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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
« Last post by Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:56:49 pm »
Well Akka is alive, and he was probably my personal favorite, so I can't compare my experience to yours directly.
But I do think that the intent would be to start TNG on something of a clean slate.

But you're right, Bakker does not appear to make simple enjoyment a clear goal of the series lol. Its almost like his intent is to make his readers uncomfortable. This, almost by definition, makes for a not-so-great story, no matter how interesting his prose and worldbuilding might be.
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:53:44 pm »
A Dunyain more than any other would take advantage of the sharpest tool with which to make their point, but that doesn't suddenly mean they shed two thousand years of conditioning. Ultimately, every Dunyain we see is the same. They all pursue what they believe to be the shortest path to the Absolute. Moenghus picked TTT, died, Kellhus picked magic, died, Koringhus typical dunyain stuff but encountered TJE, died, Mutilated picked Tekne, some died and some lived.

The Boy is the only one left untested, but it appears that the Mutilated (by happenstance or virtue) appear to be the only ones left on the path, making theirs the shortest lol.
The Unholy Consult / Re: Two Questions
« Last post by Cuttlefish on August 07, 2018, 06:47:03 pm »
Additionally, the fact that the Shortest Path might be false isn't necessarily relevant. It was followed like it was true, and it created a way of thinking that's embodied in the Dunyain. In other words, the definition of Absolute - which isn't given in the series - might be irrelevant (let's say, using your theory, that God-Kellhus is the Absolute), only the path that leads to it is important.

That's precisely what I suspect, though. The teachings of the Shortest Path created individuals that are ideally suited to taking over the world, but it was built on a lot of falsehoods; falsehoods that the first Dunyain themselves knew to be fact. As followed in its pure form, it'd lead to a dead end.

That's, I think, what makes Moenghus one of the more interesting characters of the series. Unlike the Mutiliated, the Survivor and Kellhus, contact with the outside world hasn't really seemed to shift his dedication to the Shortest Path, even with the knowledge that the purely physical understanding of the world the Dunyain espoused was quite obviously wrong. It might be purely my own conjecture, but I thought what motivated him to save the world was to allow for the Dunyain experiment to continue.
The Almanac: PON Edition / Re: ARC: TDTCB Chapter 17
« Last post by Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:43:32 pm »
Reckon realistically Bakker didn't have a fixed idea about Dunyain women when TDTCB was written, then overlooked the sentence in question when writing TGO.  It does jar though, when you consider the Whale Mothers

Though note that the MOUNTAIN is a beautiful woman.  Sounds to me like huge round objects for bent/warped spines are beautiful to Kellhus. Therefore Whale Mothers make sense. Its his sense of beauty after all, not ours.

 Years of conditioning would almost certainly guarantee that the dunyain men would like the physical form of the women. As seen IRL with different cultures preferring different body types.


Is there a relationship between the Dunyain Conditioning and the presence of physical Topoi in Earwa?

Is Kellhus himself a Topoi?

With the exception of Koringhus (who does ultimately completely reject the Dunyain philosophy), all the Dunyain we encounter outside Ishual seem to be major instigators of trauma/ suffering?
Don't exclude Koringhus, after all he spent years and years doing nothing but killing. He alone might have began turning ishual into a topos.

But I think the two are not intended to be connected, Dunyain and Topos.

I do think its interesting to think about how this entire training bit is Kellhus' encounter with the probability trance, and how it took however many days to achieve it the first time, but eventually can be entered and exited at will.

Which rolls into your Cause question. I think the point there is showing that Cause, like anything else, can be refined into a usable tool - but its mere existence doesn't make it so until manipulated. Much like iron ore's relationship to a steel blade.
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« Last post by Cuttlefish on August 07, 2018, 06:40:06 pm »
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

I don't believe so; they seemed genuine, when they believed witnessing his own suffering in the Inverse Fire could make Kellhus defect. Clearly, they thought it is traumatizing enough to influence another Dunyain.
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
« Last post by Cuttlefish on August 07, 2018, 06:38:19 pm »
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...
It is a shame that TUC didn't give us more information. I hope the other books get published at some point. But a full year of radio silence does not seem hopeful lol.

Oh, ye of little faith....

What's a year for us Veterans of The Slog?
Oh its not the years I'm worried about. Its peolple. Specifically, Bakker and Publishers. Though, assuming no more kids, another 15ish years and he'll be empty-nesting and looking for something to fill the time with.
Philosophy & Science / Re: Bakker and Harris
« Last post by Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:20:49 pm »
Of course.  I agree with all these things.

I just think its funny that someone relying on free speech as a premise for their entire career advocates for killing people who think differently than himself. As if its so difficult to imagine someone would think your ideas and beliefs are extreme enough for them to kill you. Seems super short sighted, and so ironic that it literally makes me chuckle. (Same goes for any group, his is hardly a new or unique idea, either today or in recent, middle, or distant history.)

If its not obvious, I don't follow him and only am just looking at a couple of quotes from themerchant. Maybe he's a stand-up guy with great thoughts, but this particular quote seems silly. Self reflection is hard!
Philosophy & Science / Re: Genetic Engineering the future
« Last post by Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 06:07:26 pm »
Born humans would simply end up out, evolutionarily speaking, right?
Yup pretty much this. There won't ever be 'post'humans', just humans who take over the title and then whatever they were born from going the way of the neanderthal... or Emwama incarnate.

Even given that outcome, I'm all for it.
Philosophy & Science / Re: Genetic Engineering the future
« Last post by H on August 07, 2018, 05:47:18 pm »
While a difficult question, I seriously doubt humans will concede that a created "enhanced" human is post-human, or any other term that implies 'not actually human'. Starting from human stock will safeguard whatever the result is, as calling it something else diminishes the achievement. Its an ego thing.

But what if they decide that?  I.E. what if a "created" "post-Human" sues for rights?  Or what happens when created Humans simply out preform born humans?  Born humans would simply end up out, evolutionarily speaking, right?
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