The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: MG on October 22, 2014, 10:52:32 pm

Title: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 22, 2014, 10:52:32 pm
GO WILD!

1) Seswatha learned the heart trick from someone else.  One of the few things he took with him from the Library was the recovered heart of Titirga!!!

2) Cnaiur is so special because he has dunyain blood in him from someone on his mom's side.

3) Golgotterath isn't even there.  Instead there's a mansion named Golgotterath full of nonmen distort by eons of sin, their own memories warped as well and rebuilt into delusion.

4) The space between the gods is Ajokli but he doesn't care who worships him.  He lets on that Yatwer an co. can change the course of Earwan history, but they are hanging from his puppet strings too.

5) Mimara is literally the daughter of Yatwer.

6) Kellhus already found the Heron Spear and broke it.

7) There are more nonman mansions south of Nilnamesh than north of it.

GO CRAZY!!!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on October 25, 2014, 02:12:14 am
I don't know how CRAZY this really is (I know I've seen it thrown around before), but I really think that parentage can often be far more relevant on a metaphysical/emotional level than a simple biological one. Like Mimara, in a wonky metaphysical way, really IS Achamian's daughter. Sorweel is the ally in the Niom, the metaphysical "son" of Kellhus, while Lil' Moe is the enemy, due to being the true son of Cnaiur (and Serwa), despite having been raised as the "false son" (lol) of Kellhus and presumably having been given rudimentary Dunyain advice to some extent, similar to the way that Esmi has.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on October 26, 2014, 09:36:54 am
This isn't actually my theory.  My mother pitched this one to me.

Mekeretrig is 100% sane from having found a loophole out of the post-immortal mind degeneration.  He basically fakes the behavior of an erratic so no one knows.  And fakes his absurd power level as well.

Rationale:  The inverse fire completely and utterly reveals the truth of one's damnation.  After his exposure to the IF, the existential horror and trauma of this act tainted and brutalized every memory of his life.  Even the banal and happy memories became trauma, with the knowledge that comes from all of it being meaningless from damnation.  So he remembers everything... because all of his memory is fundamentally suffering now.

BUT, instead of just normal memory, he is basically Disciple Manning.  He remembers EVERYTHING with supernatural clarity.  This enhanced level of cognition means that Mek has had millennia of time to utilized his enhanced mental function to hone his Quya craft to reach Meta-Quya levels.
 
Cue Mekeretrig/Kellhus Meta-super-Gnostic battle to end all battles in Earwa

*drops the mic*
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Ozark on October 27, 2014, 10:54:58 pm
The Ansurimbor to come in the Celmonan prophecy will actually be..






Ansurimbor Mimara
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Aural on October 27, 2014, 11:44:49 pm
The No-God has already risen in AE but no one knows yet.

Moenghus didn't come from Ishual in the first place.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Garet Jax on October 28, 2014, 12:10:30 am
The entire series is "The Thousandfold Thought" still being processed in Ishual.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on October 28, 2014, 01:35:01 am
The entire series is "The Thousandfold Thought" still being processed in Ishual.


I actually think is (or was) true. I don't believe the Thousandfold Thought was something Moe came up with himself, but instead for the Dunyain it was a sort of conceptual half-way point between the Shortest Path and the Absolute (I.E. becoming God, the only self-moving soul). To put it another way, the Thousandfold Thought was something the Dunyain knew would and/or must happen before reaching the Absolute. It is, quite literally, the series/collection of thoughts necessary to achieve their goal, which again is basically becoming God (since in this universe, God is the only truly self-moving soul). The Shortest Path isn't just the best way to get there, it's the ONLY way. The Golden Path, if you will, a la Dune.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 28, 2014, 02:23:37 am
The entire series is "The Thousandfold Thought" still being processed in Ishual.

I LOVE THIS SO MUCH - EVEN BETTER THAN READING HARRY POTTER AS THE STORY OF A BOY TRAUMATIZED BY LOSING HIS PARENTS IN A CAR WRECK
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on October 29, 2014, 10:56:50 pm
Another one: I don't think Seswatha's going to turn out to be that nice of a dude. I don't think he's like, straight up evil or anything, but I think we will learn that he was very much a schemer, and probably went to extreme lengths to save his soul from Damnation (which ended up being the Mandate). I think there are hints of this with the Nau-Cayuti stuff as well.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Triskele on October 30, 2014, 03:22:18 am
Agreed on something being up with Seswatha though I don't have a well-formed theory.  I just think there's something much more going on than he started the Mandate to save the world from the Consult and the No-God.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 04, 2014, 12:01:30 pm
I don't know how CRAZY this really is (I know I've seen it thrown around before), but I really think that parentage can often be far more relevant on a metaphysical/emotional level than a simple biological one. Like Mimara, in a wonky metaphysical way, really IS Achamian's daughter. Sorweel is the ally in the Niom, the metaphysical "son" of Kellhus, while Lil' Moe is the enemy, due to being the true son of Cnaiur (and Serwa), despite having been raised as the "false son" (lol) of Kellhus and presumably having been given rudimentary Dunyain advice to some extent, similar to the way that Esmi has.

LOL - Serwa's actually got a weenie, but has a traitorous heart, is the false son!  for reals tho, Sorweel is literally Kellhus son, because Kellhus has been to Sakarpus before, as Proyas tells Harweel???

@ Ozark - love it!  it actually fits with an Anasurimbor leading the gods into the frey!

@ H/P - kudos to your Mom!  i don't even know what this battle would look like--the Ark melts?!?!

@ Akkeagni - oh wow!  the Great Ordeal is screwed!!  maybe if they keep Mog inside the Ark, the world can't feel him?

the old Moe that appears in TTT is an elaborate deception created by the Cishaurim after they seized the real Moe decades ago--bearing the water means they can see through his Dunyain deceptions, so they prepare for the coming of his son, and make ready to sacrifice themselves for the salvation of the world!

@ Triskele and FB - Seswatha's gonna be a fucking meth dealer or something

MORE CRAZY:

Bakker will break the 4th wall in TUC and spend 400 pages writing about what it's like to be a writer

The Consult employs the skin-spy equivalent of horses and dogs which will be loosed on the Great Ordeal

Did i mention the one where Serwa has a weenie?

Seswatha lying--he passed on a false memory to the Mandate; they dying Celmomas specifically predicts the return of an Anasurimbor DAUGHTER

The apparent lack of Dunyain women is just like Dwarves in Tolkien, all Dunyain women have beards and Moe is actually Kel's mom (Kel's real dad died ages ago when Cnaiur killed him and was driven mad with guilt, erasing his own conscious memories of the murder)
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 04, 2014, 05:52:48 pm
The original Dunyain were all killed off shortly after arriving at Ishual.  They were replaced by a crowd of rebellious runaway tekne products, the precursors of what would eventually become skin-spies.

Iyokus is the puppet-master behind the whole narrative.

During the First Apocalypse, one sorcerer was driven by desperation to try something that was utterly taboo to both men and nonmen--eat the salt of a dead sorcerer.  Bakker likes the mental blinder that "to a man with a hammer, every problem is a nail."  No one had ever thought of ingesting sorcerous salt and no one has since, except for a sith-like tradition running from before Shir to the Scarlett Spires.  The secret of chanv.

To a normal person, drinking chanv, makes you smarter and more long-lived, but to a sorcerer, the effect is to increase intelligence astronomically.  Sorcerous chanv addicts (who eat the real thing and not the diluted stuff peddled to the Ainoni aristocrats) become intelligent on a scale that makes Dunyain look like children.

These uber-chanvers set about to manipulate world events to bring about an undoing of their own damnation and a domination of all the world and the Outside.  They knew they could not achieve it in one generation, so they pass the quest on master to disciple until one addict will be able to finish the design.  That addict is Iyokus.

Even now he manipulates all the threads that were so long ago created to fulfill the plan: the Dunyain, the Cishaurim, the Mandate, the Scarlet Spires, the other Schools, the Witches...

WHAT DOES THE BLIND NECROMANCER PLOT???
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Aural on November 04, 2014, 10:45:30 pm
Maithanet is behind it all.

As Achamian writes,

Quote
Maithanet. Without a doubt, the heart of the mystery. The Shriah who could see the Few. Inrau’s murderer—perhaps.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 04, 2014, 11:21:47 pm
inspired by profgrape's question!

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1467.msg19379#msg19379

the Consult HQ has already been moved to Ishterebinth in an attempt to destroy the Great Ordeal as it must march in and out of Agongorea.  Kellhus however suspects and this is the real reason Serwa is there.  she has been ordered to scout and communicate via dreams with Daddio

this is why Madness was so moved by the Ishterebinth bits of TUC!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on November 09, 2014, 08:04:17 pm
1. The Inchoroi Arc is a space vessel as least, but as most — both a crashed time mashine and a failed self-moving soul from the future, both a No-God prototype and a No-God MK2. Like, mastery over time itself is a required achievement in perceiving what comes before everything.
2.  Would be funny if the Arc is also time-looped entity an was built from it's own lifeless carcass. That explains why Earwa is a promised land — in the end Inchoroi led their dying ship back to the shipyard.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 04:24:30 am
This isn't actually my theory.  My mother pitched this one to me.
A mother reading TSA is fascinating speculation. Could it be true? ...

The Ansurimbor to come in the Celmonan prophecy will actually be..

Ansurimbor Mimara
I'll never understand the continued fascination with this. The world is ending, we know this, the prophecy has done been fulfilled. Who the Anasurimbor was is largely irrelevant at this point, at least in regard to the prophecy... Isn't it?

Bakker will break the 4th wall in TUC and spend 400 pages writing about what it's like to be a writer
The way was too short. The journey broke him, returning him a madman.

The original Dunyain were all killed off shortly after arriving at Ishual.  They were replaced by a crowd of rebellious runaway tekne products, the precursors of what would eventually become skin-spies.
Smells like Chapterhouse: Dune. I can dig it.

2.  Would be funny if the Arc is also time-looped entity an was built from it's own lifeless carcass. That explains why Earwa is a promised land — in the end Inchoroi led their dying ship back to the shipyard.
They have traveled so far and so long, they forgot why Earwa was the promised land. It was the world they originally left, eons ago (or perhaps haven't yet left, depending on time traveling ridiculousness).
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Phallus Pendulus on November 11, 2014, 02:59:08 pm
This isn't actually my theory.  My mother pitched this one to me.
A mother reading TSA is fascinating speculation. Could it be true?

What do you mean, it's weird? I re-enact the Ikurei Xerius chapters with my mother every weekend.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 11, 2014, 03:12:37 pm
Every time I see the title, force of habit changes where the hyphen should be. Instead of Crazy-Ass speculation, Crazy Ass-speculation.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Ozark on November 14, 2014, 01:55:55 am
While we're on Crazy Biblical/Messianic Speculation, let's do Kellhus vs. Simon Magus

Simon Magus is a foreigner among the Jews      Kellhus is a foreigner among the Inrithi

Simon Magus is a sorcerer                               Kellhus is a sorcerer

Simon Magus is instructed by Simon Peter        Kellhus is instructed in the "Gnosis" by Akka (note he is now Simon Peter analogue)
in healing thru the Holy Spirit

Simon Magus claims to have been crucified,     Kellhus is circumfixed, and may have survived by supernatural means
but survived by supernatural means

Simon Magus arouses controversy by marrying Kellhus does just the same
a whore.

Simon Magus is condemned by Simon Peter      Kellhus is condemned by Akka

Simon magus creates a highly elaborate form    Kellhus creates the meta-gnosis
of Gnostic religion

Simon Magus proclaims equality of the sexes     Kellhus creates female schools of sorcery

Simon Magus declares himself essentially a god  Ditto Kellhus

Simon Magus has a statue of himself                Kellhus becomes emperor
erected in the imperial capitol


Later, Simon Magus (Kellhus) is eventually defeated by Simon Peter (Akka) in what essentially amounts to a wizard's dual.

The Jesus similarities are a smokescreen for Kellhus being another Simon Magus, aka false messiah.

Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 14, 2014, 04:32:23 am
Seems like the classic tale of a prophet then.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Ozark on November 15, 2014, 12:10:37 am
Seems like the classic tale of a prophet then.

Absolutely not!  With all due respect of course.

The archetype of the prophet who marries a whore is of course Hosea, who only symbolically did this to prove a point, and did not presumably consummate the relationship.  For someone to openly do such a thing has only one precursor (Magus) unless you are a Dan Brown fan.

It seems fairly straightforward to me that the narrative is very up front with Christ imagery, but upon further examination Kellhus bears a far greater resemblance to Simon Magus.  I'm sorry to say, no one else even remotely fits the bill.

The question is - how familiar is Bakker with our sources on Magus - from canonical Acts of the Apostles, to apocryphal acts, to the clementine literature and homilies, - I even wonder how familiar he might be with Hellenistic romantic fiction and the recurring motif of false death and crucifixion survival.

This is a "crazy speculation" thread, after all, but I'd be curious to know what Bakker knows about Simon Magus, or even perhaps the Tubingen school of radical critics who associated him with Pauline non-Torah based Christianity.

Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 15, 2014, 03:42:47 am
Considering what the google machine turns up when I google Magus, him starting the gnostic religion and all the things you said. Seems to fit the bill. But, to me, it seems like an obscure connection.

I don't see much difference between they Christ guy and the Magus guy.

Any other prophets from other religions that fit the bill as well? If there are 2, there must be more. Dune's many prophets come to mind.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 16, 2014, 08:05:30 pm
Every time I see the title, force of habit changes where the hyphen should be. Instead of Crazy-Ass speculation, Crazy Ass-speculation.

 :o :-[ :'(

---------------

Ozark, that is crazy interesting!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 16, 2014, 09:34:22 pm
- Nau-Cayuti is Nil'giccas' son

- Aurax has been replace with an Inchoroi skin-spy

- The Mimaran prophecy specifically states that a pregnant woman with the gift of the few will follow a demon-possessed man into the wastes.  That man is ... Achamian!  The pov that the reader is exposed to really is Achamian's pov, but he is entirely unaware that all of his thoughts and actions are controlled by a ciphrang hiding behind the wizard's soul.  This demon is bent on sewing discord in the world.  Zioz never left Earwa!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on November 17, 2014, 02:38:28 am
- The Mimaran prophecy specifically states that a pregnant woman with the gift of the few will follow a demon-possessed man into the wastes.  That man is ... Achamian!  The pov that the reader is exposed to really is Achamian's pov, but he is entirely unaware that all of his thoughts and actions are controlled by a ciphrang hiding behind the wizard's soul.  This demon is bent on sewing discord in the world.  Zioz never left Earwa!

Wait, where was this Mimara prophecy detailed? I don't recall it...

Regardless, to put a twist on your theory: Achamian is the possesed person, but it's not a Ciphrang that's possessing him. It's Seswatha.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 17, 2014, 03:22:06 pm
"Mimaran Prophecy" lol. Yes, MG, were did you find that. Lost page on the Sagas or something?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 17, 2014, 03:59:11 pm
- The Mimaran prophecy specifically states that a pregnant woman with the gift of the few will follow a demon-possessed man into the wastes.  That man is ... Achamian!  The pov that the reader is exposed to really is Achamian's pov, but he is entirely unaware that all of his thoughts and actions are controlled by a ciphrang hiding behind the wizard's soul.  This demon is bent on sewing discord in the world.  Zioz never left



Wait, where was this Mimara prophecy detailed? I don't recall it...

Regardless, to put a twist on your theory: Achamian is the possesed person, but it's not a Ciphrang that's possessing him. It's Seswatha.

FB im just thinking of the convo between Aurang and the soma skinspy
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 17, 2014, 04:00:06 pm
Seems to fit! :)
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on November 21, 2014, 02:13:07 am
Carindusu was a skin-spy.  The Consult were already working on producing skin-spies with souls and producing skin-spies with normal human seeming musculature.  The entire Great Ordeal is infected with this new breed of skin-spy.  The consult had an old skin-spy attend the meeting of believer kings at the end of TJE to continue nurturing a confirmation bias in Kellhus.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: profgrape on November 21, 2014, 10:56:13 pm
Regardless, to put a twist on your theory: Achamian is the possesed person, but it's not a Ciphrang that's possessing him. It's Seswatha.
If true, it would certainly explain a few things.  The question is, does Kellhus know about the "possession"?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2014, 02:14:42 am
Convinced Seswatha in Akka that he was a stronger host, the strongest in fact. After years of internal strife, one man now controls the body, but which is it?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on December 11, 2014, 02:37:10 pm
- The Mimaran prophecy specifically states that a pregnant woman with the gift of the few will follow a demon-possessed man into the wastes.  That man is ... Achamian!  The pov that the reader is exposed to really is Achamian's pov, but he is entirely unaware that all of his thoughts and actions are controlled by a ciphrang hiding behind the wizard's soul.  This demon is bent on sewing discord in the world.  Zioz never left Earwa!

Wait, where was this Mimara prophecy detailed? I don't recall it...

Regardless, to put a twist on your theory: Achamian is the possesed person, but it's not a Ciphrang that's possessing him. It's Seswatha.

FB, i'm intrigued--do you think that there is any difference between being a grasper and being possessed?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on December 15, 2014, 09:36:44 pm
This just struck me the other day.  Who is going to take the institutional position of the Shriah, or does the position even need to be filled?   Is Esmi going to basically appoint whomever she wants? Or is the Shriah just moot at this point.

My money is on the WLW becoming the new Shriah.  Because. Speculation.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2014, 09:40:08 pm
I've never thought about that ... Maybe she will consolidate her power by assuming 'temporary' leadership? I mean, she's banging the savior and has a bunch of his kids. How better to be the spiritual leader?

WLW becoming Shriah is delicious though.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on December 15, 2014, 09:46:53 pm
There's Proyas line in WLW about old vices become new virtues; "Women now had equal standing as men, sorcerers were now priests."  Maybe Esmi could be a female Shriah.  Why not?

Or, Psatma and the Yatwerians get a pro-cultic Shriah elected.  Just another thing to fuck over the New Empire that Esmi has to deal with.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Aural on December 15, 2014, 09:59:28 pm
Kelmomas takes his place.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on December 18, 2014, 10:10:19 am
This just struck me the other day.  Who is going to take the institutional position of the Shriah, or does the position even need to be filled?   Is Esmi going to basically appoint whomever she wants? Or is the Shriah just moot at this point.

My money is on the WLW becoming the new Shriah.  Because. Speculation.

weell that's awesome!

LOL @ Akkeagni!

it's too bad Inrilatas isn't around, what a shriah he would make!  while i'm in this area of speculation--Esmi installs the new shriah: Theliopia!

with the No-God vanquished, her father disappeared, the Great Ordeal consumed in the wilderness, Theli uses her new power to seize control of the entire 3 seas instituting a reign of terror!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Garet Jax on December 18, 2014, 06:57:39 pm
...Theli uses her new power to seize control of the entire 3 seas instituting a reign of terror!

I would agree that an endless stuttering loop of NPR could be classified as a reign of terror.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on December 22, 2014, 08:55:15 pm
...Theli uses her new power to seize control of the entire 3 seas instituting a reign of terror!

I would agree that an endless stuttering loop of NPR could be classified as a reign of terror.

lol, i can't remember it, but i think this is a specific show on the air...

1. The very first inchoroi who were captured by the nonmen were not in fact put to death.  They were Aurang and Aurax and they were imprisoned for years upon years in Ishterebinth.  This is why they were not killed when the nonmen cleased the Ark.  Mekeritrig let them go later.

2. When Aurax finally did fuse a head into his mouth, he used the head of Cujara Cinmoi.  We will see Cujara's head in TUC!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: locke on December 29, 2014, 07:19:41 am
This just struck me the other day.  Who is going to take the institutional position of the Shriah, or does the position even need to be filled?   Is Esmi going to basically appoint whomever she wants? Or is the Shriah just moot at this point.


1. Kelmomas, obviously. :D

2. Yes

3. she thinks she is doing what she wants

4. Not at all moot, The Shriah maintains the conglomerate fate.  Kelmomas as Shriah, or a freudian lack of Shriah will probably be crucial to the dis-integration of the cults from the Inrithi religion that has unified them.  This shattering will be culturally traumatic, and conflict that insues will provide the wedges and levers needed for the cults to be suppressed their gods discredited and the Inrithi faith to be ecumenically displaced by the Kianene faith via a council of Nicea event.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on December 29, 2014, 05:02:31 pm
Wow, very nice locke.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on December 31, 2014, 08:24:54 pm
This just struck me the other day.  Who is going to take the institutional position of the Shriah, or does the position even need to be filled?   Is Esmi going to basically appoint whomever she wants? Or is the Shriah just moot at this point.


1. Kelmomas, obviously. :D

2. Yes

3. she thinks she is doing what she wants

4. Not at all moot, The Shriah maintains the conglomerate fate.  Kelmomas as Shriah, or a freudian lack of Shriah will probably be crucial to the dis-integration of the cults from the Inrithi religion that has unified them.  This shattering will be culturally traumatic, and conflict that insues will provide the wedges and levers needed for the cults to be suppressed their gods discredited and the Inrithi faith to be ecumenically displaced by the Kianene faith via a council of Nicea event.

wow!  very nice!  but won't it really be ... SAMI THE SHRIAH???
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: coobek on January 20, 2015, 03:56:19 pm
I was thinking about logistics and economics of the AE and the March towards Golgoterath.

What if the current crusade is just to fertilize ground and, secretly, Kelhus has been planting trees, wheat and what not on the road with all dead fertilizer.

To reap the riches in a next true crusade in 10-15 years time...to have all the food ready for bigger, healthier and thus more powerfull host.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on January 20, 2015, 04:08:00 pm
Haha that would be a pretty big gambit. He would have to defend a huge swath of land for that time to prevent the Consult from destroying everything, and I doubt the Three Seas has that many bodies left at home.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: coobek on January 20, 2015, 04:17:08 pm
Well I was not thinking of defending - it will just - well - grow.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Garet Jax on January 20, 2015, 05:07:23 pm
Well Sranc pretty much leave the natural world alone, so unless the Consult was privy to K's plans, it could work?


Aside from it being a pretty large and reaching gambit, that is.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 20, 2015, 10:31:03 pm

first post o well see how it goes o
ps i wish my mom would recommend secrets to me!!

ao in ainoni ajokli is spelled t100 = 1%/1%/1% o basically o

bo serwa is hecate x the darkness x and has redeemed all sex x and actually does have a wennie x and a band called perfume genius o

co earwa is the 55555th world the consult have gone to x making it the final world in all known existence o and all addiction follows in the wake of the consults entering and leaving of world after world x which iyokus somehow knew o and i think chanv is breast milk but i might be wrong o

do golgotterath exists in three places not one o one is whitehorse x canada x then the tarsands x also in canada o the third is around the tip of mexico the southernmost point that doors the gulf o

eo the consult is actually EVERYWHERE though they are out numbered by the resistance o persyns who are consult in the story oo pokwas x oswora x xonghis x nau-cayuti x galian x sarl! x gilgaol x onkis x ankeagie x skaiyelt x yalgrota x and xunnurit who is literally death the angel of death o

fo though bakker might break the fourth wall in TUC and start writing about writing x so far the series has been about two things mainly oo ballet x of which achamian is the master teacher x and the history and salvation of rap x hence the vokalati o

go aurax is actually not consult but pretends to be and people buy it even aurang and sil and the rest of the consult o

ho achamian IS seswatha who is bakunin who is paul from the new testament epistles who is the greatest teacher of ballet in the world o also x achamian being possessed by the readers x all 55555 of them is what allows bakker to break the fourth wall in TUC o


 ;)
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Aural on January 21, 2015, 08:02:33 am
Excellent post, AM! ...

Anyway. Wutteät was in the library of Sauglish all along. Why else would he not make an appearance in the First Apocalypse?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on January 21, 2015, 02:39:16 pm
Welcome to the forum AM. I'd have to say your choice of text color is strenuous, and the formatting of you post was difficult to parse, but regardless, cool thoughts.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st on January 22, 2015, 11:02:20 am
First post so here goes. We know thanks to Mimara's Judging Eye that chorae are in fact true tears of God, and Kellhus tells us sorcerers are pieces of the God that recollect Himself the most, soo what if by using chorae on a sorcerer you actually send the God's pieces back to Him and all thats left is the salt from His tears.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on January 22, 2015, 11:41:00 am
That's an interesting theory.

What does this theory say about the differences in Chorae reactions with the Psukhe?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st on January 22, 2015, 12:11:14 pm
Since the Cishuarim are also salted by chorae I'd say the theory applies to them as well, regardless of their faith or the lack of a sorcererous mark
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Garet Jax on January 22, 2015, 12:48:34 pm
Great first couple posts!  Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on January 22, 2015, 02:05:48 pm
First post so here goes. We know thanks to Mimara's Judging Eye that chorae are in fact true tears of God, and Kellhus tells us sorcerers are pieces of the God that recollect Himself the most, soo what if by using chorae on a sorcerer you actually send the God's pieces back to Him and all thats left is the salt from His tears.

Welcome to the forum. That is a brilliant analogy, and terribly ironic since I feel like being sent to God sounds like the closest thing to Heaven one might achieve in Earwa.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on January 22, 2015, 08:30:52 pm
Yeah that's really fucking good. The name Tears of God was something I always wondered about.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 23, 2015, 06:31:33 pm
So by the end of the White Luck Warrior 'the gods are riding to war'.  What if Kellhus is planning on pitching the Gods against the consult, what if he's planning on showing the Gods the threat of the Inchoroi (which according to legend they seem blind to).  I believe Kellhus is planning on dying by the hand of the White Luck warrior, but perhaps by the time this happens the very Gods who sent out the WhiteLuck will wish they hadn't killed him.  I have a hard time imagining Kellhus doesn't know about it so I have to assume that he's worked out a plan for when it inevitably happens that he's killed by this messenger of Yatwer.  Imagine if the gods of the thousand temples ride out against the consult.  It's sort of inconceivable, but its just a 'what-if' at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 25, 2015, 10:59:48 pm
takes all the water out o thats fing brilliant!!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on January 25, 2015, 11:03:13 pm
but you cant forget....

some of the hundred gods are on the consults side o

not all of them x and not most of them x

and not ajokli x

but....
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on February 11, 2015, 04:22:35 am
First post so here goes. We know thanks to Mimara's Judging Eye that chorae are in fact true tears of God, and Kellhus tells us sorcerers are pieces of the God that recollect Himself the most, soo what if by using chorae on a sorcerer you actually send the God's pieces back to Him and all thats left is the salt from His tears.

that's an awesome idea!  so Kellhus master plan maybe to kill as many sorcerers as possible in the end?  and then himself?  the pieces rejoining God reach an event horizon and all of the other sorcerous schools are sucked in (i'm still hoping that Malowebi's school is sailing up to meet the Great Ordeal)

AM!  i sure hope we see the gods on the battlefield!  gods vs gods; gods vs nogod; gods vs quya or great ordeal or consult or Eannan hordes it will be amazing to read!!!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 22, 2015, 03:49:42 pm
There is one disturbing similarity between Mandate & Consult, when both factions are driven by irresistable revelation (Seswatha’s Dreams for the first and Inverse Fire for the second). In fact, they even share the same outcome, for remorseless of Quorum members are limited only by their short life-spans (compared to mangaeccans) and overall pettyness (caused by 2-3 hundred years of lull). So, here's a quick crackpot.

When speaking about plans witnin plans, you can always split their viscera between explicit goal, hidden goal and real goal.

What is the explicit goal of the Dreams? To show dreamers both their enemy and it's heavenly danger.
What is the hidden goal? To make dreamers as zealous and persistent as possible, there is a kinda literal convertation of their bittering souls to the world's welfare.
What is the real goal? Here I stand for the Inverse Fire. Like, while nicking the Heron Spear, Seswatha also witnessed the IF, so reliving that Ses experience should count as witnessing the IF by yourself. It's not an easy task, considering Dreams to have a common, rare and exclusive parts, but nonetheless easier than storming Min Uroikas or siding with Consult.

I like this guess mostly becase of a certain promethean motif. A titan (Ses is badass battlemage) sneaking atop mountain of gods (Horns of Golgottherath are towering high) to steal their secret fire and carry it out to the mundanes? Check all three and add a little bonus for the Wall of Torment in Dagliash, where they fixed Ses with nails.

Also, a few questions.

Is it possible to go though the Grasping while being not of a Few? Can a generic mandati heart become a base for a second foundation artifact with diluted properties (so grasped ones will relieve the life of, let's say, Drusas Achamian, who sometime dreams of Seswatha's Apocalypse and mostly never about witnessing IF)? Is there any chance of different outcomes after looking into IF? Could inchoroi and mangaeccans have mistaken and taken a wrong path? Can a mandate adept take a good path and is there a shortest one? What will a duniyain see through the IF?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 22, 2015, 09:02:25 pm
What will a duniyain see through the IF?
Maybe we'll find out, through Serwe. Though she's only half-Dunyain, to be sure.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2015, 06:54:42 pm
There is one disturbing similarity between Mandate & Consult,

Nice connections. Maybe The Consult are just an excuse for Seswatha to pursue his rival school from beyond the grave.

Is it possible to go though the Grasping while being not of a Few?
Magic can be done to the non-few, so I imagine that yes, its possible.

Can a generic mandati heart become a base for a second foundation artifact with diluted properties (so grasped ones will relieve the life of, let's say, Drusas Achamian, who sometime dreams of Seswatha's Apocalypse and mostly never about witnessing IF)?
Its possible, though terribly ineffective if the goal was still to see Seswath's life.
On that note, I wonder if the Mandati dream Seswatha's dreams? Would they be able to tell the difference?

Is there any chance of different outcomes after looking into IF?
I think so. Hopefully Mimara looks into it.

Could inchoroi and mangaeccans have mistaken and taken a wrong path?
I'm sure they tried many, many ways to stop their damnation, but that doesn't mean they found the one and only solution to it, if indeed they found any.
The 144k and Garden of Eden mythos seem awfully unscientific for a race of super advanced scientists.

Can a mandate adept take a good path and is there a shortest one?
Not sure what the question is. What do you mean?

What will a duniyain see through the IF?
Goes back to what the IF actually shows, if it is 'correct', and if different races/species/people all see the same thing.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 24, 2015, 09:14:59 pm
The (normal) Mandati specifically dream only certain important episodes from Seswatha's life. Thus the "Seswatha never shit" saying.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: anasurimbor moenghus on February 25, 2015, 03:11:22 am
i think the '144,000 is the very number of doom' saying has to do with trees.
cause on terra there are no gods, or something, and the way everyone exists is that they each have a certain number of trees, or something, that together contain their souls, which is why everyone who is a nonman pretty much only have three gestures that they can do that are different ways of existing, different ways of respecting other persyns. i think there's something like that when there's 144,000 trees left for each persyn no one can lay down anymore. or maybe no one can move. cause i think that when the trees start running out the humyns will start freaking out because trees stand up for us all the time so that we can sit down and lay down whenever we want.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 03:49:00 am
Moenghus...you're mad.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on February 25, 2015, 04:16:28 pm
Kellhus will steal the Inverse Fire and reprogram it to show not hell but heaven, compelling all who see it to believe that they will only reach heaven if they give themselves utterly to the Kellic faith
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 04:23:36 pm
Kellic?

Alternatives:
Kellhudisium, Kellistianity, Kellamic :P
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 25, 2015, 09:28:31 pm
I'm pretty sure "kellic" is actually a unit of currency.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2015, 09:48:21 pm
I'm pretty sure "kellic" is actually a unit of currency.
This seems correct.


Kellam
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Somnambulist on February 26, 2015, 12:38:21 am
kellian
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 26, 2015, 12:44:52 am
On that note, I wonder if the Mandati dream Seswatha's dreams? Would they be able to tell the difference?
That depends on Seswatha's skills with lucid dreaming, I suppose. Also that provides us with an explanation of these"prisoner's dreams". There could be a "zero" heart or some other limb, grasped by Seswatha himself. Possibly, as a test of such mnemonic technology?

Not sure what the question is. What do you mean?
That's mostly about duniyain ability to fight with the unfathomable causality by walking the shortest paths. If the IF is an honest damnation-meter, that's a very useful device for these monks, a practical method to map all the darkness that came before them. If the IF is a lying hoax, duniyain are among those few who can reveal deception without succumbing to it.

Goes back to what the IF actually shows, if it is 'correct', and if different races/species/people all see the same thing.
Considering the name of the thread, I cannot resist. Here's two guesses.
1) 42
2) I will be late. Your Solitary God. PS don't feed ciphrangs after your're dead

Kellhus will steal the Inverse Fire and reprogram it to show not hell but heaven, compelling all who see it to believe that they will only reach heaven if they give themselves utterly to the Kellic faith
Considering skin-spies are a keepers of the IF, such theft could turn them into fighter-priest around warrior-prophet. YAY! Badass lackeys for badass boss.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 26, 2015, 01:14:42 am
Yeah, the Skin-Spies say they're the keepers of the Inverse Fire...but keep in mind they seem to have no idea what that actually means. Skin-Spies are exceedingly shallow creatures, if Cnaiur's time with them is anything to go by.

kellian
Yeah that's the descriptor used in the books. Kellian Empire is on the map I believe.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 26, 2015, 01:46:20 am
kellian
Yeah that's the descriptor used in the books. Kellian Empire is on the map I believe.

Yes, Kellian Empire which use the Kellic as a currency, but I was looking for names for a religion with kellhus with modern day suffixes :P.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Somnambulist on February 26, 2015, 02:06:04 am
Kellhist (Buddhist/Taoist)
Kellestant (Protestant)
Kellindu (Hindu)
Kellinastrian (Zoroastrianism)

Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 26, 2015, 03:09:01 am
I like Kellindu :D
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on February 26, 2015, 03:36:07 am
Kelloorue
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 26, 2015, 04:18:44 am
I think in the books they just call it Zaudunyani Inrithism. As opposed to Orthodox Inrithism.

/party pooper
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 26, 2015, 12:03:27 pm
I think in the books they just call it Zaudunyani Inrithism. As opposed to Orthodox Inrithism.

/party pooper
:(
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on February 26, 2015, 01:32:50 pm
Skin-Spies are exceedingly shallow creatures
I wonder, what will change of that feature when the NG walks? As far as I remember, hordes of scranc were rallied by his influence to a point when they were instantly screaming his (inner?) monologue to the mundane world. It's hard to decide if that shallowness helps such posession or complicates it.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 26, 2015, 04:23:52 pm
I always wondered how the NG "seized" the Sranc when they are soulless?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 27, 2015, 12:38:11 am
The No-God itself is supposedly soulless. It's a mystery.

I wonder, what will change of that feature when the NG walks? As far as I remember, hordes of scranc were rallied by his influence to a point when they were instantly screaming his (inner?) monologue to the mundane world. It's hard to decide if that shallowness helps such posession or complicates it.
The general effect seems to be a newfound fanaticism on behalf of the No-God. Though I'm not sure all of the Derived are really shallow. Skin-Spies and Sranc are about as deep as they need to be. Wracu may be different.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 27, 2015, 02:40:38 pm
I wonder if the No-God counts as an ensoulled creature once it has begun hoovering operations?

On a serious note intellect and the soul have some connection in Earwa, paradoxical understanding being an example. If the heart is the seat of the soul, where is the seat of the intellect?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2015, 04:24:55 pm
The head/brain area? Where else would it be.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on February 27, 2015, 07:31:32 pm
For some reason I just feel like all thought arise from the soul in Earwa - that's how I think the Cants of Compulsion work. You're probably right though - dumb supposition.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2015, 07:43:34 pm
It can't simply be just the soul though, since you can have soul/intellect without the other.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 27, 2015, 08:38:17 pm
I think most thought and emotion is actually wetware and the people of Earwa for the most part attribute it to the soul out of ignorance. Except in the case of Shauriatas, who has managed through unknown means to house every aspect of his mind in a free-floating soul. But that was apparently really strange and unexpected.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2015, 09:33:48 pm
I think that exception disproves your rule. If Shauriatas could do it, I think its pretty safe to say that anyone can because of something fundamental he figured out (but no one else has) about the connections between intellect/emotion/soul. Sauriatas wouldn't be able to work with something that isn't there.

Same idea that with the Inchoroi grafting sorcery making it fundamentally genetic, i.e physical, rather than spiritual. If it wasn't genetic, they wouldn't have been able to do it.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MSJ on February 27, 2015, 09:49:04 pm
My crazy ass speculation is that Kelmommas will kill the WLW. I've thrown this out at Westeros and never got any input back on it. First, Kel and WLW are obviously both in Momemn so the setting allows it. What I envision is that the WLW will be waiting in Esement's bedroom to kill her. And, Kel will be in the hidden tunnels and will see him. And, we don't have to discuss the links he will go to protect his mothers love. He'll sneak up on him and skewer him in the eye. His traditional method. I don't see the WLW killing the Anasurimbor family, he'll be stopped, and this is in my mind, the most likely outcome.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on February 27, 2015, 10:02:17 pm
I think that exception disproves your rule. If Shauriatas could do it, I think its pretty safe to say that anyone can because of something fundamental he figured out (but no one else has) about the connections between intellect/emotion/soul. Sauriatas wouldn't be able to work with something that isn't there.

Same idea that with the Inchoroi grafting sorcery making it fundamentally genetic, i.e physical, rather than spiritual. If it wasn't genetic, they wouldn't have been able to do it.
If I make a digital copy of my brain via computer, does that mean my mind wasn't based in neurochemistry at all?

Rather, I think that Shauriatas accomplishing that proved that, under normal conditions, it's almost all wetware. Since before him any soul transplants left nothing like a mind intact. He had to come up with new things to host his intellect and emotions outside of his brain.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 07:06:40 pm
My crazy ass speculation is that Kelmommas will kill the WLW. I've thrown this out at Westeros and never got any input back on it. First, Kel and WLW are obviously both in Momemn so the setting allows it. What I envision is that the WLW will be waiting in Esement's bedroom to kill her. And, Kel will be in the hidden tunnels and will see him. And, we don't have to discuss the links he will go to protect his mothers love. He'll sneak up on him and skewer him in the eye. His traditional method. I don't see the WLW killing the Anasurimbor family, he'll be stopped, and this is in my mind, the most likely outcome.

nice!  u got me thinking -- since the WLW is supposed to kill the emperor, the WLW might end up killing Kelmomas who becomes the emperor when his dad and all of his older siblings are killed
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 04, 2015, 07:09:56 pm
I always wondered how the NG "seized" the Sranc when they are soulless?

could be that their soullessness is what makes the seizing possible?  they are like empty vessels and the No-God fills the hole with itself?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 04, 2015, 07:29:22 pm
If NG is an Inchoroi creation, them i'm sure he does.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 05, 2015, 03:12:02 pm
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 05, 2015, 03:30:42 pm
Wilshire - we do see intellect in soulless creations so I understand your reticence to equate soul and intellect. Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important - not just due to the nature of sorcery.

Its very difficult for me to express what I mean here - essentially it is that the soulless creatures that express intelligence are not actually intelligent - they are merely operating on a stimulus response type of internal narrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room similar to this experiment - so the intellect is essentially a non cognitive trick to eschew intellect onto soulless beings.

Probably makes no sense at all to anyone! :P
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 05, 2015, 03:47:00 pm
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?
I was being cheeky. All the Inchoroi weapons seem to have an aptitude for filling holes with themselves.

Wilshire - we do see intellect in soulless creations so I understand your reticence to equate soul and intellect. Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important - not just due to the nature of sorcery.

Its very difficult for me to express what I mean here - essentially it is that the soulless creatures that express intelligence are not actually intelligent - they are merely operating on a stimulus response type of internal narrative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room similar to this experiment - so the intellect is essentially a non cognitive trick to eschew intellect onto soulless beings.

Probably makes no sense at all to anyone! :P
Makes sense. Kind of like how one would call a computer, or software, "intelligent" but this is not the same intelligence one would assign to a human. Taking inputs and spitting out outputs is not the same as consciousness, and consciousness is likely what is meant in this case...

edit:
And after looking at your link, this is basically what I was going for.... So, it does my some kind of vague sense :P. Almost hard to believe I looked at the link after I typed a response.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 08, 2015, 01:07:49 am
The No-God supposedly doesn't have a soul either. What is he filling them with?

i don't remember the NG being soulless part...
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on March 08, 2015, 04:37:20 pm
I'm not sure about the NG itself being soulless either, however I will note that it seems a being doesn't actually need to be soulless in order to be "possessed" or whatever by the No-God -- remember that in one of Akka's "alternate" dreams, Anaxophus is repeating the same words a long with the all the sranc.

If that's the case, than a good question is why isn't Seswatha himself under this same effect? Are sorcerers exempt?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 08, 2015, 08:51:51 pm
I'm not sure about the NG itself being soulless either, however I will note that it seems a being doesn't actually need to be soulless in order to be "possessed" or whatever by the No-God -- remember that in one of Akka's "alternate" dreams, Anaxophus is repeating the same words a long with the all the sranc.

If that's the case, than a good question is why isn't Seswatha himself under this same effect? Are sorcerers exempt?

what if that dream was actually the true version of events?!?  all was lost, and then a lady with the Judging Eye saved eveyone's asses at the last minute!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 09, 2015, 07:33:39 pm
Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important
Or inability to comprehend a paradox is specific to Skin-Spy wetware. How is Mimara going to know the difference? Or Kellhus, for that matter, who has little knowledge of the Tekne?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 10, 2015, 06:24:30 pm
Comprehension of a paradox though is something specific to ensoulled creatures which I think is important
Or inability to comprehend a paradox is specific to Skin-Spy wetware. How is Mimara going to know the difference? Or Kellhus, for that matter, who has little knowledge of the Tekne?
Good point. Not like there are a bunch of soul's with intellects running around to test on. Whatever is available I'm sure Kellhus has studied them carefully.

The Mandati skin-spy allegedly could do magic, which to me says that he could hold a paradox as this seems to be the most paradoxical thing one can do. That one wasn't killed by Maithanet, just paralyzed, so tests could have been done. Whether or not Kellhus would have revealed the particulars of that study is another issue altogether.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 10, 2015, 07:07:55 pm
That is a huge issue that we often gloss over.

How the hell did Maithanet know about the Mandate Skin-Spy? Presumably the knowledge came from Moenghus, but that's just dropping the question a step further. How did Moenghus know? The interrogated Skin-Spies? I doubt they know much about where the others of their kind are, or the Consult isn't running any kind of decent spy-network at all.

EDIT: I think the only sorcery that explicitly  runs on paradox and contradiction is the Aporesis. The Gnosis is half math half philosophy. Paradox isn't necessarily inherent to that.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 10, 2015, 10:02:15 pm
Something about saying one thing and thinking something different seems paradoxical to me... its not a direct line but I think its close enough.

Its possible that Maithanet was trained to see the skin-spies so he just happened to notice it when he was there (or saw him some years before and waited until that moment to expose him).
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 11, 2015, 01:22:46 am
Something about saying one thing and thinking something different seems paradoxical to me... its not a direct line but I think its close enough.
That's not paradox, that's just multi-tasking.

Wouldn't be surprised if an aporetic cant wasn't comprised of an utteral statement and in inutteral negation which combined makes kind of a paradox, in a way, though.

Its possible that Maithanet was trained to see the skin-spies so he just happened to notice it when he was their (or saw him some years before and waited until that moment to expose him).
I hadn't considered that he didn't actually know it was there. It's possible he was just winging it. But then, without exposing the spy...how was he going to get the Mandate on his side? It's very neat with the spy there, and messy and difficult without.

Fucking Dunyain.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2015, 01:33:57 pm
Something about altering 'objective' reality with your subjective thoughts makes me feel like there is a paradox inherent in all magic that is likely expressed in some way through the utterals and innuterals.


It does seem unlikely that he didn't know that the skin-spy was there. Moenghus' goal was to 'unite' the three seas under one religion, this I am at least pretty sure of. What, then, was the goal of bringing the Mandate? I don't remember the timeline of events exactly, how long was it from the end of the way to when Maithanet and the Mandate showed up in Shimeh? If it was soon enough that Maithanet had already picked up the Mandate before the final outcome was determined, than its likely he didn't know Kellhus had won, which means bringing the Mandate was always a part of Moe's plan... It almost doesn't matter I guess. Either way, the Mandate's knowledge of the Consult would have been needed, and keeping them close at hand so their magics didn't get in the way would have been a must.

Still not really sure where I am going... So, regardless of who won, Fanim or Inrithi, the Consult would have been exposed, the Mandate brought to the side of the victor and raised up out of their centuries of irrelevance. Both Moe and Kell were/are Anasurimbor, and liekly would have went to Shimeh to meet the fellow. So even if the Mandate thought that Kell had won and showed up to find out another Anasurimbor was the victor, they wouldn't have been terribly upset.

Is it then reasonable to assume that the skin-spy  might have just been an opportune coincidence? Maybe, it at least doesn't seem like a huge stretch. The whole point of revealing it was to do what?
Bend the knee of the Mandate to Maithanet and by extension the new Emperor? They would have done so either way.
Convince them to come to Shimeh? Again, they probably would have done that anyway.
Expose the Consullt? Already done by Kellhus.
Show them of their own fallibility? Probably, but to what end? They could have been convinced later of the awesome power of the new Emperor.

I can't really think of a reason for revealing the skin-spy at that moment. It just doesn't seem particularly relevant to me.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 11, 2015, 06:22:03 pm
It's a really easy way to get their attention AND respect.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2015, 07:49:15 pm
But that leaves open the possibility that it was a coincidence, which I dislike.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 11, 2015, 10:33:22 pm
Coincidences can happen. Too few coincidences make a plot rotten as easily as too many.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on March 12, 2015, 04:16:19 am
In general I think it's important to remember that, so far as we know, up until Moenghus left Ishual, the Consult probably thought their skinspies were rock solid. Why not? It seems like the Dunyain's ability to identify a skinspy is more a side-effect of their training to read human faces, rather than needing any practice at doing it. Kellhus noticed it instantly, though of course he didn't know the cause.

Another thing to note is that we don't actually know how long the Consult has had them, but only that their numbers are dwindling. Could earlier historical figures actually have been skinspies? Perhaps Anaxophus, which is why he mimicked the No-God's voice along with the Sranc? Who knows. Regardless, I think the remaining skinspies are very strategically placed in a way that makes them valuable, but unlikely to be killed and/or revealed. It's why they don't make skinspy out of say, Xerius or Conphas, but do so with Istriya. And, of course, why wouldn't the Consult put their (perhaps only) ensouled-spy within the Mandate? The Mandate is only bullshit to the ignorant masses --  to the Consult, they're the only enemy they have that's actually aware of them (aside from perhaps the Nonmen).
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 01:14:24 pm
Yeah but the issue isn't why the Consult placed one there, or for how long it was there, its whether or not Maithanet/Moenghus knew about it before Maithanet showed up on their island.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 12, 2015, 01:49:07 pm
Another thing to note is that we don't actually know how long the Consult has had them, but only that their numbers are dwindling.
As far as I remember, Mandate's recent reputation as mad weepies & myth-chasers was caused by a sudden lack of clear, constant & known enemy. Both in their own & in great names eyes it was like Consult just ceased to be. Grumpy-happy end, no second apocalypse for anyone, go home gnostics, you're drunkards. That's a possible time point when mangaeccans deployed skin-spies, thus consealing Consult's activities to a non-detectable level.

If that guess is correct, skin-spies as we know them is a technology with 2-3 hundred year history at best. But, of course, there could have been ancient prototypes and/or neighborhood concepts.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:32:43 pm
That was my interpretation as well Simas Polchias. The two scenarios, creation of skin-spies and Mandate falling from grace, seem like they should be connected.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 12, 2015, 10:14:44 pm
Yeah the Mandate actually skirmished with the Consult as recently as 300 years ago. The Skin-Spies are new. Which is what's so terrifying about them. They're a very elegant and novel creation, implying the Consult has finally attained fundamental mastery of the Tekne again.

And Anaxophus didn't repeat the No-God's words at Mengedda. That was an artifact of Akka's dreams changing (He even repeatedly says at that point "This isn't how it happens!"). Anaxophus KILLED the No-God. Why would a Skin-Spy do that?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 15, 2015, 10:49:43 pm
Why would a Skin-Spy do that?
Don't mind me, I`ve catched a cold and am just making chibi-crackpots in the corner.

The nice part of sorcery is a trait that can be called an elegant durability.
But that's not true about Tekne, whose creations are in fact badass cripples.
Post-cunuroi loose their memories, Aurang body suffers from a cancer etc.
So, it's just fine to imagine a broken Skin-Spy gone rogue.

Let's say someday Maëngi, a thing called Sarcellus, becomes too good in impersonating.
It's model of a certain shrial knight is so perfect it "reigns" upon a basic skin-spy urges.
It births a self-concience, it forms a soul, it suffers from D.T.C.M. (skin-spy wrath & lust).
It will do everything a shrial knight would do, from conquering Shimeh to hunting Shaeonanra.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 15, 2015, 11:32:18 pm
@ FB - i love the idea of skin spies way back when!  since this is a crazy ass speculation thread: warring factions in the Consult have been employing skin spies for thousands of years often running at cross purposes!  Moenghus/Kellhus have only uncovered the most inferior type of skin spy, the really subtle ones are absolutely undetectable to gods and men and nonmen and they live in the mountains and they run a breeding program of humans and they are called pragma

while we're at it, double down on the skin-spy-- metaskinspies: these guys have skin spy faces that conceal an even deeper face .... which is a bunny

also, aurang/aurax - their mouth faces are skin spy faces too
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 16, 2015, 02:48:30 am
Cnaiur's left testicle was a skin-spy, and it outlived its host.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 16, 2015, 01:04:15 pm
Did Anaxophus actually kill the No-God though?

TS - you seem to be coming from the perspective that Akkas original dreams are true and the latter dreams are a lie. What if the reverse is true? What if Achamian is now dreaming real dreams?

I recall a scene where Mimara calls Achamian a prophet of the past? What if this was true in the strictest sense - Akka really is the one showing the true dreams? I also think this most likely to be the case, the reason being the mundane aspects of Seswathas life which are revealing themselves.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 16, 2015, 01:49:10 pm
metaskinspies: these guys have skin spy faces that conceal an even deeper face .... which is a bunny
Aww & lol.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: H on March 16, 2015, 02:20:15 pm
TS - you seem to be coming from the perspective that Akkas original dreams are true and the latter dreams are a lie. What if the reverse is true? What if Achamian is now dreaming real dreams?

I'm inclined to believe that the dreams are becoming more truthful in general, not less.  However, I think there is more at play though, that somehow something is changing things too.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 16, 2015, 07:42:49 pm
Lets say kellhus is trying to save the world and that he knows his death is inevitable. Maybe he's trying to live just a certain kind of life so that his heart can be used in a new grasping ritual. Maybe he can totally outdo seswatha--the initiates need only have the gift of the few and grasp and they instantly become a mini-kellhus with metagnosis already loaded. This could help if kellhus thinks its going to take centuries more to finally defeat the Consult
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2015, 04:39:05 pm
Why would a Skin-Spy do that?
Let's say someday Maëngi, a thing called Sarcellus, becomes too good in impersonating.
It's model of a certain shrial knight is so perfect it "reigns" upon a basic skin-spy urges.
It births a self-concience, it forms a soul, it suffers from D.T.C.M. (skin-spy wrath & lust).
It will do everything a shrial knight would do, from conquering Shimeh to hunting Shaeonanra.
Have you read Dune? A perfect Face Dancer...


Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 10:37:46 am
TS - you seem to be coming from the perspective that Akkas original dreams are true and the latter dreams are a lie. What if the reverse is true? What if Achamian is now dreaming real dreams?
I wouldn't go that far on either point but I do think that if Anaxophus had failed to kill the No-God, and the No-God then murdered Anaxophus and Seswatha like what happens in that one particular version of the dream, triggering an inevitable defeat at Mengedda...someone probably would have noticed.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 18, 2015, 11:21:19 am
I don't think Anoxophus killed the No-God. I always expected the No God had its own aims and goals.

I feel like the Consult just switched it on and it started going wherever it liked - Consult is like - "erm... sit... rollover.... ok ok just go and hoover souls and do what you want".
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 11:34:15 am
So it's somewhere on vacation in Kutnarmu for the last two thousand years and just doesn't want to be bothered.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on March 18, 2015, 04:06:07 pm
I never said the No God wasn't killed - just that I doubt that Anaxophus actually killed it. I mean wouldn't the death of the No God be a pretty important part of Seswatha dreams?

Not necessarily saying the NG is kicking back chilling on vacation but equally I find it unlikely the story told of the NG's "death" holds any truth. I would be less surprised if Seswatha somehow stopped/redirected the NG.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 19, 2015, 08:20:44 pm
The only version of the dream where the No-God isn't killed has the implication of the No-God's triumph at Mengedda and the death of Seswatha and Anaxophus. Which seems historically implausible.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 24, 2015, 02:18:37 am
From the end of chapter 7 of TDTCB, Xerius new obelisk is coming down the river and his mom says "like an immense sarcophagus"

...

THE NO-GOD'S CARAPACE IS ALREADY IN MOMEMN!!!   JUST WHEN THE GREAT ORDEAL IS SWALLOWED UP INTO THE ARK, MOG WILL RETURN
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 24, 2015, 02:35:14 am
More crazy-ass speculation: heron spear was lost when Scylvendi sacked that one city...Scylvendi took spear back, it was the Utemot tribe, Heron Spear passed down from father to son, Cnaiur's dad is killed before he can explain the secret importance of the object to Cnaiur, Cnaiur's dad is buried with Heron Spear, Cnaiur finds Kellhus sitting on the barrow of Cnaiur's father--resting place of the Heron Spear

BWAHAHAHAHA
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: locke on March 24, 2015, 03:53:46 am
Did Anaxophus actually kill the No-God though?

TS - you seem to be coming from the perspective that Akkas original dreams are true and the latter dreams are a lie. What if the reverse is true? What if Achamian is now dreaming real dreams?

I recall a scene where Mimara calls Achamian a prophet of the past? What if this was true in the strictest sense - Akka really is the one showing the true dreams? I also think this most likely to be the case, the reason being the mundane aspects of Seswathas life which are revealing themselves.
That's a bingo.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Sharmat on March 24, 2015, 12:14:06 pm
More crazy-ass speculation: heron spear was lost when Scylvendi sacked that one city...Scylvendi took spear back, it was the Utemot tribe, Heron Spear passed down from father to son, Cnaiur's dad is killed before he can explain the secret importance of the object to Cnaiur, Cnaiur's dad is buried with Heron Spear, Cnaiur finds Kellhus sitting on the barrow of Cnaiur's father--resting place of the Heron Spear

BWAHAHAHAHA

That would be hilarious.

That's a bingo.
I think both the old and the new dreams have truth and falsehood in them and there's not a clean cut off.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: locke on March 25, 2015, 02:42:46 am
New favorite theory from the other board:

Moenghus wanted a Broken Dunyain, because a broken dunyain would be immunized against the inverse fire, and he knew he could not immunize himself against it.  Hence the circumfix.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on March 25, 2015, 04:31:32 am
New favorite theory from the other board:

Moenghus wanted a Broken Dunyain, because a broken dunyain would be immunized against the inverse fire, and he knew he could not immunize himself against it.  Hence the circumfix.

that's awesome!  i wonder how he knows that the IF is a trap and that he would be destined to look into it if he had tried to unite the 3 seas?  i see it narratively, the audience demands that some hero of the Great Ordeal must enter the Ark and SEE, but i wonder how Moenghus reasoned.  also, i wonder what it is like for Moe - who, purportedly, can see the Outside - how simple sight of the Outside is different from looking into the IF.  obviously the IF is some kind of compulsion mechanism, but i wonder if there is more to it than that.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on March 26, 2015, 12:40:51 am
Daimotic sorcerers can already more-or-less "see" the Outside without becoming crazy (or sane?) enough to join the Consult and commit the kind of atrocities Shae describes.

It's one of two things in my opinion:

1. The IF is not actually a compulsion device per se, it just happens to have that effect if you want it to. When you look into the IF, you see (and perhaps more importantly, feel) the reality of your own Damnation, and just how ridiculously shitty that is/will be. So if, after experiencing that, the first thing you're accosted by are a group of powerful and dedicated folks whose entire goal is making Damnation not happen, you may be inclined to join up with their cause. It's like taking a dude out to the desert and waiting until he's dying of thirst, then offering him some water. He might still not like you, but he's probably gonna drink the water.

The issue with this is that it only works as a method of compulsion if there seems to be no better alternative. That's key, and I think it's the reason we haven't heard of someone who has seen the IF but didn't join the Consult (I suspect this will end up being Seswatha, but that's another theory, another post).

2. The other option is that it's simply a magical compulsion device meant to force anyone who looks at it to join the Consult. I think this is actually clunkier, since the IF being legitimate explains a lot about the Inchoroi (why are they so driven? how did they know about Damnation in the first place without actually dying?) while still being able to ACT as a compulsion device when used correctly. If the IF really is bullshit, then all that goes out the window.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on March 26, 2015, 01:32:57 am
If the IF shows you you're own personal hell, that is a substantially different experience than seeing into "the outside". Must less compelling.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Francis Buck on March 26, 2015, 03:00:13 am
I did not explain myself properly.

The IF does not necessarily show you "your own personal hell", it simply allows you to experience what death is like if you are Damned. To me the threat of Damnation needs to be extreme, otherwise a lot of the character's motivations and actions are strange and/or nonsensical. The Inverse Fire is literally just a way for a soul to see its "status" in the cosmosphere.

I believe this is also why the Inchoroi have only let Nonmen and/or Sorcerers view the Inverse Fire -- since they're SURE to be Damned. This was the folly of the Inchoroi -- they landed on Earwa believing Nonmen to be the dominant mortal, but in fact men were. This is why the Inchoroi "manipulated" the writing on the Tusk to include Nonmen as Damned -- not because they were trying to destroy them, but because it was actually true. This is where the alliance between Nonmen and Inchoroi truly began. Although all (or most) Nonmen were Damned due to their inferior noospheric value, with Men the situation was far more complex. There's a reason all the humans in the Consult were already sorcerors, as their Damnation was guaranteed.

The whole "intentional compulsion" aspect is ruined, however, if someone happens to look into the IF and see that they're "saved". It discredits the Inchoroi/Consult, and offers an alternative path, of sorts. The quality of that fate (eternal oblivion vs hopefully-eternal paradise) is debatable, of course.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Darzin on March 26, 2015, 06:16:49 am
Hmm I wonder what would happen if a Cishaurim looked in it using their snakes?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 31, 2015, 09:14:25 pm
Have you read Dune?
No. Herbert & Pratchett are in my "emergency ration" of literature, which should be spend thriftily.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on April 03, 2015, 05:53:42 pm
Have you read Dune?
No. Herbert & Pratchett are in my "emergency ration" of literature, which should be spend thriftily.
lol please explain to me how that works
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Simas Polchias on April 04, 2015, 10:02:41 pm
lol please explain to me how that works
Much like postponing something nice or tasty! In a world of credit systems and easily accessible (thus short-lived) pleasures one should know how to craft himself a true reward, even if it made of silly deprivation.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2015, 12:38:14 pm
Oh ok, that kind of makes sense. I was thinking you had it packed away in a  "doomsday bag". Food, cloths, and Herbert to get you through the next apocalypse. Your explanation seems far more reasonable :P
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Coldbow on April 27, 2015, 02:25:09 pm
If we understand the Dunyain goal of a truly self moving soul, I feel like the final barriers to this goal would be Time and as a consequence, Death.  Kellhus has already demonstrated the ability to bend space with the gnosis, so the bending of time isn't outside of the bounds of possibility.

Let's assume the Incu-Holoinas, the Inchoroi Arc, is a time-travel device as Simas Polshias guessed on the first page of this thread.  And instead of a foreign enemy, we think of the No-God as a decendant of Kellhus.  A Dunyain who has literally come before himself.

It would follow that the Inchoroi and Consult are the evolution of the Dunyain domination of men.  Two of the strongest levers that Kellhus uses against man are belief and sexual desire.  Think about his rise to a deity in the holy war and ALWAYS keeping beautiful woman at his side (Serwe/Esmi) to appeal to man's base insticts.  He exercises domination of soul and flesh.

The Inchoroi and Consult are just an extension of this to the extreme.  The Inchoroi are driven by their zeal to reduce the number of souls in the world for their salvation.  And the Skin Spies  bent only towards sexual gratification.  Each of these are the levers of man, magnified.

Add to this the Inchoroi ability to induce immortality in Non-Men and we can assume the No-God has achieved immortality as well.  So after conquering time and death, why come back in time to march against the world?

We see the reason in the White Luck Warrior; The Gods are a threat to the Dunyain.  The assumption here is that the No-God cannot over-come them in his timeline and has traveled to the past to clear the Gods out of the path of the Dunyain.  I could speculate further on this, but let's continue.

So how do you reach the Gods?

In this, I think, No-God is aptly named.  Logic and reason destroys passion and belief.  In an attempt to draw out the Gods, the No-God murders millions in the first apocalypse.  As far as we know, the God's did not intervene.  Either they were intimidated or simply did not care enough about the loss.  The No-God had to re-asses.  If outright destruction did not move the Gods to act, he had to work in a way that did.

If we accept the idea that the No-God is an advanced Dunyain then we assume that everything that has happened since the first apocalypse is according to plan.  The Inchoroi breaking the will of the Non-Men, paving the way for man and thus Dunyain to come to the fore.  The first apocalypse culling all knowledge of the powerful logic-based gnosis down to one school who cannot share it due to the will of Seswatha's soul.  The monks sent to Ishual (dangerously close to Golgotterath) to set up a school for the Dunyain to train untouched for thousands of years.  Sranc finally attacking Ishual, releasing the Dunyain into the world.  The memories of Seswatha that communicate the idea of a threat from Golgotterath.  Kellhus' patricide when his father was not strong enough to unite the world.  With each lever, the No-God sets Kellhus up to gather the world's power like a lode stone.  Why?

To attract the ire of the God's.  We know in WLW, Kellhus is the target of Yatwer.  If Kellhus knows this (or will learn this), the No-God knows this and will use it to reach the Gods.  In fact, the No-God set up the same exact circumstance in the first apolcalypse with Anasurimbor Celmomas II.  An Anasurimbor leading the world in the Great Ordeal against Golgotterath.  Just like Kellhus.  For some reason the God's did not intervene as they do with Kellhus.  Apparently there can be no substitute.  He must use a Dunyain to lure out the Gods.

By feigning defeat by the Heron Spear of his own making and unleashing the true Dunyain, the No-God starts on a course to reign in Gods using Kellhus.  He must work through his past to secure his future.  He must dominate what comes before.

Additionally, if the No-God set in motion the Dunyain, did he not author his own beginning?  By setting up a dependent time-loop, the No-God is the only self moving soul.  Is this why Kellhus says the he is more than Dunyain?  Why else would the No-God reach out to Kellhus?

If you made it this far, what do you think?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Wilshire on April 27, 2015, 03:44:06 pm
Welcome to TSA, Coldbow. Great first post. Probably should have been its own thread ;)

Seems pretty self consistent, though I dislike 'the no-god' being the one who orchestrates everything. It didn't seem like a thing of intellect.

I'd be more on board if Aurax was the Dunyain line, and Aurang just his pawn. A ruling caste of Inchoroi that knew the plan, while all the others are ignorant and fed false information, as some believe was done with Kellhus.

Or if those in-the-know ended up dying through a simple mistake, some arrogance on their part upon 'landing' on Earwa, and the brothers dont even know the goal they are working towards anymore.

Regardless, this is a great theory, imo. The Inchoroi being some future dunyain's plan that leads to their own creation, being their own proceeding darkness, thus conquering it. Even without the gods it would seem they'd need to come back in time to set that up. The Gods not responding in full to the first apocalypse just adds fuel to the fire. No-God seems like more of a tool than anything else, why did you pick it specifically and not some other force?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: H on April 27, 2015, 03:45:35 pm
If you made it this far, what do you think?

Interesting, but I can't buy it.  I still regard the No-God as a creation, so the idea that it's a self-moving soul does not fit.  I do believe he was made from some special type of soul, but that perhaps that is the "up-side down soul."
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Coldbow on April 28, 2015, 05:40:58 am
That's a great point.  It could be Aurax/Aurang that is the Dunyain.  I would almost like that better, in a way.  As if, unable to destroy them, they roped their (No) God to their own purpose.  We may see Kellhus do that as well.

The only issue I see, then, is why the first apocalypse?  If the Gods will be roped by Kellhus, no need to draw them out.  If their goal is to reduce the souls to 144,000, how does that fit?  Is that the limit of sure control of the Dunyain?  12 x 12,000 disciples?  One Dunyain per world?  Possibly.  Kellhus already commands more than that, though.

Also, why would the No-God/Aurax initiate the Ishual prerogative before the control of the world is complete?  There had to be a reason to initiate Ishual.  The culling of the world's souls couldn't be the reason?...Could it?  Maybe this is the way they prevent the disaster of the first apocalypse, by setting in motion their destiny, knowing that Kellhus would bring them the world.  Hence the No-God reaching out to Kellhus on the circumfix.  Maybe.

But why the desperate questioning of "Who are the Dunyain?"  Those glimpses bother me more than anything else.  Unless only the No-God is aware of the Dunyain.  The Consult acting antagonist to set up the Kellhus/Celmomas circumstance I can understand, but the questioning by the Inchoroi in the north doesn't fit the narrative very well.

That was why I assumed it was the No-God that was Dunyain.  The Inchoroi are ignorant tools, the extensions of their belief, bound to destroy as many souls as possible as long as it serves the No-God's end.  Don't read into what their beliefs are, only what goal their beliefs achieve.  Think Shimeh vs. Moenghus.

I also compared Kellhus' trackless soul to the white-luck warriors one-track soul and assumed the Gods are the antithisis to the Dunyain.  Celmomas fit the historical framework for bringing the Gods to field but that failed.  Then it was an attempt at attrition across the world.  When that failed, there was no other choice but to actually use a Dunyain, Kellhus.  Hence the initiation of Ishual directly after the first apocalypse.

H-What if Mimara finds no mark on Kellhus' soul?  What if the marking of one's soul requires belief, and a lack of belief means a lack of a soul?  That is something the God's can't abide and why the Celmomas' circumstance failed to draw the gods the first time.  An upside down soul, crafted himself....
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: H on April 28, 2015, 11:40:59 am
That's a great point.  It could be Aurax/Aurang that is the Dunyain.  I would almost like that better, in a way.  As if, unable to destroy them, they roped their (No) God to their own purpose.  We may see Kellhus do that as well.

The only issue I see, then, is why the first apocalypse?  If the Gods will be roped by Kellhus, no need to draw them out.  If their goal is to reduce the souls to 144,000, how does that fit?  Is that the limit of sure control of the Dunyain?  12 x 12,000 disciples?  One Dunyain per world?  Possibly.  Kellhus already commands more than that, though.

Well, the number 144,000 is essentially arbitrary, in the sense that that is just the number.  Why do they get the results they want at that (really any) number?  I think it is connected to how the Inside informs the Outside.  I think that at that "low" level of souls, judgement isn't collected enough to effect a soul's journey through the Outside.  Alternatively, perhaps they have something that can effect the Outside, yet can only exert a certain amount of influence.  144,000 souls worth of "force" would then be the amount this thing can "exert."

Also, why would the No-God/Aurax initiate the Ishual prerogative before the control of the world is complete?  There had to be a reason to initiate Ishual.  The culling of the world's souls couldn't be the reason?...Could it?  Maybe this is the way they prevent the disaster of the first apocalypse, by setting in motion their destiny, knowing that Kellhus would bring them the world.  Hence the No-God reaching out to Kellhus on the circumfix.  Maybe.

Well, I'm still not sold on the No-God actually having agency.  I've said since they earliest days that it is my feeling that the No-God is not some "master-mind" or even any sort of actual leader.  I believe that the No-God is just another thing of the Tekné, just like Sranc or Bashrag.  If that really was the No-God speaking to Kellhus, I think it's because like a pool of water, constantly seeking a way to "reach out" since it is trapped Outside.  I think in the moments where Kellhus heard the No-God, it was because his soul was open.  Like (I think it was) Akka had said, each soul is like a pin-prick though to the Outside.  I think in those moments his soul yawned and so was open to influence.  Or perhaps not.

But why the desperate questioning of "Who are the Dunyain?"  Those glimpses bother me more than anything else.  Unless only the No-God is aware of the Dunyain.  The Consult acting antagonist to set up the Kellhus/Celmomas circumstance I can understand, but the questioning by the Inchoroi in the north doesn't fit the narrative very well.

That was why I assumed it was the No-God that was Dunyain.  The Inchoroi are ignorant tools, the extensions of their belief, bound to destroy as many souls as possible as long as it serves the No-God's end.  Don't read into what their beliefs are, only what goal their beliefs achieve.  Think Shimeh vs. Moenghus.

I still can't buy that the Dûnyain were somehow made by the Consult.  I think that the opposite is more probable, that Seswatha created the order.  How would they have known of them?  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your contention, but it seems perfectly plausible that they would be ignorant to the Dûnyain.

H-What if Mimara finds no mark on Kellhus' soul?  What if the marking of one's soul requires belief, and a lack of belief means a lack of a soul?  That is something the God's can't abide and why the Celmomas' circumstance failed to draw the gods the first time.  An upside down soul, crafted himself....

That I am not sure on.  I don't think that Kellhus lacks a soul.  I think perhaps Kellhus' soul is special somehow, perhaps upside-down as well, or perhaps something else.

I'm not trying to shoot you down mind  you, I'm just throwing my own ideas out there too.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Coldbow on April 29, 2015, 02:33:00 am
All good points.  I was making arguments reinforcing the idea that it had to be the No God that was a Dunyain due to the fact of the Inchoroi not knowing of them.  And their not knowing serving no additional purpose.  The Consult could have been working blindly under the Dunyain No God to corral Kellhus to Golgotterath to initiate the circumstances leading to the intervention of the Gods.  Since in this exercise we assume the No God is from the future, he knows the conditions that bring about the God's involvement, tries to recreate that in the past with Celmomas but fails, presumably because Cel is not Dunyain and has a soul.  The No-God tries a killing spree, that fails to bring the God's too.  And so initiates Ishual.  Kellhus having no soul to redeem AND leading the world would infuriate the Gods, I would think.

I'm definitely not trying to convince anyone that this IS the case.  It was just a speculation exercise to see if I could carry it all the way through and I'm satisfied enough with the answer to move on.

It would feel too shallow if everything that happened was made irrelevant in the end by a much bigger story-arc hiding behind a curtain.  And only so you could say the Dunyain created themselves.  Feels like a lot of work for a one-liner.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on May 02, 2015, 07:06:11 am
Does anyone have their TAE books on them that could map out the amount of time that passes through both of those novels?  I was bored, and only own physical copies of PON.

TDTCB ~18 months from  Late Autumn 4109 - Late Spring 4111
TWP     ~9 months from Late Spring 4111 - Late Winter 4112
TTT      ~2 months from Late Winter 4112 - Spring 4112

TJE  ?
WLW ?
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on May 02, 2015, 11:10:05 pm
the method of creating the no-god is tricking yatwer into taking a corporeal form and then trapping her in the carapace
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MSJ on May 04, 2015, 02:34:06 am
The Judging Eye~Autumn 19 New Imperial year (4131 Year-of-the-Tusk) to Spring 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk)

The White-Luck Warrior~Spring 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk) to Late Summer 20 New Imperial year (4132 Year-of-the-Tusk)

So, only about year......
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Bolivar on May 04, 2015, 03:09:58 am
I love the theory, Coldbow, some parts of it remind me a little of Hyperion. The time travel, I'm not so sure about, that stuff is so tricky I kind of don't want Bakker to go there. At the same time, I could totally see that within Kellhus' abilities.

I definitely ascribe to the Consult and the Dunayin being connected - both begin with the axiom that life is mechanical. My personal crackpot is that the Inchoroi needed a way to rediscover the lost principles of the Tekne, the scientific study of cause and effect. They couldn't do it on Earwa, given how magic is real and belief dominates every culture. The only way to do it was to seal off a group of people, convince them magic isn't real, religion is only a tool of control, and compel them to master cause and effect for thousands of years. I'm starting to think the No-God's constant questions suggest that it was a failed prototype and the Dunyain program aims to produce a soul who can fully control the carapace. This crosses over to the Westeros thread but I wonder if this is why during Celmomas and Seswatha's Benjuka game, when he talks about building Ishual, he makes a move that seemed like an opportunity but turned into travesty - he was building a refuge but it became the mechanism for the Consult's ultimate victory. The only inconsistency with all this is that Moenghus' statements at the end of TTT suggests the Dunyain are a kind of religious order instead of a purely scientific one. Their goal is a spiritual one, to unlock/achieve the free will and meaning that most people take as a given.

I'm still not sure what to make of the gods' intercession in the Aspect Emperor trilogy. I'm inclined to think Kellhus engineered the opportunity for Yatwer to manifest in the way she has. Their absence from the first trilogy makes me think that the Inrithi gods never existed in the way their followers think but something Kellhus has done behind the scenes has caused all this stuff to happen in the second trilogy. Not sure if some of this is repetitive and I've already laid some of this out before...
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on May 05, 2015, 02:09:41 am
Achamian is possessed by Gin'yursis who is making his way back to Golgotterath for revenge on the Consult.  Mog and co attacked Cil-Aujus because they knew that Gin'yursis (ex-consult super agent) was the only one who could stand up to the Consult's forces (which he did).  Gin'yursis wasn't so much overcome by treachery as by fatigue.  Now he will overwhelm the Consult in his form as the Seal of Hell when Mimara opens the 'gate.'

By stopping Mog and wiping out the Consult, Gin'yursis hopes to purify his soul and ascend to the heavens.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 06, 2015, 08:19:21 pm
when Horseking and co reach the nonman mansion, we will get revelations about the Consult from a nonman who was the jailer for the 2 inchoroi who were in fact Aurang/Aurax.  this nonman will reveal that AA have no love for their king Sil and his followers (maybe they seek to dominate like nonmen do).  AA help Cujara and Co defeat the inchoroi in exchange for their freedom

OR

Serwa isn't even taking her threesome to the mansion, she's taking them to Ishual!  Madness/Wilshire mislead us all!  maybe they arrive just before or after Akka.  maybe Ishual is freshly ruined because Serwa just destroyed it!!!  and then Serwa, Horse, Horsedong, Mim, and Akka all go to the nonman mansion.

Akka falls in love with Serwa because she looks like Esmi too
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: geoffrobro on October 07, 2015, 12:33:19 am
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!   
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 07, 2015, 05:44:45 am
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!   

i'm totally buying meta-cants of compulsion on a grand scale!  :)  maybe this is the way Kellhus conducts The Concert of Six Schools!!!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MSJ on October 07, 2015, 01:36:38 pm
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!

So are you saying he's using the mega-Cants of Compulsion to read minds through his "Inverse Fire"? I just thought that was a touch of scrying. Keeping an eye on the Ordeal and such.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 07, 2015, 05:47:29 pm
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!

So are you saying he's using the mega-Cants of Compulsion to read minds through his "Inverse Fire"? I just thought that was a touch of scrying. Keeping an eye on the Ordeal and such.

maybe Kellhus set up the Seeing-Flame Network so that it would be in place when the GO is camped outside of Golgotterath.  then Kellhus will sneak inside the Ark and broadcast an image of the IF via Fire Optics and enslave the GO to the Consult's purpose

this could be like a bargaining chip.  Kellhus shows up with GO, kicks ass, secretly meets with Consult, they concede to show him the Tekne after which Kellhus will bind the GO to the Consult's purpose and cease hostilities
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: geoffrobro on October 07, 2015, 06:49:46 pm
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!

So are you saying he's using the mega-Cants of Compulsion to read minds through his "Inverse Fire"? I just thought that was a touch of scrying. Keeping an eye on the Ordeal and such.

Read minds? No warp minds. Remember Xinnemas (Proyas' marshal) a normal can't of compulsion changed him down to his soul. A Meta version would be something to rival that of the IF. Maybe instead of the cant making you doing something, "you" whole heartily believe what you've been told. A endless drive to do something without the fear of damnation or even knowing you been hexed.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on October 07, 2015, 07:07:15 pm
Came across something last month on my reread of WLW.  It's in the first chapter(or maybe the third, can't exactly recall), super early in the slog plotline.  Mimara is having dreams of Cil-Aujas, but Gin'yursis is replaced with Kellhus in her memories.  She's pondering the Wight-in-the-Mountain's existence as both frame and figure of the onta, except it's Kellhus in this episode.  Got me pondering if Kellhus's self-sacrifice in the future  may be purposefully getting himself killed in Golgotterath—the topoiest of topoi.  His soul can become like the Wight-in-the-Mountain and more adept at altering physical reality to his design, or this will be the mechanism of his apotheosis.  Or some sort of thing.

I'm positive others have voiced this exact sentiment and the exact same conditions, but the passage just really stuck out to me.  Will try and find it.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MSJ on October 07, 2015, 10:48:49 pm
My new theory is based around the fact that Kellhus has made a Inverse Fire, he shows it to Proyas. When he looks into it he see's everyone of the Ordeal staring into their own campfires. I thought to myself "oh that kool" and kept moving on but now thinking kellhus could read the faces and thoughts of everyone.
We all been just stared at fire, these men are staring kellhus unknowingly in the face. He put people into trances before but im wondering what the Meta-Cants of Compulsion would be like when done on a mass scale.
He may have the ability to just take mens wills away from them like The NO-God does with the Scranc...
Hes the NO-NO-God!

So are you saying he's using the mega-Cants of Compulsion to read minds through his "Inverse Fire"? I just thought that was a touch of scrying. Keeping an eye on the Ordeal and such.

Read minds? No warp minds. Remember Xinnemas (Proyas' marshal) a normal can't of compulsion changed him down to his soul. A Meta version would be something to rival that of the IF. Maybe instead of the cant making you doing something, "you" whole heartily believe what you've been told. A endless drive to do something without the fear of damnation or even knowing you been hexed.


Aaaah, I see where you're going now. Yes, it seems exactly like something Kellhus would do. Also, maybe the Whelming plays some part in this too.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: The Spaces Between on October 08, 2015, 12:07:55 am
Quote
She dreams of her stepfather, wakes with the frowning confusion that always accompanies dreams too sticky with significance. With every blink she sees him: the Aspect-Emperor, not as he is but as he would be were he the shade that haunted the accursed deeps of Cil-Aujas...
Not a man but an emblem. A living Seal, rising on tides of hellish unreality.
"You are the eye that offends, Mimara..."
She wants to ask Achamian about the dream but finds the memory of their feud too sharp to speak around. She knows what everybody knows about dreams, that they are as likely to deceive as to illuminate. On the Andiamine Heights, the caste-noble wives would consult augurs, pay outrageous sums. The caste-menials and the slaves would pray, usually to Yatwer. The girls in the brothel used to drip wax on pillow-beetles to determine the truth of their dreams. If the wax trapped the insect, the dream was true. She has heard of dozens of other folk divinations besides. But she no longer knows what to believe...
It's the Wizard, she realizes. The damned fool is rubbing off on her.
"The eye that must be plucked."
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 08, 2015, 01:35:39 pm

Quote
She dreams of her stepfather, wakes with the frowning confusion that always accompanies dreams too sticky with significance. With every blink she sees him: the Aspect-Emperor, not as he is but as he would be were he the shade that haunted the accursed deeps of Cil-Aujas...
Not a man but an emblem. A living Seal, rising on tides of hellish unreality.
"You are the eye that offends, Mimara..."
She wants to ask Achamian about the dream but finds the memory of their feud too sharp to speak around. She knows what everybody knows about dreams, that they are as likely to deceive as to illuminate. On the Andiamine Heights, the caste-noble wives would consult augurs, pay outrageous sums. The caste-menials and the slaves would pray, usually to Yatwer. The girls in the brothel used to drip wax on pillow-beetles to determine the truth of their dreams. If the wax trapped the insect, the dream was true. She has heard of dozens of other folk divinations besides. But she no longer knows what to believe...
It's the Wizard, she realizes. The damned fool is rubbing off on her.
"The eye that must be plucked."

:) beetle divination sounds like another anasurimbor!
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: SilentRoamer on October 08, 2015, 02:34:05 pm
Just a small distinction Geoffrobro - if you remember Esmenet confesses to Kellhus the reasons she was so shook up after being possessed was not because of the possession itself but from the fact that the thoughts were her own.

They were placed there by another soul but still a fundamental part of Esmi.

Remember in Earwa the seat of the soul is the heart and I suspect the soul is the seat of the intellect.

I would expect Meta Compulsion cants to do the same thing - only across multiple souls.
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: geoffrobro on October 08, 2015, 08:53:45 pm
Ishual may have been destroyed by the Consult a while ago, within the last 23 years. In the Prologue when Kellhus meets the "Mysterious yet to be named" Nonman, Kellhus tells him his first and last name. From there the non man pieces together that he is Dunyain "I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?
 
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 11, 2015, 05:41:56 pm
Ishual may have been destroyed by the Consult a while ago, within the last 23 years. In the Prologue when Kellhus meets the "Mysterious yet to be named" Nonman, Kellhus tells him his first and last name. From there the non man pieces together that he is Dunyain "I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power, eh?
 

geo, i don't get it!  do you think Mek destroyed Ishual right after Kellhus left?  i'm missing something.  it would be just sad if Dunyain are snuffed out by a series of accidents:

sranc happen to find ishual --> moe sent to investigate --> moe sent into world --> moe calls for back up --> kellhus sent out --> happens to run into Mek --> investigates the area --> finds destroys ishual

WHAT IF the Consult found out about Ishual after Moe made it out (as in a sranc left to report the odd captive and then the Scylvendi captured Moe).  then the Consult destroyed Ishual just thinking that it was some odd humans--they are easily burned up, dunyaininess counts for nothing.  Consult have no idea they just destroyed the Dunyain.

Moe captures/remakes a skinspy into a super-skinspy with Dunyain software.  drops him into Atrithau or just where Cnaiur would find him with memories preloaded

WHAT WHAT
Title: Re: Crazy Ass Speculation Thread
Post by: MG on October 21, 2015, 06:05:27 pm
The No-God is Seswatha.  The mummified heart and memories are someone else's invention.  Nau-Cayuti, who was actually a sorcerer (that's how he killed that dragon), put together a massive plan to exact revenge on his master/dad.  The dreams are tools to manipulate the ultimate destruction of Seswatha while signaling important information to the important chess pieces.