[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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MSJ

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« Reply #180 on: July 12, 2017, 08:44:16 pm »
Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?

I'm quite fine with Kellhus failed and he's dead as dead and TSTSNBN relies upon humanity saving humanity, sure. But, every morsel we've learned over 7 books suggest that Kellhus went on to the Outside. Wether that matters one iota or not, I guess, will ultimately lie in Bakker's hands. My only point is it wouldn't feel convoluted to me at all, there is a narrative precedence for Kellhus to be a God/Ciphrang who can effect tho he on Earwa and more importantly would know of the No-God. Its personal preference, yea. I can see it done well either way. But, I don't see it as plot armor.

Hiro, I see your point well enough. Its just I don't see how Kellhus being an entity on the Outside would solve or develop his arc. If anything it would be harder as Gods/Ciphrang lose power manifesting in Earwa.

Here's my take Ajokli abandons Kellhus before he's salted. so, no soul munching for Ajokli. It seems Ajokli even inhabits Cnaüir looking for Kellhus because he feels duped. So, this lends me to think Ajokli can't find Kellhus in the Outside and is a powerful being. We know that Kellhus spoke to Kellhus after the Circumfix under the tree. So, as time works in the Outside it would suggest Kellhus made it, imho. See, what I'm saying is there is textual narrative for this being the case. You might not like it, doesn't make it any less true.

I for one, would like humanity to save humanity in TSTSNBN. I think that would be the best route Bakker could go. That they learn from the mistakes of a false prophet (in their eyes, he was ultimately trying to save Earwa imho.) and take it upon themselves to take the world back. Then maybe Kellhus if in the Outside could defeat the 100 and give humanity a chance for salvation, by making the God whole, so to say.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:04:34 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Hiro

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« Reply #181 on: July 12, 2017, 09:02:56 pm »
Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?

I'm quite fine with Kellhus failed and he's dead as dead and TSTSNBN relies upon humanity saving humanity, sure. But, every morsel we've learned over 7 books suggest that Kellhus went on to the Outside. Wether that matters one iota or not, I guess, will ultimately lie in Bakker's hands. My only point is it wouldn't feel convoluted to me at all, there is a narrative precedence for Kellhus to be a God/Ciphrang who can effect tho he on Earwa and more importantly would know of the No-God. Its personal preference, yea. I can see it done well either way. But, I don't see it as plot armor.

It's certainly true that it is not without precedent. Whether it would be interesting, there are opinions differ.
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JRControl

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« Reply #182 on: July 12, 2017, 09:05:25 pm »
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.
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MSJ

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« Reply #183 on: July 12, 2017, 09:05:33 pm »
I added to my post. I'm fine either way. As long as its done right.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #184 on: July 12, 2017, 09:09:03 pm »
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.

Me too. Ultimately, I think he would have been seen as damned as much as Cnaüir if not more. Remember, as I been saying ignorance is innocence and is said throughout the books the things most holy. Kellhus is certainly full of Knowledge and conspiring with Gods. He's a hunger, no doubt. But, I do believe his goal to save humanity might've had some effect on his salvation/salvation. Not much though, me thinks.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #185 on: July 13, 2017, 06:55:02 pm »
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.

I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.

And I agree, its maddening.
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« Reply #186 on: July 13, 2017, 07:18:02 pm »
I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.

And I agree, its maddening.

I guess it is a microcosm of "real life."  We rarely ever get to know the full "why" or sometimes even the full "how."

It's all very Cormac McCarthy, which doesn't surprise me, considering Bakker has mentioned Blood Meridian before.  How there aren't really an end, just places where the narrative runs out.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #187 on: July 13, 2017, 07:28:39 pm »
I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.

And I agree, its maddening.

I guess it is a microcosm of "real life."  We rarely ever get to know the full "why" or sometimes even the full "how."

It's all very Cormac McCarthy, which doesn't surprise me, considering Bakker has mentioned Blood Meridian before.  How there aren't really an end, just places where the narrative runs out.

I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.

I have not read Cormac McCarthy.
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« Reply #188 on: July 13, 2017, 07:41:03 pm »
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.

I have not read Cormac McCarthy.

Blood Meridian is certainly a tour de force.  That doesn't mean it is a book for everyone.  Obviously I would recommend it, because there are several things that McCarthy does that Bakker clearly emulates, like evoking something of scriptural tone and  theodicy (or something like it that I obviously don't know a smart word for).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #189 on: July 13, 2017, 08:32:57 pm »
I don't mind Kellhus failing, but I mind being left completely in the dark as to his real motivations. Was he hungry for power or did he just do a deal with the devil to save the world or a bit of both? More than anything else this bothers me. The book is strewn about with various indicators that he's just dunyaining it up AND that he cares. It's just maddening not to know what's going on with him morally after 7 books and possibly waiting years for any additional clues that might not even come. I WANTED JUDGEMENT.

I get the disheartening feeling that few answers will ever be given. Enough for one to make a guess, but nothing for sure.

And I agree, its maddening.

As the series went along I found that it was a little easier to parse what Kellhus's intentions were and when he was playing coy. He told Esme he was saving humanity, then made it clear in the Golden Room that was his intentions also. I guess there is still an interpretation that exists, that Kellhus duped Ajokli and not the other way around, which is plausible. But, alas, as Wishire says, I doubt we ever find out, tbh.

On, another note, I've seen speculation on when the next series will pick up. I hope that it does so, not long after TAE left off. I think you need Akka, Mimara and Esme to have the series to be at its best. IMO, I also think thematically it makes sense the a Seswatha incarnation be involved in saving the world.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #190 on: July 14, 2017, 05:58:06 am »
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.

I have not read Cormac McCarthy.

Blood Meridian is certainly a tour de force.  That doesn't mean it is a book for everyone.  Obviously I would recommend it, because there are several things that McCarthy does that Bakker clearly emulates, like evoking something of scriptural tone and  theodicy (or something like it that I obviously don't know a smart word for).


Isn't Blood Meridian a western? Or, is it also fantasy too? I looked into it and thought it was a take on a Western, I could be wrong, and hell it might be fantastic. Westerns is just a genre I've never delved into.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Hiro

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« Reply #191 on: July 14, 2017, 06:35:00 am »
I am not the least bit surprised, and not really disappointing. To have fully expected otherwise would be either wishful thinking or simply not paying much attention.

I have not read Cormac McCarthy.

Blood Meridian is certainly a tour de force.  That doesn't mean it is a book for everyone.  Obviously I would recommend it, because there are several things that McCarthy does that Bakker clearly emulates, like evoking something of scriptural tone and  theodicy (or something like it that I obviously don't know a smart word for).


Isn't Blood Meridian a western? Or, is it also fantasy too? I looked into it and thought it was a take on a Western, I could be wrong, and hell it might be fantastic. Westerns is just a genre I've never delved into.


It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.

It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.

His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.
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MSJ

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« Reply #192 on: July 14, 2017, 06:39:50 am »
It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.

It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.

His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.

Thank you, Hiro! I have it on my Kindle because it's talked about so much around here. Yet, I've never even downloaded it onto any of my devices yet. I'm reading Red Sister by Lawrence right now and don't know how I'm feeling about it 4 chapters in. Maybe ill give Cormac a go, sounds like my fare.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Deustriplo

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« Reply #193 on: July 14, 2017, 09:41:47 am »
Here we go...
The tale is done.
Many, many seasons ago, when I first picked up the The Darkness That Comes Before I was enthralled. I found it a fascinating read. One that cemented Bakker as one of my all time favourite writers on par with Philip K. Dick. I embarked on the journey of The Coming of the Second Apocalypse. These books will forever be some of my favourites.
The world, the insights into human culture and habits, into our needs and wants, into philosophy, even metaphysics, fascinated me and I know I will return to read these books over and over again through my life and follow these characters tracks time and time again.

The tale of Khellus. That is what these books were about for me as a reader at their core. He was what captured me more than anything else. And in a way I am content to know what lies at the end of the journey. The journey he took after the first steps into the wilderness, out of Ishual so many years ago now.

TDTCB and TWP are my favourite books of this magnificent tale. The Aspect Emperor series did not capture my imagination as much as the Prince of Nothing did. But I digress.

TUC was the end of a journey for me. And even though it gave me closure I cannot feel but disappointed. And a part of me "feels" this is not the tale Bakker set out to write so many years ago.

- An intellect/power such a Khellus, having achieved the impossible, leaves Celmonas alive? Really? Because of Esmenet?
"His darkness?" Come on. I did not get it at all. At the eve of the greatest battle the world has ever seen he spends that much power to save Esmenet?
Okay fair enough I will suspend believe for a few heartbeats. But why? What was the reason behind it? Nothing was ever done without reason by this character.
Why would he return to "save" her? It makes no sense and goes against the core of what the character is imo. And again makes no sense his decisions over Celmonas.

- What was the point of Cnaiur urs Skiotha at all as a character in this series? Seemed only to exist to appease the fans who wanted him returned. I cant' think of anything done with this character that influenced the narrative or outcome. It lessened him as a character and he deserved better imo.

- Massive cliffhanger or simply an easy way out? I guess it will work both ways. If there is enough clamour for a return to the series there is enough ambiguity in the end to have another trilogy, if not Bakker can always say "It is done..."
Either way I, as a reader, do not care for the next installment. It would simply be stretching a good thing for the sake of stretching it and dilute it as I feel the Aspect Emperor Series diluted the Prince of Nothing.

In fact there shouldn't be another installment. The world has been emptied of fighting men by the Ordeal.
Enough souls and sins have now been sacrificed and committed surely, that the World is now Shut to the Outside?
The Consul won. The No God Walks again. What happens to Cnaiur urs Skiotha after he walks through the horde shows that. "Nothing..."

There are several other plots throughout the Aspect Emperor series I never understood or thought made sense but it is not important now. What the hell was the point of the White Luck Warrior for instance? (the worse book of the whole series for me?) I don't get it.

Overall I think it was an amazing journey, flawed towards the end,very flawed but amazing. Bakker is one of the best writers alive today and I thank him for the world and characters he created for our enjoyment. Hope he moves into a new project and reinvents himself.

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« Reply #194 on: July 14, 2017, 11:28:43 am »
It is a western. A dark one doesn't come close to describe it. Ink-black, primal-primordial, existential-poetic; perhaps.

It's a tough one. You could consider starting with McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses. Less bleak and stark. Albeit, not a walk in the park either.

His style is unique and worthwhile exploring.

You could probably start with No Country for Old Men too, if you really wanted.

But I guess I should have pointed out the genre difference though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira