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Welcome, Doulou - great stuff. I think you're sporting some nice insight on what truly happened to Kellhus. Unfortunately, I'll have to rely on others to chime in specifically for as I was so duped by exactly what you said, I only found my way out reading the contemplation on the story in this forum ( i.e. simply too much went over my head ). So all I have for you is accolades and enjoyed your post very much. Much of what you spelled out has been discussed in other threads, but so nice to see more "thinking" on this story, it's been a lot of fun for me to listen and occasionally embarrass myself with erroneous contributions.

BFK - nice, I like that, the Dunyain perhaps unwittingly made themselves vulnerable to the gods with their pursuit of the logos. Some interesting takes on the meaning of that.
Very thoughtful post, Doulou; welcome!

Excellent observation on the lack of a Kellhus POV; in retrospect, that opaque "head on a pole" scene may be an interior view of Kellhus' "madness". I, too, found it impossible to think of Kellhus as truly "mad". How could a madman lead the Great Ordeal? How could a madman do sorcery?

Here's a thought: If the DŻnyain pursuit of the Logos requires the diminution of "self", as we see in TDTCB, then wouldn't an empty "place" be a likely home for a God?
Hi guys,

I recently finished the Unholy Consult and have been making a few posts on Reddit with my thoughts on the matter, so I'd just like to type them out here and see what everyone thinks!

In my mind, Kellhus has went through a "false" transformation in the series, one we as readers fabricated in our minds and ultimately ended up duped.

When we read the first trilogy we saw a fallible Kellhus. He came across as "Uber human", but human nonetheless. We saw how he couldn't ever truly posses Cnaiur or Conphas, how he made mistakes along the way and how his thousandfold thought almost ended before it barely even begun when he was hung on the crucifix. It was his POVs that gave us this insight into his character and saw a man who was beyond men, but still a man.

Then the Aspect Emperor was written, and we lost our insight into Kellhus. This is when (in my mind) a transformation took place. 20 years has passed! The man is almost godlike in his knowledge of the Gnosis, he has walked into hell itself, and who can say how far he has seen with 20 years to contemplate his thousandfold thought? This is when I started to assume Kellhus had all but transcended humanity and become almost godlike, and his lack of POV only bolsters this feeling. When reading the Aspect Emperor I found myself thinking constantly how everything that was happening was part of Kellhus's masterplan, that things happening on the other side of the world were all but ripples of his thousandfold thought that he had prepared for.

Then with the Unholy Consult we see Kellhus in his endgame. He faces off the Dunyain with confidence, Ajokli takes him over and this whole time we are still thinking "Kellhus knew it, he knew Ajokli was coming, it was Kelmomas that ruined everything".

To me, thinking this is where some of us (or maybe a lot of us) got it wrong. I know I did. But before I go let me just reference a few Bakker quotes -

Q: So what was Kellhuses big plan and its endgame? How did being possessed by Ajokli factor into it?

A: Kellhus's endgame was to prevent Resumption and save the World. He knew something was amiss, and that the closer he came to Golgotterath the more amiss it became, but he, ultimately, was every bit as blind as we are to the darkness that comes before.

Q: Did Kellhus fail because of his professed abandonment of Logos as the ultimate path, and his pact with Gods? In any case he wasn't truly walking the Conditioned Ground any longer? If indeed walking it is possible at all.

A: Kellhus became less Kellhus and more Ajokli the nearer he came to Golgotterath. He failed to execute on the Thousandfold Thought because he took the stability of his personal identity for granted.

Q: Was Kellhus aware that he would be literally possessed by Ajokli? Was he in his full faculties during/after their merging, or did he rather turn an unwitting pawn for the god?

A: He drifted into it, before finally being seized in the Golden Room.

Q: Who was the figure Kellhus was speaking to in his dreams/visions, on the Circumfix and onwards?

A: Ajokli seems a safe supposition.

Now bearing in mind these answers from Bakker, a different Kellhus is presented. I believe a lot of us forget that he is "far seeing, not all seeing" (another Bakker quote). Bakkers AMAs usually follow a certain theme when people ask how/why Kellhus didn't see things coming, and it's usually either he can't see what he doesn't know what to look for or he just had a bloody lot on his plate.

I think that at first glance it seems 100% nailed on that Kellhus walks into the Golden Room with Ajokli as an ace to outsmart the Dunyain, but IMO that is coming from the "Kellhus sees all angle". What I think Bakker intended (using his AMA answers to further support this) is that ever since the Crucifix his madness had been claiming him. Ajoklis whispering in his mind was slowly unravelling his sense of self, and as Kellhus says to Proyas he "no longer knows why he does things". The closer he got to Golgotterath the more he became Ajokli and the more the darkness claimed him. By the time he was speaking in the Golden Room I don't think he truly knew how he was going to win, although he speaks with confidence and retains a sense of self, he is now heavily under the influence of Ajokli.

Kellhus was powerful, and smart, but when we delve into this "Yeah, but Kellhus wanted Ajokli to take him over so he kill the Dunyain, then take back control of himself, then descend into hell and rule" we are just giving Kellhus way more credit than Bakker ever intended. In Bakkers story, Kellhus was a really smart human but the Gods overpowered him. An interestin piece to look back on is when the WLW was after Kellhus, I was so giddy at the thought of Kellhus walking a path so fine that even the WLW couldn't beat him, alas it wasnt true. It was blind luck (or fate) that Kelmomas would save him twice. Adding to that, Kellhus both times didn't even seem to realize that the gods had all but beaten him if not for Kelmomas No-God ability to be unseen. He couldn't even put 2 and 2 together and rationalize that Kelmomas was standing outside of the Gods vision. Then we can look back at other moments when we see the atomic bomb go off... Kellhus can not see what he doesn't know to look for. Kellhus is and has always been fallible. Bakker doesn't just turn the narrative of the protagonist outsmarting the antagonist on it's head, he rips out its guts and lays them on the floor. Kellhus was spiritually a mess by the end of the series and for the longest time probably wasn't even wholly Kellhus due to Ajokli causing his madness.

The problem is that it is very hard to accept Kellhus as weaker than we thought because we built up such an all powerful image of him. Part of me wishes we had a Kellhus POV a bit more so we could see the internal struggle with Ajokli, feel the madness overcoming him and ultimately see just how much he wasn't able to predict. It would have added some much needed clarity to a story that I wish I didn't have to read AMA's to fully grasp. Maybe Bakker intended us to view him as almost unstoppable, and then at the end tear it all down and have us face the harsh reality that he was not all seeing, and in fact was operating in darkness towards the end was unable to execute the Thousandfold thought because he simply didn't know what was happening to him or how to stop it.

What will be interesting is Kellhus role in the next set of books. Bakker has said he is dead. He has said Dunyain are spiritually weak. So what kind Kellhus offer us as a spirit? I can't wait to see more of what Bakker writes, his books are truly something unique. For all his flaws I am a Kellhus fan, and I hope in death we can see him "Restored", without Ajokli possessing him, maybe he can operate on truly conditioned ground once more.

Well, that's my thoughts guys. Hope you enjoyed reading it. It's took me a while to reconcile my feelings on the Second Apocalypse but Im quite happy with this interpretation of events. Would be interested to hear what others think :)
General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by TaoHorror on February 17, 2018, 03:00:00 pm »
Quote from:  Tao
I think I know who the killer is that they showcase in the beginning of each episode.

Me too.....I think. Tell me if you have same idea, if not who you think.

(click to show/hide)

+1  ;D
General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by MSJ on February 17, 2018, 04:47:10 am »
Quote from:  Tao
I think I know who the killer is that they showcase in the beginning of each episode.

Me too.....I think. Tell me if you have same idea, if not who you think.

(click to show/hide)
General Misc. / Re: The Olympics 2018
« Last post by Dora Vee on February 17, 2018, 03:00:22 am »
Yes. The atheletes found innocent were able to compete as OAR.

And now, figure skating. Chan! YAY! Went from a painful short program to a godlike long one! One of the best scores ever! Hooray! Loved Misha Ge too.
General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by TaoHorror on February 17, 2018, 02:55:28 am »
I watch a ton of tv and I'm out of shape. I loved Mind Hunters, glad it was restrained, it builds nice tension. I think I know who the killer is that they showcase in the beginning of each episode.

Fortitude is trippy, check it out.
General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by MSJ on February 17, 2018, 12:50:52 am »
Quote from: Tleilaxu
It's definitely worth a watch though. The actor playing the big mustache killer did a fantastic job.

Brrrrrr. Tell me that last scene of the final episode didn't give you the chills! Flipped me out.
General Misc. / Re: The Olympics 2018
« Last post by MSJ on February 16, 2018, 11:59:24 pm »
Yep, and Russia. But, they were banned from these Olympics, correct?
General Misc. / Re: The Olympics 2018
« Last post by Dora Vee on February 16, 2018, 11:48:52 pm »
It's usually Norway and Germany that dominate the Winter Olympics. Then, there's the Dutch who dominate Speed Skating.
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