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31
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC SPOILERS] Tidbits from Wert
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 07:07:50 pm »
North of the Sea of Cerish is... a lot farther north than where I thought the Gates of Earwa were. I always assumed Emwama to be a Kian type desert people, rather than ranging in the far north.

Well, the 5 tribes likely had different ranges, but maybe this comes from the fact of the sort of "last known" Emwama are to the south and it's alluded that they might still have contact Jekhia (IIRC).

Since we know where Sil is/was, we know that the Braking of the Gates must have happened that far north.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 06:59:37 pm »
We know that Markless magic is a thing, if we're calling it thaumaturgy due to it being God(s) (markless) magic  then I'm cool with that.

Is the Chorae itself actually material in the function of the object Mimara created? I don't know if that's actually the case - but certainly it can be easier to change the function of something than to create from scratch. Mimara and Kellhus' thaumaturgy are obviously going to be invoked in different ways. Kellhus directs things to happen through force of thought, Mimara through force of will. She thaumatically wills the chorae to function as she needs.

Achamian is confused when he sees Kellhus floating and whatever else markless magic , so him having no useful insight for what Mimar did is no surprise.

Yeah, sorry, I am terrible with involving my own personal jargon into things.  Indeed, I refer to Magic of a "Divine" nature, and so Markless, as "thaumaturgy."  I think both those aspects are key, as the Pshke is Markless, but not what I would call thuamaturgy, specifically because the further factor of a Chorae not working on it.

Ultimately it's kind of unclear just what Kellhus is actually doing to get Markless sorcery.  It might be thuamaturgy, as I'd call it, via Ajokli, or it might actually be something like Titirga's proto-Pshke.

In any case, I think the end product is slightly different, because in Mimara's case, her "power" seems to be in Judgement, in "setting the frame" of the world.  In Ajokli (and maybe Kellhus') case, it's about manifest power over objects in the world.  But that could well just be part and parcel of the source of each of their "power."  Mimara's come from the Cubit, which is the "passive" Frame of the universe.  Ajokli, et al, comes from a very different place, metaphysically speaking, a place necessarily within the Frame of the Cubit.

Anyway, in the case of Emilidis, my guess, based on nothing at all, is that he was an amoral tinkerer and likely did what he did by ruthlessly trapping and exploiting souls.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC SPOILERS] Tidbits from Wert
« Last post by Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 06:46:59 pm »
North of the Sea of Cerish is... a lot farther north than where I thought the Gates of Earwa were. I always assumed Emwama to be a Kian type desert people, rather than ranging in the far north.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
« Last post by Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 06:42:05 pm »
We know that Markless magic is a thing, if we're calling it thaumaturgy due to it being God(s) (markless) magic  then I'm cool with that.

Is the Chorae itself actually material in the function of the object Mimara created? I don't know if that's actually the case - but certainly it can be easier to change the function of something than to create from scratch. Mimara and Kellhus' thaumaturgy are obviously going to be invoked in different ways. Kellhus directs things to happen through force of thought, Mimara through force of will. She thaumatically wills the chorae to function as she needs.

Achamian is confused when he sees Kellhus floating and whatever else markless magic , so him having no useful insight for what Mimar did is no surprise.
35
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Heron Spear?
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 06:22:23 pm »
Yeah the Nonmen in general were not to keen on Aporostic(?) practices.

Which I'm still interested in given Mimara's "miracle" against the Wight (I also really don't understand why people seem to think Mimara's first Chorae was "special"). I thought it pretty evident that she would see all Chorae as such with the Eye.

Well, because I am the sort of horse's ass who would quote myself:

But to return to what we were discussing, now the Spirit is the ledger, the Soul the stylus that writes upon it and the Body the vessel of the union.  This Spirit-as-ledger is how Mimaras Judging Eye functions.  Its view is the view to that ledger and in doing so, render judgment.  That is, human judgment.  Could it be then that Mimara's "power" to banish that Wight is similar to the sort of "thuamaturgy" we see Kellhus-Ajokli wield versus the Mutilated?  As in, a power not of Sorcery but of Divine providence.  That is to say, I somewhat disagree that Mimara's power is "setting the world" to a more "naturalistic" state.  Erwa's "natural state" is that of enchantment, a place where the dead can linger.  So, the Wight's position is eminently natural.  Which, of course it is, because it is

I would divide out is that her intentions and the God's intentions aren't specifically one.  That is to say that Mimara's intentions are still her own.  The God couldn't care less if the Wight stayed there or not.  But Mimara certainly did.  In this way, she is right to declare that she holds the Gates.  This is not divine justice carried out by Mimara.  No, this is Mimara's justice carried out by the divine.  That distinction is important, at least in my estimation, because it means that Mimara is the locus of Judgement, the Eye only a tool to that end.  The "stillborn" issue, it was pointed out to me, seems to be a linguistic play on words, in the same manner as owyn can kill the Witch King in LotR.  owyn is no man, rightly.  So, Mimara does carry a stillborn, just also a living baby as well.

What Mimara seems to be doing, rather, is waking the God.  That is, "fixing" the frame, such that the world is as it should be, by Mimara's judgement.  This might well be the role of the Judging Eye.  That is, the same role taken on by God-as-Christ, post-Job, in rendering the perspective of God from the mortal vantage.  That is, the infinite cannot have a perspective on itself, because it is all thing.  The Infinite cannot have any perspective, because it has all perspectives, which is no perspective at all.  (This could easily be bias on my part, as I have at other times personally noted that there is a plausible parallel of sorts between Mimara and a Christ-figure.) (There is also something about Mimara's role being specifically conscious, as oppossed to the passive unconscious role of The God.)

Now, to me, what remains is the question of why this process turns the Chorae into a tool of banishment though.

I think Aporetics is actually a key here, in that the Chorae is passive, by nature, that is, it simply undoes that it contacts.  However, Mimara's sort of thaumatury, wielden through the lens of the Chorae, turns it from a sort of aporetic "black hole," a devourer or undoer of the "un-natural frame," into a "white hole" that is, a beacon of Mimara's frame.  So, the Chorae should do nothing to the natural state of the topos and it's contents.  But not with Mimara, where she sets the frame, the natural paradoxical function of the Chorae is paradoxically inverted to Mimara's Judgement, perhaps.

I have no idea how this relates to the Heron Spear though.
36
Philosophy & Science / Re: The mindfulness conspiracy
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 06:00:36 pm »
Hmm if you're talking about Libet type experiments even Dennet has noted the flaws.

Admittedly I think a good bit of psychology has done little but show outcomes within a particular set and setting, which was then extrapolated as though the mind can be studied in the way of physics...and it's arguable there's a set & setting issue for the latter as well...

Right, it's definitely more complicated than we'd like.  Because it doesn't seem exactly clear, as far as I can tell, what "readiness potential" is telling us about consciousness, besides the fact that it seems to precede it.  Even more troublesome, along what Libet is saying (I think) is that there is no "readiness potential" for then not acting.  So, where does that come from?

I mean, there really is a reason why the "hard problem of consciousness" is exactly that, a hard problem.  I think, in my own terms, the idea of "free will" and the idea of "agency" are very different, but we conflate the two ideas as one thing.  I think we are not in possession of a "free will" because we are necessarily ensconced in an entire universe that is nothing if not relational.  So, unless we are of Substance and driven by Substance, we are bound by some relation to something, even if it is just "ourselves."  In contrast, I think it is relatively "clear" that we have agency and can act of "courses" that are, at least seemingly, internal to our "Selves."

Sorry, this message is all jargony and even worse, with my own personal jargon.  But I'm honestly just trying to work this out in my own head as it is....
37
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Psalm of Imimorl
« Last post by Wilshire on June 17, 2019, 05:50:11 pm »
The World to him, who sings my song,

for I am the Font, the Spirit of the Deepest Deep,

and mine is the first heart to beat your blood.

The World to him, who sings my song.

This is Imimorul saying anyone that sings his song (the rest of the poem?) will get the World.
And that he is the proginator of those singers, which could technically be either the Nonmen or Humans?


I, Imimorul, fled the Heavens,

so much did I love the brooks that chirrup,

the high mountains that hiss,

the myriads that bolt through this blessed hair,

Imimorul was a God of some description who loved the world, and so left Heaven (The Outside) to live among the Inside.


The World to him, who raises up rooves in the Deep.

I, Imimorul, did flee the Starving [sky], so much did I fear the Heavens,

the wrath of those who were wroth, who would forbid my love,

of the myriads of the World.

Worth noting that the depths of the world seem to be the beginning of the world, or at least the parts Imimorul loves most deeply.

Feeling the Sky once he's in the world, afraid that the heavens could see/stop him. So he flees underground.

"Myriads of the world" here meaning all the different things of the world? Living creatures, plants, the ground and the caverns.


The World to her, who kindles her fire in the Deep.
More about the Holy Deep, but who is "her".


I, Imimorul, did cut from my hand my fingers,

and from my arm, my hand, and from my body, my arm,

and these pieces of me I did place in the wombs of Lions,

so that I might dwell content in my own company.

He cuts off his fingers, hand, arm. Gives the bits to Lions. These bits become his children (dwelling in his own company). Unless they become his clones, to literally dwell in his own company.


And I became One-Armed, Imimorul, the Unshielded.

This might have some poetic meaning beyond the obvious "shielded" because he cut off his shield arm.



And you were as children to me,

the form of Gods as the issue of Lions, sons who would father nations,

and daughters who would mother the myriads of the World.

The phalanges he put into lions become his children who sired nations.
Interestingly, its the Men who fathered nations.

The Nonmen Women are something of an enigma even here. They did not mother nations, but rather became "the myriads of the World". Earlier, it looks like myriads is being used to describe the inaniment world, or maybe both the ground/depths itself as well the creatures living among it.

Also, these Nonmen from Lions are not from women. It could be the nonmen women are not necessarily human-analogue shaped. That the nonmen actually are birth from the beasts of the world. Though, I don't think this really fits in with the lore we assume we know.


And I sang to you such songs as are only heard in the highest of Heavens, and nowhere in the Hells.

We did weep together, as we sang, for woe cares not for names or glory only that skin blackens for bruising, breaks for blood.

Heaven and NOT Hell. There are at least two distinct possibilities, no more. I'm not sure what the ramifications are for a hell that has no songs of nonmen.

And a penchant for remembering only sorrow, blood, and pain. Maybe the Erratics are no so different than what Nonmen always became later in life?



The World to him, who sings my song.

Pretty clear, discussed initially above


The World to him, who finds me in the Deep.

A final reference to what is basically The Holy Deep. This, if its the Nonmen creation myth, really explains why they are obsessed with the underground. It seems they believe their God lives in the Earth, not the Sky.



The World to him, and woe.

The suffering motif to end it. Not redemption or Eden, only more sorrow.  Maybe this is why they seek oblivion as well, someplace that is neither the Woe that is their god, nor the Hunger that is the Gods.
38
General Earwa / Re: Inri Sejenus
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 05:41:18 pm »
Well, I think that it is, in no small part, an allusion by Bakker to the ancient idea of asology, in the sense that there was a belief that celestial events (like supernovea, comets and so on) marked "portenteous, or ominous" events in history.

So, there might well be some reason to be made that the pole star suddenly going (super)nova and increacing in brightness that actually is related to the Ark's arrival, or it could just be the the literary allusion to to the idea that it simply "must be" the case.

Also, it might possibly be an inversion of the idea of Star of Bethlehem, alluded to in the Hebrew bible, as what is called the Star Prophecy:

Quote
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

 Numbers 24:17

In this case though, the star signals the arrival of the exact opposite of the savior, in the Ark.  And, "coincidentally" is the place to which an "alleged savior" ascends, rather than has marking his arrival.  In the end, it's likely a "trick" to get us to ascribe "meaning" based on the historical precedents of these events in our cultural history.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Psalm of Imimorl
« Last post by H on June 17, 2019, 05:24:52 pm »
First of all, whats a "myriad"? It doesn't seem to be used in the normal sense meaning "a number of" (usually Many), but rather some kind of noun...

I think it might be two different contextual uses, although I can likely do it with one.

I, Imimorul, fled the Heavens,

so much did I love the brooks that chirrup,

the high mountains that hiss,

the myriads that bolt through this blessed hair,

This one is the most curious, but I part of it is that it is imply "many divisions."  Even though the idea of "bolting through" is not how we'd normally consider as the nature of division of hair.

I, Imimorul, did flee the Starving [sky], so much did I fear the Heavens,

the wrath of those who were wroth, who would forbid my love,

of the myriads of the World.

And you were as children to me,

the form of Gods as the issue of Lions, sons who would father nations,

and daughters who would mother the myriads of the World.[/i]

Here again though, I think this strongly implies a reading of "many divisions," as in many individuals, in use.  In the former case, as the many who were "wroth" and "who would forbid."  In the latter, the myriads are offspring, children to the "mother."  So, perhaps the aim here could be to draw the idea of hair on a body, being many divisions, then of the world, being divided into a "self" and "others," then the sort of "genesis" that is, the division born out through reproduction.
40
General Earwa / Re: Inri Sejenus
« Last post by stuslayer on June 17, 2019, 04:37:08 pm »
Agree on the overly destructive firepower and the possibility of confusion.

To clarify, my thought was not that the Inchies of the Ark were still in contact with the NailShip (as I am now calling it, because it sounds rock hard), rather that they had been sent on to 'prepare the way' by reduction to 144k, closing the Circle, before the Nailies come down to take over. As a sort of test of their commitment perhaps. It doesn't require them to have a direct link back to the NailShip, a brutal race can use brutal techniques with each other as well as their victims.
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