowns with Proyas’s family. It’s possible that nothing will happen to them, but will also never be all that prominent in the story. Yea, right.

I wonder about Proyas' family too, it's almost impossible to try to figure out what they might be like given the little information we have. I think we might see them if Achamian, Esmenet and Mimara try to get the survivors to band together. Esmenet does appear to have a good relationship with Miramis, after all.
Since Proyas did not seem to be around much and barely knew his children, I doubt there will be any attempt to avenge him (at least on the children's parts) unless it's coming from a place of generalized family loyalty rather than personal feelings. But who can know either way.
I liked the idea of the possible Iëva/Thaila parallel (I have quite a few Iëva feelings) but she's way too young for that (going by the dates of birth given in the glossary, Xinemus and Thaila are only 11 and 9 respectively). And we don't seem to be getting a significant time skip, so that's probably not going to happen. (As an aside, it's a bit odd that it took so long for Proyas and Miramis to have children since he was probably in his mid-to-late 40s by TUC - he was said to be close to Conphas' age in PON - and Miramis is 42 going by the glossary. You'd think that as a king, he'd need some heirs as soon as possible.)
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Literature / Re: Yearly Targets (2017) - Totals and Specifics
« Last post by MSJ on December 11, 2017, 12:52:45 am »
Scratch that, going back to Coldfire Trilogy.
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The Unholy Consult / Tumblr Reactions: The Unholy Rage Quit, among other things...
« Last post by Dora Vee on December 10, 2017, 08:20:04 pm »
https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/165528152293/the-aspect-emperor-book-4

The Unholy Consult. 10% Complete.

1. Moenghus finally gets a POV. I wonder if he’ll ever meet Cnaiur. I wonder what that will be like. The things he went through. Yikes. As for Sorweel and Serwa, that’s not a surprise. Looks like they’re heading either for Dagliash or “The Field Appalling.” Good luck either way.

2. LOL! Figures. “The Empire has served it’s purpose.” There was a theory that the Empire was being used for an additional army when the first Great Ordeal finally falls, but I think that went out the window. Kellhus knew that it would fall no matter WHO was in charge, but to have Esmenet holding the bag? No wonder she’s pissed. I doubt anyone would miss it though. I guess the capital will be moving to Sumna. Lol. I guess Esmenet still loves Kelmomas, but that’s very understandable as she is like most mothers and they tend to love their children.

“Love no one but your children. On that front, a mother has no choice.” Cersei wasn’t off that on that.

Hopefully, keeping Kel alive won’t bite Esme in the ass. Pretty sure she’ll be seeing Achamian again, but I think that ship has long sailed and sunk. :(

3. Oh dear…I just did something I shouldn’t have done. I went over to the Second Apocalypse forums and found an interesting theory: Proyas is being set up  to BECOME THE NEXT NO-GOD. Oh man…just reading it as a theory is SHOCKING. If this is the case, then all I can think of is this: WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW!!! And I would love every second of it because it’s so DAMNED fitting. A religious zealot turning into well, the opposite of it. Instead of eliminating life itself, it would eliminate FAITH! By doing that, the Gods would die. That is, if they need faith to be sustained. A balance between emotions and logic is also a possibility. But, it’s only a theory and it’s not uncommon for theories to get shot down.

If Proyas does in fact die, but becomes the No God, then I would LOVE that for the delicious irony, at the very least.

I actually found that theory while looking for comments about Kayutas/Proyas. Show of hands, who was surprised at that sausage fest? I do think Proyas is doing the best he can given the circumstances. Yes, he is becoming insane with his addiction of THE MEAT, but he is still aware of how horrifying it all really is and yet he figures that he might as well succumb to it. He’s addicted to the seeing fire too. Can’t blame him for that. 

The Great Ordeal has become the Great Bedlam and now even worse since they’ve run out of their precious meat. ALL IN FRONT OF GOLGOTTERATH. The Consult doesn’t have to do much at all. They can just watch as every one eats each other and suffers from withdrawals and hunger. Oh, but I’m sure Kellhus will return right at that moment.

Someone give Proyas a hug. He’s been crying so much. :(

4. Poor Akka. Still blames himself for Inrau’s death. Mimara is right though. Anyway, they are at Dagliash and I don’t doubt that they will be shocked at what they see.


https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/165537977668/the-aspect-emperor-book-4

The Unholy Consult. I got two words for this: JESUS CHRIST. 14% complete.

1. Like I said, Proyas isn’t afraid of sticking his foot up someone’s ass if he has to. Yea, he certainly did what “must be done” and steered as best he could(I think the Steersman if a fitting nickname for him). Oi. But, he is clearly someone who is insane and an insane Proyas is a truly terrifying person. I’d like to think that he’s trying to keep his sanity but ACT insane for the Horde, but it looks like that hasn’t worked out unless he’s a damned good actor. He is smart, that’s for sure, so it’s possible.

You can’t deal with crazy people the same way you deal with normal people.

I got irritated with the flaying alive shit and felt slightly sorry for the people being falsely accused of leading the rebellion. I bet most of the guilty ones skated. But, it didn’t matter because as Proyas said, “someone had to die.” And I UNDERSTAND that it was in “accordance with the Law” (Esmenet does the same thing. Even Kellhus said that ‘we must act according to the ages’), but I think beheadings or hangings would have been just as sufficient. Those corpses can still be eaten.

I also tend to get irritated with the “authority requires fear” thing, BUT I understand why it can be necessary, especially when you’re dealing with a bunch of assholes. Sometimes you have to deal with certain people in the only language they understand and Proyas speaks that language quite well when need be. Not that he’s the only one, but he’s still my favorite of them, despite nomming someone alive and cumming while doing so. It has to do with the fact that he STILL wants respect instead of just fear. That even though his heart was torn out of his asshole, there is still blood beating there, that there is still some shred of humanity.

Good god…so crazy and yet so beautifully poetic.

I think the mutiny was a set up of some sort. It’s clear that Proyas knew it would happen because the Horde is like child Daria screaming “Punishment time! It’s punishment time!” A lot of people wanted some SKIN! What do you think happened with the corpses who were flayed alive? NOM.

And through all this, Proyas is STILL thinking of Achamian and what a revelation. The blasphemy had nothing to do with sorcery and everything to do with the “kind” of love Proyas possibly felt about Achamian. That can happen sometimes. It would explain how Proyas often felt so awful about what happened to Achamian. What NOW though?

Insanity is Holy, being scranc is human. Can’t eat Sranc? Eat HUMANS as horses taste like shit. Eat radioactive HUMANS! Yea, you won’t get contaminated. Surrrrre.

Proyas is going to die. I don’t think there’s any getting around this. Achamian will lose his first student. :( The only question now is how? Eaten alive? Flayed? Radiation sickness? Killed by someone? Being careless. :(

https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/165601846883/the-aspect-emperor-book-4

The Unholy Consult 20% Complete.

1. I spent way too much time harping on one of Proyas’s flashbacks. Honestly, I can see why his father loved him from afar as Proyas the Judge can be VERY difficult to deal with. However, I do understand Proyas’s outrage at the execution of the sons from a rival house. I think most people would be pretty outraged. The problem is that Proyas came to the WRONG conclusion, imo. The problem is that there were too many unknowns. How old were those sons? Were they old enough to even understand what is going on? What were they like? Patterns of behavior? ALL of this can matter a great deal. It helps to have information to determine what the best course of action is.

“What has come before” has shown that there have been instances where mercy didn’t result in anything terrible, even if the person treated with mercy didn’t deserve it. There have been times when mercy has bitten people in the ass. Same with being ruthless. Sometimes, it DOES yield the best results, but it can also make things worse.

Claiming that sparing the sons would have led to revolt/vengeance is an UNKNOWN. People do tend to fear the unknown so it looks like Proyas’s father was playing it safe, which is VERY understandable. The problem is, you don’t need the sons for revolt. I don’t think that happened in Conriya though and even if it did, it might have been unrelated. We simply don’t know what the rival family was like in general.

Proyas IS, however, right that piety does tend to oversimplify. He FINALLY admitted that. It’s all over the place in the Bible. “You’re either good or evil”, “black and white”, etc. The problem is, you don’t need religion to think that way. You also don’t need to be “simple” or “enslaved” to be “certain” of what is “holy” or “virtuous”. I contend that many “Lords of Men” consider themselves 100% right and never consider “holiness” and “virtue” a riddle of any sort. They can be just as certain in their righteousness as anyone else. Proyas himself proved that. This guy was a highly educated PRINCE and yet he was more zealous and certain of his righteousness than all of the uneducated/poor/enslaved/“simple” COMBINED. Hell, he probably put other zealots to shame, I bet!

I think that when he mentioned the simple and/or enslaved, he was including himself in that group because he did admit to being a willing slave and when he was in Templar mode, black/white absolute thinking was all he engaged in. Achamian and Xinemus seemed to have been the only exceptions to this. Anytime he had doubts, it was all about Achamian. Then again, he was greatly affected by the sacking of Carythusal.

His tragic flaw, imo, is that he spent WAY to long thinking that you need THIS ONE RELIGION to be a good person. All else is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. He is finally broken of it. The way it happened was no doubt PAINFUL and very upsetting, but the point is that the zealotry that made him so blind looks to be gone. And replaced with insanity. LOLOL!!

He was UNHINGED when Serwa and Sorweel found him. Jesus…can you imagine? Even Serwa was horrified. Didn’t take much for Sorweel to figure it all out through: SRANC MEAT!

Anyway, I think that when the father said that “Power is damnation”, I think it’s because he honestly feels like he deserves to be damned. :( The problem with Earwa and the Gods of that world is that it’s all too easy to be damned. Too many rules. And people can be damned for being BORN with sorcery. Ridiculous!

2. Achamian was right to be worried in the flashback. Religious fanatics are generally AWFUL rulers even if they do mean well. I think Proyas would have been great for the True Believers, but a nightmare for those he found suspicious and, of course, the non-believers. He wasn’t around most of the time as King, but I doubt the regent and/or his Queen would have acted any differently.

God damn I talk a lot about Proyas….and he is such a mess now that the MEAT is wearing off…

3. Sorweel/Zsoronga? Oookay. I appreciate that Zeum is more accepting of homosexuality, but I felt kind of odd about them being together in that way. Still, it was very touching and I was wondering how Zsoronga was doing. I knew he was somewhere. I just didn’t know where. I wonder how long he will last? :(

4. Cnaiur! Shine on, you crazy diamond! I knew Moenghus didn’t die and I KNEW they would meet! Nothing says reunion like getting the shit beat out of you. They’ll most likely end up working together.

5. The reason why people in Golgotterath are not attacking is because quite frankly, they don’t have to. Yea, I’m sure that the Consult is quaking in their boots over some loudmouth rider. OHHH! The circumfix! Yea, I bet they’re just scared. Riiiiiight.

https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/165609366143/the-aspect-emperor-book-4

The Unholy Consult. 25% Complete.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW FUCKING FURIOUS I AM RIGHT NOW. I AM SERIOUSLY TEMPTED TO STOP READING. NOW I KNOW HOW @missbeckywrites feels! I AM PISSED BEYOND ALL REASON. I tried to peek ahead, but it’s not much of a comfort. I can’t find what I’m looking for.

NOT LIKE THIS! NOT LIKE THIS!

https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/165637663848/the-aspect-emperor-book-4


The Unholy Consult. Tapping out. I’m done. One of the few books that has broken me. Probably the only one I STOPPED reading out of anger. In the other cases, it’s because I was bored/uninterested. I do encourage others to keep going and read the other books, but I decided to peek ahead and went right in to spoiler territory and decided “NOPE.” So, here are my final comments. I don’t think anyone will be able to convince me to continue, but good luck trying. @missbeckywrites “wins” this one as she was able to finish, but I am certain that I am done.

I agree with this: “If you read the other books, skip this, imagine your own ending, and save your money.” I also agree that “There are way too many other books in the world. Why waste your time reading one you don’t love?”

Anyway,

1. There is really no fixing this world. I keep asking that even if you do succeed, what then? What kind of world would it be? Even the Consult wins and quite frankly, I’m glad they do, what happens then? Outside sealed, no damned, but what about those who are already damned? And what happens to the 144,000 people? Will they build a world worth a shit? How are they going to do that with a Consult victory? Because, the Consult do win and they were taken over by the Dunyain. Seems that Kelmomas was the No God after all or at least the catalyst. I did wonder about that because Nay-cayuti was taken by Consult and I wondered if someone like him was necessary for the No God to awaken. Or, if he was someone perfect to BECOME the No God.

Well, turns out that you need an Anasurimbor to become/activate the No God. I rolled my eyes so damned much, they turned into slot machines. But, I will admit that it DID answer my question about Nay-Cayuti and what he was doing with the Consult.

As for the world being saved, the problem is that the issue of eternal damnation for MANY people would still be there. Unless the new world makes it difficult to be damned for eternity. Or damnation is more like prison: spend some time there and then you are released.

It just seems that either way is just AWFUL. I thought that there might be a “third option” of some sort as I know it’s been theorized, but I guess not. The bottom line is that even is the No God is stopped, if the Gods/Demons are not somehow eliminated, then you just have more of the same thing.

2. Cnaiur is pretty much nothing to me now. At least in the first trilogy, he had some redeeming qualities/humanity, but now it looks like he’s a complete monster. Much as I am fascinated by insanity, he is just too much now. Still, him facing the No-God was pretty damned awesome, but he no longer matters to me. The Ordeal being wiped out? Good! Fuck them too. Fuck them all!

3. So, Kellhus is defeated in the cheapest way possible. Kelmomas shows up because Esmenet enables him to escape and this distracts Kellhus in the Golden Room. Because of this, a skin spy uses a Chorae to turn him into pillar of salt. Wonderful. Some say that he is indeed dead and others think that he’s around in spirit or something. Kellhus was also apparently possessed/working with Ajokli. Welp, that would certainly explain a lot. But, have a FUCK YOU anyway and good riddance. I hope Proyas roasts your ass on a spit in hell.

4. While it’s nice to see that Achamian, Mimara and Esmenet manage to survive, I think it’s too little, too late. Achamian has been my favorite character for quite sometime and Mimara is best girl, but they seemed to have faded away as time went on. Proyas ended up emerging as my favorite. Achamian and Proyas tend to be tied. Here’s the thing though, I do recall claiming that I would stop reading if Achamian died. That might have been true in the first trilogy and up to White Luck Warrior, but once the Great Ordeal happened, both him and Mimara just kind of faded a bit. In the Unholy Consult, people have claimed that Akka, Esmenet and Mimara might as well have stayed home.

As for Proyas, if I haven’t said it before, I’ll say it now: I spent a lot of time worrying about his fate and I recall thinking that if he dies, then I will stop reading. Guess what happened? However, I also said that if Mimara and Achamian remained, then I would continue. But, I proved that in this case, I AM FULL OF SHIT.

5. So Esmenet is “saved”? She gets to go to heaven while all too many people are damned? That bugged me. Don’t get me wrong, I would have been sad if she died/is damned, but she did things that were similar to both Kellhus and Proyas, but for pettier reasons and yet SHE is saved? Bakker admitted that the gods save who they will which tells me that it’s either like a random lottery or being “saved” is based on who the gods like no matter who does what. Others claim that it’s because she may be an avatar of the fortune Goddess. Some say that’s only because she gave birth to Mimara. Whatever the case, I…well…I stopped caring all that much about her for quite some time.

6. Serwa fought quite well. Proved to be awesome in fighting the dragon, but it’s uncertain if she survives or not. I don’t care either way. Kayutas can go rot and I hope he ended up with a terrible a fate as Proyas. He did the same things Proyas did. He knew that it was planned, he was involved and yet, he seems to skate and end up as Exalt-General. Fuck that.

7. I was ready to accept that Proyas would most likely die. I somehow knew it, but I honestly expected it to happen at the very end and NOT LIKE THAT. He was broken emotionally and raped by Kellhus, set up to make some depraved decisions, and then he is scapegoated as a “betrayer”. He is eventually strangled to death by Moenghus because the alternative was to be burnt alive in the Umbilicous. Such BULLSHIT. Unnecessary, unbelievable bullshit! He was WAY too good a character to simply throw away like that. I know all about “bla bla realism, life’s not fair, grimdark, shit happens, subversions, inversions, aversions horeshit”, but the problem is that such things aren’t always a good idea. Different doesn’t mean better. Gritty realism doesn’t always make for GOOD TV, let alone literature.

And honestly, that doesn’t make what happened with Proyas and Zsoronga okay. It doesn’t. I’m a little more forgiving with Zsoronga as he was far more of a minor character, but I felt a little for him too. :( He too is wasted.

So, what do I think should have happened with Proyas? Well, let me make it clear that any kind of ideal ending would be out of the question. I know that this is not Sailor Moon, Dragon Quest, Naruto or Disney. Quite frankly, even idealistic shows have their moments of misfortune and people getting shafted. It’s everywhere.

However, I would have preferred and actually DID expect Achamian to save him and they FINALLY manage to reconcile and work together with Mimara and Esmenet to do, well, the best they can given the circumstances. Some of the best interactions have been between Achamian and Proyas and it’s a shame to see it so averted.

If he HAD to die, then I think a more fitting end would have been him dying while killing Kellhus. Or, dying the same way Xinemus did because given that Proyas ATE someone with radiation sickness, there’s no doubt he would have been afflicted. Either way, I would have preferred that he died at the very end in Achamian’s arms if he had to die at all and that the death would be a much better death. I have a lot of scenarios, but I think I have the gist of it.

Now, let me give you a confession, I frequently pictured Kellhus betraying Proyas, but it happened a whole lot sooner. It leads to Proyas being utterly devastated and he ends up with Achamian. Like I said, one of the reasons why I tried to peak ahead was to find out of Akka manages to save Proyas on time. I also honestly believed that Proyas was being set up for Achamian. But, I guess he was set up only to be tossed aside and left broken, ruined, and powerless. :(

I know what Bakker is getting at here. That sometimes it just doesn’t matter. Sometimes, you’re damned no matter what you do (especially on this world), and that sometimes morals/being good are meaningless and don’t always do you any good. But, that doesn’t mean I have to like what happened to Proyas and I FUCKING DON’T.

Worse yet, Bakker admits that “will always be thankful” that Proyas died the way he did. Really? Really? Well, I’m not and I’m not alone on that, so I am tapping out. I am culled. I am done. I’m glad to see that @missbeckywrites managed to finish it, but I don’t see the point anymore, especially after deciding to comb through the spoilers. He will never see or have the dragon that Achamian claimed was “within” him and I well…tbh, don’t care about anyone else anymore.

I guess Proyas is worth the world. Burn everything for him. I know it’s petty, wrong headed, but hey, Esmenet can be like that too and she is saved, so fuck it. I’m out.

---

(What remains is addition commentary reactions from all over TSA. Because a lot of it is me still being  a bit miffed at TUC, I'll just keep them here).

https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/166958889013/the-second-apocalypse-more

Be prepared for some random anything. Like I said, I tapped out of the Unholy Consult, but not of the series in general.

1. I wonder what happens to someone inserted into the No God. I’m assuming that they become vegetative as they are basically a human battery for the sarcophagus. Maybe it’s like the Matrix? I doubt it. I think Kelmomas as we know him(the one who was so fun at first, but got boring) is dead. Good riddance, kiddo. The No God is so much more interesting anyway.

2. I wonder what the living twin’s name will be? Whatever he is, he will clearly be the result of TWO “few” people(one a magic user and the other the keeper of the Judging Eye), the crackie of Cleric and Cujara'Cinmoi, Esmenet and whoever Mimara’s actual father is(I don’t actually believe it’s Achamian). It’s easy to assume that it’ll be a new character. But, there’s a chance that it might not be.

Some say that it might be Kellhus and that was shot down by Bakker himself. Then again, who knows with him? But, a “baby Kellhus” would be a bit infuriating. He’s “dead, but not done”, but I doubt that it means that he will be around in body in The No God. Unless, there’s another Kellhus somewhere. He might be an “Ascendant” like in Malazan, but this isn’t Malazan. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he was and ended up among the 100 or a Demon/Angelic Lord of some sort. But, the Kellhus we know and have grown to hate iZ DED. No baby Kellhus.

Anyway, I have imagined the twins being named “Proyas and Inrau.” Awww…you know, after Achamian’s two students, but thanks to the NO GOD and the Judging Eye, one babby was born dead. I do suspect that the living baby may be a rebirth of SOMEONE as I do think that reincarnation/rebirth do exist. Who? Honestly, it could be anyone.

Koringhus as zero makes one, right? But, that might not have anything to do with the chance to be reincarnated. Inrau? Awww…wouldn’t that be precious? He’s such a sweetheart and Achamian did think of him a few times throughout the Aspect Emperor. Seswatha? No. I think Achamian might be Seswatha reincarnated and Anjencis too.

Like: Seswatha–Anjencis–god only knows who else–Achamian.

Kosotor? LOLOL! No. You know that guy’s an awesome ciphrang. Same with Cnaiur, if he’s really dead and I think he finally is. Nil'Giccas reborn as a human? I wonder what’d he’d be like? Not likely, but interesting. Sorweel? No, if he’s in Heaven, then it’s highly unlikely that he’s going anywhere. Serwe? Why not a woman? She’s a Jesus figure anyway. Maybe?

So, what if…the baby is PROYAS reborn? Because I am almost positive that Proyas dies(sad trombone) before that baby was born. Maybe someone plucked him out of damnation just in time and shoved him into the baby. Oh man…please let this be true. It would be the only arguement that could convince me to resume the Unholy Consult. That, and if Damnation proved to be a giant Gwar concert. ;)

I think it’d be great and hilarious(in a good way) because he goes from being a Conriyan King born of Royalty as a Nersei to someone who is now the SON of Achamian rather than an old surrogate son/former student. He would also be the son of the one who bears the Judging Eye(you know JUDGE PROYAS would love to have that), the grandson of the woman who bore Mimara along with the one who would become the No God, and stepgrandson of none other than Anasurimbor Kellhus.

And then, he gets to bear witness to EVERY THING again AS A BABY. So, whatever happens during the course of the new trilogy, he’s basically a Malowebi, except that he will be growing and would possibly have sorcery. But, he will spend much of his time generally being powerless, I’m sure. :( Like, if things do happen to his family thanks to the failure of the Ordeal, he wouldn’t be able to stop it.

Proyas the sorcerer. I’ve talked about this before, but I always thought it would be ironic if he WAS among the few? Now? He can’t use “BLEAAGH BLASPHEMY” to get out of it. Not with Achamian as his actual father. Not with how every thing has changed. Not with the No God and the scranc horde swirling around. Only thing is, I can’t see Proyas really being compatible with the Gnosis. The Gnosis is supposed to be for less emotional people. People like Achamian at the most emotional. So, what magic would fit him? Anagogic? Nah. Daimos? LOL NO. Quya? That’s for Nonmen. But, Cisharum. You know, the snek people. YES! Magic that is based on PASSION, something Proyas always had a ton of. Dragons are related to snakes. :) I think it would be PERFECT for him.

Course, it’s wishful thinking and just my opinion. Like, all of it is. It’s hard to predict Bakker, but that’s what makes him fun. TBH, I doubt it will be anyone other than a new character with either a new name or named after someone. Saubon, Kosotor and Proyas will most likely become different sorts of Ciphrang. In fact, while I was listening to Dark Angel by VNV Nation, I thought of Proyas. Then again, Dark Angel fits of slew of people, but Proyas is the latest.

It’s been a little over a month and I am STILL pissed at what happened to Proyas. >:( Well, I have Malazan as brain bleach. I’m going to need a lot of it.

3. I have failed to mention poor Sorweel. It’s made clear that Zsoronga and Serwa were his “last straws”. I do think Zsoronga’s death was bullshit as he had no way of knowing what his father had done, but at least his served a clear purpose: it got Sorweel off his ass to become the White Luck Warrior. Too bad he was killed by Kelmomas! BOO!! HISS! But, that chorae? Was that the one that killed Kellhus or cost Serwa her arm? At least Sorweel was saved by Yatwer, but he still got shafted BIG TIME.

I’d also like to point out that if SORWEEL was able to figure out that Proyas got scapegoated, then I’m pretty sure that people like Achamian, Esmenet and Mimara can figure it out too. No way they’ll believe that Proyas was ever a Consult anything. Given what happened, he might as well have joined the Consult. >:(

4. I still miss Conphas. I think things would have been a lot more interesting if he was still alive and working with Fanayal. Imagine Conphas with Nannaferi! AND Malowabi. What a hoot that would be. At least it would be an excuse to keep Saubon with the Empire. Hell, that would have been interesting. Conphas’s death in TTT was just plain cheap and out of nowhere. You don’t see enough animosity between Conphas and Saubon to really see the beheading as satisfying. Oh well. After thinking about it, I find that Saubon was wasted too. At least he died like a bad ass and he died instantly. Very cinematic. Lucky him. You know he’s totally a Ciphrang of Gilgaol.

5. I listened to a review of the Unholy Consult: http://www.sfbrp.com/archives/1337 and I agree with a lot of that, especially when he’s talking about how certain characters are killed off and replaced by people we know nothing of and quite frankly don’t care about. He describes a “named character” doing something heroic and he says that it could have just as easily been done by someone readers were generally already attached to. Honestly, I think this reviewer liked Sorweel AND Proyas and when they both died, he stopped caring, like I did. He skipped over the battle scenes and I stopped entirely.

6. Cnauir started getting old when he’s reduced to someone who is nothing but an insane person who does insane things because he is insane. Yes, he’s the most VIOLENT OF MEN. We get it, but at least he had redeeming qualities in the PON. Here? Nah. Go away. I do find it sad that he goes from “No harm must come to Proyas” changes to “BURN HIM! RAWR!” Then again, a lot can happen in 20 years, including the Scylvendi suffering greatly at the hands of the New Empire. I wonder what happened to the Scylvendi scion. Tinnurit? Was he a son a Cnaiur? Would explain quite a bit if he was.

7. I’m not all that bothered that the next book will center around Crabicus as he basically ran away from the Scylvendi camp. He probably witnessed quite a bit and will be exploring the known world as a Dunyain who is not fully trained. Only problem is that now, the world is in an ever bigger mess than it is.

8. I wonder if Damnation includes a “first level of hell”. Basically, Limbo. It’s for unbeliever types and others who aren’t wicked/hateable enough to “burn”, but are not sufficient enough for heaven. It’s a beautiful area with meadows, a nice castle, and peace. No torment, only sorrow, but there is still peace. A lot of damned people would belong here.

9. Achamian really should have just punched Kellhus in the dick. I will always wonder why Kellhus couldn’t hand Proyas over to Achamian! Proyas was already punished, morale was already raised. NO ONE would have to know and really, it’s unlikely that anyone would do anything anyway with the Consult on one end and the Aspect Emperor on the other. Don’t forget Scylvendi coming along too. If Kellhus REALLY wanted Proyas to bear witness, then he would have done whatever it took to keep him alive. Leaving Proyas hanging is NOT one of those things. Poor Akka. He lost his first student and his first surrogate son. *weeps*. He knelt for Proyas. Maybe that’s why Kellhus refused to hand him over. Maybe it’s Ajokli, but I think using him as excuse only goes so far. Could be that Kellhus feared retaliation? From PROYAS? Well, I do agree that if you push the right buttons, Proyas can give Cnaiur a run for his money as the “most violent of men”. Gee, maybe you should have thought of that before scapegoating him in front of every one and dumping him.

Maybe you should have been more careful when you PLANNED IT ALL!!!!11 That goes for your son too. That is what is most infuriating.

10. I actually wasn’t THAT bothered with the “gay cannibalism”. I still didn’t like the punishment for mutiny and thought that was bullshit, but overall, I thought it was beautifully done. If it had been written by anyone else, I think I would have been repulsed, but I wasn’t here. I do, however, agree that there was too much of it. Sometimes it is better to leave some things to the imagination. Poor Proyas was trying to be like Triamis though and I don’t blame him for that. Triamis never encountered the consequences of eating Sranc. Not as far I know.

Yikes. I think this will do for now. Of course I have more, but I think is more than enough.


https://divinesong.tumblr.com/post/167544676898/second-apocalypse-the-no-god

So, over on the Second Apacalypse, a topic came up that asked about expectations in “The No God”. Here is my answer. Among some other random ramblings.

1. Honestly, I’ve learned not to expect anything, like ever. Only hope. Or predictions. Or attempt to predict. R Scott Bakker is one of THOSE authors–hard to predict. But, I tend to prefer that despite some RAGE ISSUES cough *Proyas* cough.

2. I think Miramis, the wife of Proyas, is going to be more prominent. I don’t know what she’s like, but if she’s anything like Uncle Saubon, then I think that she will be a problem. However, she will be a problem that NO ONE will see coming. Esmenet considers her an ally, but who knows now? There is no way in hell Miramis will believe that Proyas was a Consult traitor and whatever happens, I think she will put up a big fight that will prove crippling for those fighting the No-God. She might even end up on the side of the Consult. Proyas wouldn’t have wanted it that way, but he’s dead, so it might not matter to her. She would also be unlike powerless Naree in that Esmenet will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to kill her if any treachery is involved. Even if Miramis is defeated, it will be a phyricc victory. Maybe a Mimara vs. Miramis swordfight? OHHH!! I’d like to see that.

Like I said though, I don’t know what she’s like. Maybe she only acted like she loved Proyas for whatever reason and is relieved that he’s gone. Maybe she’ll be broken and resigned with no choice but to go with whatever others want. She could just as easily be an ally to Esmenet/Akka/Mimara as an enemy.

As for the children, Thalia could be a parallel to Ieva, wife of Nay-Cayuti. Thalia ends up forced to marry Kayutas, who would now be the Aspect Emperor unless Esmenet tells him to get bent. Either way, they marry and don’t like each other very much. I think the difference is that Thalia will fail in the objective to bringing another No-God to the Consult. Nay-Cayuti wasn’t Dunyain, Kayutas is, so he will be able to detect any animosity pretty easily.

Xinemus? I have no idea. At best, he’s among the heroes doing heroic things and lives happily ever after as Crown Prince or King. At worst, he pays the price for Proyas even though he might not have many memories of his father. Same goes for Thalia. Maybe Akka can help here.

There’s just too many unknowns with Proyas’s family. It’s possible that nothing will happen to them, but will also never be all that prominent in the story. Yea, right.

3. Someone mentioned that Mimara’s baby could be a TWIN soul, similar to Kelmomas. If this is the case, then I’m hoping it’s Proyas and Inrau. That would be so cuuute. They were both students of Achamian and yet so very different people. And not Anasurimbors, unless they end up with Mimara’s surname instead of Achamian’s.

4. It’s been made clear that Crabicus will be the focal point in the next book. What I expect here is for him to be an observer of some sort. I do expect him to reunite with Mimara and Akka(I’m sure Esmenet will be glad to hear that), but I also expect him to witness what’s left of the Scalvendi and the Ordeal. Since he isn’t fully trained, I expect him to be much different from the other Dunyain. He may be a balance between the Logos and Emotion. Bet he’s one of the Few.

5. I think the Consult will now be more active in getting others to join. The Inchoroi probably were not effective in getting anything other than Scranc and Bashrag. Dunyain Consult will do a much better job. Why would they do this? To turn humanity against each other and/or secure the amount of people they need to seal the world. As for how it works, I’ve found that apparently, those who die with the No God around do not go to Damnation and it starves the Ciphrang/Damnation while sealing the world from Hell. Took me awhile to figure out. LOL! That’s why the message board is so nice to visit. Some people can catch things/think of things that others, like me, don’t.

I do, however, think it’s possible that maybe the new Consult will realize that you don’t need to kill anyone to be released from Damnation. You just need the No-God’s presence and that the deaths in the past were caused by the Inchoroi thinking you need to kill others. They are, after all a murder/rape “race of lovers”. The Dunyain have no such need/desire, so it’s obvious that their methods will be a bit different so they will think in ways that “shock troops” never would. Think humanity(in general) will care about that? Nah. They see NO-GOD(or eventually will) and right now, NO-GOD is killing a bunch of people and preventing new births. 

6. I am not, however, optimistic that things will end well for humanity in general on that world. I think a lot of people, especially those of the lower castes, will take advantage of this and either join the Consult thinking they’ll have better lives there or revolt to an unprecedented level while not giving a shit about the No-God. It’s been said that Westeros that the Consult will win not because they’re so “awesome”, but because the “good guys” keep screwing up somehow or just plain bad luck. Whatever the case, I think the No-God will cause a lot of social upheaval which could easily mean that they end up like the North even if the Consult is defeated entirely. I just think the Dunyain Consult will prey on the most desperate/vulnerable and they’ll know where to strike no matter the caste. Doesn’t Ajokli do this too? I don’t think Yatwer is like this as I don’t think she preys on the vulnerable. She is simply sympathetic to them. Well, supposedly.

The Consult simply want people who are easy to manipulate into what they want. We all know what the Dunyain have planned for the world. ABSOLUTE. LOGOS. And unlike Korhingus, they haven’t figured out that the Logos is basically bullshit.

7. I can see a lot of people being unable or unwilling to resist the temptation of the “Tekne” or “Logos”. Well, the latter, yea since the Logos is basically Shijima(Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne), but the first one? Sure, it’s an unknown, but I just think at least some people will think that it can’t be much worse than the shit lives they already have.

8. You know when Eskeles was talking about shards vs slivers, but they’re supposedly part of one “jar.” If a jar shatters, isn’t it true that breaking in shards is easier to repair than breaking in slivers? Isn’t it true that slivers are harder to find? What happens if the slivers go missing? A shard would be easier to find. Either way though, a good artist can make breaks/flaws into something decorative. LOL! I don’t think his lesson was based on repairing a jar though. I’m just trying to say that the “slivers” will be more successful in escaping their fates since the “mighty/blessed” are too busy looking elsewhere. If enough slivers do that, then the “jar” will be broken beyond repair and no one will notice until too late. Hell, this might be how the world ends. 

9. No doubt that we will learn more about Eanna and areas to the south of that desert and west of the Great Ocean. I wonder if the Non Men are in those areas too. Could there be other Consult members there too? I think it’s possible. Zeum will obviously be more prominent. Has to be. Am still interested in the sorcery of that country and Likaro will be a riot, I’m sure. Malowabi will still be around, but he’s stuck with french fry seasoning. Speaking of salt, there’s a good possibility that Kellhus is in one of the severed heads and Kosotor’s soul is still in his own severed head. Or, he’s like Gin'Yursis.

10. Speaking of Kosotor, I wonder if he was the one who accosted Esmenet at TTT. Or was that just a random asshole? But, yea, Kosotor will be an unpleasant Ciphrang, but I guess it’s better than being in Hell as a tormented soul. Also, if Gin'Yursis was a wraith/Ciphrang, then what about other Non-Men? Cujara'Cinmoi? Nin'JanJin? Witch king? Nil'Giccas(I still miss Cleric)? Titigra? Well, he’s not a Non-Men, but he was VERY powerful. So why not?

11. Oh now this is interesting: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2266.0

Deaths of minor characters. A lot of them died in EASTERN Earwa during the Unification Wars or after. And how DID Cnaiur’s first wife die? She was the one he at least half-way loved. I doubt Cnaiur killed her. Maybe the skin-spies? The rest of the deaths, according to the OP, might have died because they knew about the Daimos and Kellhus using it. Yea, I agree that such a thing is a great find and lots of food for thought.

12. I keep forgetting about Serwa. I think she’s still alive. I think she’ll be a balanced Dunyain too. Sure, she lost an arm and injured, but it wouldn’t surprise me if she survived.

13. Daimos is NOOMANCY? Like NO MANCY! NOPE MAGIC. Gee, I wonder why. This isn’t like Shin Megami Tensei where devil summoning is a-okay!

14. Part of the reason why I think Miramis will be a problem is because I think she is one of those people who are a bit myopic(can’t prove this though). That in her mind, the world is not worth anything without Proyas in it(THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT ME PROJECTING IN ANY WAY! NOOO). Some people do think that way. I personally understand it, but I DO NOT condone it. I think Esmenet will try to condemn it, but will be fiercely rebuked for reasons that should be obvious. Honestly, I think Esmenet would understand it as I’m pretty sure she has some empathy(Same with Achamian), but I can’t see her just allowing the world to be destroyed. It’s likely Achmian or Mimara wouldn’t either. Despite thinking “let nations burn” due to Kelmomas going missing, she still did everything she could to help against Fanayal. But, it could be argued that it’s only because she found Kelmomas.

Again, Miramis is basically someone I know very little about and the children even less so.

15. One last thing, I actually expect some POVs somewhere in hell. I bet Saubon is having a blast.
4
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« Last post by Dora Vee on December 10, 2017, 12:33:31 am »
Oh, ok. :)
5
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« Last post by MSJ on December 10, 2017, 12:09:12 am »
Quote from:  Dora Vee
Griffith not good enough for you? :p

Nat at all. I know your love for Proyas and was trying to be nice is all.
6
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« Last post by TLEILAXU on December 10, 2017, 12:07:48 am »
Griffith not good enough for you? :p
You don't have a choice.
7
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« Last post by Dora Vee on December 10, 2017, 12:03:52 am »
Griffith not good enough for you? :p
8
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« Last post by MSJ on December 09, 2017, 10:42:31 pm »
Quote from:  Dora Vee
:)

Now click on that, save it, and use as your avatar here. I personally requested Q too post that for you!

Cheers,
MSJ
9
General Misc. / Re: Starcraft
« Last post by Redeagl on December 09, 2017, 10:27:41 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSJM9qF0txw
Yeah, I was going to post that but I am too lazy. This made me add SC: R to my must buy list.
10
General Misc. / Re: Starcraft
« Last post by TLEILAXU on December 09, 2017, 10:25:42 pm »
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