The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: H on December 13, 2016, 03:34:35 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: H on December 13, 2016, 03:34:35 pm
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on December 13, 2016, 07:27:09 pm
I actually never read the exchange as an admission of failure.
This scene requires the passage where Kellhus recounts what he saw while hanging from the tree in Caraskand to understand what happens here (the "vision between the stars" thing). Moënghus did not understand that Kellhus had pierced the veil allowing him to see the Head on a Pole, which Kellhus immediately understood from Mo's admission of the sentence "Your trial has broken you" (that is in the passage in Kyudea, in TTT).

The fascinating thing is that Kellhus listens, or at least acts on the commands of the Voice, without knowing is origins. Which suggests the Voice is something/someone more accomplished in bending someone to his will than himself.
Either that, or the arguments really are compelling.

But what the scene really tells us, in my opinion, is an admission of what Kellhus is doing both to Proyas and The Great Ordeal. Meaning: Reshaping them the way he was reshaped from scratch by the Voice, by driving them to the edge of sanity, in order to serve the new purpose they cannot fulfil in their current state.
- Proyas needs to be able to do the culling (and most likely much much worse than that)
- TGO needs to be enslaved, or at least mentally broken to fulfil some purpose that remains to be seen
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: H on December 13, 2016, 08:54:59 pm
I actually never read the exchange as an admission of failure.

Well, not a failure, but a mistake.  In other words, something he shouldn't have done.  But indeed, on the reread, I don't think he is saying even that.

This scene requires the passage where Kellhus recounts what he saw while hanging from the tree in Caraskand to understand what happens here (the "vision between the stars" thing). Moënghus did not understand that Kellhus had pierced the veil allowing him to see the Head on a Pole, which Kellhus immediately understood from Mo's admission of the sentence "Your trial has broken you" (that is in the passage in Kyudea, in TTT).

The fascinating thing is that Kellhus listens, or at least acts on the commands of the Voice, without knowing is origins. Which suggests the Voice is something/someone more accomplished in bending someone to his will than himself.
Either that, or the arguments really are compelling.

Well, I have, in other spots, thrown out the theory that the Voice he hears and is referring to, is his own in fact, but from the future.  This would explain why he mention he listened "in his disorder," that is that he was so disoriented from the visions that he failed to realize that the Voice, his own voice, was in fact not actually from himself.

But what the scene really tells us, in my opinion, is an admission of what Kellhus is doing both to Proyas and The Great Ordeal. Meaning: Reshaping them the way he was reshaped from scratch by the Voice, by driving them to the edge of sanity, in order to serve the new purpose they cannot fulfil in their current state.
- Proyas needs to be able to do the culling (and most likely much much worse than that)
- TGO needs to be enslaved, or at least mentally broken to fulfil some purpose that remains to be seen

A good point.  I had an inkling that he was attempting to dishearten, or sow disbelief in Proyas, but perhaps it is also to disorient them, in the sense that they would be so beyond what they could comprehend that they couldn't follow any path but the one Kellhus has put them on.  Not unlike what happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix, in the sense that he was then "open" to the Voice posing as his own, at a time when reason would be at an all time low and suggestibility at a high.

Interesting food for thought.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on December 14, 2016, 04:16:03 pm
Well, I have, in other spots, thrown out the theory that the Voice he hears and is referring to, is his own in fact, but from the future.  This would explain why he mention he listened "in his disorder," that is that he was so disoriented from the visions that he failed to realize that the Voice, his own voice, was in fact not actually from himself.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Voice being Korringhus, of whom we know has grasped the Absolute (or maybe the Boy, but I think he has different role to play). I have still not read Kellhus has.
We know Kellhus has seen beyond the Veil, which could very well mean he is not the one behind it.

Quote
A good point.  I had an inkling that he was attempting to dishearten, or sow disbelief in Proyas, but perhaps it is also to disorient them, in the sense that they would be so beyond what they could comprehend that they couldn't follow any path but the one Kellhus has put them on.  Not unlike what happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix, in the sense that he was then "open" to the Voice posing as his own, at a time when reason would be at an all time low and suggestibility at a high.
I mentioned it in the Aörsi thread, I think: I think Saubon was ready to fulfil his task, based on the descriptions we receive from the atrocities committed during the Unification Wars. Saubon was broken during TPN and sent on his path. Proyas still isn't because Kellhus didn't need him to be ready until the Dagliash aftermath.

Quote
Interesting food for thought.
Clearly!

Edit: Also remember a Harbinger is a messenger... The one that comes before.
I also mentioned in the 100 stones thread (I think) that Korringhus breaks the cycle of Before and After when he jumps.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2016, 04:53:10 pm
Harbinger is no longer a thing in light of the new vision of the prophecy. There is no longer a harbinger, only the end of the world.
(being that by definition a harbinger is distinct in that it would tell of destruction, rather than being said destruction).


The Absolute for the dunyain is becoming a self moving soul. Korringhus perhaps saw the Absolute, or maybe a path to it, but I don't think be became The Absolute himself - or at least we don't know that he did.

I take the passage as an admission that killing his father was a mistake. You don't call yourself mentally unstable and use that as a justification of taking correct action.

As for who/what the Voice is ... I'm thinking its the same voice he heard on the Circumfix. What agency (person/place/thing/idea?) that might be, I don't know.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: H on December 14, 2016, 06:33:10 pm
I was thinking more along the lines of the Voice being Korringhus, of whom we know has grasped the Absolute (or maybe the Boy, but I think he has different role to play). I have still not read Kellhus has.
We know Kellhus has seen beyond the Veil, which could very well mean he is not the one behind it.

Very plausible.  Indeed, that was definitely my intial impression, that it was Koringhus.  But the scene of Saubon reaching back to himself just put me on the track that it was Kellhus himself.

I mentioned it in the Aörsi thread, I think: I think Saubon was ready to fulfil his task, based on the descriptions we receive from the atrocities committed during the Unification Wars. Saubon was broken during TPN and sent on his path. Proyas still isn't because Kellhus didn't need him to be ready until the Dagliash aftermath.

Indeed, both Saubon and Proyas are simply pawns for Kellhus.  As is everyone else.  In fact, this is something of a cornerstone of my theory, that the Voice is Kellhus and Kellhus himself is actually a pawn of himself.

The Absolute for the dunyain is becoming a self moving soul. Korringhus perhaps saw the Absolute, or maybe a path to it, but I don't think be became The Absolute himself - or at least we don't know that he did.

Well, I do believe that Korringhus achieved the Absolute, but I don't know what that actually means, since he achieved it in death.  My guess is he is still dead, but his soul is now free?  I don't even know what that means really.

I take the passage as an admission that killing his father was a mistake. You don't call yourself mentally unstable and use that as a justification of taking correct action.

That was my initial impression, but Kellhus is basically whelming Proyas here.  It would seem to me that Kellhus actually is "chastising" himself not for killing Moe, but rather for listening.  Perhaps the subtlety in the difference there is me reading too far in, but it seems that he is using Proyas' morality, that he would be abhorrent to the idea of patricide, to shock and horrify him.  I don't actually think that Kellhus regrets killing Moe.  In fact, I don't think there would ever have been a different way for the TTT (the Thought itself, not the book, per se) to play out, because Moe was wrong, there are violations of Before and After. 

He tells Proyas that Heaven is not sane.  Why isn't it?  Because the voice tells him insane things.  Things that shouldn't be possible, like Before and After being false, that killing Moe needs to be done, that allowing Akka to walk free is correct, that allowing Mommen to fall is the path to victory, along with letting Fanayal live all that time.  None of these things, on their own, make sense.  In fact, we have commented in the past how insane some of them seem.  Yet, it is how it needs to be.  Kellhus cannot have a rival (he must kill Moe), he must allow Akka to be "free" (to impregnate Mimara), let Fanayal live (it will draw out Yatwer in a round-about way), etc.  The Voice is not sane and it is not sane to listen to it (because how can you know what it says will be true?), but the Voice is right and it cannot be any other way.

As for who/what the Voice is ... I'm thinking its the same voice he heard on the Circumfix. What agency (person/place/thing/idea?) that might be, I don't know.

Definitely buying the Voice as the same throughout.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MG on March 08, 2017, 04:19:18 am
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.

THIS IS LIKE AN UPCOMING SHOW!  A DUNYAIN PANEL OF JUDGES EVISCERATE EARWAN SINGERS
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 08, 2017, 05:51:23 pm
Quote
“My father had anticipated this, had known that the trial of my journey would transform me, that the assassin who had departed Ishuäl would arrive his disciple.”
Petulant fury. Toddler defiance. “No! This canno—!”
“But there was something he failed to realize …”
Swollen indecision. Hope reaching out through anguish and asphyxiation, clutching for the reversal that would return everything to what had been. “What? What?”
“That my trial would drive me mad.”

----------

But you are my Lord! M-my salvation!
“Caraskand … The Circumfix …”
No—cease! Stop this! I’m-I’m begging you! Pleas—
“I began seeing … phantasms, hearing voices … Something began speaking to me.”
Please … I-I …
“And in my disorder, I listened … I did what it commanded.”
Sobs wracked the man, the convulsions of a bereaved child. But these words yanked something through Proyas, as if he had been wound by a windlass and released. The Place relaxed its grip, lowered him back to its lap. The man’s bloodshot eyes fixed him heedless of any shame or fury.
“I killed my own father,” the Place said.
“The God! It has to be the God! The God spe—”
“No, Proyas. Gird yourself. Peer into the horror!”
I tend the fields …
A glutinous breath. The squint of a soul attempting to squint away its own misgivings. “You think th-this voice is … is your own?”
And burn them.
The Place smiled the negligent smile of those who could have no stake in feuds so minor.
“The truth of a thing lies in its origins, Proyas. I know not from whence this voice comes.”
Hope, beaming with a hand-seizing urgency. “Heaven! It comes from Heaven! Can’t you see?”
The Place gazed down at its most beautiful slave.
“Then Heaven is not sane.”

I think this exchange is one of the most fascinating portions of TGO.  Before I cloud the waters with my own suppositions, how did this come across to you?

My initial reaction was that he admitted that killing Moe was a mistake.  But on a reread, it actually doesn't seem that way.  Thoughts?  Then I'll throw in my two cents.

For me, these "teaching moments" of Kellhus are fascinatingly difficult. In them, Kellhus has to be seen as the ultimate unreliable narrator. Here, as readers, we "believe" Kellhus is telling Proyas the "truth" while at the same time we know that Kellhus is shaping Proyas, "his most beautiful slave".

So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?

[EDIT Madness]: Quote tags.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on March 08, 2017, 10:00:08 pm
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 08, 2017, 10:12:21 pm
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

But Serwë was never similarly disillusioned, was she? I'm thinking the shaping of Proyas will lead to some amazing developments in TUC.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 08, 2017, 10:13:39 pm
Yeah but Serwe never had anything. And what was she the vessel for? (other than a vessel for Cnaiur / Moenghus ). Proyas is a King, he has everything, he still has everything except maybe faith . But who needs faith when you are wealth AF and everyone thinks you're god's right hand man.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MG on March 08, 2017, 10:36:37 pm
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

But Serwë was never similarly disillusioned, was she? I'm thinking the shaping of Proyas will lead to some amazing developments in TUC.

CAN CONFIRM

EDIT: EXCEPT I WOULDN'T SAY THAT "AMAZING" IS THE RIGHT WORD
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 08, 2017, 10:57:04 pm
Damn......well, I would imagine that "bowel-loosening" might  be closer to the mot juste......
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MG on March 08, 2017, 11:05:14 pm
Damn......well, I would imagine that "bowel-loosening" might  be closer to the mot juste......

BIG SMILE
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MSJ on March 09, 2017, 10:12:51 pm
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 10, 2017, 01:35:46 pm
mot juste......

That is an amazing word.

So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.

Forfeiture is loss, blindness the way the Cisharuim do it is also loss, and ignorance is willful unknowingness - which is almost a kind of loss. (distinct from naivete, which Serwe was the personification of).

As far as Ignorance as a measure for holiness, again Proyas does not fit that bill. He isn't ignorant, he's a friggin KING. The right-hand-man to GOD. If you want ignorant, take some schmuck the army. Or the poor old fools left back at home. Everyone in this series is ignorant of something, but the cabal of trusted advisor to Kellhus are not the foremost among them.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on March 10, 2017, 05:08:15 pm
mot juste......

That is an amazing word.

The right word...

Quote
So Kellhus is disillusioning Proyas.....for what purpose? What must Proyas become?


The one who had everything but lost it, therefore becoming the perfect vessel? Remember Serwë.

Well, ignorance is just as holy. And, Proyas was certainly ignorant as what Kellhus really is and the nature of the Gods. In that way, he is a great vessel. Remember it isn't loss so much as ignorance, forfeiture and blindness.

Forfeiture is loss, blindness the way the Cisharuim do it is also loss, and ignorance is willful unknowingness - which is almost a kind of loss. (distinct from naivete, which Serwe was the personification of).

As far as Ignorance as a measure for holiness, again Proyas does not fit that bill. He isn't ignorant, he's a friggin KING. The right-hand-man to GOD. If you want ignorant, take some schmuck the army. Or the poor old fools left back at home. Everyone in this series is ignorant of something, but the cabal of trusted advisor to Kellhus are not the foremost among them.
Which makes him able to lose everything because he has everything. In addition, he's willing to do everything for Kellhus and Kellhus knows that.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 10, 2017, 06:46:14 pm
But Kellhus can turn anyone into the perfect vessel. In fact, Kellhus does turn everyone into the tools he needs.

 Proyas isn't special in that he's the only one that could fulfill that role, he's special because Kellhus made him so. Kellhus might have spent every day since Shimeh grooming Proyas for this task/role, which is why he's the one that so perfectly fits this purpose now - but Kellhus could have done the same with anyone.

Proyas is just a person who was molded into exactly what Kellhus needed when he needed it. Everyone is a slave to Kellhus' will.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 11, 2017, 06:19:01 pm
but Kellhus could have done the same with anyone
But wood is different from iron & bone? Proyas is a rare soul -- was tutored by Drusas Achamian, an heir to Conriya throne, a man in strong need of absolute truth and strong judgement.  I mean, even duniyains have limits, they have to work with what they have.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2017, 06:31:25 pm
The Mandate tutor many, many students, primarily the sons of wealthy, powerful men. The powerful and wealthy have sons who are heirs. Proyas is not special in that regard.

What makes a man need truth? Kellhus demonstrates over and over that All men desire truth, its how me controls. He explicitly says that small truths make men belive. Proyas, again, is not special.

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context. But we are told that  Kings with multiple heirs send their younger sons into the Thousand Temples. Lots of them, I'm sure, end up with a powerful need for judgement and faith. So, again and again, Proyas is just a Man.

Further, how many sons went on the Crusade? Many, many powerful households sent not just one son, but their entire lines. The Conriya house was not unique.

Nothing about Proyas is special, except that Kellhus chose him. He could have chosen any son from any of the neumerous powerful houses in the holy war. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 11, 2017, 08:56:24 pm
The Mandate tutor many, many students, primarily the sons of wealthy, powerful men. The powerful and wealthy have sons who are heirs. Proyas is not special in that regard.
The accent was more on Achamian, less on a mandate. Guy bedded an empress when she was a whore and befriended the last king of Nonman when he was, kinda, a mumbling guide. I see a blind agent of Anangke spilling grey luck all over his unsuspecting kith. :3

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context.
Nope, in a secular. Like, a quite common asshat attitude. Proyas is especially talented at inflicting his opinion -- good quality for a duniyain instrument.


Also I feel like I`m failing in unfolding my point.

Proyas is special as a rare mix of useful and handy factors (good warrior, smart scholar, actually noble, have some backdoors into his thinking). There's better men and women to use instead of him, but most of them are just geographically unreachable or hard to find. There's worse men and women -- and they are out of the loop.

Maybe I can express what I`m thinking through comparison. It's like anthropic principle. If Kellhus chose some people, they are special. I dunno if there's actually more pristine definition of speciallness than to be used by duniyanin.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Madness on March 11, 2017, 09:44:30 pm
Well, and that Maithanet hand picked him to be a setup. Also, expressed a particular interest in Proyas' relationship with a Mandati, which he explicitly tried to leverage over PON to give Kellhus a spontaneous leg up over the Anagogis, as was likely originally planned by Moenghus and Maithanet by the specific inclusion of the Spires over the Saik.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on March 11, 2017, 11:57:06 pm
Apologies, I was not in a position to reply earlier: But Simas summarises the reason quite solidly. In addition, the fact that Kellhus calls him his most loyal slave (not the exact words), stresses the importance of Proyas in his plans. He either has to lose everything, or enough to make him worthy of Becoming (stress on the capital for metaphysical implications) the second Ciphrang head at Kellhus's belt (imo. next to Saubon's).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2017, 12:30:35 am
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

And what of Judgement? I presume you mean that in a religious context.
Nope, in a secular. Like, a quite common asshat attitude. Proyas is especially talented at inflicting his opinion -- good quality for a duniyain instrument.

lmao
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Francis Buck on March 12, 2017, 07:36:36 pm
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

Now that's Classic Wilshire  ;). Kickass post.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MSJ on March 13, 2017, 12:57:42 am
@Wilshire, "Also, Akka is not special". Blasphemy. He Is very special his dreams has sent him to being a major player to these end events of TUC. Though, I concede that Kellhus might be behind the dreams, I'm not totally sold. You're underestimating a man, who has been underestimated by himself and others this whole epic. I'd say he will be a very important hinge of events to unfold in TUC. Plus, I love the man.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 14, 2017, 12:11:54 am
Hey, I'm an Akka man all the way. If his dreams are some kind of divine intervention that has nothing to do with the dunyain, then I'll allow for him being special. Otherwise, everyone that has been around kellhus for a long time walks always on his conditioned ground.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on March 14, 2017, 06:18:18 am
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.

On a different note: Did we ever get an explanation why Kellhus thinks he can talk to Seswatha through Achamian?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 14, 2017, 06:52:51 pm
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.
If everyone always agreed, no interesting conversation would ever be had.

On a different note: Did we ever get an explanation why Kellhus thinks he can talk to Seswatha through Achamian?
Nope.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Monkhound on March 14, 2017, 08:31:15 pm
Thought so... Well, looking forward to the reason  ;D
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: MSJ on March 14, 2017, 11:10:14 pm
I understand your point, Wilshire. Just not sure if I totally agree.
If everyone always agreed, no interesting conversation would ever be had.

That's why me and H are such good friends! :)

Yes, we have to disagree to even have a forum, ya know?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Francis Buck on March 15, 2017, 12:00:56 am
Yes, we have to disagree to even have a forum, ya know?

I disagree!
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 12:59:17 pm
Proyas the Place is the important part. He is certainly extremely important during the timespace of TGO, even in PoN. What we are saying is extremely similar, but I'd phrase it as such: The Kellhus made people special by choosing them, not the other way around. I think your definition is closer to "the author made the character, so its therefore specials" which, while true, doesn't satisfy my need for in-world explanations. 

As Madness says, he might have been groomed before we even saw him on screen by Maithanet/Moenghus specifically for Kellhus. That's something like 30+ years of conditioning directly and indirectly by Dunyain. He's a well shaped tool, but uncoupled from the dunyain who knows what he might have been.

Also, Achamian isn't really special either. He's the Mandate-Place that was stepped upon to gain the Gnosis. The Prince-Place was fulfilled by Proyas, but could have been any number of Princes that had functionally similar experiences - which is what I was attempting to demonstrate above.

The point is this :They are all parts of a plan that gets from point A to point B (TTT). The Places (people) in between are inconsequential in the specifics, but extremely vital in their generalities. Kellhus needed to be taught the gnosis, he needed a prince to back him, he needed later a queen to bare his children, good generals to lead his war efforts to groom to be his exalt-generals, and eventual general-in-fact while he was gone. He needed many different positioned filled, but they are all just pieces on the benjuka plate. When he moves them, the rules change - the pieces just do what they are told.

I'm thinking that it is important to keep in mind the contingent aspect of Kellhus' quest. He has to use the tools at hand. As Kellhus is introduced to the Earwan ruling class, he chooses Proyas as a result of his scrutiny, the Probability Trance, and his search for the Shortest Path. His use of Cnauir was contingent, and the reverberations of that choice may still haunt Kellhus.

I believe that Kellhus chooses Proyas because he is the best tool for a certain project. So in that sense, he is special (and perhaps irreplaceable).
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 15, 2017, 01:47:46 pm
Kellhus made tons of mistakes along the way, that's for sure, and he did the best he could with what was available. I forget what we were originally talking about lol... But i'll concede to Proyas being the best tool available at the time.

Though, the idea that he was being manipulated by Maithanet/Moenghus  for years before Kellhus got to him really appeals to me. Its a nice, long lasting connection to Moenghus.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 03:54:53 pm
Kellhus made tons of mistakes along the way, that's for sure, and he did the best he could with what was available. I forget what we were originally talking about lol... But i'll concede to Proyas being the best tool available at the time.

Though, the idea that he was being manipulated by Maithanet/Moenghus  for years before Kellhus got to him really appeals to me. Its a nice, long lasting connection to Moenghus.

I'm with you on that, Wilshire. To support your view, isn't it interesting that Akka becomes the tutor of Proyas? Akka, who just happens to be attached to Esmenet? Small world, Earwa.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: H on March 15, 2017, 05:11:50 pm
I'm with you on that, Wilshire. To support your view, isn't it interesting that Akka becomes the tutor of Proyas? Akka, who just happens to be attached to Esmenet? Small world, Earwa.

And that Kellhus would meet Mekeritrig, of all people, along his way?  And come out in the same place as Cnaiur's father's burial mound?  Or Cnaiur would be there at that time?

So many coincidences, one might start to think there is no such thing...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 15, 2017, 05:39:14 pm
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 05:45:37 pm
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Freud
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: Wilshire on March 15, 2017, 06:13:48 pm
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Chekhov's Gun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun)

Fixed the quote. Inserted more irony. Though a less ironic citation would have been MacGuffin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 08:02:36 pm
Its not a historical text, its a narrative written by Bakker. Sometimes things are plot devices lol.

WHAT???  Not a historical text?? Heresy!

"Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device."
-Chekhov's Gun Phaser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun)

Fixed the quote. Inserted more irony. Though a less ironic citation would have been MacGuffin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)

Ah HA! A quote fixer! ...smdh...well played, sir!

"If a nuke appears in Dagliash in the first act....." no, I got nuthin'.....wait....here we go: I'm re-fixing the quote(adding a pop-culture reference). Your move ;-)