The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: Bolivar on January 20, 2016, 10:43:38 pm

Title: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on January 20, 2016, 10:43:38 pm
Figured a lot of people would be done with the book by now, and it's time for this thread anyhow  :)

What stood out to me was the extent to which the Holy War really was doomed at Caraskand - Kellhus' own internal dialogue sealed it for me. He truly couldn't figure his way out of that one and surrendered himself as a last resort "leap of faith," as TTT's What Came Before called it, knowing he'd be dead anyway even if it failed. Without that incredibly unlikely success, the Holy War was assuredly destroyed.

Cards on the table - this reread made me question if Moenghus was doing everything he could to destroy the Holy War before Shimeh. First the deal with the Ikurei, which the skin spies did everything possible to talk Xerius out of. It completely uprooted Maithanet's ploy to play the Nansur, by keeping them in the dark about the Scarlet Spires treaty. And calling in Kellhus was a destructive move on so many levels. First, he knew a Dunyain would divide the Holy War into internecine conflict between Orthodox and Zaudunyani. Second, the return of an Anasurimbor by asking specifically for his son also subverted the Consult, who were very much one of the Great Factions seeking to destroy the Cishaurim. If nothing else, Kellhus would be able to outsmart Maithanet as a true Dunyain. I've always asked myself why Moenghus asked for his son instead of the most capable Dunyain. My crackpot is that this war was between Moenghus and Maithanet, the latter of whom had made a pact with the Consult, which Inrau's final scene strongly suggested.

As far as the Circumfixion, it still remains one of the biggest mysteries of the series for me. I think it intentionally mirrors the beginning of the book, where Kellhus prophesies Saubon's victory, the impossibility of which he decides to try again at the end of the book.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 12:42:56 am
To add to the bit Bolivar put forth about Kellhus not being able to see past the Circumfix, I had this passage highlighted from my re-read.

Quote
The path, Father … Where’s the path? No matter how many times he submitted to the rigours of the Probability Trance, all the lines were extinguished, either by disaster or by the weight of excessive permutations. The variables were too many, the possibilities too precipitous.

The cryptic passage from the second march did make it seem as if he had this all figured out. It seems as the Circumfix is essential to the Thousandfold Thought, it's what seizes the Holy War for Kellhus. But, as Bolivar said, it was purely a roll of the number sticks. There was no way the outcome could be predicted.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on January 21, 2016, 02:00:59 am
If it is a war between moe and maitha,  could maitha have summoned kellhus? Not moe?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on January 21, 2016, 02:09:23 am
The who are the dunyain scene suggests that maithanet was not actively plotting with them
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 04:12:16 am
I can't see it as a war between Moe and Maithenet. The letter to Proyas to assist Akka seems as if he's taking orders from Moe.  Maithenet basically becomes irrelevant in TAE, if it was a war between them two, I don't think that would be the case.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 21, 2016, 12:29:36 pm
OK, on to chapter 18:

Quote
When the first of the Great Names at last beat and hollered their way to the floor of the depression, they found Prince Kellhus at the bottom of a pit, standing knee-deep in waters with a dozen others, hoisting brimming skins to the groping hands above.
“He showed me,” he laughed, when they hailed them. “The God showed me!”

So, how did Kellhus find the water?  Did he just guess?  I'm definitely not buying a gos showing him...

Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

Chapter 20:

Quote
The Shrial Knight blinked in irritation. Despite his pious appearance, there was, Conphas thought, something about his bearing, some whiff of conceit perhaps, that belied the gold-embroidered tusk across his breast … Perhaps he’d misjudged this Sarcellus.

It's interesting that Conphas recognizes that something about Sarcellus is slightly off, but of course he can't place just what it is...
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 21, 2016, 12:38:06 pm
"He knows the Pragma have sent me as an assassin."
"He needs to be certain of me first"

When talking with the Cish that seeks him out.

Also from that passage something that stuck out.

"He leapt backward, drawing his sword. The Sorcerer-priest sailed over the balustrade, his hands pressed together, fingertip to fingertip.

"Anasurimbor Kellhus!" the descending figure called.

Meeting his reflection, the Cishaurim came to a jarring halt. Flecks of debris chattered across the po9lished marble."

Kellhus stood motionless,holding tight his chorae.

He's too young-----

Meeting his reflection? What does that mean? He looks just like Kellhus? After all Kellhus would have been able to see he was not his father from much farther away surely? Not realise he was just too young when face to face?

Anyway that's the 2nd explicit reference to Kellhus being an assassin sent by the Pragma.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 21, 2016, 12:40:06 pm
Also this section is my favourite part of the whole series, from Akka escaping/ Cnaiur sneaking into Carkasand to the hoisting of the head at the end.

EDIT: I think Kellhus just felt the moisture for the water, googling water in desert shows there are techniques to do so. I assume he just worked out how to do it.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 12:47:57 pm
Merchant, I seen that quote about the pragma's sending him as an assassin. I feel I must concede the fact to you.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 12:52:52 pm
Quote
Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

When Akka is first interrogated he speaks two words to the dismay of what that will do to him. I can go find the quote if you need me too.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 21, 2016, 01:45:28 pm
Quote
Chapter 19:

Do we find out how Akka summoned the Wrathi doll?  I can't recall.

When Akka is first interrogated he speaks two words to the dismay of what that will do to him. I can go find the quote if you need me too.


Ah, yeah, that makes sense, I do recall that now, no need for a quote.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on January 21, 2016, 02:20:47 pm
The who are the dunyain scene suggests that maithanet was not actively plotting with them

Yes but we know Aurang learned something about the Dunyain and Moenghus in between then and when he meets Cnaiur in TTT. He may have found someone in the North who encountered Moenghus when he first went south. But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.


So, how did Kellhus find the water?  Did he just guess?  I'm definitely not buying a gos showing him...

As the merchant said, I think he was able to figure it out on his own, knowing the Khirgwi were somehow staying replenished enough to continue assaulting them.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 03:21:41 pm

But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.

How does Aurang know that Kellhus is the bigger threat? There is literally zero textual evidence that outside of Kellhus the Consult even knows anything about the Dunyâin.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on January 21, 2016, 04:24:49 pm

But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.

How does Aurang know that Kellhus is the bigger threat? There is literally zero textual evidence that outside of Kellhus the Consult even knows anything about the Dunyâin.
I meant Moenghus:

Quote
Cnaiür spat, turned to the plate of the Meneanor, to the great finger of moonlight that divided its black back. “And the Dûnyain?”
“We need him to find the other …Moënghus. He’s the greater threat.”

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 21, 2016, 05:02:22 pm
Also this section is my favourite part of the whole series, from Akka escaping/ Cnaiur sneaking into Carkasand to the hoisting of the head at the end.

EDIT: I think Kellhus just felt the moisture for the water, googling water in desert shows there are techniques to do so. I assume he just worked out how to do it.

This, and the whole march, shows Kellhus has figured out some wilderness survival skills that he was comically lacking just a few months early when he left Ishual and nearly died of starvation in a woodland full of critters.

However, I do agree that he probably figured out some reasonable way of finding water. The lay of the land, small vegatation indicating accessible underground aquifers, or some other subtle clue that tipped him off that the others simply were not aware of.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 21, 2016, 05:10:01 pm

But perhaps he learned from Maithanet, since he also knows that Moenghus is a bigger threat than Kellhus at that point.

How does Aurang know that Kellhus is the bigger threat? There is literally zero textual evidence that outside of Kellhus the Consult even knows anything about the Dunyâin.
I meant Moenghus:

Quote
Cnaiür spat, turned to the plate of the Meneanor, to the great finger of moonlight that divided its black back. “And the Dûnyain?”
“We need him to find the other …Moënghus. He’s the greater threat.”

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

That's in TTT, right? And Cnaüir gives that info to Aurang right?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on January 21, 2016, 09:27:30 pm
So the cishaurim kellhus beheaded was either dunyain or moenghus' son. I lean to dunyain, because of the bits in thousand fold thought about kell and moe being functionally clones.
 (Given celmomas dreams in aspect emperor, probably all grown from his preserved seed.)
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 22, 2016, 10:18:18 am
So the cishaurim kellhus beheaded was either dunyain or moenghus' son. I lean to dunyain, because of the bits in thousand fold thought about kell and moe being functionally clones.
 (Given celmomas dreams in aspect emperor, probably all grown from his preserved seed.)

I'd go even further, if one assumes Moe's playing a bigger role. I'd say the body was Dunyain (hence why it took Kellhus being face to face to recognise it wasn't Moe) but the soul was not, IF Moe is going to pull a soul switch he practiced.

to pull it back a bit though. The text does imply that the Cishaurim looks just like Kell (and Moe) but younger. Mixed in with how many sons does Moe(edit said Maitha by mistake) have, why he(maitha) was wearing cheap dye on his beard etc.  I also think Maitha warning when he dies is to tell his "brothers" just doesn't get the plural out.

Also Kellhus "scans" him and the read he gets is "purpose" which lends itself to Dunyain as well.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 22, 2016, 01:20:55 pm
Quote
“How did you find me?”
“We see you. All of us.” Behind the man, the smoke rising from the Citadel opened like a great velvet rose.
“Us?”
“All of us who serve him—the Possessors of the Third Sight.”
Him … Father. He controlled a faction within the Cishaurim …

I feel like Kellhus is incorrect here.  Possessors of the Third Sight is said to refer to all Cishaurim, so what he would be saying is all that serve the Solitary God, not Moe.

I'm not sure what the broader implication would be though.  That the Solitary God guides them to help Kellhus as well?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 22, 2016, 05:51:07 pm
Ah, the 5 sons of moenghus. solves another one there, cut down by one of his others. I think thats all of them, i hope we dont find any more through this slog or I'll have to figure out another theory lol.

Preserved seed is a very probably way of maintaining a genetically diverse stock of people with limited mating partner choices, ie Ishual.
But with that, they can't technically be clones if they are 'made' that way. Just brothers. I think the functionally clones bit stems from identical rearing, which they would be intentionally doing to blot out all the messy nature stuff they can't breed away.

"Just say no to soul swapping" - Anonymous.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 22, 2016, 06:05:12 pm
Can you point me in the direction of the "5 sons of Moe" please? Not heard about that, is it a theory, sounds interesting.

cheers in advance.

EDIT: Google and got some weirdly formatted version which i'll attempt to read :)
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 22, 2016, 06:14:23 pm

"Just say no to soul swapping" - Anonymous.

Nah, the scene in TGO where Akka dreams about seeing a soul swap through multiple bodies is preparing us for more swapping souls. ;)

Kellhus, like a master magician, is going to swap everyone soul and body about to confuse the WLW.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 22, 2016, 06:18:35 pm
Can you point me in the direction of the "5 sons of Moe" please? Not heard about that, is it a theory, sounds interesting.

cheers in advance.

EDIT: Google and got some weirdly formatted version which i'll attempt to read :)

Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.0)
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 22, 2016, 07:40:27 pm
Can you point me in the direction of the "5 sons of Moe" please? Not heard about that, is it a theory, sounds interesting.

cheers in advance.

EDIT: Google and got some weirdly formatted version which i'll attempt to read :)

Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.0)

cheers :)

EDIT: Oh man i love seeing 7 pages of previously unknown speculation , like Akka in the Saerotic(sp?) library.

seems i did read it 6 months ago oh well.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 22, 2016, 07:52:15 pm
Lol. Oh, themerchant ;).

Wilshire and I reflect on our words forgotten here often.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 22, 2016, 09:23:50 pm
Re: google's weirdly formatted

Seems google has odd archive links. While unfortunate, if you go down to the bottom and click "see full version" you can get to the page.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Odium on January 24, 2016, 03:37:16 pm
I don't know if it's been suggested before - hell, it might have been Locke's initial insinuation from his post further up this page, but the idea that the Dunyain are all grown from Celmomas' seed would solve the problem of the Dunyain women.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on January 24, 2016, 05:36:14 pm
That’s a lot of seed man...
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on January 24, 2016, 06:42:54 pm

I don't know if it's been suggested before - hell, it might have been Locke's initial insinuation from his post further up this page, but the idea that the Dunyain are all grown from Celmomas' seed would solve the problem of the Dunyain women.
not my idea, someone else's, I am propagating it everywhere I can though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 12:16:30 pm
So, I have been sick with a stomach virus, so I am behind here, but what do we make of this line:

Quote
“My Nascenti … Tell them to show you what lies in the garden.”
“What? What lies in the garden?”

Have I just missed what this refers to?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 26, 2016, 12:50:29 pm
The head of a Skin-Spy that he kept after he was chased by them through Caraskand.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 01:15:50 pm
The head of a Skin-Spy that he kept after he was chased by them through Caraskand.

Ah, ok, makes sense.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 26, 2016, 02:38:42 pm
I don't know if it's been suggested before - hell, it might have been Locke's initial insinuation from his post further up this page, but the idea that the Dunyain are all grown from Celmomas' seed would solve the problem of the Dunyain women.
Doesnt solve the problem of women. It solves the need for males to procreate, but you still need nearly all the important parts - the egg (which includes all the organells within the cell, functionally, everything important), and a vessel to grow the cells in. Unless they have some inchoroi growth chambers, I assume they need women for at least the second thing, and while its possible to harvest and store eggs today it seems unlikely to me that this is the mechanism they are using to make little celmomas clones.

And again, making babies from the sperm of a single father makes all subsequent generations siblings, not clones.
Even if they had harvested eggs and used the same mother's eggs and the same father's sperm... yeah still siblings.

Getting genetic clones is a much more in-depth process than freezing some sperm and eggs. Check out a wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning for some basics.

They would need a good understanding of the Tekne to do this, given the assumption that the Dunyain are not all Cisharurim and any magic  they do would make all of them marked, including the babies they made via magics.

Growing them from a stock is a viable theory, but calling them clones is just wrong, as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 03:03:45 pm
Yeah, I am not buying that the Dunyain were up to cloning.  No, I think it is far more likely that they were engaging in eugenics, the method of which is unfortunately unknown.  It seems doubtful that Kellhus being a prodigy was an accident, but was probably the culmination of the whole project.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 26, 2016, 04:19:15 pm
I'd be very, very suprised if there isn't Nonman woman involved with the Dunyain. Why? It goes back to the bones and Maithenet's comment on how weak Inrilaitis bones were.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 04:41:42 pm
I'd be very, very suprised if there isn't Nonman woman involved with the Dunyain. Why? It goes back to the bones and Maithenet's comment on how weak Inrilaitis bones were.

No to dispute your point, because it's as likely as it is unlikely, however there is also the fact that we kind of know that the Anisurimbor line has at least some Nonman blood in it, even before the Dunyain project.

Chances are good that the eugenics project would bring the Nonman traits out further, if nothing else.  In this way, they could transcend human capabilities. 
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 26, 2016, 04:47:34 pm
Yea, there is multiple comments throughout the books describing Kellhus as alien, and I always took that to mean it's his Nonman traits that throw them off.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 05:08:28 pm
Yea, there is multiple comments throughout the books describing Kellhus as alien, and I always took that to mean it's his Nonman traits that throw them off.

Yes, not to mention:

Quote
The Kûniüric period proper did not begin until 1408, when Anasûrimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I, exploiting the confusion surrounding the collapse of the Scintya Empire, seized the Ur-Throne in Trysë, declaring himself the first High King of Kûniüri. Over the course of his long life (he lived to the age of 178, the reputed result of the Nonman blood in his veins)

From the Glossary.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 26, 2016, 06:09:55 pm
And of course, that removed entry we've got laying around, directly tying the anasurimbor line to a nonman paternal line.

Quote
source- http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=464.msg2350#msg2350
Sample Timeline exerpt

820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman
Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II
(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first
daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the
house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees
to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to
return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II
expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire.
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies
bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-
1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave
conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted
by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir.
- The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of
the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a
consonantal alphabet, c.835.

The Rape marks the end of the Nonman Tutelage, though the relations between the two races
would have their mecurial ups and downs until the First Apocalypse. The old Siqu caste, as
well as that of the Quya, have transformed considerably over the years. But then that's a
story for some other day.

The quote is a bit jumbled with information but from what I can figure:

Anasurimbor Omindalea is raped by the nonman Siqu. She dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera. Sanna-Jephera, after having a child to a house slave, is adopted as an heir, presumably keeping the Anasurimbor surname.

From that we know, assuming this isn't reneged, that a human female can conceive a child with a full nonman father, and this child can itself have subsequent children with other full human mates.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 26, 2016, 06:40:27 pm
Yeah, that too.  Presumably, Sanna-Jephera is the progenitor of the line that Nanor-Ukkerja hails from eventually (and presumably Celmomas).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Azuredarkness on February 09, 2016, 01:35:50 pm
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 09, 2016, 02:05:01 pm
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

Good point, the bearing of the half-breeds isn't necessarily deadly to the mother (at least not immediately).

By the way, good first post and welcome to the show.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on February 09, 2016, 02:45:57 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Azuredarkness.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Somnambulist on February 09, 2016, 03:16:38 pm
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

Unless... If we take the dates and info at face value, Nonman/human gestational periods are absurdly long.  If Dunyain gestation is longer than 'normal,' it could be an effect of their Nonman blood.  Five years is full-on on crazy-talk, but...  it wouldn't be the weirdest thing about Scott's world.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MG on February 10, 2016, 12:47:28 am
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.

hi Azuredarkness!  welcome!  nice catch!
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2016, 01:33:00 am
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.
Right, see, you'd think that, but it says

Quote
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera

Maybe the nonman children take longer to grow...

Also, welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 10, 2016, 04:20:01 pm
Well, I doubt she died bearing him, as the rape is dated to 820, and she lived till 825.
Right, see, you'd think that, but it says

Quote
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera

Maybe the nonman children take longer to grow...

Also, welcome to the forum.

No, the problem isn't us, it's the entry.

Quote
820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman
Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II
(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first
daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the
house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees
to Ishterebinth.

The entry is dated 820, but it says it occurred in 824.  My guess is 824 is correct, since it was never published, it was probably never proof-read and corrected.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 10, 2016, 04:28:50 pm
Speculation on non-cannon material is always a bit dicey. Thanks for pointing that out H.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 10, 2016, 04:31:22 pm
Speculation on non-cannon material is always a bit dicey. Thanks for pointing that out H.

Us right now (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAPSBMQEKU).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on February 12, 2016, 02:37:22 am
In Chapter 22 theres a cut to two guards, Rash and Wrigga, talking about one of their first sightings of Kellhus' and Serwe's child. these two were setup to tell Cnaiir that the babys name was Moenghus, as soon as Cnaiir leaves, the two men look at each other
"then just to be certain. they resumed their fabricated conversation. As theyd been instructed."

Who set this up? Kellhus? To start the wheel rolling on Cnaiirs betrayal?  Thats a odd way to inform Cnaiir that his son was born and named Moenghus. Natural word of mouth would of spread that info.

 
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 12, 2016, 11:25:03 am
I felt like it was Kellhus.  Sure, word of mouth would have taken it to him also, but not on Kellhus' terms and schedule.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: profgrape on February 12, 2016, 03:46:29 pm
Yeah, definitely feels like a Dunyain sort of move to keep Cnaiur focused on the goal.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 12, 2016, 05:11:49 pm
Speculation on non-cannon material is always a bit dicey. Thanks for pointing that out H.

Us right now (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAPSBMQEKU).
lmao. yes.

I felt like it was Kellhus.  Sure, word of mouth would have taken it to him also, but not on Kellhus' terms and schedule.
agreed
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on February 12, 2016, 07:22:06 pm
Maybe it was just an issue of time. They needed him to go along with the Circumfixion so instead of letting Word of Mouth work it's course (or worse, the name getting messed up along the way), he sent them to speak it aloud where Cnaiur might be.

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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on February 14, 2016, 08:07:36 am
Well Kellhus is dunyain they don't just let stuff play out(unless they know how it plays out), they dominate circumstances , Cnaiur needed to forget Moenghus face so he could sell out Kellhus, so Kellhus would be taken and then he needed him to see serwe get killed (his substitute for his substitute of Moe) to remind him of his hate that he forgot.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: nicodante on February 24, 2016, 12:50:19 pm
I've just finished TWP reread - one thing I picked up on that i hadn't noticed before was the possibility that Proyas actively betrayed/sold out Akka to the scarlet spires - though I'm not sure it's confirmed outright anywhere...


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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 29, 2016, 02:33:38 pm
Finished TWP. What a great book.

Didn't catch that Cnaiur expected them to kill Esmi rather than Serwe. He wouldn't have otherwise saved Kellhus had it gone the other way.
His monologue also points out that Kellhus' only choice was to be circumfixed. The secret of battle, was is conviction. Its the lesson Cnaiur taught him before the desert. They need not beat the Sapitash, just convince his soldiers that they were defeated, but they needed the indomitable conviction of his subsequent release to achieve this goal.

Maybe it was just an issue of time. They needed him to go along with the Circumfixion so instead of letting Word of Mouth work it's course (or worse, the name getting messed up along the way), he sent them to speak it aloud where Cnaiur might be.

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According to the boat captain, someone named Kellah was taking over the holy war ;).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on February 29, 2016, 02:39:55 pm
Maybe it was just an issue of time. They needed him to go along with the Circumfixion so instead of letting Word of Mouth work it's course (or worse, the name getting messed up along the way), he sent them to speak it aloud where Cnaiur might be.

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According to the boat captain, someone named Kellah was taking over the holy war ;).

I believe when Achamian finally tells Nautzera about Kellhus in TTT, Nautzera comments that they'd heard about a "Nasurius" rather than an Anasurimbor. I'll have to find that quote because it's going to bug me.

I do really enjoy little things like this in Bakker's writerly considerations.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on February 29, 2016, 02:59:24 pm
Quote
Nautzera had heard, apparently through informants near to the Imperial Court, that a man claiming to be a prophet had grown to prominence among the Men of the Tusk, but the name Anasûrimbor had become Nasurius by the time it reached Atyersus. They had dismissed it as simply one more fanatic contrivance.

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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 29, 2016, 03:08:03 pm
Nasurius Kellah - not quite the same weight as Anasurimbor Kellhus I guess.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on February 29, 2016, 03:57:56 pm
Thanks, Bolivar.

Edited your quote tags into working order (you had a wild "p" in there).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 29, 2016, 05:49:49 pm
This book really struck me emotionally a lot more than it had in the past. I had a lot more sympathy for esmi and felt more powerfully the losses of Akka/Proyas/Xin. All good things.

The Shadow Way was also curious to me, especially with the Cish seemingly avoiding identifying Akka/Xin as they moved back into the city. Moenghus keeping Kellhus' bid for the gnosis alive?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on July 15, 2016, 12:00:06 am
One thing I liked while rereading this was seeing that Kellhus actually has feelings. Hes not entirely robotic. He expresses pity when he almost kills Cnaiur on the beach. Watching Esmi almost fall made his heart skip a beat. He actually cares about her. In his delusions while on the Circumfix with Serwe he prays for her to come back to life. Real interesting stuff. This makes his appearance of instability in the next trilogy make more sense. It started here.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: Seomus on July 15, 2016, 04:10:14 am
One thing I liked while rereading this was seeing that Kellhus actually has feelings. Hes not entirely robotic. He expresses pity when he almost kills Cnaiur on the beach. Watching Esmi almost fall made his heart skip a beat. He actually cares about her. In his delusions while on the Circumfix with Serwe he prays for her to come back to life. Real interesting stuff. This makes his appearance of instability in the next trilogy make more sense. It started here.

He feels outrage in TDTCB when Serwe is raped by Cnaiur right after he claims her as his prize. Kellhus ponders from what darkness the emotion came from. So he definitely feels something for Serwe far earlier.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part Three: The Third March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on July 15, 2016, 08:47:21 am
One thing I liked while rereading this was seeing that Kellhus actually has feelings. Hes not entirely robotic. He expresses pity when he almost kills Cnaiur on the beach. Watching Esmi almost fall made his heart skip a beat. He actually cares about her. In his delusions while on the Circumfix with Serwe he prays for her to come back to life. Real interesting stuff. This makes his appearance of instability in the next trilogy make more sense. It started here.

Keep following the light, there you will find the truth.