The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: SmilerLoki on July 25, 2017, 07:57:56 pm

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 25, 2017, 07:57:56 pm
Greetings to all! First time poster here.

After just finishing the series (but following it for quite some time) I should say I'm very satisfied   that, in my opinion, almost all serious metaphysical questions pertaining to the world of the Second Apocalypse found their answers. It took some thinking, but in the end I came up with explanations that work for me and, basically, require no other installments in the series to feel content. I would like to offer my views below. I would, of course, place them under a spoiler tag since they are all huge spoilers.

The main reason for me to post what is essentially my personal interpretations is to solicit thoughts and observations I may have missed in my reasoning. While some things do work as explanations for me, they can also seem a bit too complicated, even contrived. So I would like to hear what other people think about them. The Second Apocalypse is dense, and I'm also less acquainted than I would like with relevant pieces of information R. Scott Bakker gave outside of the series (it's really hard to find all of them). I do think I quite possibly missed something crucial somewhere and feel I may be mistaken in my assumptions, thus missing simple, elegant explanations of complex concepts. There are also some plot points (though not very significant in the grand scheme of things for me) that I'm not sure about.

I quite enjoy the inner workings of the Second Apocalypse and would like to better my understanding of the series. I apologize if my following post seems like a stream of consciousness, but I fear never actually completing editing it otherwise. Making personal notes easily readable for others is hard. Thank you in advance for reading (or at least attempting it)!

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: mostly.harmless on July 25, 2017, 08:52:00 pm
Welcome and great first post! A lot to digest here but I agree with a lot of it. Will respond more later :)

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 03:00:34 pm
Check out Interviews & Articles (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=34.0) and Further Curated Sayings of C'jara-Cinmoi (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.0). In case you are unaware, Bakker has often used C'jara-Cinmoi as his name on various forums, including here when we had an Author Q&A (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?board=33.0). This might help you get some first hand views of things you feel you might have missed.

Wow, that's a big first post :) . As I imagine there was plenty of time put into crafting it, so too must there be time spent in replying. I will find my way through it in due course!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Walter on July 26, 2017, 04:56:46 pm
I've always found the notion that the No-God was motivated by tactical concerns in the First Apocalypse to be suspect.  Not because of any doubt about those concern's soundness, mind.  I trust the Mandate's estimation of the tactical situation.  No, my gripe is that it doesn't seem sentient in a way that would allow it to understand such issues.

The point has been made a bunch that Kelmomas doesn't know what motivates him.  He is a repeater for the Darkness That Come Before.  I don't think being in the Object will change that.  He will do what his instincts bid him.  I think Nao Cauyuti was the same way.

Consequently, attributing motives such as a lack of Sranc to the No-God seems pointless to me.  I think it just does what it will do, full stop.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 26, 2017, 09:30:18 pm
Check out Interviews & Articles (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=34.0) and Further Curated Sayings of C'jara-Cinmoi (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.0). In case you are unaware, Bakker has often used C'jara-Cinmoi as his name on various forums, including here when we had an Author Q&A (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?board=33.0). This might help you get some first hand views of things you feel you might have missed.
Thank you for the links! I can say that I've read the entire Author Q&A section of this forum, and at least some of the interviews, but there is also Bakker's blog with comments on it (it's huge and only some of it pertains to the Second Apocalypse; obviously in no way is this a fault) and sites that no longer work. Considering interviews, they were always of secondary priority to me since they rarely are about the roots of metaphysics in the series, which is the topic that really ignites my interest.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 26, 2017, 11:33:38 pm
I've always found the notion that the No-God was motivated by tactical concerns in the First Apocalypse to be suspect.  Not because of any doubt about those concern's soundness, mind.  I trust the Mandate's estimation of the tactical situation.  No, my gripe is that it doesn't seem sentient in a way that would allow it to understand such issues.

The point has been made a bunch that Kelmomas doesn't know what motivates him.  He is a repeater for the Darkness That Come Before.  I don't think being in the Object will change that.  He will do what his instincts bid him.  I think Nao Cauyuti was the same way.

Consequently, attributing motives such as a lack of Sranc to the No-God seems pointless to me.  I think it just does what it will do, full stop.
I can see how all of this can very well be true. Thinking about it, I've come to some more observations and questions. I'm going to put them under a spoiler tag below.

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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 26, 2017, 11:58:10 pm
SmilerLoki: Regarding your last post;

Given the tactical way that the No-god uses the Sranc and Chorae against the Ordeal, I'd say it's quite definitive that it aware of cause and effect. If we believe Aurang and Skafra's comments and reactions, it also communicates quite cogently with it's ensouled worshippers.

A prosthesis is an artificial body part. Presumably, Tsuranmah is the part of the Ark used to control the weapon-races, subjugate Nospheres and depopulate worlds. A functioning sample of the Bios that links the Nosphere to the world is required - in this case it appears that only a creature containing both Nonman and Man bios (that can also apprehend the Onta - I'm going to assume that Nau-Cayuti was of the few) makes it work.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 12:08:12 am
SmilerLoki: Regarding your last post;

Given the tactical way that the No-god uses the Sranc and Chorae against the Ordeal, I'd say it's quite definitive that it aware of cause and effect.
Yes, I do believe it can use cause and effect. My point was, while being able to perceive cause and effect and manipulate it, the No-God does it in a fundamentally different way than conscious beings. So even while using cause and effect, the No-God is not aware of it, at least not in our sense of the word. Does this clarify anything?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 12:30:27 am
Fair enough. To me, understanding of cause and effect is a fundamental part of reasoning. It's my position that the way the No-god communicates with it's enemies is different from the way it communicates with it's servants who are extensions of itself.

It's repetitive questions spring from the fact that it denies subjective experience. It's unable to comprehend itself from an outside perspective, because it is opaque in a metaphysical sense. Rather than being unable to perceive itself, it cannot recognize itself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 12:46:29 am
Fair enough. To me, understanding of cause and effect is a fundamental part of reasoning.
The same with me. That's why I constantly question my reasoning about the Second Apocalypse; at least some of its workings seemingly contradict the stance expressed above. Do I misunderstand something? Is it a use of artistic license on Bakker's part, or a kind of study, a mental experiment concerning the nature of self and reason (if this is the case than even apparent severe contradictions to reality leading to a collapse of the narrative are not a negative result)? Is Bakker's stance on the matter just different from my own? I'm afraid I have no answers to these questions.

Rather than being unable to perceive itself, it cannot recognize itself.
I feel both of those explanations conform to the No-God's described behavior and also work in the framework of its metaphysical nature that I've outlined.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 01:19:31 am
Indeed. I feel like there must be some confusion between the levels of consciousness discussed here.

However, even introducing terms such as sentience and awareness might not bring clarity.
The No-god at first seems non-sentient, but it says via Skafra that it has tasted Celmomas' soul and is pleased, which indicates the ability to feel. Perhaps this is only because it processes such experience through the medium of the souls it consumes, it is unclear.

I would also point out the existence of animals that are able to reason and yet lack a sense of self. The implication of that is the developmental stage of consciousness that assumes other people are facsimilies of oneself i.e. a sense of being absolute within ones' own subjective experience.

Not really trying to make any point here btw, just trying to contribute food for thought.

edit: At any rate, here's a link to a great SEP paper on consciousness (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness) if you are really bored or really interested.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 01:29:39 am
Indeed. I feel like there must be some confusion between the levels of consciousness discussed here.
Very likely. It's also a problem with trying to understand the Second Apocalypse, since questions of consciousness are very important to the series, but there is no universal definition of consciousness.

The No-god at first seems non-sentient, but it says via Skafra that it has tasted Celmomas' soul and is pleased, which indicates the ability to feel. Perhaps this is only because it processes such experience through the medium of the souls it consumes, it is unclear.
Could you please direct me to this episode in the series? I now want to re-read it.

Not really trying to make any point here btw, just trying to contribute food for thought.
And I'm very grateful for it!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 01:35:08 am
Hmm, the Skafra comment is in one of Akka's dreams in TWP iirc. I'll try and get you a chapter and edit it into this comment.

edit: Haha, easy. Chapter One, and it's actually Nautzera dreaming and Akka dropping in to chat. Not quite as I remembered it, but;

Quote
"Our Lord," the dragon grated, "hath tasted thy king's passing, and he sayeth, 'It is done.'"
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 02:48:44 am
Thank you!

I think here the words of the dragon are so imprecise that a vast array of meanings can be attributed to them. Did the No-God really speak to him? Or was it more of a feeling belonging to a unified body of the Inchoroi creations the ruler of which is the No-God? It's entirely unclear in the same way that Kelmomas effect on the White-Luck Warrior (be it the first one or Sorweel) and the Gods was unclear. The true nature of the dragon's words is quite possibly deliberately concealed by the author to not give away crucial parts of the series easily.

I can't really derive any hard conclusions from it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 03:47:57 am
Well, to be fair that is the largest direct hint that the No-god is more than what his foes see. Obviously it is not conclusive, as you say.

There are a fair few other incidents where the servants of the No-god behave as though there this is the case. For instance, when Kellhus confronts Aurang-as-Esme and (probably bluffing) says he talks to the No-god and that He regards Aurang as a failure (or similar). Aurang's reaction to that suggests it hits a nerve.

Digression;
I think it's a brilliant touch that the No-god is literally a Black Box. It's becoming increasing likely in neuroscience that ignorance of how 'consciousness' itself functions is an integral part of its effectiveness in pattern recognition and decision making. The reason that neural networks are the heart of AI technology is because they operate as a black box. The problem that this raises is that it's impossible to prove they are not fallible.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 04:33:16 am
Well, to be fair that is the largest direct hint that the No-god is more than what his foes see.
It most certainly can be read this way.

For instance, when Kellhus confronts Aurang-as-Esme and (probably bluffing) says he talks to the No-god and that He regards Aurang as a failure (or similar). Aurang's reaction to that suggests it hits a nerve.
I understood that scene as Aurang being rattled by the fact that Kellhus talks to the No-God and not by the alleged contents of those conversations. I also think that Kellhus might be mistaken at that point in time.
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Digression;
I think it's a brilliant touch that the No-god is literally a Black Box.
I agree. The execution shines here. There are other inclusions of black boxes in fantasy, but the way Bakker has done it with the No-God is masterful. It invokes the sheer feeling of incomprehensibility. It was that feeling that got me into the series, actually.

It's becoming increasing likely in neuroscience that ignorance of how 'consciousness' itself functions is an integral part of its effectiveness in pattern recognition and decision making. The reason that neural networks are the heart of AI technology is because they operate as a black box. The problem that this raises is that it's impossible to prove they are not fallible.
There was a recent study on the subject of face recognition that seems to support the opposite, that the brain isn't a black box and its workings can be deciphered. It's outlined here:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/01/scientists-discover-how-the-brain-recognises-faces-by-reading-monkeys-minds
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 08:26:21 am
Yes, but why would Aurang be worried if the No-god doesn't ever say anything aside from the same phrases the Mandate hear?
(As ever, can't trust what Kellhus says, but it is the reaction that is important.)

My thought on it's repetitive questions is that they are analogous to echo-location. The no-god overrides the transmission band of the Outside and broadcasts existential questions that causes souls to resonate. Seems fair that if all men know the direction of the No-god, it in turn knows where people are and how many of them.

My rumination on consciousness as a black box was fairly obtuse and probably wrong, but thanks for the link.  :)

The article you link is very interesting, but the study itself concerns a common specific heuristic - enabled recognition of faces. In this case it seems 25 output nodes were identified and keyed to the output characteristics, enabling prediction of the result of neural activity rather than insight into the form of the function. It's definitely a step forward but I'm not sure it is really exposing the black box issue. But then, I am not an expert.

Here's another link on the subject (https://engineering.stanford.edu/news/finally-peek-inside-black-box-machine-learning-systems), if you're interested. A bit more on the machine side.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 09:14:06 am
Yes, but why would Aurang be worried if the No-god doesn't ever say anything aside from the same phrases the Mandate hear?
(As ever, can't trust what Kellhus says, but it is the reaction that is important.)
That's exactly what surprises him - that Kellhus might hear something new, something Aurang isn't aware of. Or that Kellhus is somehow connected to the No-God and can perceive it as its followers do, the mechanics of which are left unclear in the exchange. The No-God "speaking" in that scene might be literal or figurative even if Kellhus is actually being honest.

My thought on it's repetitive questions is that they are analogous to echo-location. The no-god overrides the transmission band of the Outside and broadcasts existential questions that causes souls to resonate. Seems fair that if all men know the direction of the No-god, it in turn knows where people are and how many of them.
Interesting thought! But people are aware of the No-God without hearing it. If this connection works both ways, then the No-God should be able to know where people are without speaking to them.

It's definitely a step forward but I'm not sure it is really exposing the black box issue. But then, I am not an expert.
Not in a comprehensive way, I'm inclined to say. It just reinforces my opinion that there is not enough information uncovered about the brain to come to conclusions. Many equivalent frameworks of reasoning about how it functions can be constructed; presently it's unclear how close any one of them is to the truth.

Here's another link on the subject (https://engineering.stanford.edu/news/finally-peek-inside-black-box-machine-learning-systems), if you're interested. A bit more on the machine side.
Thank you! It's unfortunate that my understanding of neural networks is rudimentary. I only read entry-level papers on them, and even those I failed to absorb completely. So many things to learn, so many new (not to mention old) inventions, but so little time, and such a small head...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Crtha on July 27, 2017, 09:42:39 am
That's exactly what surprises him - that Kellhus might hear something new, something Aurang isn't aware of. Or that Kellhus is somehow connected to the No-God and can perceive it as its followers do, the mechanics of which are left unclear in the exchange. The No-God "speaking" in that scene might be literal or figurative even if Kellhus is actually being honest.

True, true. Perhaps I'll remember some other scrap. Nevertheless.

Interesting thought! But people are aware of the No-God without hearing it. If this connection works both ways, then the No-God should be able to know where people are without speaking to them.

Yes that stands to reason. It talks to you inside your head or with the voice of the Horde only when you are in it's area of immanence, as it literally comes before you. My speculation is that it knows you completely (like a Dunyain) at that time and can mess more directly with your soul.

Not in a comprehensive way, I'm inclined to say. It just reinforces my opinion that there is not enough information uncovered about the brain to come to conclusions. Many equivalent frameworks of reasoning about how it functions can be constructed; presently it's unclear how close any one of them is to the truth.

Thank you! It's unfortunate that my understanding of neural networks is rudimentary. I only read entry-level papers on them, and even those I failed to absorb completely. So many things to learn, so many new (not to mention old) inventions, but so little time, and such a small head...

Totally agree. :D
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 11:01:15 am
It talks to you inside your head or with the voice of the Horde only when you are in it's area of immanence, as it literally comes before you. My speculation is that it knows you completely (like a Dunyain) at that time and can mess more directly with your soul.
It appears to me that the No-God's perception of reality is metaphysically quite important to the series.
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Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 01:34:58 pm
Again, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, SmilerLoki, and I apologize for the issues you had to surmount to post in the first place.

Two quick things as I'm less interested in figuring out these details than many other readers are (so do keep on ;)):

- I don't think the No-God nor the God ever talked to Kellhus. For my reading, Ajokli is solely responsible for the Visions.

- We're missing a crucial data-point in this discussion. I believe, in similar fashion to the aforementioned Skafra quote, Wutteat and, if I recall correctly, the Skin-Spy Tsuor impersonating Mimara when speaking with Sranc clans, both speak of "the Black Heaven calling," which denotes some unique internal experience. Just another loose seed Bakker's planted in TAE's arc.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 05:35:23 pm
btw, regarding spoilers:
Open spoilers in subforums up to and include the book they are named after. IE, in TUC subforum, open spoilers for all content including TUC. In TDTCB, only open spoilers for TDTCB.

General Earwa will be open spoiler for everything (like it normally is) after the release has been out for a few weeks.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 10:01:34 pm
Again, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, SmilerLoki, and I apologize for the issues you had to surmount to post in the first place.
Don't worry about it! I completely understand the problem that spammers present. I also don't think many people would have tried to register here with an e-mail on a Russian domain. It's unlikely the Second Apocalypse has many Russian fans (fortunately, it does have some), since someone managed to translate the title of "The Darkness That Comes Before" as "(The) Servants of The Dark Lord". This is not a joke.

- I don't think the No-God nor the God ever talked to Kellhus. For my reading, Ajokli is solely responsible for the Visions.
Right now I'm inclined to view this as by far the most likely possibility. It lacks only direct confirmation from Bakker.

- We're missing a crucial data-point in this discussion. I believe, in similar fashion to the aforementioned Skafra quote, Wutteat and, if I recall correctly, the Skin-Spy Tsuor impersonating Mimara when speaking with Sranc clans, both speak of "the Black Heaven calling," which denotes some unique internal experience. Just another loose seed Bakker's planted in TAE's arc.
I agree.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on July 27, 2017, 10:07:25 pm
btw, regarding spoilers:
Open spoilers in subforums up to and include the book they are named after. IE, in TUC subforum, open spoilers for all content including TUC. In TDTCB, only open spoilers for TDTCB.

General Earwa will be open spoiler for everything (like it normally is) after the release has been out for a few weeks.
Got it. I'm just overly cautious, because I know I would have spoiled everything for myself by just glancing at any discussion. I specifically refrained from visiting places with such discussions before I've read the book. But then again, I never was a regular there.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Madness on July 28, 2017, 07:13:10 pm
Again, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, SmilerLoki, and I apologize for the issues you had to surmount to post in the first place.
Don't worry about it! I completely understand the problem that spammers present. I also don't think many people would have tried to register here with an e-mail on a Russian domain. It's unlikely the Second Apocalypse has many Russian fans (fortunately, it does have some), since someone managed to translate the title of "The Darkness That Comes Before" as "(The) Servants of The Dark Lord". This is not a joke.

Lol, damn.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 04:28:49 am
Maybe the No-God is a channel through which whomever is controlling the Ark can control the weapon-races, and perhaps the physical location of the No-God itself, but NOT control its mind.  So it is confused, asking questions and such, but its motor functions are controlled by the Consult.  Specifically, it refused to take the field when the "good guys" had the Heron Spear.  They also managed to cover him up with a hologram of Kellhus.  How else could they do that unless they knew what he was gonna do?  And the Chorae Whirlwind was particularly Dunyain-ie, the complete opposite of when Kellhus would create a whirlwind(not THE Whirlwind, of course) of floating shit to block Chorae.

LOL just thought of this...a Guardians of the Galaxy remix:
 "Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order."

I think that just became my signature.  I love this site!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Madness on August 01, 2017, 12:25:17 pm
I think that just became my signature.  I love this site!

Well met, littlegrice 8). Love the choice of avatar, by the way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 01, 2017, 09:13:10 pm
I think that just became my signature.  I love this site!

Well met, littlegrice 8). Love the choice of avatar, by the way.

Why thank you, good sir. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 01, 2017, 09:28:33 pm
The No-God is the embodiment of the void/Absolute, the void that is "as death" described in Fanim scripture.

If subject and object collapse in it, that's simply because the void is the (groundless) ground of both, and as such prior to both. WHAT DO YOU SEE and TELL ME WHAT I AM is simply that void's hunger to be, to be something.

The darkness that comes before is this void, as precisely this primordial obscurity and source of all hungers. So the no-god is literally the "god" of materialism, the god of a Tekne-obsessed race: the Void itself, and Zizek says as much, that the prime axiom of materialism isn't some facile permutation of "dude atoms lmao" but that the first principle is nothingness.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 02, 2017, 06:35:35 am
The No-God is the embodiment of the void/Absolute, the void that is "as death" described in Fanim scripture.

If subject and object collapse in it, that's simply because the void is the (groundless) ground of both, and as such prior to both. WHAT DO YOU SEE and TELL ME WHAT I AM is simply that void's hunger to be, to be something.

The darkness that comes before is this void, as precisely this primordial obscurity and source of all hungers. So the no-god is literally the "god" of materialism, the god of a Tekne-obsessed race: the Void itself, and Zizek says as much, that the prime axiom of materialism isn't some facile permutation of "dude atoms lmao" but that the first principle is nothingness.
As I see it, unifying the darkness that comes before with the Absolute stands severely at odds with Dunyain philosophy.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Dunkelheit on August 02, 2017, 10:12:09 am
As I see it, unifying the darkness that comes before with the Absolute stands severely at odds with Dunyain philosophy.

I do too, but I don't think Dunyain philosophy is completely compatible with the Earwa as we know it. So some things needs to get prioritized over others. Kellhus seems to fokus on awareness and mastery, trying to make himself more like (or greater than) the gods. The the Mutilated focus more on the self-moving part, and dedicates themselves to making the self-moving soul (and self-moving universe?) even if this thing has no awareness whatsoever and makes them into servants rather than masters.

That's how I understand it. In the Q&A thread Bakker says that Kellhus goes for pure subjectivity, sapiens without cognition. While the Mutilated goes for pure objectivity, cognition without sapiens.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 02, 2017, 10:23:11 am
I'm presently considering it. I'm not yet ready to voice my views on the matter since many of them are unformed.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 10:10:25 pm
The Gods, anthropomorphism, and the No-God. So far the acting Gods in the series are exclusively human Gods. There are no Nonmen Gods that take action, no Inchoroi Gods, only human Gods. Let's consider this from the Outside perspective. The Gods are Eternal and everywhere, having no ontological limits, only intentional distinctions defining their nature. This means that any other, non-human Gods, should likewise be eternal and omnipresent. Yet there is no evidence of them. This leads me to think that the universe of the Second Apocalypse is entirely anthropomorphic. Only human existence is connected to the Gods, and they define each other through a kind of loop (the Gods exist forever and influence humans, humans worship the Gods that influenced them, giving rise to said Gods, then the Gods influence humans, and so on).

This is a bit hard to grasp. Humans have ontological perspective of things, while the Gods have Eternal perspective. Being created somewhere in the timeline, the Gods then exist for the whole of that timeline, ensuring their own creation. The Gods act without time restrictions, so every action they take was always taken, is always taken, and will be always taken. When the universe somehow changes without the knowledge of the Gods (say, by the No-God), the Gods instantly populate new timeline differently. It accounts for any changes made, and also accounts for their previous actions (for example, Sorweel wasn't the White-Luck Warrior v. 2.0 while the first Warrior wasn't thwarted by Kelmomas, but the first Warrior was thwarted, so Sorweel was always meant to supplant him now that Yatwer is aware of the first Warrior's failure, and this turn of events already is incorporated in the timeline; at the same time, the first Warrior always existed, and so from Yatwer's perspective always should have existed, even if doomed to fail) The No-God, then, represents a different timeline, the one where there is no Gods. Their connection to the world and humans is severed, the loop of that connection is collapsed, and in the wake of this collapse another context arises, on which the Gods have no bearing whatsoever since in that context they do not exist nor have ever existed. If the Gods and their worshippers represent the dichotomy of consciousness and unconsciousness, then the No-God creates a context of "non-consciousness", which renders the aforementioned dichotomy meaningless. Among other things, this makes me think that the "blessed one hundred forty-four thousand" wouldn't just live normal (if horrifically tortured) lives; some kind of metaphysical transformation would be forced upon them.

This also explains the No-God's effect on the Gods. His non-consciousness is beyond the context of their existence, and so they can't do anything about it, can't even directly comprehend the possibility of the No-God's existence. It lacks any kind of connection to the Gods that would allow them to interact with it or even perceive it. When the No-God acts, the Gods are indeed witless, robed of the ability to even comprehend the action taken. In this way, the No-God already is a seed of new metaphysical universe. Presumably, it needs more "parts" to fully "create" this new universe, and that's where the 144k come in. But the No-God can't use them if there are more people alive, since they are a part of the existing context, the "Gods context". So that context needs to be weakened.

That's roughly what I got for now.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 10:15:16 pm
Right, precisely, the Gods can't see the No-God because the No-God is THEIR darkness that comes before, ie the abyssal God of Gods pre-shattering, albeit in a "tekne babby's first absolute" kinda way
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 10:17:30 pm
Right, precisely, the Gods can't see the No-God because the No-God is THEIR darkness that comes before, ie the abyssal God of Gods pre-shattering, albeit in a "tekne babby's first absolute" kinda way
Yes, it ties in nicely.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 10:40:28 pm
And if we wanna go further, the disenchantment of Earwa by the No-God represents nothing but the modern disenchantment of reality by nihilism, technology, science, materialism, the belief that the root of everything is an empty godless nothing.

This seems obvious but what I'm getting at is the Inchoroi are not simply shutting Earwa off from the Outside but shutting it off from the very idea of an intelligence, an agency/mind behind existence, and in for Earwans the void is a small price to pay for a nature thoroughly spiritually castrated. Better nothing in the woods at night than demons, ghosts, witches.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 10:45:38 pm
This seems obvious but what I'm getting at is the Inchoroi are not simply shutting Earwa off from the Outside but shutting it off from the very idea of an intelligence, an agency/mind behind existence, and in for Earwans the void is a small price to pay for a nature thoroughly spiritually castrated. Better nothing in the woods at night than demons, ghosts, witches.
So far I see the same, and it sheds some light on the No-God's behavior, which is simultaneously rational to the point of being sapient, but completely lacking the sense of self, intentionality.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 10:57:21 pm
Because the No-God is the pure void of the subject, the de-substantialized nothing the subject becomes after you deny the existence of the soul, the primacy of consciousness, its privileged position in the universe, etc.

Sounds like I'm saying the opposite of what I just posted but this is what ties it together: the  materialist assertion (Badiou, Zizek, even mysterians like McGinn) believe the subject/consciousness fundamentally is this pre-ontological void. And what is literally the first in-universe quote in the entire series? Ajencis saying "the soul is that which precedes everything"

Boom.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 10:58:52 pm
I now wonder about how the No-God and Oblivion are related to each other.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 04, 2017, 11:05:08 pm
Imo the God of Gods is oblivion. Recall the line from Fanim scripture: "and it was as death"

It's just I think Mimara does see through something, idk, truly transcendent in that nothing while fedora tippers like the Inchoroi, Dunyain, etc. just can't reach that far
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 04, 2017, 11:07:38 pm
Imo the God of Gods is oblivion. Recall the line from Fanim scripture: "and it was as death"
There is logic in it, isn't it?

It's just I think Mimara does see through something, idk, truly transcendent in that nothing while fedora tippers like the Inchoroi, Dunyain, etc. just can't reach that far
The Judging Eye, I need to think more about.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 12:34:39 am
All Mimara saw was the black coffin, right?  is that significant, the fact that there was no judgement of the No-God?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 12:43:06 am
Well I'm talking about her seeing through her chorae, where oblivion peeled back to reveal a light. Did she really see the No-God with the JE?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 05, 2017, 12:45:37 am
All Mimara saw was the black coffin, right?  is that significant, the fact that there was no judgement of the No-God?
I'm not clear that that was all she saw, but her seeing nothing would make sense in the framework of the No-God having no intentionality. Sin comes from premeditation, and the No-God is completely ignorant without a sense of self.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 05, 2017, 12:46:30 am
Did she really see the No-God with the JE?
She did, at the very end of TUC, through the holographic Kellhus.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 12:48:26 am
Hmm well the No-God is pretty much a machine so it makes sense she'd see nothing. the aporetic sorcery inscribed in the chorae might offer a more "natural" route to what I'm just gonna call the True God from now on
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: The Sharmat on August 05, 2017, 12:58:46 am
Plus how can something be damned or saved if no divinity can see it to judge it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 01:08:08 am
The implication here is Mimara's True God is the one divinity that is not blind by definition, but turning the Judging Eye on the No-God would be like turning it on your car.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: The Sharmat on August 05, 2017, 01:26:58 am
What if my car is Christine by Stephen King.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 01:35:41 am
I know you're joking and I was gonna say sin depends on intentionality but that was thoroughly refuted by Ishual being soaked through with evil although no Dunyain has ever actually intended to inflict harm for harm's sake.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 01:37:44 am
The implication here is Mimara's True God is the one divinity that is not blind by definition, but turning the Judging Eye on the No-God would be like turning it on your car.

I can see that, but she looked at a Chorae, then THROUGH it, right?  Maybe, if she had had time, she could have done the same to the No-God? 

That whole scene with her and the Chorae fascinates me, and I remain confident that it will be a major piece of what comes next, either activating ALL of the Chorae in the Whirlwind, or using it to undo the No-God itself for good, with no chance of Resuption.  Kind of like a metaphysical adblocker, or anti-virus.  The Heron Spear quarantined it, but somebody's gotta do SOMETHING more permanent, because Earwa can win a thousand times over a million years, but the No-God must only win the once.

If you guys haven't noticed yet, I tend to ramble.  Apologies.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: MSJ on August 05, 2017, 03:13:29 am
Quote from:  Bazteck
The implication here is Mimara's True God is the one divinity that is not blind by definition, but turning the Judging Eye on the No-God would be like turning it on your car.

But, the carapace does have a soul within it. As i said elswhere, in Akka's true dreams, the one in the Fields of Mengedda the Heron Spear was never used. And, the No-God was killed and humanity saved. And, I think thats exactly what will happen this time. A special soul (Mimara anyone?) will do something to destroy the No-God. What? I have no clue, a couple guesses though.

1. She answers the No-Gods questions and it becomes aware

2. Something along the lines of what she did in Cil-Aujus with the chorae, but on a much laarger scale.

ETA: remember the No-God died, but the Consult recovered the carapace. So, however it was stopped was through the soul within the carapace.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: The Sharmat on August 05, 2017, 03:27:06 am
I know you're joking and I was gonna say sin depends on intentionality but that was thoroughly refuted by Ishual being soaked through with evil although no Dunyain has ever actually intended to inflict harm for harm's sake.
No but they intended to achieve the Absolute and become God, which is also apparently a damnable offense.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 03:45:01 am
Or perhaps what they did in pursuit of their goal was the damning part.  The path walked vs the goal and all that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 03:51:58 am
Wait true dreams no-god wasn't killed by the heron spear excuse me

It just never ends with bakker man.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: MSJ on August 05, 2017, 04:15:29 am
Baztek, when Akka becomes a Prophet of the Past, he has a dream where the Heron Spear isnt even fired and the No-God dies anyway.

And, i say these are true dreams, because we have the mutilated confirm Nayu-Cayuti and how he was just one of many thrown into the carapace and luckily, for the Consult he worked. This would seem, to me, to validate Akka's dreams. Along with many more that are true as for where he'lll find the Map to Ishual...Sauglish. These are the real events being shown to Akka. Thats my take anyway. As to who's behind them...im sticking with Seswatha.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: littlegrice on August 05, 2017, 04:24:18 am
Misinterpreting a dream is one thing, but actually SEEING something happen, and hear the words come out of people's mouths is another.  Achamian is clearly having dreams that are completely different than those experienced by the other Mandati, and trying to under-cut that my crying "misinterpreting" is a sleazy move.  I get it that Bakker is telling us not to 100% take everything Achamian deduces from the dreams as fact, but what he is seeing cannot really be argued with, unless there is a deeper deception.  It was another classic Bakker side-step.

And I still want to see Seswatha living inside Achamian in the Second Apocalypse, like the Dragon living inside Rand al'Thor at the end of the Wheel of time.  Two people, by really one person...and seeing has how I have hit on this before, could be perhaps see Achamian finally get some o' them Meta-Gnostic Cants with Seswatha backing him up?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: MSJ on August 05, 2017, 04:27:45 am
Quote from:  littlegrice
And I still want to see Seswatha living inside Achamian in the Second Apocalypse, like the Dragon living inside Rand al'Thor at the end of the Wheel of time.  Two people, by really one person...and seeing has how I have hit on this before, could be perhaps see Achamian finally get some o' them Meta-Gnostic Cants with Seswatha backing him up?

Besides knowing zilch about WoT, i couldnt agree more.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Baztek on August 05, 2017, 04:30:36 am
Think Akka will perfect magic somehow that'd fucking swell
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: MSJ on August 05, 2017, 04:38:07 am
Quote from:  Bazteck
Think Akka will perfect magic somehow that'd fucking swell.

? I dont understand this comment

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: The Sharmat on August 05, 2017, 05:32:49 am
Baztek, when Akka becomes a Prophet of the Past, he has a dream where the Heron Spear isnt even fired and the No-God dies anyway.
Where does this happen?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: MSJ on August 05, 2017, 05:56:46 am
Oh, i try and find it. Im sure of it though.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 05, 2017, 09:14:39 am
I know you're joking and I was gonna say sin depends on intentionality but that was thoroughly refuted by Ishual being soaked through with evil although no Dunyain has ever actually intended to inflict harm for harm's sake.
The fact of them not intending harm is irrelevant. They were inflicting suffering, they knew they were inflicting suffering, and they intended to do what they were doing. The harm caused could be a side effect for the Dunyain, but that doesn't stop damnation, which cares not about their greater goals.

The way Earwa works, they needed to be completely unaware of the ramifications of their actions, and they weren't, they just weren't considering those ramifications important. That's also what so horrifies Mimara, if memory serves.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: JRControl on August 05, 2017, 10:41:36 am
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'. Presumably that's how NG controls the weapon races. A one to many emulator or hypervisor in computer terms, aided by many CPUs in the Ark/Sarcophagus. So someone who is mentally flexible enough to be anyone who needs to be at the given time. A place you might say. Except Kellhus was corrupted by Ajokli for his own ends so the burden falls to Kelmomas who being twin-souled is blind to his own lack of a core identity. We have the slightest evidence of that by how he quickly (re)assumed the role as another member of big K's family and actually thwarted his assassination intentionally. This all reminds me of Peter Sellers actually who was quite strange and claimed to have no identity other than the roles he assumed for acting.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: H on August 07, 2017, 12:04:40 pm
Right, precisely, the Gods can't see the No-God because the No-God is THEIR darkness that comes before, ie the abyssal God of Gods pre-shattering, albeit in a "tekne babby's first absolute" kinda way

I felt it was something of the inverse, in the sense that the No-God is the darkness that comes after the gods.  Not that it really changes the end result.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Duskweaver on August 07, 2017, 01:19:16 pm
A couple things.

'Coming before' and 'coming after', when Bakker uses those terms, do not (generally) refer to chronological order, but to causality.

So, the No-God being "the darkness that comes before the Gods" doesn't really make sense unless you are claiming that the No-God is the Gods' subconscious. Which I don't think you were.

Also, 'intentionality', when Bakker uses that word, usually refers not to the desire to act, but to the philosophical quality that an act requires as a prerequisite for meaning.

So, "sin depends on intentionality" doesn't mean that you have to deliberately intend to do evil for your actions to be sinful. It just means your actions must have meaning.

Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: H on August 07, 2017, 01:28:41 pm
A couple things.

'Coming before' and 'coming after', when Bakker uses those terms, do not (generally) refer to chronological order, but to causality.

So, the No-God being "the darkness that comes before the Gods" doesn't really make sense unless you are claiming that the No-God is the Gods' subconscious. Which I don't think you were.

Also, 'intentionality', when Bakker uses that word, usually refers not to the desire to act, but to the philosophical quality that an act requires as a prerequisite for meaning.

So, "sin depends on intentionality" doesn't mean that you have to deliberately intend to do evil for your actions to be sinful. It just means your actions must have meaning.

Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.

Yeah and I think the whole issue of "witness" comes into play there too, going all the way back to the Darkness' Prologue and how there are no crimes if there is no one left alive.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 07, 2017, 01:31:24 pm
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: H on August 07, 2017, 01:34:59 pm
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.

Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 07, 2017, 01:46:30 pm
Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
It most certainly has significance.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Duskweaver on August 07, 2017, 01:51:33 pm
Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
Although the Death of Birth complicates this somewhat. It seems like, for normally-ensoulled-beings like humans, a soul is necessary not merely for personhood, but to live at all. When the No-God walks, children are not born as soulless robots, but as literal corpses.

Almost as though the World itself tries to create meaning, even as the Outside is gradually shut off, by making literal what is happening metaphysically.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 07, 2017, 01:59:02 pm
Although the Death of Birth complicates this somewhat. It seems like, for normally-ensoulled-beings like humans, a soul is necessary not merely for personhood, but to live at all. When the No-God walks, children are not born as soulless robots, but as literal corpses.
I think here we encounter the problem of not having any information about the next stage of System Operation, the one that happens when the population is reduced to the 144k souls.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Woden on August 07, 2017, 02:21:31 pm
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.

Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).

That makes me wonder if the Emwama have souls now. The are some kind of domestic pet humans now, breed only for obedience. Are they evolved into something less than human? And if so, have they lost their souls in the involution?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: Madness on August 08, 2017, 02:01:06 pm
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.

Specifically:

Quote from: Bakker (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/)
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: H on August 08, 2017, 02:04:52 pm
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.

Specifically:

Quote from: Bakker (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl486zk/)
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

Right, that was neat and means I was probably on the something with my theory in the The Inc-Holoinas (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2217.0) thread.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: dragharrow on November 13, 2018, 08:00:07 am
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.
Presumably that's how NG controls the weapon races. A one to many emulator or hypervisor in computer terms, aided by many CPUs in the Ark/Sarcophagus. So someone who is mentally flexible enough to be anyone who needs to be at the given time. A place you might say. Except Kellhus was corrupted by Ajokli for his own ends so the burden falls to Kelmomas who being twin-souled is blind to his own lack of a core identity. We have the slightest evidence of that by how he quickly (re)assumed the role as another member of big K's family and actually thwarted his assassination intentionally. This all reminds me of Peter Sellers actually who was quite strange and claimed to have no identity other than the roles he assumed for acting.

I don't think this follows. You're saying that Kellhus could have been the insertant if he hadn't died or been corrupted? I doubt that. My understanding was that only Kelmomas (of the available options) could have been the insertant - precisely because he was a twin.

The previous No God insertant was also a twin with a dead twin, just like Kelmomas. My understanding was that twins can essentially share a soul. The importance of that being that the soul can both be inside and outside at the same time. The exact metaphysical reason that that is important for the No God isn't clear. But my guess is that it allows the No God to interact/perceive both sides of the gate between the inside and outside. That allows it to follow the important metaphysical ticker tape somehow.

Quote from: madness
Specifically:
Quote from: bakker
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

Yeah I still don't know what exactly to make of this. Perfect quote though madness
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 13, 2018, 03:00:20 pm
The previous No God insertant was also a twin with a dead twin, just like Kelmomas. My understanding was that twins can essentially share a soul. The importance of that being that the soul can both be inside and outside at the same time. The exact metaphysical reason that that is important for the No God isn't clear. But my guess is that it allows the No God to interact/perceive both sides of the gate between the inside and outside. That allows it to follow the important metaphysical ticker tape somehow.
It was his father who had the dead twin, not Nau-Cayuti himself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: TaoHorror on November 13, 2018, 03:54:49 pm
The previous No God insertant was also a twin with a dead twin, just like Kelmomas. My understanding was that twins can essentially share a soul. The importance of that being that the soul can both be inside and outside at the same time. The exact metaphysical reason that that is important for the No God isn't clear. But my guess is that it allows the No God to interact/perceive both sides of the gate between the inside and outside. That allows it to follow the important metaphysical ticker tape somehow.
It was his father who had the dead twin, not Nau-Cayuti himself.

Yeah, but some cool thinking here on why Kel was a match to make TNG work. I think you're at least on to something with this, if not spot on in some way.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: dragharrow on November 14, 2018, 01:17:17 am
It was his father who had the dead twin, not Nau-Cayuti himself.

Wow, you're absolutely right. That is a huge misreading on my part. Damn.

Well that blows up my current understanding. I need to do a reread.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 28, 2018, 04:34:07 pm
I was thinking about twins lately, and I wonder if the possible Nonmen heritage of the Anasurimbor line (it's canonicity is in question; see the Rape of Omindalea debacle) is a factor for an Insertant. So far, Men and Nonmen are the only two intelligent races of Earwa that developed naturally.