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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by H on December 14, 2017, 08:55:46 pm »
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.

Sure but lets not forget that Moe Sr. failed.  If Kellhus does not gain the Gnosis, then his power is greatly diminished and he probably fails too.  It was really only through the overwhelming power he gains from the Meta-Gnosis can he actually conquer the whole Three Seas, which is what makes the Ordeal possible.
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Author Q&A / Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
« Last post by Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 08:23:01 pm »
ANSWER ME BAKKER
Sir, please step calmly away from the whirlwind ...
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 08:21:34 pm »
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 08:16:13 pm »
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Now, this is very plausible explanation, but also a highly undramatic one. My own wee little guess is that the series, at the time Celmomian Prophecy was written, wasn't planned that far ahead, so Bakker wasn't resolved on the idea that Nau-Cayuti wasn't dead and instead became the No-God, so he wrote him as if he had died and gone with the Gods; but there might be more to it. I don't think it's just Gods tricking Celmomas or him dreaming. It really was Nau-Cayuti, or another Anasurimbor who resembled him enough that Celmomas thought it was him...

One who gets to ride with the Gods, outside Earwa's spectrum of time...

Hmm...

Yeah, I think it's Kellhus, who is going to become a literal God eventually in the series, and cause the Prophecy. But it's doubtful whether Celmomian Prophecy was actually neccessary for Kellhus's rise to power - if it didn't exist, Achamian would've still been surprised at seeing an Anasurimbor, and would still have been possessed by Kellhus regardless of any prophecy convincing him of Kellhus's prophetiness. Still, since it happened, it has to happen.
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Author Q&A / Re: Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*
« Last post by EkyannusIII on December 14, 2017, 07:51:14 pm »
ANSWER ME BAKKER
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by Wilshire on December 14, 2017, 05:28:13 pm »
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.
Misdirection - he's the (T)rickster. Classic non-answer though :P
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by TLEILAXU on December 14, 2017, 05:13:24 pm »
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by H on December 14, 2017, 04:50:22 pm »
I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Well, Quint actually pointed out on Facebook that we really don't have any explanation of what Gilgaöl looks like.  At best we get told that the Nansur saw a 4 horned shadow of Cnaiür and this meant he was possessed by Gilgaöl, i.e. War.  However, consider that it is just as likely that Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, i.e. Hate.

We do get a cryptic mention in TWP, chapter 5, to "Gilgaöl, One-Eyed War" and the vision that Celmomas sees actually has two eyes.  Not much to draw though, since we have nothing to corroborate either side.  However, do consider though, Celmomas admits to surprise that Gilgaöl would still favor him: "Gilgaöl, War, come to claim him … Come to save, despite everything."  Consider though, in asking Seswatha to forgive him he belies the strained relationship between then, and so that who actually appears to Celmomas could be Ajokli, "rewarding" Celmomas for his hatred of Seswatha...
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by SmilerLoki on December 14, 2017, 03:52:40 pm »
Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."
The way I see it, this dream takes the cake in being completely unclear. So far we can't say for certain if it gives us new information, contradicts the information available previously, both, or neither.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by MSJ on December 14, 2017, 03:27:00 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
In TUC we see that its literally Kellhus that is being shown to Celmomas. Not sure what further room for interpretation there is.

Sorry to be picky, but that was TGO.

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The prophesy foretells of the end of the world (ie Anasurimbor will return), and it also says when (When Seswatha dies). Of those two clauses, the Anasurimbor returning seems largely inconsequential to me.

Which interests the he'll out of me, because Seswatha still lives through Akka, probably Serwa and maybe a handful of other Mandati...

Quote
2) So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas?
IMO, I think its Ajokli.
Probably interesting to note that much of the confusion might be coming from the fact that until that scene where we saw the god in TUC, Bakker hadn't decided who it was. I say that not to use Bakker as supporting evidence either way, but to point out that there are references in the text for it being either Gilgaol or Ajokli throughout. Sound arguments can be made for either case.
It being Ajokli fits better into my overall view of the narrative, so unless I overturn most everything in my head regarding the story, I'll be sticking with that :)

I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Quote
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Agree 100%. Celmomas completely misinterpreted, because of his love for Nayu and hoping Nayu loved him back. A lot lost in translation between Seswatha and Celmommas.
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