The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: H on July 11, 2017, 02:17:35 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 02:17:35 pm
For lack of a better title, this is what I'll put this under and port it over here for perusal.

First, we have the interesting "revelation" that the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of the Ark.  In other words, it is a part of the Ark itself.

But wait, it goes further...why does the No-God need a soul in it at all?  How did that work on other worlds?

 Unless, the Ark didn't need a soul, because the Ark already had a soul.

Consider, the Ark made the Inchoroi to serve it.  Why?  It was the Ark itself who was looking for the answer to the "soul problem."  So, when Seswatha says the Ark was once living, it wasn't living in the sense of breathing, it was living in the sense of it having had a soul.  In other words, perhaps the Ark is the Progenitor, or rather, what is left of them.

But wait, look how the DūnSult refer to it.  Not the Ark, but just Ark.  That's it's name.  It is a being.  A mostly artificial one at this point, but one nonetheless.  It died, in the sense that the soul that kept it running was gone, post-Arkfall though, which is why the Inchoroi were so lost, they were a weapon race with nothing to wield them.  Because it was Ark who wielded them before, via the No-God apparatus, which was probably where the soul of Ark was.  It was Ark's "brain," which is probably why it can control all the Tekne things too.

So the No-God apparatus didn't need a soul while Ark "lived," Ark had it's own soul, a soul that was seeking to find the answer to the 144,000 question.  That question is what lead to it making the Inchoroi, who, later abandoned by Ark when it died in the fall, were left to try to figure out just what Ark was trying to do.  A prosthesis needs something to wield it.  Ark wielded it while it was still "alive" but now, some other soul needs to "read the code."

So, what kind of soul is needed to do so?  Presumably one that is suitably close to Ark's original one.  And if the DūnSult are right and the Progenitor's sin was to stray too close to Absolute, then the surrogate soul needs to also be suitably close to the Absolute too.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Walter on July 11, 2017, 02:33:43 pm
I dunno if 'living' means soul.  Like, Sranc are 'alive', and don't have one.  We never know if the Inchoroi do.  I'd bet the Arc was alive but not souled, a p-zombie like the No-God.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 03:37:19 pm
I dunno if 'living' means soul.  Like, Sranc are 'alive', and don't have one.  We never know if the Inchoroi do.  I'd bet the Arc was alive but not souled, a p-zombie like the No-God.

OK, then why did it care to find a solution to the "soul problem?"

One idea would be that it was programed to.  But then we are left with an additional question of, why bother?  The Progenetors would already be gone, or would presumably not reap the benefits of the Closed World.

It seems much more likely to me that the souls of the Progenetors are somehow still with the Ark, or are Ark, when it sets sail.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 11, 2017, 05:09:46 pm
First, we have the interesting "revelation" that the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of the Ark.  In other words, it is a part of the Ark itself.
But wait, it goes further...why does the No-God need a soul in it at all?  How did that work on other worlds?
So, what kind of soul is needed to do so?  Presumably one that is suitably close to Ark's original one.  And if the DūnSult are right and the Progenitor's sin was to stray too close to Absolute, then the surrogate soul needs to also be suitably close to the Absolute too.

In the last pages of TUC I've got a certain vibe about reality as a computer simulation and Ark as the extra-earwan project to crack this simulation from inside not unlike the earwan Duniyain Endeavour (or that certain Agent, who pwned the whole Matrix by becoming the every possible part of it). Glossary bits about "system" only solidified that impression. Thinking this way near-Absolute souls look like detonating fuses or spark plugs, a means for chain reaction when nothing can dominate everything.

Now I'm coming to something of a paradox here.
Is it possible to arrange a crippled, enslaved self-moving soul?
For No-God looks like both at the same time. A big BSOD.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Walter on July 11, 2017, 05:12:38 pm
The Progenitors could be a going concern, worried about their progeny.  Like, we are a technically advanced society, primarily concerned with finding new ways to whack off.  We find out that we are Damned, which is super annoying.  So we program up an AI, fill it with rape-orks and send it off to close the World.

It doesn't have a soul, so why does it care?  Well, we wrote a line of code that says it should.  Why did we do that?  Eternal hellfire would wreck our buzz.  Maybe we have our elders frozen, or maybe we are just fond of the idea that one day our descendants won't suffer our fate.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 05:15:48 pm
The Progenitors could be a going concern, worried about their progeny.  Like, we are a technically advanced society, primarily concerned with finding new ways to whack off.  We find out that we are Damned, which is super annoying.  So we program up an AI, fill it with rape-orks and send it off to close the World.

It doesn't have a soul, so why does it care?  Well, we wrote a line of code that says it should.  Why did we do that?  Eternal hellfire would wreck our buzz.  Maybe we have our elders frozen, or maybe we are just fond of the idea that one day our descendants won't suffer our fate.

That presumes though that closing a world closes the whole universe, which unfortunately we don't know is true or not.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Walter on July 11, 2017, 05:17:02 pm
I'm pretty sure we know the bad guys think it does, right?  Like, Aurang has a flashback about going world to world, looking for the one that matters, doesn't he?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 05:39:36 pm
I'm pretty sure we know the bad guys think it does, right?  Like, Aurang has a flashback about going world to world, looking for the one that matters, doesn't he?
But they also revere the chosen world as Eden and make the weapon races in such a way that they don't ruin the world - which to me means they plan to stay there forever.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 06:09:02 pm
I'm pretty sure we know the bad guys think it does, right?  Like, Aurang has a flashback about going world to world, looking for the one that matters, doesn't he?
But they also revere the chosen world as Eden and make the weapon races in such a way that they don't ruin the world - which to me means they plan to stay there forever.
Yeah, I just have a hard time believing that what happens on one world changes the whole universe.  I think it's a lot more local than that...but no way to prove it, either way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 06:13:22 pm
Well, Gods/hell/damnation seems to be universal, which means the 'outside' is everywhere. I'd agree that Earwa is its own special hell and what happens on Earwa remains locally.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 06:16:23 pm
Well, Gods/hell/damnation seems to be universal, which means the 'outside' is everywhere. I'd agree that Earwa is its own special hell and what happens on Earwa remains locally.

Right, right, good clarification.  Damnation is universal, but closure is world-based, would be my guess.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 11, 2017, 06:22:28 pm
Earwa could just be the hole through which damnation leaks into the larger universe.  Plug it, and you just saved the whole of existence from a tortuous afterlife.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 06:24:34 pm
Earwa could just be the hole through which damnation leaks into the larger universe.  Plug it, and you just saved the whole of existence from a tortuous afterlife.
Wow. Great analogy for the counter-point.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 06:34:54 pm
Earwa could just be the hole through which damnation leaks into the larger universe.  Plug it, and you just saved the whole of existence from a tortuous afterlife.

I think it might be the reverse though.  Eärwa is the hole through which the Outside leaks in and so is the place where you can dam it up and live a "dry" life.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 11, 2017, 07:03:14 pm
I'm a reductionist at heart :)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 07:29:24 pm
I'm a reductionist at heart :)

I recall now I am decidedly the opposite, whatever that is called, haha.

The more I think about it though, isn't that exactly what the Consult is trying to do?  Keep the Outside's grubby paws off their precious souls?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 07:33:35 pm
I'm a reductionist at heart :)
An additionist?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 11, 2017, 07:42:42 pm
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 07:57:01 pm
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

Yeah, in reality, it's something of a bidirectional system, I think, so a dam is not really the best analogy, probably.

In reality, the No-God is probably a firewall, of sorts.  Nothing in, nothing out.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Walter on July 11, 2017, 08:03:41 pm
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

I mean, all we need for the Ark's motivation is for the progenitors to THINK that Earwa is the one.  They can be wrong.  The point is to explain why a soulless device would bother closing the world against Damnation, and it feels like 'because it was programmed to' is a fine answer.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 08:23:37 pm
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

I mean, all we need for the Ark's motivation is for the progenitors to THINK that Earwa is the one.  They can be wrong.  The point is to explain why a soulless device would bother closing the world against Damnation, and it feels like 'because it was programmed to' is a fine answer.

Unless, of course, Ark was souled, as I theorized earlier.  That also answers two questions that would arise, namely: what was the sarcophagus for and how would it have worked?  Those are both solved, along with the locality issues, if Ark had a soul.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 11, 2017, 08:51:50 pm
I tend to think you are correct, H, in that Ark was ensouled.  It had descended upon worlds without number, reducing their populations to 144,00 in an attempt to disrupt the circuit of souls, right?  Since the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of Ark, it would follow that, on those other worlds, Ark's soul powered it.  When it crashed on Earwa, it 'died' and whatever remnant of the Holy Swarm that was left didn't know how to power up the Sarcophagus.  Then Shae figured out that it needed a soul to achieve System Initiation.

Or, maybe Ark just used any old being from whatever planet they were on, and it could help the process along.  Because it died on Earwa, though, the Sarcophagus needed a 'special' being to activate it.  Like, a person with two souls...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 09:59:35 pm
I tend to think you are correct, H, in that Ark was ensouled.  It had descended upon worlds without number, reducing their populations to 144,00 in an attempt to disrupt the circuit of souls, right?  Since the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of Ark, it would follow that, on those other worlds, Ark's soul powered it.  When it crashed on Earwa, it 'died' and whatever remnant of the Holy Swarm that was left didn't know how to power up the Sarcophagus.  Then Shae figured out that it needed a soul to achieve System Initiation.

Or, maybe Ark just used any old being from whatever planet they were on, and it could help the process along.  Because it died on Earwa, though, the Sarcophagus needed a 'special' being to activate it.  Like, a person with two souls...
I think that another piece of "evidence" is that the Progenitors were damned for being close to the Absolute.  It would then stand to reason that perhaps Ark's soul was then close to Absolute, even if it wasn't the Progenitor's, per se.

Therefore it would stand to reason that the soul needed for it to power up needs to be close to Absolute. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Somnambulist on July 11, 2017, 10:20:38 pm
The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cüréthań on July 11, 2017, 10:39:28 pm
No reason to think Nau-Cayuti was twin-souled though.

Perhaps the reason that Anasurimbor's can complete the Object is because they contain both Halaroi and Cunaroi bios AND a link to the outside that is shared by the ensouled indigenent peoples of Earwa.

edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 12:03:20 am
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

As for the Ark, it could be a creation of the Tekne left behind by the Progenitors. Has anyone read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? You'll get what I'm thinking. (it's a really short story found on the internet, so I'd recommend a read)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: locke on July 12, 2017, 02:29:03 am
I agree that NC as a child of seswatha was a goad from the mutilated who were manipulating Akkas dreams. It's exactly the sort of lie Akka would want to believe and it should braid him tighter to mimara as he associates himself with seswatha because of the dream he'll now associate the child with NC.

As for ark. I agree ark has / had a soul. But ark is functionally a quadrapelegic since the crash onto earwa, unable to use any of its capacity, totally limited to the accidental awakening of sil et al.

There is a decent chance that if the figure from the circumfix dream is not ajokli then it could be Ark. kellhus seems to think it is the no god, and the no god is the sarcophagus. And the sarcophagus is Ark.

Perhaps the relevant point of comparison is Shae, who has managed to sustain a horrific existence for millennia despite being functionally crippled and near death. Ark is probably in a similar state and perhaps this is why ark spoke with kellhus in such limited fashion.

If Ark needs humans close to the absolute for system resumption as has been suggested upthread then this would indicate that Ark may have been behind the establishment of the dunyain, their ethos, and why they were founded (they were founded to achieve system resumption with purpose bred humans)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 02:37:43 am
If Ark needs humans close to the absolute for system resumption as has been suggested upthread then this would indicate that Ark may have been behind the establishment of the dunyain, their ethos, and why they were founded (they were founded to achieve system resumption with purpose bred humans)

I'd like a further study on this; the origins of the Dunyain is a curiosity of mine and I hope Bakker will delve deeper into it
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: JRControl on July 12, 2017, 03:54:29 am
First, we have the interesting "revelation" that the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of the Ark.  In other words, it is a part of the Ark itself.
But wait, it goes further...why does the No-God need a soul in it at all?  How did that work on other worlds?
So, what kind of soul is needed to do so?  Presumably one that is suitably close to Ark's original one.  And if the DūnSult are right and the Progenitor's sin was to stray too close to Absolute, then the surrogate soul needs to also be suitably close to the Absolute too.

In the last pages of TUC I've got a certain vibe about reality as a computer simulation and Ark as the extra-earwan project to crack this simulation from inside not unlike the earwan Duniyain Endeavour (or that certain Agent, who pwned the whole Matrix by becoming the every possible part of it). Glossary bits about "system" only solidified that impression. Thinking this way near-Absolute souls look like detonating fuses or spark plugs, a means for chain reaction when nothing can dominate everything.

Now I'm coming to something of a paradox here.
Is it possible to arrange a crippled, enslaved self-moving soul?
For No-God looks like both at the same time. A big BSOD.

The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 12, 2017, 10:41:08 am
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

Technically, wouldn't Kellhus be descended from Ganrelka II?  He is the last one at Ishuäl and his bastard son is the only survivor when the Dūnyain arrive.

The question of who Ganrelka is though, in relation to Celmomas, is not know though, unfortunately.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 11:03:58 am
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

Technically, wouldn't Kellhus be descended from Ganrelka II?  He is the last one at Ishuäl and his bastard son is the only survivor when the Dūnyain arrive.

The question of who Ganrelka is though, in relation to Celmomas, is not know though, unfortunately.


Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 12, 2017, 11:09:58 am
Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

If he is Celmomas' son, he was born when Celmomas was only 15.  Not that this isn't possible, but I don't recall it being said how many son's Celmomas actually had.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 12, 2017, 11:20:22 am
Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

If he is Celmomas' son, he was born when Celmomas was only 15.  Not that this isn't possible, but I don't recall it being said how many son's Celmomas actually had.

Well, we know for a fact that Celmomas refers to Nau-Cayuti as his youngest son (right?), so he does have older son(s).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 12, 2017, 12:19:28 pm
Well, we know for a fact that Celmomas refers to Nau-Cayuti as his youngest son (right?), so he does have older son(s).

The glossary names Nau-Cayūti as his youngest, yes, so it is plausible that Ganrelka is an older son.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 13, 2017, 06:32:52 pm
As for the Ark, it could be a creation of the Tekne left behind by the Progenitors. Has anyone read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? You'll get what I'm thinking. (it's a really short story found on the internet, so I'd recommend a read)
That was a great read, thanks for the suggestion :)

Ark going on solving a question the Progenitors asked but are no longer around to hear the answer - A demonstration then.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 13, 2017, 07:00:59 pm
That was a great read, thanks for the suggestion :)

Ark going on solving a question the Progenitors asked but are no longer around to hear the answer - A demonstration then.

That is plausible, that they made Ark to guide them in finding the solution, only to die along the way, or even have Ark decide it doesn't actually need them any more, which would be a real kick in the balls.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 13, 2017, 07:08:53 pm
More like 'can we avoid damnation'?Ark tries to figure it out, does, then realizes they are all dead, decides it can still give them the answer to the question by closing off the Outside - making the answer self evident to those on the other side too.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 14, 2017, 12:15:57 pm
More like 'can we avoid damnation'?Ark tries to figure it out, does, then realizes they are all dead, decides it can still give them the answer to the question by closing off the Outside - making the answer self evident to those on the other side too.

It's plausible, but I still have a hard time with the idea that the Progenetors were not in, or a part of, Ark for the journey.

I guess it comes down to the question of locality.  If closing Eärwa saves everyone's soul, then it makes sense that they wouldn't be a part of Ark.  If not though, it seems rather silly to not be there for the victory.

Unless of course it's true that they were already dead.  That's plausible, but in the end, for me at least, not very satisfying.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Wilshire on July 14, 2017, 12:59:41 pm
I was just expanding Cuttlefish's point ;) . I've reach then end of my speculation on this train of thought as it wasn't my own to begin with so I'm not sure what the intent might has been. I think I agree with your side anyway H.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Walter on July 14, 2017, 01:51:16 pm
I tend the model the Progenitors as basically post Singularity types.  They probably *were* the Ark.  Like, with their technology they can probably swap their flesh forms around like changing a hat.  The truest version of them would be the pattern in the computer banks.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 14, 2017, 03:56:17 pm
I was just expanding Cuttlefish's point ;) . I've reach then end of my speculation on this train of thought as it wasn't my own to begin with so I'm not sure what the intent might has been. I think I agree with your side anyway H.

It was just an idea, really; I don't think there is anything definitive to build concrete theories on.

But I agree that the progenitors aren't gone for good. From what I remember, until this book, there was no implication that the Inchoroi weren't the original creators, and no narrative reason for them to not to be, so what would be the point of introducing the whole idea?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 15, 2017, 05:32:21 pm
The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
Aww. I like your elaboration so much.

I tend the model the Progenitors as basically post Singularity types.  They probably *were* the Ark.  Like, with their technology they can probably swap their flesh forms around like changing a hat.  The truest version of them would be the pattern in the computer banks.
So the Progenitors could be still present or reacheable? In lack of proper term, of course, for they could be far beyond the problems of physical death and consciousness containment.

I have this suspicion because after TUC even space-faring Inchoroi don't look competent enough to understand/remember about their creators/creation. They are just a mad battle cancer and their crash-landed mowglis are even less, a weak pugnacious cancerette. Fleshnexus like Sil can rally fleshnodes like Aurang. They can use their combined mass and knowledge to cannibalise tekne recognisable & suitable for their level of existence (energy weapon & mid-tier genetics, 'horde' mentality & 'purpose' concept). And all the same they loose to a natural-selection specie with slavery, spears and chariots. More than that, they've needed a help of a second natural-selection specie to be freed from imprisonment by first natural-selection specie and to implement some high-tier tekne from 'their' past. Inchoroi are so lost space puppies, actually ready to die in their master's absence on his favourite couch.

Or maybe they are just a runaway fleshsuit... I wonder, did Aurang and Aurax ever repeated lines like "WHAT DO YOU SEE" in unison with possessed srancs hordes in Seswatha memories or in direct descriptions of First Apocalypse? If yes, that's it. No-God in not a metaphysical device, it's a over-protected form of existence. There is no god inside sarcofagus, thus the ancient inhabitant(s) are safe from hungry demons. To look out of sarcofagus, they need a special soul -- a kind of conduit strong enough to bear their damnation while they use it as a cable from Nowhere&Never to Here&Now. To act out of sarcofagus, they need a fleshnet: inchoroi, wracu, sranc. And all that stuff like "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" -- it's just a static, an engine humming, a cable heating. If so, earwans never met inhabitant(s) of sarcofagus as inchoroi never knew them, even while whirlwind walked and talked on Earwa / some other planet. Maybe there is no possibilty for such communication at all because of tv tropes article (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence).

Oh. There is certainly a special kind of hell for digressions like mine. :c  plz sorry everyone

So, returning to the inchoroi blindness about their creators. How could the black goo inside these vats know something about this cute sleeping fellow? No, it could not. Different layers or reality. Too different. I hope we'll have them in the next books. >:з
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Yellow on July 16, 2017, 11:00:12 am
Quote
Secondly, it states in TUC that the NG collapses the Subject and the Object. I struggle to understand this but I think it takes a soul (which is usually the Subject) and makes it experience itself rather than the world (and/or Outside). So it becomes the Object as well.

Maybe this is a loop where it can only experience itself? So it blocks the passage for other souls and shuts the world. But it has no frame of reference, so although it experiences itself, it does not know what it is.

I'm quoting myself here (yeah, I went there) because I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this and it seems to have disappeared in the chatter.

Is this how "souls that encounter him go no further"? He literally plugs the hole by creating a logic loop.

I found the idea of "collapsing the Subject and Object" fascinating, but I don't have the tools to understand the implications.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: JRControl on July 16, 2017, 11:44:26 am
The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
Aww. I like your elaboration so much.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. Especially if you consider the Gods as system daemons that keep the simulation running smoothly and they are blind to the No-God because he is literally undefined for them. Souls are probably are useful threads/resources with more system authorization levels (magic) that then eventually get recycled by daemons. The Sranc? Computer worms. Other monstrosities? Polymorphic virals. Skin spies? Trojans. Meta-Gnosis? Hex editing or assembly level machine code manipulation. The God of Gods being referred to as the unconscious whole strikes me as how we see a PC as separate, distinct thing of its own rather than an gigantic agglomeration of subsystems. The Inchoroi in general might be a brewing AI rebellion for all we know.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 17, 2017, 11:37:39 am
So, two things. Firstly, on other worlds, they just blasted the planet from orbit (according to Wutteat in WLW). They couldn't do that with Earwa due to the crash. So they needed another method, hence the NG.

Quote
"SUCH THINGS THAT I REMEMBER, CŪNUROI! TWISTING IN THE VOID FOR SAILING AGES! WATCHING MY MAKERS DESCEND AS LOCUSTS UPON WORLD AFTER WORLD, REDUCING EACH TO ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND—AND WAILING TO FIND THEMSELVES STILL DAMNED!"

Decending like locusts doesn't really signify to me that they were blasting things from orbit though.

Not to mention, Wutteät says, "MURDER! MURDER IS OUR SALVATION!"

It's my hunch that just dying isn't what the No-God "code flash" needs.  It needs murder and 'bloody' ones at that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Cuttlefish on July 17, 2017, 02:49:04 pm
The Consult Dunyain themselves explain that their goal lies not in the murder of the world, but in the art of it. Presumably, the only way to close off the world is through killing it with No-God, not just randomly massacring everything.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 17, 2017, 03:39:35 pm
The Consult Dunyain themselves explain that their goal lies not in the murder of the world, but in the art of it. Presumably, the only way to close off the world is through killing it with No-God, not just randomly massacring everything.

I read it a bit differently, but it's low information and highly interpretive.

To me, the keys are:
Active No-God (the code-flash must be read).
Deaths must come in some anguished way (that being the art).

While it's a bit of splitting hairs, I don't think that killing with the No-God is a key.  I think maybe the key is that the deaths are sufficiently anguished enough to allow the No-God to cypher them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 18, 2017, 01:32:50 am
Maybe the No-God destroys souls. That way, the Gods are starved, for if the people were killed by conventional ways their souls would just migrate to the Outside.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 18, 2017, 10:13:17 am
Maybe the No-God destroys souls. That way, the Gods are starved, for if the people were killed by conventional ways their souls would just migrate to the Outside.

Indeed, something like this must take place because we are told that the No-God "stops of the great cycle of souls" and that "the soul that encounters him goes no further." 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: themerchant on July 18, 2017, 10:31:42 am
Well Skathula tells Seswatha his lord has tasted celemonas soul, somewhere in the books. I'm sure i read it, somewhere sometime.

It was Skafra in the warrior prophet at the start of the book.

"our lord hath tasted thy kings passing..."
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 18, 2017, 11:35:38 am
Well Skathula tells Seswatha his lord has tasted celemonas soul, somewhere in the books. I'm sure i read it, somewhere sometime.

It was Skafra in the warrior prophet at the start of the book.

"our lord hath tasted thy kings passing..."

Indeed, whatever "tasting" could mean to a thing that presumably has no mouth.

I think it could plausibly mean that the code that flashed when "important" people die is brighter than some usual nobody.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Madness on July 19, 2017, 02:49:07 pm
On (off) topic because I definitely will have further thoughts for this thread post-read:

Wutteat also mentions the Black Heavens calling and there's the in-text supposition that "the soul that passes the No-God goes no further" (badly paraphrasing). I've definitely seem conjecture down that road suggesting that the No-God takes on all the souls of those killed while it's active.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: themerchant on July 20, 2017, 03:05:04 pm
Well it certainly "reads a code in them" in some fashion. or perhaps souls obscure the code, hence the need to remove so many of them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on July 21, 2017, 12:34:52 pm
Well it certainly "reads a code in them" in some fashion. or perhaps souls obscure the code, hence the need to remove so many of them.

Yeah, that part is quite unclear.  The way it is phrased makes me think it is something along the lines of a calculation that is successively approximated.  Each "flash" garners an inching toward the totality of the calculation.  At the point of 144,000 the calculation can be finally be solved, having gained enough variables and the output being calculable.

Or perhaps it is the reverse.  Each "code flash" gives a part of the answer and when 144k survivors are left, it can calculate the correct 144-thousand variable equation for that "solution."  Simple algebra really at that point, just solving for X (just 144,000 X, Y, Z's and so on).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: codebread on July 22, 2017, 03:24:51 am
No reason to think Nau-Cayuti was twin-souled though.

It's killing me because I can't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that someone else besides Kel was twin-souled. I vaguely remember something about the person hearing a second voice in their head... Ah well.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: MSJ on July 22, 2017, 03:44:24 am
No reason to think Nau-Cayuti was twin-souled though.

It's killing me because I can't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that someone else besides Kel was twin-souled. I vaguely remember something about the person hearing a second voice in their head... Ah well.

That would be Celmommas, Kelmommas's namesake and Nau-Cayuti's father.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: themerchant on July 22, 2017, 04:05:22 am
No reason to think Nau-Cayuti was twin-souled though.

It's killing me because I can't remember where I read it, but I recall reading that someone else besides Kel was twin-souled. I vaguely remember something about the person hearing a second voice in their head... Ah well.



Yeah in the Sagas it says something like Celmmommas great wail couldn't wake his brother from his blue slumber, then  how his dead brother quickened his intellect while making him cold.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Yellow on July 22, 2017, 08:53:12 am
On (off) topic because I definitely will have further thoughts for this thread post-read:

Wutteat also mentions the Black Heavens calling and there's the in-text supposition that "the soul that passes the No-God goes no further" (badly paraphrasing). I've definitely seem conjecture down that road suggesting that the No-God takes on all the souls of those killed while it's active.

I definitely agree with this. The soul that is the No-God blocks the passageway because it is stuck in the logical loop of only being able to experience itself whilst not understanding what it is experiencing (Subject and Object have become one, "WHAT AM I"). So all souls trying to enter or leave the world get stuck in the traffic jam and join in the Great Circle-Jerk of Mog-Pharau.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Simas Polchias on July 23, 2017, 01:18:51 pm
> WHAT AM I

CHIM ZERO SUM

sorry couldn't rezist
too disappointed after the book
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 04:39:51 am
On (off) topic because I definitely will have further thoughts for this thread post-read:

Wutteat also mentions the Black Heavens calling and there's the in-text supposition that "the soul that passes the No-God goes no further" (badly paraphrasing). I've definitely seem conjecture down that road suggesting that the No-God takes on all the souls of those killed while it's active.

Or maybe it's the Oblivion the Nonmen so desperately seek.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on August 01, 2017, 11:18:35 am
On (off) topic because I definitely will have further thoughts for this thread post-read:

Wutteat also mentions the Black Heavens calling and there's the in-text supposition that "the soul that passes the No-God goes no further" (badly paraphrasing). I've definitely seem conjecture down that road suggesting that the No-God takes on all the souls of those killed while it's active.

Or maybe it's the Oblivion the Nonmen so desperately seek.

I am sort of convinced based for shaky logic and flimsy evidence that Black Heaven literally refers to being trapped in the Sarcophagus (which happens to be black).  It is essentially like Oblivion, only somehow not.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:41:50 pm
We've given up on long-term speculation that the No-God is a Soul Hoover and functions as a Pocket-Outside?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 10, 2017, 04:34:37 am
Would be fitting if it replaces the Outside with one of its own where it's too stuck trying to figure out itself to judge anyone.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Khaine on August 10, 2017, 07:01:11 am
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Asmodeus van Yakshas on August 10, 2017, 09:23:00 am
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Well, they are at least able to shut the entrance with the No-God (entrance shut=no new souls=babies stillborn). So, logically it should also be possible to shut the exit when the souls go to the Outside.

Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 10, 2017, 09:59:43 am
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Khaine on August 10, 2017, 10:34:45 am
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on August 10, 2017, 10:56:49 am
Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.

If the description is true, there is a cycle of souls.

It wouldn't make much sense if it was a one out-one in scenario though, because then the population could never grow, which it certain can (and does).  I think the No-God must interface with basically every soul though, in some way, which is where the name "Mursiris" (Wicked North) comes from.  That feeling of dread, even when one cannot see the No-God.  I think that is the pull that it somehow has on souls.

Add to this how we are told that "the soul that encounters him goes no further."  So, I think it is plausible that the No-God covers both the exit and the entrance.

My best guess is because it somehow pulls them all to it and "devours" them.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Khaine on August 10, 2017, 10:59:27 am
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Well, they are at least able to shut the entrance with the No-God (entrance shut=no new souls=babies stillborn). So, logically it should also be possible to shut the exit when the souls go to the Outside.

Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.

What is the obsession with the 144,000 souls (apart from being an allusion to a certain Christian sect)?

Descending on a world with the aim to kill everybody to shut it from the Outside, is bound to cause a reaction and a fightback which can thwart your plans. These guys tried it with the Nomen, and they failed. They tried with the No god and they failed. Probably they will try it again in the third series and probably things will not go to plan.

So if the plan never really works, how do they know what they know?

It all goes back to my original suspicion that the Inchois and their Dunyain overlords have all lost the plot. They are trying the impossible in a desperate search to transcend a reality that simply cannot bow to mortal designs. The Outside is simply bigger than anyone and all efforts to control it or protect from it are bound to fail.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: H on August 10, 2017, 12:10:49 pm
What is the obsession with the 144,000 souls (apart from being an allusion to a certain Christian sect)?

Descending on a world with the aim to kill everybody to shut it from the Outside, is bound to cause a reaction and a fightback which can thwart your plans. These guys tried it with the Nomen, and they failed. They tried with the No god and they failed. Probably they will try it again in the third series and probably things will not go to plan.

So if the plan never really works, how do they know what they know?

It all goes back to my original suspicion that the Inchois and their Dunyain overlords have all lost the plot. They are trying the impossible in a desperate search to transcend a reality that simply cannot bow to mortal designs. The Outside is simply bigger than anyone and all efforts to control it or protect from it are bound to fail.

Well, with the Sarcophagus being a technology, I'd venture to guess that the 144k solution is a mathematical proof, or something similar.  Presumably some kind of storage matrix, or limit of extent over which it can exert it's effect.  It could be "known" to work via simulation, or simply a theoretical extrapolation.  Of course, they can't be 100% certain, but it sure would be better than nothing.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 10, 2017, 12:38:56 pm
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.


I can only assume their understanding of metaphysics has given the progenitors reason to believe that such a thing exists. At least some of their predictions have born out.

Plus, y'know, not much of a theme to the series otherwise.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Yellow on August 10, 2017, 03:15:45 pm
I keep misreading "Incu - Holoinas" as "Incu-Hollandaise". Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 11, 2017, 01:49:28 am
The dread might of the Inky-Häagendazs
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Khaine on August 11, 2017, 05:38:10 am
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.


I can only assume their understanding of metaphysics has given the progenitors reason to believe that such a thing exists. At least some of their predictions have born out.

Plus, y'know, not much of a theme to the series otherwise.

My reading is that all efforts to achieve the great themes of the series, such as pursuit of the Absolute, Salvation, following Heroic leaders, living and dying by the Book fail and quite possibly have always been in vain.

The Inchoroi drove themselves to extinction in their quest to reach salvation.

The Dunyain despite their efforts to master all circumstances, were destroyed by ancient aliens who used magic and genetically engineered beasts (two possibilities that the Logos could not predict) and then the last survivors of the Order succumbed to an even greater evil.

Kellhus despite his meta-gnosis and his infernal pact with Ajoklis is undone in the moment of his triumph. And we don't even know if his plan would have worked. In any case the TTT couldn't take him beyond the Golden Room. So even TTT fails and subsequently failed Kellhus.

Proyas lived his whole life trying to be pious, and we know how that turned out.

Achamian the scholar and the sceptic, despite his hatred for Kellhus in the end sort of believes that maybe the Aspect-Emperor had plan. But if Achamian was to find out what actually took place in the Golden Room his assessment for Kellhus could easily be revised to something negative again.

Esmenet the only person who may be holy, as per the Judging Eye, has given birth to a monstrous family and her husband was plotting to become the Avatar of the God of Deceit. It doesn't get more ironic than this.

All grand designs come to nothing, nothing goes according to plan.

I suspect that the Second Apocalypse, which I guess will the subject matter of the third series, will fail to seal off the world. Which then leads back to the original question, if no world was ever successfully shut, why do these crazy aliens keep attempting the same genocidal action every time? Isn't the definition of madness to keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome?

 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: The Sharmat on August 11, 2017, 06:32:51 am
Well for one thing they have reason to believe it does work, eventually, what with the blindness to the No-God.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: Khaine on August 11, 2017, 06:50:24 am
It would be cool to know how the whole extermination thing worked on other planets.

Did they use the No-God on other worlds?

Was the No-God something they invented specifically in Earwa?

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 11, 2017, 07:25:46 am
The Dunyain despite their efforts to master all circumstances, were destroyed by ancient aliens who used magic and genetically engineered beasts (two possibilities that the Logos could not predict) and then the last survivors of the Order succumbed to an even greater evil.
But they didn't succumb, they subsumed, and despite the means, the goal of shutting the world in itself is good, or can be argued to be good.