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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by SmilerLoki on September 18, 2018, 12:44:27 am »
"you seek to starve the Gods"
I always took that to mean after the world is shut. I.e. the world is shut, no souls go to the Outside, the Gods are starving.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by TLEILAXU on September 17, 2018, 07:47:32 pm »
I think it's reasonable to take the statement about passing no further at face value, especially regarding later quotes such as "you seek to starve the Gods" etc.
However, as Smiler also mentioned, the dreams add uncertainty about all this, especially given the possible ambiguity regarding whether it's actually Gilgaöl we see or Ajokli. I actually asked Bakker about this in the AMA and this was his answer
Quote
The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.
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Literature / Re: YOU MUST TELL ME ... What else are you reading?
« Last post by Wilshire on September 17, 2018, 04:19:14 pm »
My favorite for badass is Kalam Mekhar. The sequences of him ... doing a variety of totally badass infiltrations and dazzling escapes ... are some of the best in the series for raw 'coolness' factor.
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Literature / Re: YOU MUST TELL ME ... What else are you reading?
« Last post by Dora Vee on September 17, 2018, 03:16:52 pm »
52% complete. House of Chains is a quicker read, but I don't think it has the same emotional impact MOI did. Like, I don't care as much.

Tavore makes me smile though. She is impressive. However, she is a little too remote which would explain why people have doubts, but it's clear to me that she has to have a "queenly mask" and she does show her humanity in private.
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Literature / Re: Yearly Targets 2018
« Last post by Wilshire on September 17, 2018, 02:48:17 pm »
Godblind by Anna Sephens (32)

This was a pretty good book, not amazing. The premise might become something really interesting depending on how things go, and she ended it in a cliff hanger that makes the sequel compelling to pick up. A solid choice if you're looking for some dark fantasy and don't have anything else pressing to read.

Barely made it last week, finished on Saturday. One-a-week will make for a long rest of the year... Might have to do a bunch of the older scifi on my list to finish out the year if I get more behind than I already am.

Ah well, on to The Fifth Season by N K Jemisin. She has received a lot of praise for Broken Earth, and book 3 won both the hugo and nebula, which hasn't happened in 4 years, so I have pretty high hopes.

No particular order but books that I'd like to get through this year still:
The Fith Seasons by N. K. Jemisin
Elric of Melniboné by Michael Moorcock
Assassin’s Apprentice (Farseer Trilogy) by Robin Hobb
Viriconium by M. John Harrison
Senlin Ascends (Books of Babel #1) by Josiah Bancroft
Darkmage by M. L. Spencer
Hidden Empire (Saga of Seven Suns) by Kevin J Anderson
Angelmaker by Nick Harkaway
Dreamsnake by Vonda Mcintyre
Starburst by Fredrik Pohl
A Canticle of Lebowitz by Walter M. Miller Jr.
The Broken God (A requiem for Homo Sapiens) by David Zindell
Furies of Calderon(Codex Alera 1) by Jim Butcher
The Gunslinger (The Dark Tower) by Stephen King
The Witcher by Andrzej Sapkowski
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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by Wilshire on September 17, 2018, 12:11:49 pm »
Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
“[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.”—A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

Definitely an important footnote. We often use that line as gospel to be applied unilaterally, and the fact of still-born births during the NG reign as proof. The importance of that quote and the specificity is that the two are not necessarily connected.

Not necessarily disconnected either ;)
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The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TWP Chapter 6
« Last post by TheCulminatingApe on September 16, 2018, 06:22:48 pm »
First battle of the Holy War.  Bakker has his own unique (and awesome) way of writing battle scenes - reminiscent of Tolkien in some respects.

Quote
A warring we have come
A reaving we shall work
And when the day is done,
In our eyes the Gods shall lurk!


It was a song as old as the Ancient North, a song from The Sagas.  And as the Inrithi gave it voice once again, they felt the glory of their past flood through them, brace them.  A thousand voices and one song.  A thousand years and one song!  Never had they felt so rooted, so certain.  The words struck many with the force of revelation.  Tears streamed down sunburned cheeks.  Passions ignited, swept through the ranks, until men roared inarticulately and brandished their swords against the sky.  They were thousands and they were one.

In our eyes the Gods shall lurk!

Should something be read into this?  Many become one - have one voice - through time.

The Inrithi charge, and seem to break the Fanim.  They are deceived by Fanim tactics and are in danger of being broken themselves until rallied by Saubon.  The Fanim throw themselves at the Inrithi line.

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Then, as though stepping out of the blinding sun, the Cishaurim revealed themselves

Saubon sees his own face on a dead man - and holds his own hand.  Kussalt arrives, tells Saubon he (Saubon) has stemmed the breach in the lines.
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Saubon blinked at the blood trickling into his left eye.  An inexplicable cruelty overcame him.  "You're old and slow... Give me your horse!"
Kussalt's look soured.  Old lips tightened.
"This is no place to be thin-skinned, you old fool.  Now give me your fucking horse!
Kussalt jerked, as though something had popped within him, then slumped forward, staggering Saubon with his weight.

Quote
"I would have you know..." the old man wheezed, "how much I hated you..."

Nobody seems to want Saubon.

He decides that it is time to punish the Shrial Knights, and orders them to charge the Cishaurim.
No-one is expecting that - many Knights die in the charge - including 'Sarcellus', but the Cishaurim are destroyed.  Battle continues for the rest of the day - the Inrithe remain unbroken.

Quote
As the sun lowered in the western skies, the Fanim flinched more and more from the Inrithi line, charged with ever greater trepidation.  For they saw demons in the eyes of their idolatrous enemy.

Actual demons?  We can 'see into the outside' from Mengedda.

Then as Skauras sounds the retreat, Proyas arrives.  The entire Inrithi host charges and the Fanim rout and are massacred.

Saubon seeks out Kellhus, but finds Achamian.  Akka tells him about the Battleplain.

Quote
"Topoi are like heights, places where one can see far... But where heights are built with mounds of trauma and suffering.  They are heights that let us see farther than this world... some say into the Outside.  That's why this ground troubles you - you stand perilously high... This is the Battleplain.  What you feel isn't so different from vertigo.

Quote
"Even amongst topoi", he called, "this place is... special." ...
"The soul that encounters Him, " the Schoolman continues, "passes no further"...
"The dead do not escape the Battleplain, my Prince... This place is cursed.  The No-God died here."

Foreshadowing of Golgotterath, which is the topos.

Shades of Tolkien - Battleplain (a direct translation of Dagorlad at the Gates of Mordor), and the Dead Marshes.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by SmilerLoki on September 15, 2018, 08:07:01 pm »
Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that.
Skafra was even more cute about it, the exact quote is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Warrior-Prophet", Chapter One, Anserca
hath tasted thy King’s passing, and he saith, ‘It is done.’
That doesn't necessarily mean the No-God in any way claimed Celmomas's soul, it might only mean that it was aware of his passing away.

Also, there is this tidbit from TTT's Glossary:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Thousandfold Thought", Encyclopedic Glossary
“[The] soul that encounters Him passes no further.”—A line from The Sagas referring to the Battleplain and the belief that all those who perish there remain trapped.
It outright states that this saying refers specifically to the Mengedda Plains, which is a known topos. Might be it's not that people who died there are trapped because of the No-God, it's that the Outside leaks in there, and with it the souls of those who died in the numerous battles of Mengedda.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
Surely!
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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by themerchant on September 15, 2018, 05:54:11 pm »
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.



Although the dragon said to seswatha that the No-god ate his soul. or tasted it, something like that. Although that's from the dreams as well, so just as unreliable. Plus it seems that might not have been Gilgaol but Ajokli.

I'm not too wedded to any interpetation but for the purpose of testing theories it's good to air them and see who can spot inconsistencies or add other titbits to make it more robust.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by themerchant on September 15, 2018, 05:49:41 pm »
It stops all souls from going to the outside though.
It certainly would be one interpretation of that line. But the issue is, in the infamous Dream Celmomas believed himself to be carried to Gilgaol's Heaven, which is in contention with the proposed interpretation.

[EDIT] I really dislike that Dream since it contradicts many things that would otherwise be all but set in stone.

[EDIT] And also the one where the Heron-Spear misses.

Yeah we have some competing evidence and no idea how much weight to put on each.
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