The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 22, 2018, 07:12:08 pm

Title: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 22, 2018, 07:12:08 pm
I though this would be a good idea, it occurred to me after creating the death predictions thread.
I'm still counting Malowebi as a possible returning POV because he still retained awareness after Kellhus died, meaning he could very well live on as a severed head.
I'm also assuming KelSammi (what I started calling the Kelmomas-with-Samarmas'-soul entity) will no longer be a POV as the No-God.
Also not counting the Omniscient POV because I want this poll to be character-based (and I assume no one would pick that one anyway).
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: TLEILAXU on May 22, 2018, 07:16:47 pm
Mostly hoping for MUTILATED POVs
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 22, 2018, 07:21:30 pm
Mostly hoping for MUTILATED POVs

So am I (just want to think on this for a bit more before casting my own votes).

That would fall under "other" because I only made individual options for characters who had already had POVs, but I think you got that. ;)
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: TaoHorror on May 23, 2018, 12:00:16 am
My Other vote is for Mutilated ( Shae? ) POV's.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 23, 2018, 11:38:49 am
Okay, finally made up my mind on this:
-Monghus, because I'm very curious to see how he'll cope with the events of TUC (he was still concerned about Kaytas and Serwa's well being at the end, and likely has no idea what happened to them...), living among the Scylvendi and dealing with Cnair's legacy.
-Other - the Mutilated, I really hope we get the POV of at least one of them (whether they're really Shae or not). There are definitely many interesting things to be told there...
-New characters - I would love to get a POV from a) someone in Zem (preferably Likaro) and/or b) Nersei Miramis (Proyas' wife). Hopefully both. I know these could both count as "Other - returning characters", but unlike the Mutilated, we've only heard mentions of them, we've never actually seen them on page. So I'm counting them as "new".
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on May 23, 2018, 02:10:48 pm
Honestly?  A return to form for Bakker's writing.  TGO and TUC were really quite uneven in term of quality.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 23, 2018, 03:00:12 pm
Honestly?  A return to form for Bakker's writing.  TGO and TUC were really quite uneven in term of quality.

I think we need to get the POV of Bakker's editor in there... ;)

But joking aside, I agree with you on this. Things like the numerous mistakes and inconsistencies I've found since last summer would have been avoided with better editing.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on May 23, 2018, 05:19:01 pm
I think we need to get the POV of Bakker's editor in there... ;)

But joking aside, I agree with you on this. Things like the numerous mistakes and inconsistencies I've found since last summer would have been avoided with better editing.

Maybe, hope against hope, is that Bakker can reconnect with the editor he had for PoN, because the "current editor" from Overlook is literally no one.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Francis Buck on June 06, 2018, 08:41:13 pm
I really want an Aurax POV. I feel as though there's a decent possibility that his "pathetic" personality is somewhat of an act, either put on for Kellhus, or maybe even put on for the Mutilated. He strikes me as a schemer, and he may have been more inclined to remembering stuff than his less "bookish" brother was (and I'm still not even convinced that Aurang is done for TBH).

In any case I think Aurax is still an important puzzle piece in some capacity. He was, after all, the "brains" behind the whole operation alongside Shaeononra, and presumably was so up until the Mutilated came in.   
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Jabberwock03 on June 21, 2018, 12:48:43 pm
I would love to have an unique point of view in writing style. Something weird like the No-God (p-zombie) or Ajokli (timeless) POV.
Also I want Malowebi and Kellhus POV (whatever they have become) !
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: natanaj on June 23, 2018, 07:41:56 pm
mutilated POV and Ajoklki POV would be cool.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Francis Buck on July 28, 2018, 08:09:05 pm
I would love to have an unique point of view in writing style. Something weird like the No-God (p-zombie) or Ajokli (timeless) POV.
Also I want Malowebi and Kellhus POV (whatever they have become) !

I agree there needs to be more non-human/Dunyain POVs, seems like a wasted oppurtunity not to have interesting POVs of other races like dragons and maybe semi-sane Nonman, perhaps even some Ursranc.

Dragons seem like a no-brainer though. For example they seem to all refer to themselves as "we" (excluding Wutteat). Would be cool to see why that is from a first hand perspective.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Jabberwock03 on July 29, 2018, 06:28:57 pm
I would love to have an unique point of view in writing style. Something weird like the No-God (p-zombie) or Ajokli (timeless) POV.
Also I want Malowebi and Kellhus POV (whatever they have become) !

I agree there needs to be more non-human/Dunyain POVs, seems like a wasted oppurtunity not to have interesting POVs of other races like dragons and maybe semi-sane Nonman, perhaps even some Ursranc.

Dragons seem like a no-brainer though. For example they seem to all refer to themselves as "we" (excluding Wutteat). Would be cool to see why that is from a first hand perspective.

Oh damn! I would love to have a scranc POV!
Something very instinctivly driven, and struggling with the NG orders (whatever Bakker feel that could be, I'm good with it: worship or submission or mind control, whatever).
The story of a Sranc for the entire book and in the end... killed by a nobody in a massive battle! Haha!
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2018, 04:05:03 pm
I would love to have an unique point of view in writing style. Something weird like the No-God (p-zombie) or Ajokli (timeless) POV.
Also I want Malowebi and Kellhus POV (whatever they have become) !

I agree there needs to be more non-human/Dunyain POVs, seems like a wasted oppurtunity not to have interesting POVs of other races like dragons and maybe semi-sane Nonman, perhaps even some Ursranc.

Dragons seem like a no-brainer though. For example they seem to all refer to themselves as "we" (excluding Wutteat). Would be cool to see why that is from a first hand perspective.

Oh damn! I would love to have a scranc POV!
Something very instinctivly driven, and struggling with the NG orders (whatever Bakker feel that could be, I'm good with it: worship or submission or mind control, whatever).
The story of a Sranc for the entire book and in the end... killed by a nobody in a massive battle! Haha!

The possibility of a Sranc POV (well, I think we already got one or two during the series. but those were very brief) becomes even more interesting taking this passage into account:
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Aghurzoi"
Damial'isharin--a Silan Ishroi who found himself trapped for five days (hidden in a dead fall) in the heart of an itinerant clan camp--famously claimed the Sranc possessed social customs and regimes very nearly as complicated as their own.
I can't be the only one who's curious about these complex Sranc social customs...
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Wilshire on August 02, 2018, 04:12:06 pm
Its sad Iyokus never really came back. Maybe some soul wrenching suffering in the Outside.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2018, 04:16:54 pm
Its sad Iyokus never really came back. Maybe some soul wrenching suffering in the Outside.

Probably the only way we'd see him again, yes (maybe barring flashbacks?), as it doesn't seem like he'd be anywhere near "Ciphrang-level" of damnation. And I agree with you, Iyokus was severely underused during TAE - I know he was more important in PON, but still, we could have had at least one or two scenes with him during the Ordeal chapters. He was only mentioned a couple of times during TJE, TWLW and TGO and then came back to be killed by a Ciphrang. Sad.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Francis Buck on August 02, 2018, 10:05:35 pm
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 02, 2018, 10:21:38 pm
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carinds. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obw Gswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhor (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: profgrape on August 13, 2018, 03:19:24 pm
I found Iyokus not appearing on-screen whatsoever to be very, very strange, to the extent that it doesn't really make sense to me. Why would he not have been more involved, for example, in the scenes with members of the Great Ordeal making tactical/strategic decisions? We see the other leading sorcerors involved there (hell, an entire subplot is devoted to Saccarrees and Carindusu). I'd figured by the time TGO came out Iyokus still hadn't popped up  that RSB was just saving himfor TUC - and in a sense he was, what with the super daimos Ciphrang attack -- but it still felt strange that we gradually got to catch up on characters like Proyas and later Saubon as TAE progressed, but never got anything from the dude who is in large part responsible for some of the more important things in the quadrilogy, including Kellhus's learning of the Daimos (the relevance of which can't really be overstated, given the ending of TUC).

It feels like something where there may have been plans to have him show up, but they either got dropped in editing or RSB just felt like it wasn't plot relevant by the time we got TUC, and that the glimpse we got via Kakaliol was enough.

I agree. I seem to remember a scene where Iyokus expressed his opinion during a meeting or something, but that was about it. For three books, he was almost entirely in the background. Which is indeed strange, considering this is a secondary character that had an important role in the last series and (which is maybe more relevant for TAE) that was Kellhus' tutor in the Daimos in between series.
It's possible that Bakker felt that he just didn't have the time to include anything with Iyokus along with all the other ongoing plotlines, but it's still disappointing. We just get a short scene with him (and he wasn't even referred to by name, which resulted in some people not even noticing that he died...) and then he dies. I haven't heard of any deleted scene involving him, though, so maybe dropping a possible Iyokus subplot (if it did happen) was an early decision?
Like you said, we had those scenes with Saccarees and Carinds. Iyokus' role in TAE is even smaller than that of Obw Gswuran (Mysunsai Grandmaster) and Temus Enhor (Imperial Saik Grandmaster), who aren't that important as characters, but are at least mentioned frequently. It's almost a glaring absence, every single Grandmaster of a School in the Ordeal except for Iyokus (until his only and last scene) has a minor role.

A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Francis Buck on October 13, 2018, 06:42:02 pm
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).

Your first point is something I always flip-flop on with RSB. On the one hand, it's definitely fairly clear when certain POVs are held off (like the lack of an Aurang POV in all of TAE aside from a few snippets in TUC, presumably in order to avoid mention of the Mutilated), but at the same time he seems to have not have much of a problem giving a POV with very "selective disclosure". Pretty much every Kellhus POV in TAE does this, for example -- despite seeing his inner thoughts, to the extent of literally glimpsing his experience in the Outside, we ultimately are left in the dark about a great number of Kellhus's decisions and his ultimate plans or goals. Obviously part of this is just to secure the sense of tension surrounding the character and the Ordeal and so forth, but I think it extends to other characters as well. Serwa, for example, almost certainly knows about things we "aren't supposed to know" but RSB just avoids that stuff (or consider that, throughout all of the Aurang POVs in PON, up to and including the moments when he first realizes an Anasurimbor has returned, never once does he ruminate upon the fact that Kellhus's ancestor Nau-Cayuti was the freakin' No-God -- I know Aurang nor the Consult in general don't seem to realize the significance of using an Anasurimbor for the Subject, but still).

I wouldn't quite call this stuff "cheating", but it definitely cuts pretty close at times.

At the end of the day though I get the sense there just may not have been enough to warrant an Iyokus POV in general, as the only relevance he might have had was possibly, as you say, off limits. I think I was just expecting him to have a slightly larger role given his importance in the first series (his role is still pretty damn big TAE, arguably even bigger, but clearly there are details about the metaphysics and the Daimos which RSB is keeping mysterious, or just hasn't figured out).
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Wilshire on October 13, 2018, 07:07:17 pm
There's a line there between limited information, and straight up dues ex machina. Most of the people here give Bakker the benefit of the doubt, but he does make us work for it.

And you're right, Iyokus - assuming he's the Blind Sorcerer lol - is absolutely central to Kellhus gambit for Golgotterath. In fact, I'd argue the Diamoti are THE MOST important pieces. They are not seen a single time until the final battle, and considering Kellhus allowed an entire school and half the Mandate to be wiped out (plus other casualties) this is extremely significant.

The Few are few and the Ordeal their shield. But the summoners among them might number in the single digits - how important are those that Kellhus is using his Schools to shield?
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 13, 2018, 09:57:21 pm
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).
I didn't notice that but it's a good point. Iyokus is intelligent and likely wouldn't have fallen for Kellhus' prophetic charms the same way others might have, and also he would've probably known more about his impending damnation than every other sorcerer except Kellhus himself.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Wilshire on October 15, 2018, 12:02:42 pm
A couple of ideas on why this might have been:

1. He knows too much.  As things turned out, Kellhus' experiments with the Daimos ended up being pretty important to the story.  So providing his perspective might have been too much a tip of the hat. 

2. Optics.  Of all Kellhus' atrocities, none were more concerning to his flock than his experiments with the Daimos.  The Decapitants in particular were hard to square with his role as Prophet.   So it might have made sense to keep Iyokus at arms' length.

Yeah I think your second point can work for sure, at least to explain his lack of presence during the strategy and councils and so forth (interesting, for example, how Iyokus doesn't even show up for moments like when the Believer-Kings gather or the Last Whelming -- I can't think of any reason off-hand other than what you suggest that would make sense for that).
I didn't notice that but it's a good point. Iyokus is intelligent and likely wouldn't have fallen for Kellhus' prophetic charms the same way others might have, and also he would've probably known more about his impending damnation than every other sorcerer except Kellhus himself.

And so he was shielded from the readers as well. Bakker does so love his secrets, and POV Iyokus or any other of the Diamoti may have given us too much direct information... Or something. At this point we have Kellhus POVs, but nothing to really corroborate with. Iyokus would have probably been the only one able to confirm or deny.

Also, where even the other schoolmen saw Kellhus as a god, and the Mandate a sovereign, the Diamos set those who could wield it apart, and Kellhus never actually summoned anything of particular interest. Could be that this particular skill was not enhanced by the Dunyain intellect. This makes Iyokus some kind of proof that Kellhus is just a human. Plenty of reasons to keep him far away.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: MSJ on October 15, 2018, 01:12:53 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
Also, where even the other schoolmen saw Kellhus as a god, and the Mandate a sovereign, the Diamos set those who could wield it apart, and Kellhus never actually summoned anything of particular interest. Could be that this particular skill was not enhanced by the Dunyain intellect. This makes Iyokus some kind of proof that Kellhus is just a human. Plenty of reasons to keep him far away.

You don't think he summoned the Ciphrang he wears on his belt? I'd say he did. I'd also say that Iyokus didn't want the company of others after having his eyes tore out by Akka. And, that's the reason we don't see him. It could be the reasons you suggest. But, I think the reasons are far simpler. As with most answers we get from Bakker.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on October 15, 2018, 02:13:01 pm
Well, what about the possibility that Iyokus wasn't even really his "own person" any more?  As in, however Kellhus convinced him to teach him the Daimos left him basically Kellhus' puppet (or something similar).

Also, considering that we know one of the Decapitants had a very real purpose, so it figures that the other one did too.  Just what the purpose is we don't know, but it probably is important, as is that Glossary entry about the head-swapping incident.  I doubt if Kellhus' objective with the Daimos was to "summon" Ciphrang in general.  What does he need Ciphrang for when he can wield far greater power than probably any of them?  Rather, he probably was looking for two very specific Ciphrang, for the exact purpose of being the Decapitants.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Wilshire on October 15, 2018, 03:06:01 pm
Interesting thought that the Ciphrang had something specific about them that made them worth    Decapitating.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on October 15, 2018, 04:15:29 pm
Interesting thought that the Ciphrang had something specific about them that made them worth    Decapitating.

When the thought struck me, I was rather surprised to have assumed it could have been otherwise though.  As in, would it really have just been two random Ciphrang he just happened to find?  That seems exceptionally unlikely.  The further implications are hard to figure though, since they could be literally anyone.  Hell, one could be Seswatha for all we know.  Also, since we don't know the implication for the other head, for example the one currently on Malowebi's body, it's unclear what distinction is desirable, although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Wilshire on October 15, 2018, 06:35:12 pm
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on October 15, 2018, 08:06:43 pm
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)

There is also a possibility that one of them is Kellhus himself...
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 15, 2018, 10:45:55 pm
First, yeah, as you point out 'two random ciphrangs' seems unlikely lol.
although it probably would be something that makes them unquestionably loyal (or bound) to Kellhus' will.
Like how he conquered Ajokli ;)

There is also a possibility that one of them is Kellhus himself...
Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am
I definitely think the Daimos is low-key the most "powerful" sorcery, in terms of the raw potential it grants a practitioner, but it's compensated for by being easily the most dangerous. Even the Mandate and seemingly (probably for good reason) the Consult don't fuck with Daimotics, while we know that the mightier Ciphrang are unpredictable (see: Zioz and Kakaliol). And that's without bringing actual Gods into the equation, and we all saw what happened when even Kellhus can't control a "Ciphrang-God".

Two thoughts:

1. I wonder if the Gnosis actually can't even be applied to Daimotic sorcery. It sort of makes sense, considering the type of powers exhibited by the Ciphrang (Gods excluded) are very Anagogic -- vomiting pestilence or unleashing a wave of fiery wolves or flies, etc. Furthermore, given the terms used such as the Blind Necromancer for Iyokus and the use of "noomancy" as an alternate name for the Daimos all brings to mind the notion of how the Outside is a place of subjective/anthropomorphic/meta-psychological "innerspace". The Gnosis itself also seems increasingly like a more a "worldly" sorcery -- almost limitless power in the right hands, but a temporal one.

2. I personally don't think Kellhus is hiding in a head or anything (my theory/opinion on is this too insane for this post but I think Kellhus's current fate is "unique" and has to do with Seswatha and the metaphysics of the Gnosis and the Sacred Heart of Serwe and other crazy shit, I digress), however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?

There's also the weird (very possibly meaningless) occurrence of the name "Hagazioz, Feathered-Wyrm of the Pit" in TUC. Can Ciphrang evolve or be "rewritten" in a manner similar to the Hundred? Is a Ciphrang always a Ciphrang? It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.

Weird stuff as usual.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: SmilerLoki on October 16, 2018, 08:57:38 am
1. I wonder if the Gnosis actually can't even be applied to Daimotic sorcery. It sort of makes sense, considering the type of powers exhibited by the Ciphrang (Gods excluded) are very Anagogic -- vomiting pestilence or unleashing a wave of fiery wolves or flies, etc.
I would consider the Gnosis and Anagogis to be two sets of tools (one more advanced, one less), as opposed to the Daimos, which is how the tools are used (on par with wards and Cants). I must note that so far we've only seen Ciphrang summoned by Anagogic sorcerers, and since summoning Ciphrang basically "folds" them into the world through the consciousness of the summoner, it's quite possible they appear Anagogic exactly because they were summoned by Anagogic means. In other words, we can't really establish what's the cause and what's the effect here.

The Gnosis itself also seems increasingly like a more a "worldly" sorcery -- almost limitless power in the right hands, but a temporal one.
I strongly disagree with this. Emotions are just as worldly, conditioned by objective experiences (at least if we believe Ajencis), as mathematical abstractions, created to classify and analyze those same experiences in a more efficient way.

It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.
It might be simply an artifact of early writing. Ciphrang POVs always gave me a distinct otherworldly feeling, but Bakker got a lot better at evoking it in later books.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on October 16, 2018, 12:01:14 pm
Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.

I didn't present it as if it was a good idea, just something that would probably be possible.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: TLEILAXU on October 16, 2018, 07:16:44 pm
however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?
I hate this idea!!! But I'm still confused as to why the Ciphrang did not kill Akka.

It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.

Weird stuff as usual.
Forgot all about that. Mind finding the passage for me coz' I'm lazy? Sounds really interesting.

Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.

I didn't present it as if it was a good idea, just something that would probably be possible.
Eh I don't think it's that bad, just wack, and also kinda plausible.


Also, what would a daimos+psukhe sorcerer be like? Maybe you can summon stronger demons without getting shrecked? Maybe Iyokus had a little bit of Psukhe in him due to the loss of his eyes, lending him the ability to command stronger demons than other sorcerers? Oh but the chanv...
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: H on October 16, 2018, 07:44:11 pm
however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?
I hate this idea!!! But I'm still confused as to why the Ciphrang did not kill Akka.

Well, pragmatically, we can consider that if it could have, it would have.  Since it didn't, it seems it couldn't.  Probably because Akka's Skin Wards or other Wards were just strong enough.  In light of this, it took the next best option, pick him up and go drop him in the sea.  The Wards wouldn't protect him from drowning though, plausibly.  IIRC though, the Ciphrang was just too wounded for the plan to work and plausibly it dies just short of the water, dropping Akka on the beach.
Title: Re: Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Post by: sciborg2 on October 22, 2018, 09:30:27 am
Other - Kelmomas within the Carapace, at least if this viewpoint gives clarification as to who/what the No God is.