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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by H on December 14, 2017, 01:07:17 pm »
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.

Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.

I don't disagree with any of that, generally.  My only point was that we don't really know how the Prophecy came to be, if it was somehow NC or somehow Kellhus, or somehow maybe even Ajokli.  It's all bound up in some really unintuitive time shenanigans.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by MSJ on December 14, 2017, 12:55:25 pm »
Quote from:  H
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by SmilerLoki on December 14, 2017, 12:36:46 pm »
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by H on December 14, 2017, 12:01:56 pm »
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by MSJ on December 14, 2017, 09:30:58 am »
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.

The way its been interpreted to me, and its backed up in the books (I will go in further detail later as I don't have much time), is that the 100 can see all of time. Its like they know what will happen and when. They see time as (linear I believe, could be wrong, not my strong suit.), so they knew Kellhus would be involved in the end of the world. And, from their point of view (the Gods) time must stop. Does it mean the end of the world, or the end of the Gods (100)? Your guess is as good as mine.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by Cuttlefish on December 14, 2017, 12:57:19 am »
If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

I made the monumental mistake of buying the book off of Kobo, which allows me to authorize it for only one device that I don't have with me, so I can't actually check the book right now (fucking hell Kobo) but I vaguely remember the Consult Dunyain mentioning to Kellhus that Nau-Cayuti too was converted by the Inverse Fire. The dream sequence from TGO takes place before this, while he was still being taken to Golgoterrath after his death is faked. As I understand, he was taken there and tortured, but this did not break him, so he was taken to the Inverse Fire, which did, and shoved into the Carapace.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.

But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by TLEILAXU on December 13, 2017, 11:51:59 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilga÷l sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
Right, I somehow missed most of your post and said the exact same thing.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by MSJ on December 13, 2017, 11:43:21 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilga÷l sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
39
The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by TLEILAXU on December 13, 2017, 11:38:43 pm »
I've been thinking about the Prophecy lately, and two questions emerged. First of all - who was the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? Is it an Anasurimbor yet to "happen" like the crab handed boy or Kayutas; was it Kellhus, or was it Kelmomas?

Secondly, the Prophecy was told to Celmomas by his son Nau-Cayuti, who was IIRC "riding with the Gods". This is interesting, because the last book revealed that Nau-Cayuti was exposed to the Inverse Fire, converted to Consult and merged with the No-God. So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas? Was it the No-God/Nau-Cayuti, was it the gods themselves or was Nau-Cayuti's soul ultimately saved and redeemed?
I want to think it was Gilga÷l sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Celmomian Prophecy
« Last post by MSJ on December 13, 2017, 11:25:00 pm »
Wow, loaded question Cuttlefish.

The Anasurrimbor that was showed during the dream, through Celmommas was Kellhus. No, Kelmommas is who became the No-God, hence the end of the world. But, since the Gods was not in the Golden Room, I figure them, plus the whole of Earwa believe Kellhus is the No-God.

If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.
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