The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Judging Eye => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:35:59 pm

Title: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:35:59 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
Reading this book for the third time, and stumbled across a sleeping T-Rex...  Did, did, did he really just accidentally give away the outcome of the Great Ordeal?!  :o   Or am I hallucinating?  ;)

USA First Edition 2009, Hardcover, Page 163-164:

"... an endless train of supplies wound in front of the southern horizon, bearing arms, wares, rations, and more rations...  Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen -- a name that would later become holy."

If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:06 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
A generous interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but not the only option here.
It is possible for them to fail. For example, Meppa is pretty much a holy figure simply since he was a survivor.
The Herdsmen could already be a holy name, given that for period of time the Ordeal had contact with the empire back home. Those left behind can pretty much be expected to revere any news or deeds that they heard about. The nickname, once learned by the normal folk, could possibly just become holy simply by existing.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:12 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
"Later" could easily just mean "about a week later". The Ordeal is an army of fanatical believers. Pretty much anything is going to start feeling like a sacrament to them pretty darn quickly. I think that's the point RSB is making there, actually: that even what started as a casual, almost cynical, nickname takes on greater significance thanks to Kellhus' inspiration/manipulation.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:18 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
and what is more sacred then the men who keep the beasts that feed you?

And who will herd the sranc that feed you?

The Herdsmen.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:24 pm
Quote from: Madness
Lmao, wicked imagery, lockesnow... however, I don't imagine that they'll have to herd the Sranc in order to maintain a food source. They are constantly after the Ordeal. I do wonder if we're supposed to assume that in the Battle of the Horde and the Battle of the Five Fingers, the Ordeal took care of enough Sranc to stop them mobbing?

Quote from: Duskweaver
I think that's the point RSB is making there, actually: that even what started as a casual, almost cynical, nickname takes on greater significance thanks to [...]

normal cultural and social interaction - though, I agree that Kellhus' manipulations are likely embedding these memes faster, couldn't Bakker also be suggesting that this is a way groups identify themselves? I think the speed its adopted and its consensual value (Holy) speaks to the scary fast way human groups can take on collective identity, which then defines (comes before) some of their beliefs and actions?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:32 pm
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Madness
think the speed its adopted and its consensual value (Holy) speaks to the scary fast way human groups can take on collective identity, which then defines (comes before) some of their beliefs and actions?
Which in turn further defines that collective identity. And when it becomes sufficiently self-referential/self-reinforcing, creating enough meaning out of apparent meaninglessness... well, hello there, Professor Hofstadter! ;)

More and more, I'm coming to see the Ordeal, not as a tool Kellhus is using for some purpose, but rather as the process of fashioning a tool shaped like itself. You'd normally expect the word 'ordeal' to be applied to an event (or series of events), rather than a group of people. An ordeal is usually something you experience, not something you are. It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.

So, crackpot theory time. Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

(Corollary: the Consult used careful application of extreme experiences, enhanced by the Tekne, to turn a bunch of captives into the No-God: a gestalt mind incapable of... well, actually, I'm not entirely sure what Mog-Pharau's cognitive impairments are and I'm hesitant to label him non-self-aware. His plaintive demand that "You must tell me what you see!" is self-referential, so he seems to be in some sense aware that he exists. He just doesn't seem to have any idea what he is. Perhaps he's just a broken loop, able to ask the question "Who am I?" but unable to answer it.)
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:36:51 pm
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Duskweaver
Which in turn further defines that collective identity. And when it becomes sufficiently self-referential/self-reinforcing, creating enough meaning out of apparent meaninglessness... well, hello there, Professor Hofstadter! ;)

One of my good friends growing up turned me onto Godel, Escher, Bach at 15... he'd read it at 13. Crazy fuck.

Quote from: Duskweaver
Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

I like it. I'm not sure of the narrative ramifications but it fits very well with Moenghus' Viramsata metaphor in TTT - which in turn, fits nicely with the analogy we're drawing here.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:37:05 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
Quote from: Duskweaver
It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.
Probably untrue.  ;)  It's almost certainly a name taken from the events of the First Apocalypse, where Anasurimbor Celmomas also led a coalition called The Great Ordeal against Golgotterath.

Quote from: Madness
One of my good friends growing up turned me onto Godel, Escher, Bach at 15... he'd read it at 13. Crazy fuck.
I'll bet you he's an Erratic by now.

Anyway I just threw that out there to see what you guys think.  It may well be nothing, but I do think it's suggestive.  After all, the soldiers call themselves Men of the Ordeal.  "Herdsmen" is more of a joke among themselves.  So they wouldn't make that term "become holy."  Those who "make it holy" seem to me should be those who are not direct participants in the war.  Keep in mind that the soldiers are not at all representative of the people of the three seas in general -- they are the fanatical believers whereas many in the three seas are probably skeptics to say the least (such as the followers of Yatwer, underground Orthodox, the fugitive padirajah, the countless who have suffered during the Unification War, and pretty much everybody in Zeum).  It's the success (still completely undefinable in my mind) of the Ordeal that will finally convince these in the end, and "holify" the whole thing in legend.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:37:39 pm
Quote from: sologdin
i noted in the margin a few other moments where the narrator seems to cast forward spoilery.  will try to track them down.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:38:45 pm
Quote from: Fanor
Quote from: Truth Shines
If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!

The options are not mutually exclusive.

On topic, I think 'later' referes to a short/medium period of time, like months; that and fanatism should do it so (raise the herdsmen to holy); I also like the other interpretation, about herding the sranc to feed themselves as a holy task. I don't think RSB would spoil in that way the end of the ordeal, like talking about how men would call their veterans in the future, "after the ordeal" (btw, excellent Genesis instrumental track from "Selling England by the pound").

Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:38:55 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Fanor
Quote from: Truth Shines
If the Great Ordeal fails, there would be no one left alive in the world to talk about it, to make it "later become holy" (similar to how the word "Veteran" became holy in the aftermath of the Holy War).  This must mean the Ordeal will eventually succeed, somehow, in preventing the rise of No-God for the second time.

Or am I crazy?!

The options are not mutually exclusive.
:lol:
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:39:01 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
page 221 WLW
"A massacre of the mad many by the holy few"
holy few, in this instance, is specifically referring to the men of the ordeal, which also means it is referring to The Herdsmen. So by half way through WLW they considered themselves holy.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:39:06 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Duskweaver
More and more, I'm coming to see the Ordeal, not as a tool Kellhus is using for some purpose, but rather as the process of fashioning a tool shaped like itself. You'd normally expect the word 'ordeal' to be applied to an event (or series of events), rather than a group of people. An ordeal is usually something you experience, not something you are. It sounded like a very odd use of the word right from the start, and I'm beginning to think that might have been intended as a clue.

So, crackpot theory time. Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

(Corollary: the Consult used careful application of extreme experiences, enhanced by the Tekne, to turn a bunch of captives into the No-God: a gestalt mind incapable of... well, actually, I'm not entirely sure what Mog-Pharau's cognitive impairments are and I'm hesitant to label him non-self-aware. His plaintive demand that "You must tell me what you see!" is self-referential, so he seems to be in some sense aware that he exists. He just doesn't seem to have any idea what he is. Perhaps he's just a broken loop, able to ask the question "Who am I?" but unable to answer it.)

Man, this is great.

K already has experience like this with the TT and forging the Holy War into a tool that he used to create the New Empire.

Raising the crack'dpottery stakes (Nerdanel factor 9, Captain);
Maybe the third series will see Kelmomas taking to the stars after reverse engineering the Ark and the IF.
Kinda like an inversion of the fremen on the Golden Path
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:39:13 pm
Quote from: Madness
"And the great Ark, horned and gleaming, began to rise, shaking from its alien filigree the stone of battlements and the flesh of men as both fell to the distant ground below."
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: What Came Before on April 26, 2013, 04:39:18 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
I don't want kelmomas to be the one that starts off the scattering... wonder how he would react if the consult kill his momma?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Francis Buck on January 12, 2014, 08:30:22 pm
I think it's more likely we'll see Lil Kel react to his momma being killed by Fanayal (or someone allied with him). And the answer is: going completely apeshit on everyone in the Andiamine Heights. I actually think Kellhus planned for this (not necessarily Esmi being killed, just Kel being able to wreak utter havoc on anyone occupying the Heights).
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 12, 2014, 10:25:33 pm
A spontaneous explosion of water?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 13, 2014, 04:10:57 pm
No, no water. Meppa is the Last. Kelmomas will just rampage about in the secret halls murdering and eating his kills. Fanayal will regret stepping into the Heights.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 13, 2014, 10:57:58 pm
Lol - it cannot be so simple. Surely Kelmomas will leave the Labyrinth and return to his mother... broken, maybe.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 15, 2014, 06:10:03 pm
Nah not so simple, I just refuse to believe there will be more Water-Bearers. Don't know why, but I just want that story arc to end with Meppa. I like to think that Bakker enjoys ending story arcs before the reader is ready, so I want whats dead to remain so. I'll let the dreamers keep dreaming though.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 16, 2014, 03:20:31 pm
The Psukhe will rise again.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2014, 03:29:41 pm
Its secrets die when Meppa is vanquished by some nefarious or ironic means, hopefully via a chorae though. Unless Kellhus comes back, I see no way he can be overpowered. Whatever Magi Kellhus left behind will be washed away, so some other method, the WLW perhaps, will have to destroy him.... I wonder what the 100 see when the Cishaurim Sing? How will Mr. WLW react when the God's own works are poured against him.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 16, 2014, 03:57:56 pm
Rumours suggest that the Psukhe has arisen spontaneously before ;).

I would love to see the Warrior and Meppa go at it... I'm pretty sure Meppa is an X-factor still. He might side with Esmenet over Fanayal. But the Warrior is going to oppose Fanayal to get Psatma back, obviously.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: themerchant on January 16, 2014, 04:14:47 pm
Wonder if Kelhus left any sorcerous weapons kicking about. Or if he took them all with him.



Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2014, 04:30:11 pm
Anyone watch/read Full Metal Alchemist? Maybe somebody has carved one of those fancy anti-sorcery circles around the entire town, and someone will complete it as Meppa marches to the heart. Suddenly you've got a bunch of writhing schoolmen, holy or otherwise.

[edit]
Is it confirmed either way that those artifacts such as the circle or collar are from Schools other than the Aporose? It just seems odd to me that you create anti-magic devices with... magic.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 16, 2014, 04:54:38 pm
Wonder if Kelhus left any sorcerous weapons kicking about. Or if he took them all with him.

I'm sure Kellhus still plans on exercising his agency in Momemn somehow. I'm also dead-sure there are sorcerous weapons to come in TUC.

[edit]
Is it confirmed either way that those artifacts such as the circle or collar are from Schools other than the Aporose? It just seems odd to me that you create anti-magic devices with... magic.

Yes. And the Agonic Collar and Agonic Circle seem to turn sorcerous expression into pain. It doesn't seem a direct negation (like the Aporos), more so a transmutation of direction - like the Sorcerer's Cant is turned on themselves.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2014, 05:50:56 pm
That is a fair point, but still I wonder if the Anagogis schools could have stumbled upon the Gnostic ways, or the Aporos at least, if they followed the path long enough.

It seems to me that the Agonic collar/circle is just a metaphysical/intellectual  hop, skip, and jump away from a chorae.


If all sorcery is damned, would the Aporotic schoolmen be damned? Is restorying the world to the way it should be a damnable offense....
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 16, 2014, 08:27:57 pm
That is a fair point, but still I wonder if the Anagogis schools could have stumbled upon the Gnostic ways, or the Aporos at least, if they followed the path long enough.

Bakker has mentioned that Gnostic sorcery is what Anagogic could be, if the proper conceptual leaps are made.

If all sorcery is damned, would the Aporotic schoolmen be damned? Is restorying the world to the way it should be a damnable offense....

Is all sorcery, sorcery? Is the Psukhe not sorcery? If it's not, might the Aporos be something different as well? If the Psukhe isn't sorcery, is it Thaumaturgy?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 16, 2014, 08:49:38 pm
Bakker has mentioned that Gnostic sorcery is what Anagogic could be, if the proper conceptual leaps are made.

Thats what I was remembering when I wrote that, though I thought it was mentioned in the book somewhere. Noteably, I believe Akka himself says that the Anagogic Schools could never reach the gnosis on their own, which is in stunning contrast to the above statement.

Is all sorcery, sorcery? Is the Psukhe not sorcery? If it's not, might the Aporos be something different as well? If the Psukhe isn't sorcery, is it Thaumaturgy?
I'm probably jumping onto the Psukhe-is-Thaumaturgy train, and by extension that could put the Aporos somewhere else I suppose.

Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Aural on January 16, 2014, 11:11:53 pm
Quote from: Truth Shines
Reading this book for the third time, and stumbled across a sleeping T-Rex...  Did, did, did he really just accidentally give away the outcome of the Great Ordeal?!  :o   Or am I hallucinating?  ;)

USA First Edition 2009, Hardcover, Page 163-164:

"... an endless train of supplies wound in front of the southern horizon, bearing arms, wares, rations, and more rations...  Vast herds of sheep and cattle, bred solely to accompany the march, were also beaten across the horizon, so many that some Men of the Ordeal began calling themselves ka Koumiroi, or the Herdsmen -- a name that would later become holy."

I think he was giving us a clue that sheep will become holy in TUC, just like storks.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 17, 2014, 12:53:14 am
I think he was giving us a clue that sheep will become holy in TUC, just like storks.

I looked back to see if I'd written this (and I see lockesnow had written this) but I do feel Bakker's referring to the way Men who worked to beat food across the Plains for the Ordeal to survive. The fact that it references a future point as Duskweaver and I were discussing probably refers to the way people fanatically adopt cultural datum and mutate.

But damn, the Nerdanel of this thread goes to:

Quote from: Duskweaver
So, crackpot theory time. Kellhus is using careful application of extreme experiences to turn the Ordeal itself into the awakened God of Gods: a gestalt soul capable of self-awareness.

(Corollary: the Consult used careful application of extreme experiences, enhanced by the Tekne, to turn a bunch of captives into the No-God: a gestalt mind incapable of... well, actually, I'm not entirely sure what Mog-Pharau's cognitive impairments are and I'm hesitant to label him non-self-aware.

The Corollary is also insightful and in line with aspects of conversation Curethan and I have had.

I'm probably jumping onto the Psukhe-is-Thaumaturgy train, and by extension that could put the Aporos somewhere else I suppose.

I think all sorcery is inevitably going to be revealed as Kellhus has said in TTT: all is Thaumaturgy simply wielded properly (a la Cishaurim, maybe, Titirga closer?).

Psatma and the Warrior might as well be extensions of Yatwer's Will at this point.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Aural on January 17, 2014, 10:07:06 am
Damn, better start applying your advice about reading the thread before posting again...

Is 'Nerdanel' Bakker terminology for... I don't know, troll or something? (I was serious btw)
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Garet Jax on January 17, 2014, 02:09:41 pm
Quote
Also, Nerdanel was a forum poster on Westeros who disappeared from posting sometime after TJE came out. Nerdanel had the most outlandish theories. Now Nerdanel has become synonymous with our nerdanels :).

It's like Marklar.
Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:01:22 PM by Madness

Handed down from our fearless leader.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 17, 2014, 02:20:53 pm
Damn, better start applying your advice about reading the thread before posting again...

Is 'Nerdanel' Bakker terminology for... I don't know, troll or something? (I was serious btw)

Well, as the legend goes, Nerdanel was an individual on some old forum who always came up with crazy (and elaborate) theories. Though this person has since disappeared from our community, their legend lives on. We've taken to naming our own crazier crackpot theories as 'nerdenels', though feel free to ignore this practice; 'Theory' or 'Crackpot' work just as well.


BTW don't bother trying to read every post before you post. There might be 2 or 3 people around here who have, but that isn't and shouldn't be the standard. Post whatever, wherever you think it fits in. If everyone tried to read everything before they posted, no one new would ever say anything.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Aural on January 17, 2014, 02:28:17 pm
I don't know... Whenever a person gets banned or disappears from a forum, my first instinct is not to ask "why did they leave", but to start looking at new members to try and figure out what that person's new handle is. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Nerdanel was actually among us now or on Westeros and posting innocently from a new alt.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 17, 2014, 02:40:31 pm
Lol didn't even see Garet Jax's post above my, roughly 11 minutes before I posted. I swear that wasn't there when I posted.....

I don't know... Whenever a person gets banned or disappears from a forum, my first instinct is not to ask "why did they leave", but to start looking at new members to try and figure out what that person's new handle is. I mean I wouldn't be surprised if Nerdanel was actually among us now or on Westeros and posting innocently from a new alt.

Who's looking for anyone? We are talking about nerdanel(-s, -ing) not Nerdanel(proper noun)... Though I have read a post or 2 of people lamenting the loss of the latter.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 17, 2014, 06:03:58 pm
Lol +1.

May Nerdanel return to nerdanel nerdanels alongside our nerdanels.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: sologdin on January 28, 2014, 10:15:37 pm
you banned her, madness? not polite!
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 10:41:11 pm
I did no such thing?

I think Nskoghar was referring to Nerdanel's absence from Westeros?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 06:52:48 pm
you banned her, madness? not polite!

lol this is how rumors start.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 06:56:11 pm
Lol - from inbox to outbox, outbox to inbox the rumours flew, until truth became lies and lies became truth.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Duskweaver on January 30, 2014, 01:30:43 pm
*Psst* I heard Madness ate Nerdanel's liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti. :o
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 04:55:15 pm
Pish. You know I don't have Lector's taste in wines ;).
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: The Sharmat on May 02, 2014, 08:06:59 am
If all sorcery is damned, would the Aporotic schoolmen be damned? Is restorying the world to the way it should be a damnable offense....
I doubt the Aporetic school was capable only of producing chorae. A school implies a whole host of teachings, not a single usable technique.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on May 04, 2014, 04:41:32 pm
If all sorcery is damned, would the Aporotic schoolmen be damned? Is restorying the world to the way it should be a damnable offense....
I doubt the Aporetic school was capable only of producing chorae. A school implies a whole host of teachings, not a single usable technique.

That doesn't answer the question though. I think the School would be dedicated to the negation of other sorcery. If it all turns on the same mechanism as the chorae, i.e removing sorcery without leaving a mark, then I'd guess that it wouldn't damn the users...
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: MG on May 05, 2014, 08:21:03 pm
If all sorcery is damned, would the Aporotic schoolmen be damned? Is restorying the world to the way it should be a damnable offense....
I doubt the Aporetic school was capable only of producing chorae. A school implies a whole host of teachings, not a single usable technique.

That doesn't answer the question though. I think the School would be dedicated to the negation of other sorcery. If it all turns on the same mechanism as the chorae, i.e removing sorcery without leaving a mark, then I'd guess that it wouldn't damn the users...

For any aporetic quya in the Consult, I guess they must think that they are damned independent of sorcery?  Otherwise, what's their motivation to join and stick with other baddies?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on May 05, 2014, 11:33:06 pm
Not necessarily. The Consult's goal is not to redeem themselves, but rather to cut the entire damnation mechanism out of the picture. Why fix the symptom, i.e. being damned, when you can cure the source, i.e. destroy the Gods?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: MG on May 08, 2014, 09:34:00 pm
Not necessarily. The Consult's goal is not to redeem themselves, but rather to cut the entire damnation mechanism out of the picture. Why fix the symptom, i.e. being damned, when you can cure the source, i.e. destroy the Gods?

I see your point, I think, is it that quya who do not think they themselves are damned are moved for altruistic reasons to undo the damnation mechanism?  Or for selfish reasons, just in case they incur damnation before they die or if they might be wrong about their own eternal fate?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2014, 01:14:58 pm
I was just speaking generally. I also think that all the living Nonmen are damned, considering they are driven to atrocity in their day to day lives. But I also don't think sorcery itself actually damns anyone, aporetic or otherwise. .. So I guess I'm agreeing with what you said above.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: MG on May 13, 2014, 03:36:59 pm
I was just speaking generally. I also think that all the living Nonmen are damned, considering they are driven to atrocity in their day to day lives. But I also don't think sorcery itself actually damns anyone, aporetic or otherwise. .. So I guess I'm agreeing with what you said above.

I hadn't thought of that--I would find it stressful too!  :P  I wonder what Cujara Cinmoi would say now: is it better to avoid damnation by living forever or is it not worth the day to day anxiety?  I would find it hard to get through my morning coffee with damnation driving me to daily atrocities.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: The Sharmat on May 14, 2014, 01:28:09 pm
You assume that

1. Not having a mark means you are not damned

2. Aporetic sorcery leaves no mark.

3. The entirety of aporetic sorcery is just various ways to negate every other sorcery in the manner of the chorae

1 and 3 are unknown, and 2 is proven false multiple times in text. Chorae have a mark. A weird mark, a great emptiness. But it's a mark that an otherwise identical ball of iron that wasn't fashioned as a chorae would not have.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on May 19, 2014, 04:59:21 pm
"Mark" meaning bruising the Onta. I had not considered the other ways it may interact with the world, but as far as we know it does not mark existence in the same way that all other sorcery. Aporetic sorcery is unique.

"not having a mark means yo are not damned", while maybe not explicitly stated, can be assumed to be false. Non-sorcerers are damned. Mim's JE shows all the skin-eaters as damned.
I don't think being born with the ability to see the Onta makes you damned (Meaning those who could wield magic but chose not too).

The Mark that schoolmen have, to me, is entirely separate from damnation. I don't think lighting a candle with magic irrevocably sends ones soul to eternal torture. Of course, it potentially could, since we don't know much of anything about damnation at this point.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: EkyannusIII on June 02, 2014, 02:00:04 pm
Not necessarily. The Consult's goal is not to redeem themselves, but rather to cut the entire damnation mechanism out of the picture. Why fix the symptom, i.e. being damned, when you can cure the source, i.e. destroy the Gods?

Thank you for posting this clarification, it is annoying when people say the rape aliens want to "save themselves" when they just want to rape more and more forever.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 04:04:15 am
The Mark that schoolmen have, to me, is entirely separate from damnation. I don't think lighting a candle with magic irrevocably sends ones soul to eternal torture. Of course, it potentially could, since we don't know much of anything about damnation at this point.
Given how cruel and power-hungry the Gods seem to be (if Yatwer is anything to go by), then I entirely believe something as innocuous as lighting a candle with sorcery could end with you being damned.
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on September 05, 2014, 02:51:26 pm
Quotes that support that view (though directed at men, could well be attributed to gods):

"There was nothing the ignorant prized more than the ignorance of others ."
Drusas Achamian, Page 43 (USA Paperback edition)

"Above all the mighty detest change"
Drusas Achamian, Page 57 (USA Paperback edition)

"In desperate times, Cnaiur knew, men rationed nothing so jealously as tolerance, They were more strict in their interpretations of custom and less forgiving of uncommon things"
Cnaiur, Page 369 (USA Paperback edition)


After all, for the gods, these are the most desperate of times, and who is more mighty, and more ignorant, than the gods themselves?
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Garet Jax on September 10, 2014, 03:56:45 pm
After all, for the gods, these are the most desperate of times, and who is more mighty, and more ignorant, than the gods themselves?

Kellhus
Title: Re: O M G
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 12:41:58 pm
It was a rhetorical question :P