The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 02:47:09 am

Title: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 02:47:09 am
Hello everyone. First of all I want to say that I am not new. This is not my first post. Many years have passed since my last participation in the forum... But now it's not The Three Seas forum... some moves have taken place, some migrations... WHAT DO I SEE? WHO ARE WE?
I'm Fanor and I've been reading the books for eight years now.
Yeah, the one who killed the Dunyain and Nonmen thread via Sheldrake, who asked about a sea mammal at the end of TJE (joke) and who posted a thread called "The heart", asking about the haloes and the heart Kellhus showed to the crowds in TWP (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=59.0 (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=59.0)).

The big question is:
Why, if the Consult was waiting for Kellhus to put him in the sarcophagus and activate the No God, I say, why try to kill him over and over again?
I re-read the scene with the Dunsult (Wizard of Oz? we already had the whirlwind...), Kellhus, Malowebi, Mekeritrig and Aurax (and then the Skin-spies and Kelmomas). It does not seem that they have everything controlled and that from the beginning they want to put Kelmomas in the sarcophagus; because if it were the case, why didn't they do it sooner? Why didn't they activate Mog Pharau once Kelmomas entered the Ark? And, if what they wanted was for Kellhus to become the No God, I go back to the initial question: Why do they try to kill him, not one, but many times? To recall only the last, we have Mekeritrig having the Ursranc throw him hundreds of Chorae arrows during the parley (previously he threw his weapons of light at him). Then we have the sun-spear directly impacting his wards, breaking them, several times; only teleportation saves him, and even allows him to shoot down a Horn with the spear (doesn' seem the perfect developement of the thousandfold thought of the Dunsult, either).
Finally Aurang does not pose a threat against him, but he also fights him. And in the golden room, Mekeritrig jumps on him, to attack him (also with no real threat, which causes him to be strangled).
In brief:
Well then, what was the intention of the Consult? Killing Kellhus or convincing him to enter the sarcophagus to achieve the Resumption? Either way there is no justification for their conduct in that final scene. If everything was a ruse how come they would know about Ajokli? If it wasnt, why not insert little Kel and just be done with it? If they wanted Kellhus in the sarcofhagus, why try so hard to kill him? Were they just improvising and things happenned that way by miraculous chance? (I leave the gods out since they can't see the No God)

Another matter:  I think the second son of Mimara and Achamian is born after the Resumption, and for that reason is born dead. Someone wrote that the birth was earlier ... but in sooth the No-God was already active; He/it had not been manifested yet, was shielding him/itself in the hologram of Kellhus to gain time with Horde 5.0, but the curse of the wombs had already begun.

Finally, I loved the books. I passed a week going to sleep at 5 a.m. (waking up at 9 to go to work) just to re-read TGO and read TUC. The meat got me.
But books don't come easyly to Mandos, that's why it took me so long to post something. That and the migration of the horde, I mean. I read then lots of threads of TUC trying to clarify some of the events of the book, check your crazy theories and laugh a bit. I did not find this question, though. Sorry if someone already post it and I just missed it.

Good to be here again.

Regards, from my dwelling in Mandos.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 29, 2017, 09:44:40 am
Hail Fanor.

My thought is simply that they did not want to activate the Object until Kellhus was dealt with, one way or another.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 12:30:30 pm
I think the matter can possibly be ascribed to uncertainty and needing to kill Kellhus regardless. It seems possible that, even given their intellect, the Mutilated haven't fully grasped the implementation of the Carapace. So their plan gave the greatest chance of achieving their goal.
- Kill Kellhus outside the Ark, The Ordeal breaks, we research more.
- Have Kellhus get inside the Carapace and become the No-God, winning.
             - Kellhus gets in and dies, we show The Ordeal, it breaks, we research more.
- Have Kellhus get inside, kill him, we try Kelmomas.

Had they simply thrown Kelmomas in ASAP, it presents the very real chance that Kellhus survives the fight and manages to slay it. Given he's a teleporting super-sorcerer with the ability to understand certain tekne artifacts at a glance. But should he either die outside the Ark, become the No-God, or die inside the Ark, few to none could manage. It wouldn't be a stretch (imo) to think the Mutilated had the backup plan of becoming immortal via the Tekne to find a more suitable host. I still find it unlikely that their discovery of Kelmomas was much more than a kind of a fluke. And we aren't sure their own understanding of what kind of subject was necessary.

As for the second child, I don't think it is clearly born after Resumption. All that time of hard travel and snorting dead Nonmen might have played a role in the child's situation. We don't actually know if the No-God was activated yet.

Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Duskweaver on August 29, 2017, 01:13:25 pm
I want Mimara's second child to have been the first victim of the second Death of Birth... but I also want Mimara looking upon the Carapace with the Judging Eye to be the event that completed the activation of the No-God and System Resumption. Those two things can't both be true, though. Or can they? Maybe an event so Reality-breaking as the birth of the No-God and the murder of meaning should arrive heralded by paradox?

That bit about "respecting the false Prophecies as well as the true" in whichever book it was keeps coming back to me. Seems like the Consult really wanted Mimara at Golgotterath for some reason.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 03:41:13 pm
Yeah, that sounds ok if Captain Hindsight, from South Park, says so. But they didn't know that, and they wanted the Celmomian prophecy to be fulfilled by an Anasurimbor. They needed Kellhus. Kellhus's death outside the Ark might be (without Kel) a defeat, unless they tried to find another Anasurimbor to start the Object (capture Kayutas). And they didn't know about Ajokli either. Things turned out very conviniently for the Dunsult, in th end. Superbly good to read, anyway, I don't complain about that.

I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 04:15:23 pm
Yeah, that sounds ok if Captain Hindsight, from South Park, says so. But they didn't know that, and they wanted the Celmomian prophecy to be fulfilled by an Anasurimbor. They needed Kellhus. Kellhus's death outside the Ark might be (without Kel) a defeat, unless they tried to find another Anasurimbor to start the Object (capture Kayutas). And they didn't know about Ajokli either. Things turned out very conviniently for the Dunsult, in th end. Superbly good to read, anyway, I don't complain about that.
I don't follow the hindsight comment. These are Dunyain, they plan for as many conceivable variables as possible. We know they didn't need Kellhus, as evidenced by the fact they used someone else. The contingency very well could have been to capture or breed his other children (dude had a lotta kids - Kayutas,  Serwa, Kelmomas, Inrilatas, Theliopa, The Survivor and his son. Not clear if they knew who was dead or alive, but at least some were clearly alive). Sure, they wanted Kellhus to be the No-God. But that doesn't mean they didn't plan for alternatives. Hence the fact they packed the room with a hundred skin-spies with Chorae. There's no question in turned out well for them, but it was also not Kellhus' best play given the result of his bargain put him in a vulnerable position to be possessed/defeated.

Quote
I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?
What I mean is, the scene narratively (from what I'm seeing online/recalling, since I don't have the book with me atm) was the both births happen, then they see holo-Kellhus on the Vigil. So the timeline isn't precisely clear that it was birth, Resumption, birth. It could have been birth, birth, Resumption. It seemingly could have gone either way.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 29, 2017, 04:23:22 pm
I wonder if the Mutilated might have been aware since the start that these supposed attempts on Kellhus' life were not likely to actually kill him. In fact, their goal may have been to get Kellhus to Golgotterath sooner to start Resumption. I don't think they originally planned on using anyone but Kellhus - Kelmomas was a last-minute change that happened to work. Of course, with the non-linear view of time and all that, Kelmomas had always been the No-God, but I believe the Mutilated just misinterpreted the Celmomian prophecy.
And, since Bakker mentioned in the AMA that putting Inrilatas in the Carapace would not have worked, it can't just be a matter of Anasrimbor blood. For all we know, if they had succeeded in inserting Kellhus it would not have worked either, same for Kaytas or Serwa.


I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?

The cause of the second twin's stillbirth seems to be unclear, since, like you said, it seems to happen before Resumption. Then again, I can't fully discard it as a possibility, as the timeline of events involving the No-God has more to it than it seems (thinking of Werthead's theory of a time paradox resolved by the Judging Eye).
It's possible, of course, that the second twin was stillborn because women with the Judging Eye supposedly have stillborn children (though that does not explain why the first twin lived).
There is also the mundane explanation of a premature birth, combined with the effects of qirri in fetal development, lack of proper nutrition, etc. (I don't think this was the case but had to mention it).
I believe the passage you're referring to is in TWLW, yes.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2017, 04:50:32 pm
I have believed that the 2nd baby was the first stillborn caused by the No-God walking. It makes sense. Why would one be born healthy and the other not? We have several instances of people telling Mimara she carries twins. So both were alive and healthy until that point. Its also foreshadowing that, indeed, TNG will walk.

Since, I don't buy into anything Bakker says in the AMA's and such (which isn't a dig on Bakker, I don't think he should show his hand at all.), the Baby Kellhus theory makes more and more sense. Especially combined with, "no questions about halos" we got from the Con. The halos were not related to Ajokli and the only other one with halos was Mimara. And we know she is holy, it simple deduction that says Kellhus is holy also.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2017, 05:26:12 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Fanor.

Love the avatar.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 05:35:19 pm
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

I dont have the book but I re-read that sequence yesterday: Its birth, Kellhus hologram descending, silence, wail, and the narrator tells the second birth was mercifully quick, Esmenet put away the blue baby (paraphrasing) and Achamian never knew about it. Ok, he didn't say when that second birth took place, but he describe it in that scene. I understood it took place then, but you can read that it had happened before.

EDIT: thanks Madness
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 05:51:29 pm
One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 06:00:28 pm
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

I dont have the book but I re-read that sequence yesterday: Its birth, Kellhus hologram descending, silence, wail, and the narrator tells the second birth was mercifully quick, Esmenet put away the blue baby (paraphrasing) and Achamian never knew about it. Ok, he didn't say when that second birth took place, but he describe it in that scene. I understood it took place then, but you can read that it had happened before.

EDIT: thanks Madness
  No, I don't think they expected Ajokli I doubt they necessarily expected to find Kelmomas either. But still, I think the idea that they would have preferred to kill Kellhus and use another Anasurimbor is plenty fitting, if they could. It would have still fit with the Celmoman prophecy.



As for the scene, so I'm looking at it right now on Chapter 19.
Achamian is sitting on the corpse of a Bashrag, thinking about the fact he has a son from the first birth.
The Quya attack the Scranc in the Canal, slaughtering them.
"It flees!" some Longbeard cried from the parapets above. "The Horde! Fleeeeees!"
Bunch of dudes are all cheering.
It mentions the second birth being mercifully quick and that Achamian would never know what became of it, the dead twin. How Esmenet gets rid of it.
Achamian gets off the dead Bashrag and sits on the thing's head.

Section break.

Describes the scene again with the fallen horn. Nansur Columnaries and Eumarnan Grandees watching Scranc fleeing.
General Inrilil ab Cinganjehoi yelling how the Soulless bolt from the wrath of the Souled.
Notes how many (more than a million) corpses are around.
"Then the keen-eyed spied Him, and jousting cheers became a tempest of ecstasy and adulation. The Holy Aspect-Emperor stood upon the Vigil, high on theon theward face of the surviving Horn."
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 06:10:32 pm
If you do have the book, there is nothing to say. I was speaking by memory.
A friend of mine borrowed it (and there is another waiting in line), so it will be a time until I can check it again.
EDIT: Anyway, when the horde flees, it means that Resumption took place, IMO. Second birth could have been just then.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 29, 2017, 06:39:51 pm
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

Well, I agree that they don't foresee everything, and that they certainly didn't expect Ajokli's interference. I still think they could realize Kellhus had a decent chance of surviving long enough to get into the Golden Room (by himself).


One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?

Didn't that happened before she even gave birth to the first baby, though? Or am I misremembering?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 06:52:27 pm
If you do have the book, there is nothing to say. I was speaking by memory.
A friend of mine borrowed it (and there is another waiting in line), so it will be a time until I can check it again.
EDIT: Anyway, when the horde flees, it means that Resumption took place, IMO. Second birth could have been just then.
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Again, the Resumption and stillbirth could be related. They could also be unrelated with a different sequence. Either seems quite likely to me.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 29, 2017, 06:54:22 pm
I wonder if the Mutilated might have been aware since the start that these supposed attempts on Kellhus' life were not likely to actually kill him. In fact, their goal may have been to get Kellhus to Golgotterath sooner to start Resumption. I don't think they originally planned on using anyone but Kellhus - Kelmomas was a last-minute change that happened to work. Of course, with the non-linear view of time and all that, Kelmomas had always been the No-God, but I believe the Mutilated just misinterpreted the Celmomian prophecy.
And, since Bakker mentioned in the AMA that putting Inrilatas in the Carapace would not have worked, it can't just be a matter of Anasrimbor blood. For all we know, if they had succeeded in inserting Kellhus it would not have worked either, same for Kaytas or Serwa.


I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?

The cause of the second twin's stillbirth seems to be unclear, since, like you said, it seems to happen before Resumption. Then again, I can't fully discard it as a possibility, as the timeline of events involving the No-God has more to it than it seems (thinking of Werthead's theory of a time paradox resolved by the Judging Eye).
It's possible, of course, that the second twin was stillborn because women with the Judging Eye supposedly have stillborn children (though that does not explain why the first twin lived).
There is also the mundane explanation of a premature birth, combined with the effects of qirri in fetal development, lack of proper nutrition, etc. (I don't think this was the case but had to mention it).
I believe the passage you're referring to is in TWLW, yes.
I thought the Judging Eye was related to one particular unborn soul and according to this Mimara should've lost the ability after the twins' birth. I can't remember if she actually does lose it though.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 06:55:59 pm
One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?

Didn't that happened before she even gave birth to the first baby, though? Or am I misremembering?
Yes, still pregnant with both babies. Thats the reason of my reasoning.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 06:59:59 pm
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 07:06:21 pm
The Boding clearly begins after both births, not before.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 07:13:12 pm
The Boding clearly begins after both births, not before.
Source, please?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 07:18:32 pm
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 07:25:13 pm
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
But in Golgotterath, defending the Ark, it seems impossible to me that Sranc flee, unless the No God is activating their swarm-brains, prepairing the choir to speak en masse.

Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 07:35:07 pm
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
But in Golgotterath, defending the Ark, it seems impossible to me that Sranc flee, unless the No God is activating their swarm-brains, prepairing the choir to speak en masse.
Sranc can only really be corralled, kind of the reason they have Yoke Legions and why the No-God's control of them is ideal. They're a gibbering, nearly unthinking mass otherwise. I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Walter on August 29, 2017, 07:35:48 pm
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 07:41:34 pm
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.
Yes, but I think it was the other way around. He did his Kellhus act to give time to the Horde to reset their swarm-brains.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 07:48:39 pm
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 07:50:47 pm
I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
Indeed. It's kinda hard to give a quote, since it would require me to post a significant chunk of the book, which I don't consider proper. I also do agree it's not conclusive, just something to take into account.

There is also this answer (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg35988#msg35988) from Bakker:
Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life.
It implies the No-God needed time to start operating at capacity, which should impact its abilities, the Death of Birth and Horde-controlling among them.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 07:51:44 pm
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.
The Horde is like a swarm, it just takes enough retreating on the front to trigger a chain reaction. This is the very reason the original one continued to retreat, because those at the fore were driving the others, despite their massive numbers. Again, more than a million dead? That's pretty staggering.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 07:56:48 pm
It implies the No-God needed time to start operating at capacity, which should impact its abilities, the Death of Birth and Horde-controlling among them.
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 07:59:41 pm
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
I mean, we don't know how did it work precisely, so I note this fact. Maybe the Boding is harder, maybe the Horde-controlling, maybe other things, maybe everything combined. It can go every way, there is no further evidence to support a particular theory.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 08:08:34 pm
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
I mean, we don't know how did it work precisely, so I note this fact. Maybe the Boding is harder, maybe the Horde-controlling, maybe other things, maybe everything combined. It can go every way, there is no further evidence to support a particular theory.
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or those we like the most.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 08:15:56 pm
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or whay we like the most.
I apologize if I came off as criticizing you, I really wasn't! I only voiced my thoughts on the matter in a somewhat utilitarian manner.

Returning to topic, I also think there is not much to go by even for conjectures. A lot of interpretations can be proposed, but none can be definitively proven. Or even considered likely, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 08:20:30 pm
That's why I'm not assertive; we speak about conjectures, discard some and choose the likeliest, or whay we like the most.
I apologize if I came off as criticizing you, I really wasn't! I only voiced my thoughts on the matter in a somewhat utilitarian manner.

Returning to topic, I also think there is not much to go by even for conjectures. A lot of interpretations can be proposed, but none can be definitively proven. Or even considered likely, unfortunately.
Don't mention it!
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 08:31:14 pm
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 08:41:36 pm
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.
But we're talking about the Ark! Not a strategy to better maim the Ordeal in the long journey. And the swarm movement and silence is really indicating something is going on. The No God, no less. Even Bakker (quote someone brought here) says that the hologram was for the Horde to reload or something like that.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 09:34:46 pm
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I think their behavior proves otherwise, as noted. The Horde flees for nearly the entire Istyuli Plain. If they never had an inclination to flee, they would have all rushed for the Ordeal in the first place.

And they were winning until the Quya reassert in the Canal where they can effectively wipe them out. Long sweepings of metagnostic sundering from Kellhus, a horn dropped on them, the spearman threat gone, an Inchoroi defeated, and the Quya figuring things out - things tipped against them.
But we're talking about the Ark! Not a strategy to better maim the Ordeal in the long journey. And the swarm movement and silence is really indicating something is going on. The No God, no less. Even Bakker (quote someone brought here) says that the hologram was for the Horde to reload or something like that.
We're also talking about Sranc. Not Ursranc, not Inversi, but soulless beasts barely above animals. Also, the quote was (imo) in relation to ensuring the No-God wasn't destroyed by the Ordeal more than anything else.

"Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life."

The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 29, 2017, 09:37:28 pm
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Again, before I read this thread ( or any of the forum until I finished TUC ), I "read"/thought that the Mutilated was in the head scratching phase of trying to figure out how to get the thing to work. I "felt" they were uncertain of Kellhus; hence, tried multiple times to kill him before he reached them ( competing probability trances, if you will - sorta like Herbert's treatment of the Guild's inability to see the future when in the presence of another clairvoyant ). Once he strode on in with little resistance from what was considered quite the powerful defense/creatures, their probability trance ( panic? ) let them to try to "turn" him, the cats with the chorae providing "incentive" for him to cooperate; but, maybe not since they didn't hesitate to kill him when they were freed up by Kel ( via "chasing" off Horned brother ) - bit hazy on this - not sure the arrival of the 4 Horn confused the "plan" and one spy reacted or if they were trying to kill him once they arrived. I think they quickly realized Kel could make the thing work when they heard him say the gods couldn't see him - marking him as no-god material.

I only bring these points up as they were my initial take on things - which is important not to lose our first impressions, they could be the most correct. While I love chewing the fat with you fine chaps, "studying" the work can lead us astray if we're not careful. We're discussing outside the initial read which is full of richness ( suspense/momentum/context - we're in the throws of the story ). I think Bakker intended some obfuscation here to add to the mania of what was happening. All in essentially a single, brief scene we have Kellhus goes salt, Serwa comes out nearly/completely ruined from a fight that appears accomplished nothing, twin births ( one dead ) ... and the small matter of the arrival of Mog. The speed of these final events denote confusion, by design I think.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 29, 2017, 09:55:50 pm
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 29, 2017, 10:01:01 pm
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...

Everything did go by very fast at the end. There seems to be evidence supporting both possibilities, though (I doubt we will ever know what exactly caused the stillbirth).
The Judging Eye causing the second baby to be stillborn makes sense from what little we know of it (how I wish we had just some more information about it). On the other hand, it's possible that the Boding isn't an instantaneous phenomenon and that the No-God's awakening caused the stillbirth (and then it spread shortly afterward, starting the Years of the Crib 2.0).
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 29, 2017, 10:05:53 pm
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Nah the Oar is surely the No-God, being an extension of the Ark's will.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 29, 2017, 10:25:15 pm
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 11:17:43 pm
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
I agree. Oars are referred to as (driving) parts of the Ark, the No-God is the prosthesis of the Ark at a time when its original Oars are no longer operational. Considering the terms given in the narrative, it's hard to ascribe the word another meaning.

The Horde of the No-God is never referred to as the Oar, and it was talked about in the narrative for ages.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 29, 2017, 11:58:55 pm
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...



She did? Oops, sorry! I thought she "got it" during the Slog ( after the consummation ). If that's the case, clearly you're correct, she sported the Eye before, then why not after the pregnancy.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 30, 2017, 12:34:53 am
My initial "take" on what was going on when reading the end of TUC is the stillborn was due to her having the Eye - but then it appears she still "has" it after the births, so I was simply confused about the relationship between the Judging Eye and dead fetus in the womb - either that's true and something more/else is providing Mimira with the Eye or it's wholesale incorrect. I find the No-God "causing" the death of one of the twins to be quite the cool speculation, but to me it's unclear the timing of events given how briefly the book treats this. Everything happened so quickly once Kel was in the carapace.

Since Mimara had the Judging Eye years before she was even pregnant due to time being perceived differently by the gods, what is so strange about her still having it after giving birth? Makes sense to me...



She did? Oops, sorry! I thought she "got it" during the Slog ( after the consummation ). If that's the case, clearly you're correct, she sported the Eye before, then why not after the pregnancy.
Damn I thought/misremembered that too, but apparently she always had it.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 30, 2017, 12:44:35 am
The Oar assumedly meaning the No-God. Seeing as it lacked chorae that one protected it until the Chorae Horde Shroud Whirlwind arose.
The Oar assumedly meaning the swarm-choirtalking-horde.
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
Didn't get it that way. It sounds logical. But then again, it's Bakker the Deciever we're dealing with...
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 30, 2017, 01:17:05 am
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Fanor on August 30, 2017, 03:29:23 am
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Hm... Since TDTCB I percieved the No God's questions as coming from a lost mind... someone utterly helpless, trapped within that object (now we know that there is a fusion subject-object), truly wanting to know who he was. It's like Nau Cayuti's mind was erased, brainwashed, since System Initiation, and acts like someone with amnesia. That implies a big dissociation between Mog Pharau's actions (including the Boding) and his utterances, though. I hope Scotty show us the whole thing in the NG series.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Frail on August 30, 2017, 03:50:08 am
I dont really understand why little Kel would betray his father after giving himself over to him and slaying Sorweel. He begs and would prove anything for him. I don't buy the idea of him then turning over to the dark side so to speak especially without a POV chapter.

What I got from it was a skin spy basically says, "OK dont come out and distract Kellhus until AFTER he gets possessed by a literal God."

However if Kelmomas was being held hostage by a skin spy in a separate room, and then Kellhus/Ajokli pins all of the skin spies to the floor by their chorae (releasing Kelmomas), I would like a sentence or two at least of him being in awe or curiously drawn towards this event and then stumbling into his fathers presence.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 30, 2017, 04:07:52 am
Quote
See! the child gurgled, squealing for preposterous joy. I told you! I told you! They cant see me! The Gods! The Gods cant see me!

Kelmomas has clearly been interviewed by the Mutilated extensively and held back for this eventuality.

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.

Also, the Boding is clearly a contraction of 'foreboding' referring to the directional existential dread projected from the Black Heaven.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Frail on August 30, 2017, 04:32:51 am
he wasnt interviewed extensively. he most likely couldn't even enter the ark until after the horn toppled, due to the massive battle. he also was probably carried up until the final moments before arriving near the throne room. like i said he was being held down by a skin spy until after kellhus/godtime which is where he hears his father and wants to exclaim his excitement
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 30, 2017, 05:10:46 am
No, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. I am also permitted to share mine. Thank you.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 30, 2017, 05:24:08 am
Quote
See! the child gurgled, squealing for preposterous joy. I told you! I told you! They cant see me! The Gods! The Gods cant see me!

Kelmomas has clearly been interviewed by the Mutilated extensively and held back for this eventuality.
I do think this quote very likely indicates some sort of a previous interaction between Kelmomas and the Mutilated, which means they could've incorporated him in their plans.

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.
The Horde of the No-God is generally referred to as the Horde of the No-God (actually, has another name ever been used?). The Oars, on the other hand, are alluded to as being parts of the Ark. For example, here:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Fourteen, "Golgotterath"
The Horns reared impossible, commanding all, the two great Oars of the Ark goring the belly of the sky.

Also, the Boding is clearly a contraction of 'foreboding' referring to the directional existential dread projected from the Black Heaven.
Yes, of course. But this phenomenon is almost universally collated with the Death of Birth in the narrative.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Hiro on August 30, 2017, 10:49:43 am

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.
The Horde of the No-God is generally referred to as the Horde of the No-God (actually, has another name ever been used?). The Oars, on the other hand, are alluded to as being parts of the Ark. For example, here:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Fourteen, "Golgotterath"
The Horns reared impossible, commanding all, the two great Oars of the Ark goring the belly of the sky.



Yes, the Oars referred to the Horns. Perhaps, probably, it took more time for the Carapace to power up, since one half of the Oars was missing. That seems like a partial explanation of the hologram, as well as the retreating Sranc.

Regarding the Sranc, I find the withdrawal, orderly as it is, a distinct signal of the coming of the No-God. The timing puts it right in the sequence of Resumption, it could also serve as a false signal to the Ordeal, keeping them close to the Ark while the hologram fools them, in order for the Ordeal to be annihilated afterwards.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 30, 2017, 12:43:43 pm
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Eh, his actions so far (destroying the remains of the Great Ordeal and schools) haven't inspired much hope there. But the questions as the same as the ones seen in the prior dreams. To me that would imply that Kelmomas has very much lost his individual agency and is now the semi-witless killing extension of the Ark.


Honestly, in regards to whether or not the sequence of events (the retreat, the stillbirth) are meant to be signs of the No-God having awoken, I'd ultimately say it was intentionally vague. Given he doesn't give the 'big reveal' until the height of suspense as Mimara wanders up to the hologram.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Frail on August 30, 2017, 02:11:34 pm
No, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. I am also permitted to share mine. Thank you.
I still stick by mine because I'm not sure Kelmomas would backstab his father after changing his tune.
POV>Conjecture
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 30, 2017, 03:02:43 pm
he wasnt interviewed extensively. he most likely couldn't even enter the ark until after the horn toppled, due to the massive battle. he also was probably carried up until the final moments before arriving near the throne room. like i said he was being held down by a skin spy until after kellhus/godtime which is where he hears his father and wants to exclaim his excitement
I don't think the battle would have been an issue. I don't remember when the scene occurs where the skin-spy takes him in (whether the battle was organizing or in full swing). However, we know from prior events (from what I recall of the Nau-Cayuti dream where Seswatha and he break into the Ark) that there are other subterranean entrances to the Ark. As well as the vast passages previously excavated to encircle the first Ordeal. He very well could have entered earlier on.

Now, given when he was likely brought in not long before the events that followed, I doubt there was time an extensive interview. But given his words 'I told you, I told you!', well, it seemed very likely the Mutilated at least somewhat interviewed him. I don't think the claim (POV>conjecture) holds much wait because you are interpreting events (whether or not he was able to get into the Ark earlier and the tone of his statements) based on context more than anything.

And really, even before, Kelmomas never had loyalty to his father. It was explicitly a ploy to avoid being killed (from what I recall). That he was trying to be useful. The scene where Kellhus admonishes him seems like a big enough turning point.
- Despairs his father is probably sealed.
- Escapes with his mother's help and flees, having given up hope.
- Finds a new mom look-a-like, wow, what luck!
- Finds a bunch of people (The Mutilated) that he would be able to identify as Dunyain.
- Seeing as he knows what the Consult is (pretty sure), could reason joining them is the best bet to beating father and securing his mother.


Sorry for not adding this in my prior post, didn't notice the side discussion outside whether or not Kelmomas has agency within the Carapace.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 30, 2017, 03:03:44 pm
There's more evidence Kel was "with" the Mutilated in some sense ( didn't just stumble into the room ), paraphrasing, Kel realized he replaced 1 tyrant for 4, when he was put into the carapace.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Frail on August 30, 2017, 03:37:21 pm
That would still mean they prepared Kelmomas to come out at the precise moment meant they knew a God would inhabit Kellhus. Seems too convenient of a moment.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 30, 2017, 04:00:46 pm
Thanks Tao, I forgot about that line. Added in the idea that he was betraying Kellhus.

That would still mean they prepared Kelmomas to come out at the precise moment meant they knew a God would inhabit Kellhus. Seems too convenient of a moment.
Well, there are a couple likely possibilities to me. But the most likely would be the Mutilated were already planning contingencies. I noted this before as the 'why they were willing to try and kill Kellhus before' thing. It seemed apparent they were willing to try other Anasurimbors for the sake of the prophecy. They had Kelmomas around ready to throw in if Kellhus refused.

The likely idea being he was released either to distract Kellhus in general or perhaps Kelmomas said 'hey, I have unerring grace, I might be able to help kill my dad' and they gave it a shot alongside their 100 chorae skinspies.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Duskweaver on August 30, 2017, 04:17:17 pm
We know from the EG that Kellhus had been observed wandering around on Mengedda, swapping heads with his Decapitants, so it's quite possible the Mutilated had some inkling of his pact with Ajokli.

The Mutilated seemed entirely too keen to engage Kellhus in conversation. A superficial interpretation would be that they were behaving more like Bond villains than Dunyain, expositing for the benefit of the reader. Words are weapons to the Dunyain, though, which means they were gabbing on like that for a reason. Maybe they were keeping Kellhus occupied until Kelmomas was in position? Maybe that whole bit about wanting Kellhus to become the No-God was misdirection on their part?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 30, 2017, 04:29:12 pm
Sounds way too far fetched imo. I believe they clearly believed Kellhus to be the No-God, and Kel's short-circuiting of the manifested God was a fortuitous event. This kinda brings me back to the thing where Kellhus says to Proyas that at some point the Inchoroi must win. It seems that by virtue of being outside of Eternity, the No-God is causally fated to manifest and succeed.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2017, 05:19:36 pm
I actually think Kelmomas arrives in the Golden Room when the Skin-Spies start creeping up - The Golden Room which, hot fucking damn, is a goddamn sorceress labyrinth far exceeding the Thousand Halls or Nonman Room of Endless Ingress or whatever.

Kelmomas just happens to arrive with the Esmenet Skin-Spy at that point and he's talking to Samarmas when he talks about figuring out that the Gods can't see him.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 30, 2017, 08:19:23 pm
You really think the Mutilated let an Anasrimbor (even an eight year old one) run around the heart of the Ark doing whatever he wants? Wow.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 30, 2017, 09:00:29 pm
I actually think Kelmomas arrives in the Golden Room when the Skin-Spies start creeping up - The Golden Room which, hot fucking damn, is a goddamn sorceress labyrinth far exceeding the Thousand Halls or Nonman Room of Endless Ingress or whatever.

Kelmomas just happens to arrive with the Esmenet Skin-Spy at that point and he's talking to Samarmas when he talks about figuring out that the Gods can't see him.

I agree with this, it's unlikely he had time to be interviewed by the Mutilated at all, even with the actual timeline of events being uncertain at some points.


You really think the Mutilated let an Anasrimbor (even an eight year old one) run around the heart of the Ark doing whatever he wants? Wow.

One more reason to think he wasn't there for that long. Released himself from the chains, met with the skin-spy, went into the Ark, maybe stopped for a while to hit Serwa with that 100th Chorae (just a theory, but not unproven either), reached the Golden Room.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 30, 2017, 09:07:29 pm
Ooooh, Thelli - I love your thinking! I think you're right, Kel was the 100th Chorae ( Serwa didn't make a mistake ).
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: gtownwr on August 30, 2017, 09:39:22 pm
Why? The No-God was called the prosthesis of the Ark. Oar for the Ark. Seems pretty clear.
I agree. Oars are referred to as (driving) parts of the Ark, the No-God is the prosthesis of the Ark at a time when its original Oars are no longer operational. Considering the terms given in the narrative, it's hard to ascribe the word another meaning.

The Horde of the No-God is never referred to as the Oar, and it was talked about in the narrative for ages.

I agree that the Oar is referring to the No-God, but its pretty aggravating that even when answering questions, RSB answers using a term that has never been applied to anything else in the book and so causes more confusion.  I know he is all into philosophy and uncertainty, but his tendency to be unable to even answer a straightforward question in a straightforward many has frustrated me several times.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 30, 2017, 09:46:00 pm
Yep, just wandered in through the endless tunnels, caught the elevator up 100 floors (pausing to kill his sister in the midst of combat ofc), straight to the golden room where a skin spy receptionist says, "The Consult are I'm a meeting, you'll have to wait." But no, just use eye beams to disintergrate that, waltz in and cause havoc. Mutilated are all like "wtf, skin spy 10056, you could have let us know. Lol, nvm, this is how conditioned ground works of course Lolol. 12D benjuka, Winning!"

All clear to me now, thanks.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 30, 2017, 09:47:48 pm
I agree that the Oar is referring to the No-God, but its pretty aggravating that even when answering questions, RSB answers using a term that has never been applied to anything else in the book and so causes more confusion.  I know he is all into philosophy and uncertainty, but his tendency to be unable to even answer a straightforward question in a straightforward many has frustrated me several times.
I actually think here he answered in a way that was completely obvious to him, but forgot it isn't to us.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: gtownwr on August 30, 2017, 09:53:57 pm
I agree that the Oar is referring to the No-God, but its pretty aggravating that even when answering questions, RSB answers using a term that has never been applied to anything else in the book and so causes more confusion.  I know he is all into philosophy and uncertainty, but his tendency to be unable to even answer a straightforward question in a straightforward many has frustrated me several times.
I actually think here he answered in a way that was completely obvious to him, but forgot it isn't to us.

Definitely possible, but if so, that happens A LOT.  It is a weakness of the series in my opinion that a significant portion ("a fraction") of what you need to piece certain plot points together is reliant on extra-textual things.  One of the ONLY weaknesses, mind you.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 30, 2017, 10:32:46 pm
For me, the art of this read overwhelms any need for clarity on every bit of it - don't need it all tied up in a bow for me to love it. Bakker provided the best gift an author can give ... wonder. I love thinking about the story and what it all means and where it might go from here. The beauty of this story ( my favorite of all time across all mediums ) is how it sends my mind in so many different directions simultaneously. If things were more "exact" and fulfilled, it wouldn't have been as fun and I wouldn't have had the extreme pleasure of talking this out with you fine people!
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 30, 2017, 10:35:03 pm
Ooooh, Thelli - I love your thinking! I think you're right, Kel was the 100th Chorae ( Serwa didn't make a mistake ).

Not my theory originally, but I do agree with it and think it is more likely than Serwa making a mistake.


Yep, just wandered in through the endless tunnels, caught the elevator up 100 floors (pausing to kill his sister in the midst of combat ofc), straight to the golden room where a skin spy receptionist says, "The Consult are I'm a meeting, you'll have to wait." But no, just use eye beams to disintergrate that, waltz in and cause havoc. Mutilated are all like "wtf, skin spy 10056, you could have let us know. Lol, nvm, this is how conditioned ground works of course Lolol. 12D benjuka, Winning!"

All clear to me now, thanks.

I'm not sure if this is referring to my previous post, but if so, I wasn't trying to give the impression that Kelmomas' journey to the Golden Room (with or without a Chorae murder break) was quick. I was just listing the sequence of events, which would have taken quite a while by themselves. :)


For me, the art of this read overwhelms any need for clarity on every bit of it - don't need it all tied up in a bow for me to love it. Bakker provided the best gift an author can give ... wonder. I love thinking about the story and what it all means and where it might go from here. The beauty of this story ( my favorite of all time across all mediums ) is how it sends my mind in so many different directions simultaneously. If things were more "exact" and fulfilled, it wouldn't have been as fun and I wouldn't have had the extreme pleasure of talking this out with you fine people!

I agree in part and completely understand what you mean, but I'm the kind of person who's too curious about some details to stop questioning/discussing them altogether and just appreciate the writing. ;)
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 30, 2017, 10:55:48 pm
Please excuse my incredulous sarcasm in my previous post. It's become rather clear to me that my interpretation of these books so often runs against consensus that I must be deluding myself as to what I am reading.

I think it's best if I just stay out of these discussions and avoid Bakker's work entirely in future.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 30, 2017, 11:24:17 pm
Please excuse my incredulous sarcasm in my previous post. It's become rather clear to me that my interpretation of these books so often runs against consensus that I must be deluding myself as to what I am reading.

I think it's best if I just stay out of these discussions and avoid Bakker's work entirely in future.
Maybe it's not necessary to take so drastic of a step? Consensus is often overrated, and different perspectives are important when matters are less than clear.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Nil Sertrax on August 31, 2017, 12:52:58 am
"Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life."

IMHO, the most simple interpretation of this response, given the poor grammar, is that it contains a typo or was auto-corrected into something other than what he intended.  Would "sarcophagus" get auto corrected into "Oar comes"?  I always read it as the sarcophagus coming back online but, again, even Bakker's clarifications occasionally require clarification. 

So when is the AMA scheduled where he will provide answers regarding his responses in the initial AMA?!?!?   
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 31, 2017, 01:12:13 am
Please excuse my incredulous sarcasm in my previous post. It's become rather clear to me that my interpretation of these books so often runs against consensus that I must be deluding myself as to what I am reading.

I think it's best if I just stay out of these discussions and avoid Bakker's work entirely in future.
Naw, no need to take it so seriously. I do agree with you, though. The 'he traded one tyrant for four' and the fact he said 'I told you!', pretty sure that was after Kellhus was dead.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 31, 2017, 02:17:47 am
Nah, I have been getting way too much cognitive dissonance from trying to understand various perspectives here, with the resulting frustration leading me to make obnoxious posts as above.

Bakker's deliberately ambiguous style is probably as much to blame as my own stupidity for my difficulties, but that's whatever.

I don't feel as though I'm  adding any value to the discussions here, so I'm out.

Sorry for the thread derail, should've kept my mouth shut and left graciously.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: MSJ on August 31, 2017, 02:28:21 am
Quote from:  Cuerthean
You really think the Mutilated let an Anasrimbor (even an eight year old one) run around the heart of the Ark doing whatever he wants? Wow.

No, he didn't wonder around doing as he pleaded. He was brought by a skin spy to the GR.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 31, 2017, 03:02:31 am
Quote
1. TUC imo = Fantastic work Scott, bravo.

So your enthusiasm\talk with the author was a lie?
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Crtha on August 31, 2017, 03:18:25 am
Quote
1. TUC imo = Fantastic work Scott, bravo.

So your enthusiasm\talk with the author was a lie?
Haha, no.

Bakker's ambiguity makes me want to discuss his stuff. The problem is my inability to effectively communicate with others.

Ergo, I should avoid his work in order to avoid my reaction in order to avoid these situations.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on August 31, 2017, 12:28:33 pm
Look, Curethan - I'm sure I speak for everyone on this forum without exception - we all want diverse views. Nobody has kicked me out yet and if there were a poll, my posts would probably win the award for the most inane posts ( I once posted I thought PON was a romance novel with its central thesis being love - I still think that idea has legs  :-[ ).

Would love for you to stay, want everyone to stay. If your point is you don't want to ruffle feathers - well, its plausibly impossible for anyone to accomplish that via text/email/blog posts since conversational written word alone fails to denote emotion, humor and friendly sarcasm. Not to insult you, but I found nothing of what you posted to be immature, incorrect, insulting, in bad taste or form, etc. It could be worse, you could be ignored -
 most of my posts go unanswered or maybe if I'm lucky I get 1 response. Doesn't phase me a bit, there's bound to be a stupid redneck to come along and like the books FOR the sexual depravity and violence and not in spite of it :D. I finished the 3rd book thinking the Inchoroi and the Non-men were the same "people", only to come here and find out they're not and one of them were aliens ( in my defense, Inchoroi and Ishroi are very similar "alien" terminology among the mass bombardment of hard to pronounce language ). Everything is described as art, so I took burning ark from the skies as some magical evil vehicle raising hell on it's way in ... not a spaceship ( in a fantasy novel ) crashing into the planet. The apparently very patient souls on this forum set me straight and I've grown to love this work all the more because of it.

Maybe I'm simply not a sensitive person, maybe completely misunderstand your position, but you've posted  700+ times over the years and it would be a waste to dismiss that and we would be lessor without you.

Reconsider.

Edit: and besides, you have a cool name and picture
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Duskweaver on August 31, 2017, 03:45:32 pm
It's become rather clear to me that my interpretation of these books so often runs against consensus that I must be deluding myself as to what I am reading.
Screw consensus. Anyway, I at least agree with you that Kelmomas has already spoken with the Mutilated before his father arrived.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: Sausuna on August 31, 2017, 03:55:42 pm
It's become rather clear to me that my interpretation of these books so often runs against consensus that I must be deluding myself as to what I am reading.
Screw consensus. Anyway, I at least agree with you that Kelmomas has already spoken with the Mutilated before his father arrived.
Screw consensus? Clearly you've never experienced the perils of unchecked paradox before.
Title: Re: Big question about the consult's intentions.
Post by: TaoHorror on January 05, 2018, 10:39:50 pm
This thread was one of my favorites and Wilshire referenced it for me today, so I'm resurrecting it ( forget the term, something about zombies ). That and many of the cool posters on this thread don't appear to be posting any more - come back! We haven't figured out The Consult's intentions yet ...