The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => Atrocity Tales => Topic started by: SilentRoamer on June 11, 2014, 07:27:27 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 11, 2014, 07:27:27 pm
Ok so just dropping a potential crackpot (less so in certain elements):

Titirga was blind as a child and was described as a different mark, I cannot remember the exact terminology think it was "muted" or "rinsed". I think of this as something to do with him being the first Cishaurim. Think on this, if he was also a Gnostic Sorceror as well as a Cishaurim, with his hot-headedness evident in the Atrocity Tales, would other Sorcerors even notice?

He has also being described as "grasping that which shouldn't be grasped" which I always thought hinted at Daimotic Sorcery. Interesting choice of the word Grasping as well - drawing parallels to Sesswathas Heart, which I think is a Humuncolous, wouldn't a Humuncolous be an Inward bound Ciphrang?

Just thought old Nostril Flaring, Caller of the Famed Voice, Weilder of the False Sun, Wearer of the Odd Mark, Grasper of the Shouldn'a'be Grasped Titirga the Fallen Hero deserved a bit of bigging up  :)

[EDIT Madness]: Title.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2014, 02:06:34 am
You left out him being blind as a child. I think there must be some connection with his mark, blindness, and Cishaurim. Like you said, there would be no parallel for schoolmen of that age to even come up with the that idea.

I don't think he had any connection to Diamotic sorcery. I don't think the Gnostic schools would have needed that to bolster their power. On top of that, it was a banned branch of sorcery, like the Aporos, and most of the schools seemed to obey the rules their Quya masters set down for them.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 12, 2014, 12:35:32 pm
I did say he was blind Wilshire I think you must have missed it.

I appreciate what you are saying about Gnostic power and Quya laws but lets not forget Titirga was VERY powerful - I will need to re-read but sure there is a passage which mentions this. Maybe Titirga didn't explore the Daimos but maybe he grasped it when he shouldn't have.

Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2014, 12:55:33 pm
I think the alien-ness of his powers came from some connection with the Psuke. Titirga is what makes me think that the Psuke, if it had enough to time develop and was in the right hands, could have been more powerful than the Gnosis. Or maybe the combination of Gnosis and Psuke, using intellect and emotion, could have even surpassed the Meta Gnosis.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 12, 2014, 02:00:26 pm
I think the alien-ness of his powers came from some connection with the Psuke. Titirga is what makes me think that the Psuke, if it had enough to time develop and was in the right hands, could have been more powerful than the Gnosis. Or maybe the combination of Gnosis and Psuke, using intellect and emotion, could have even surpassed the Meta Gnosis.

I have been thinking about Psukhe + Gnosis.

On a similar vein of thought - do you think Kellhus would be constrained with the Psukhe like Moenghus was?

I don't know why but I have a feeling that Kellhus feels real emotions now and is essentially a Dunyain with emotional capability - maybe this is one of the reasons Kellhus deludes himself so often.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on June 12, 2014, 02:30:04 pm
Might be so, he does seem to have passions. Moe claimed that the Dunyain have been trying to breed out emotions, and I tend to believe a lot of what he said at the end of TTT. I'm not one of those that thinks everything he said was a lie, and take the opposite to be true...

Even if Kellhus might be able to use the Psuke, he likely extinguished any hope of learning it himself via the destruction of Shimeh and the Cish Primaries.. That said, if there was any way for him to learn, he would have at least tried. No reason for him not to spend a few days seeing if he could grasp that which no other living schoolman could (except Meppa I guess). Unmarked sorcery could certainly have its uses... Ace in the hole? WLW's blindspot?
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: SilentRoamer on June 12, 2014, 10:53:16 pm
Might be so, he does seem to have passions. Moe claimed that the Dunyain have been trying to breed out emotions, and I tend to believe a lot of what he said at the end of TTT. I'm not one of those that thinks everything he said was a lie, and take the opposite to be true...

Even if Kellhus might be able to use the Psuke, he likely extinguished any hope of learning it himself via the destruction of Shimeh and the Cish Primaries.. That said, if there was any way for him to learn, he would have at least tried. No reason for him not to spend a few days seeing if he could grasp that which no other living schoolman could (except Meppa I guess). Unmarked sorcery could certainly have its uses... Ace in the hole? WLW's blindspot?

I tend to believe a lot of what Moe said but one problem for me is the passage in TDTCB where Kellhus as a boy is trying to hit the Pragma with a stick and the language is very playful. I tend to think of this as a mistake or a subtle foreshadowing because other than those those few passages the evidence for lack of emotional response as part of the Dunyain concept of Logos is undeniable.

Kellhus definetely has some passions, you seem them in him as a boy, you definetely see them with Serwe and then with Esmenet - both from his PoV which I trust as the only reliable narrative on Kellhus.

If he wasn't unaffected by Chorae after his Circumfixion I would swear he went Cish without the Blindness and had a Revelation similar to Fane. I think you are right though, no Psukhe for Kellhus.

Yeah Meppa kills the WLW because the gods cant see what he will do +1 Team Kellhus - Sorting his House
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on June 29, 2014, 04:40:02 pm
I am convinced that there is going to be a WLW blind spot. It is so eAsyfor the reader to assume the omnipotence of gods, even when a we know it is false, and the send that it is revealed will be awesome. Same thing, though, goes for Kellhus. Eventually, something unexpected wi happen, though I think him more capable of dealing with it than the gods, because be is aware of his own fallibility.


As per emotions an the dubyain training,  remember tht the boys are not full dunyain yet. (Or so I remember). We know that the dunyain have not yet successfully bred out emotions, and as such they must train the children, the uninitiated, in a manner more palatable to the human psyhe
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on July 01, 2014, 03:49:16 am
Great point SR!  I wonder if the

"grasping that which shouldn't be grasped"

is something like the aporos?

But you may be right: Seswatha's heart = daimos container sounds awfully appealing.

This would be wonderfully ironic, Achamian and all of the Mandate are damned because they are possessed of a demonic entity!  What Mimara sees with the judging eye has nothing to do with Akka's deeds or his purpose and everything to do with what really inhabits his flesh (albeit in ignorance).  Akka IS like the Wathi doll, but with a demon in a human's body!  It would make since for Seswatha to tell his followers to stay away from the daimotic arts so they wouldn't stumble upon the very method he uses!  Kellhus must have guessed it pretty quick tho...
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on July 02, 2014, 04:45:40 pm
Kellhus must have guessed it pretty quick tho...

Not sure how the hell he would have figured all that out before he began studying sorcery more deeply, but it at least provides us with a explanation as to how he convinced Seswatha to let Akka teach him (if that is indeed what happened). "Teach me or I'll tell everyone your secret" seems like a pretty good bargaining chip.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on July 04, 2014, 05:30:56 pm
Derp, I didn't see that as a bargaining chip.  Of course!  Kellhus in the unique position of having the gnosis without grasping the heart will perhaps be able to reveal more about Seswatha and what he's hidden from the reader.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Seökti on January 23, 2015, 06:58:18 pm
First of all I do think Kellhus would be limited by the Psûkhe, after all his passions are almost entirely subject to his persona.  Second, I'm not sure Titirga is cishaurim or even that he had Cishaurim-like powers so much as he worship the spaces between gods like the nonmen.  We have to remember in the atrocity tale Titirga was the strongest sorcerer 'to ever walk the ground', Ever.  He may have been able to propel his sorcery further by using something like the Psûkhe but ultimately his sorcery DID bear the stain, just not as deeply, so he would have definitely been using the Gnosis.  Also, Kellhus is also likely a stronger user due to the multiple inutterals.  Who knows how many he can use simultaneously now!
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2015, 07:18:58 pm
The stain is a pretty big sticking point. If he was just using the Gnosis, it would be like all the other Marks. There has never been an alternate description of the Quya mark, or any reason to believe that they are stained differently, and they certainly worshiped the way you say Titirga does.

For those reasons, I belive there must be another explanation, weather its Psuke or otherwise. Titirga was doing something no schoolman has ever done before or since, and a mixing of passion and intellect, gnosis and psuke, seems reasonable to me. Like watering down the stain, his mark remains, but is lessened.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on August 09, 2015, 07:14:00 pm
The stain is a pretty big sticking point. If he was just using the Gnosis, it would be like all the other Marks. There has never been an alternate description of the Quya mark, or any reason to believe that they are stained differently, and they certainly worshiped the way you say Titirga does.

For those reasons, I belive there must be another explanation, weather its Psuke or otherwise. Titirga was doing something no schoolman has ever done before or since, and a mixing of passion and intellect, gnosis and psuke, seems reasonable to me. Like watering down the stain, his mark remains, but is lessened.

i think you're right that it has to be something more, BUT...

if Titirga's strength and mark come from nothing more than "a mixing of passion and intellect" maybe we'll a rinsed out mark on Serwa
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on August 10, 2015, 03:40:21 pm
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: H on August 10, 2015, 04:30:21 pm
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

Let's not discount his early-life blindness as a major factor in this ability to use proto-Psûkhe.

There was probably also something special about Titirga's soul, just like there was probably something special about Fane's (considering that the Indara-Kishauri didn't discover the Psûkhe on their own).
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on August 10, 2015, 07:00:32 pm
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

Let's not discount his early-life blindness as a major factor in this ability to use proto-Psûkhe.

There was probably also something special about Titirga's soul, just like there was probably something special about Fane's (considering that the Indara-Kishauri didn't discover the Psûkhe on their own).

didn't discover it on their own?
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MSJ on August 10, 2015, 07:24:13 pm
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: H on August 10, 2015, 08:00:06 pm
didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Wilshire on August 12, 2015, 12:37:57 am
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!

That was in response to MG, who seemed to suggest that Serwe would be able to do something similar to Titirga.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on August 31, 2015, 04:57:41 pm

What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!

That was in response to MG, who seemed to suggest that Serwe would be able to do something similar to Titirga.

im lost. is Wilshire responding to me? when will TUC be out?
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on August 31, 2015, 05:02:36 pm

didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: H on August 31, 2015, 06:41:28 pm

didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)

I would think it goes a little differently.

Quote
The Prophet of the Solitary God and founder of Fanimry. Initially a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, Fane was declared a heretic by the ecclesiastical courts of the Thousand Temples in 3703 and banished to certain death in the Carathay Desert. According to Fanim tradition, rather than dying in the desert, Fane went blind, experienced the series of revelations narrated in the kipfa’aifan, the “Witness of Fane,” and was granted miraculous powers (the same powers attributed to the Cishaurim) he called the Water of Indara.

Quote
The “Indara” refer, in the Kianene tradition, to the “tribe of water-bearers,” a legendary band that supposedly wandered the dunes dispensing water and mercy to the faithful. The designation is critical (according to the kipfa’aifan, it saved Fane’s life), given the importance of tribal affiliation in desert Kianene society.

So, I think what happens is that Fane is out in the dessert, dying of thirst.  He ends up, on his deathbed, staring into the sun and blinds himself.  In doing so, he suffers the Revelations, which retrieve him out the other side of madness.  Now, here is where it is confusing, either the Indara (or some one) actually come to save him, or he imagines the Indara come and save him (and he actually uses The Water to save himself).  Either way, he now has a syncretic way to present the Water to the Kianese, building the Solitary God upon the foundation of already existing beliefs tied into the legend of the Indara and the general sacredness of Water in a place such a Kian.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: MG on August 31, 2015, 07:12:16 pm


didn't discover it on their own?

Hmm, well, it is possible that Fane invoked the name Indara solely to bank of already seated beliefs on which to build the Solitary God.

My point was broadly that the legend of the Indara never spawned Psûhke users before though.  Something was different with Fane.  Considering though that he was a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, it is unclear if he would have went into the desert with knowledge of the legend of the Indara.  Either way, something happened and it wasn't just a function of Kianese culture.  Something was particular about Fane.

cool! i had never thought of "Indara" as anything more than another neato-Bakker-word! so, Fane leaves the 1000 temples because he (she) is disillusioned, wanders into the Carathay, is dying of thirst, is found by an erratic who nurses Fane back to health before blinding him (her) in order to remember, proceeds to teach Fane magyk. the result of an insane immortal teaching a blind religious zealot end up being novel? :)

I would think it goes a little differently.

Quote
The Prophet of the Solitary God and founder of Fanimry. Initially a Shrial Priest in the Nansur province of Eumarna, Fane was declared a heretic by the ecclesiastical courts of the Thousand Temples in 3703 and banished to certain death in the Carathay Desert. According to Fanim tradition, rather than dying in the desert, Fane went blind, experienced the series of revelations narrated in the kipfa’aifan, the “Witness of Fane,” and was granted miraculous powers (the same powers attributed to the Cishaurim) he called the Water of Indara.

Quote
The “Indara” refer, in the Kianene tradition, to the “tribe of water-bearers,” a legendary band that supposedly wandered the dunes dispensing water and mercy to the faithful. The designation is critical (according to the kipfa’aifan, it saved Fane’s life), given the importance of tribal affiliation in desert Kianene society.

So, I think what happens is that Fane is out in the dessert, dying of thirst.  He ends up, on his deathbed, staring into the sun and blinds himself.  In doing so, he suffers the Revelations, which retrieve him out the other side of madness.  Now, here is where it is confusing, either the Indara (or some one) actually come to save him, or he imagines the Indara come and save him (and he actually uses The Water to save himself).  Either way, he now has a syncretic way to present the Water to the Kianese, building the Solitary God upon the foundation of already existing beliefs tied into the legend of the Indara and the general sacredness of Water in a place such a Kian.

aw cmon! u know cujara is hiding in the desert!

or maybe when the Heron Spear cracked the Carapace, whoever was in there ran away in the commotion and hid in the Carathay waiting for Fane!

fuck it, u know what i bet it was Seswathat. the real history of the 1st apocalypse is that Ses joined the Consult, provided the umph to get the Mog Project done and then climbed in the Carapace himself. he instantly regrets it. after being set free by the Heron Spear, he founds the Mandate using his spare heart full of false memories, writes the Sagas, alters the Dunyain commune to his purposes, and waits in the desert for a White Luck Warrior named Fane whom Ses will derail from his appointed task.

BLAM! ok Madness, confirm it!
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: The Sharmat on August 18, 2016, 01:28:48 am
What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.

I'd say that what makes Kellhus and Serwe special is they have no passion. The gnostic is based on meaning and the purity of said meaning. Their able to remove everything they associate with their utterals an inutterals, and its pure meaning. Incandescence geometrics, man!
Now we know that Serwe is among Kellhus's passionate children, along with Inrilatas and Kelmomas-Samarmas. So we can't go with this idea anymore. Plus, is their not meaning in passion?
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 19, 2016, 05:37:26 am
They are also not the only ones capable of using the Metagnosis.  The current Grandmaster of the Mandate is mentioned as the first person besides the Aspect-Emperor to successfully utter a Metagnostic Cant.
Title: Re: Titirga - Cishaurim, Gnostic and Daimotic?
Post by: Monkhound on August 25, 2016, 05:59:07 pm
I'm only now reading The False Sun, after reading TGO. Can't believed I missed that.
Wild idea, but I'll drop it as a try.

Titirga is grasping at what shouldn't be grasped. I was immediately thinking about the Aporos and Chorae as Wilshire mentioned so long ago, and not the Daimos.
His mark is described in a remarkably different way than any description of a Mark in any of the books so far, including that of the Inchoroi, Kellhus (at least in the last chapters of TGO, as viewed by Malowebi), Akka or Cleric/Nil'Giccas.
He is very emotional, but not in a Cishaurim way, as far as I read it. The judgement in his voice, as well as the way he looks/gazes, rather parallels another character: I was actually immediately thinking of a comparison with Mimara and her Judging Eye. I remember passages in TGO (maybe already in WLW) where Akka notices differences in her behaviour. Of course this could just as well be her pregnancy hormones and/or the Qirri, but I think it's not caused by those two.

Ever since the "flashback" at Dagliash, I'm looking for more parallels/links and the one between the stories of Titirga and Mimara have one common aspect: A huge hole in the ground, in the form of the Well of Viri where one falls to the depths, his powers failing him (Titirga) and the Great Medial Screw where the other discovers a potential super-power (the revelation of the Chorae as a Tear of God) of which we don't know much yet (Mimara).

In my view, the quote below from The False Sun at least seems to suggest to me Titirga can see more than the Mark:

Quote
A lunatic God… perhaps. The Hells that you think you see. Something… Something adulterate, foul. Something that craves feasting, that hungers with an intensity that can bend the very Ground.”
[...]
Does that not trouble you?” the Hero-Mage pressed. “That you have but one eye!”