The Celmomian Prophecy

  • 82 Replies
  • 7629 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 05:13:24 pm »
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5721
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 05:28:13 pm »
I asked Bakker about it in the AMA and he responded with this "The Trickster is as eternal as any of the other Gods.". This answer doesn't make any sense though and I'm wondering if he misread my question.
Misdirection - he's the (T)rickster. Classic non-answer though :P
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2017, 08:16:13 pm »
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Now, this is very plausible explanation, but also a highly undramatic one. My own wee little guess is that the series, at the time Celmomian Prophecy was written, wasn't planned that far ahead, so Bakker wasn't resolved on the idea that Nau-Cayuti wasn't dead and instead became the No-God, so he wrote him as if he had died and gone with the Gods; but there might be more to it. I don't think it's just Gods tricking Celmomas or him dreaming. It really was Nau-Cayuti, or another Anasurimbor who resembled him enough that Celmomas thought it was him...

One who gets to ride with the Gods, outside Earwa's spectrum of time...

Hmm...

Yeah, I think it's Kellhus, who is going to become a literal God eventually in the series, and cause the Prophecy. But it's doubtful whether Celmomian Prophecy was actually neccessary for Kellhus's rise to power - if it didn't exist, Achamian would've still been surprised at seeing an Anasurimbor, and would still have been possessed by Kellhus regardless of any prophecy convincing him of Kellhus's prophetiness. Still, since it happened, it has to happen.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5721
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 08:21:34 pm »
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2591
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 08:55:46 pm »
Could be that the true legacy of the Celmomian Prophesy was that it lead Seswatha to do the whole thing with the Heart and the Dreams. Only in the absence of those things would Kellhus showing up to the Three Seas have been more underwhelming...

Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.

Sure but lets not forget that Moe Sr. failed.  If Kellhus does not gain the Gnosis, then his power is greatly diminished and he probably fails too.  It was really only through the overwhelming power he gains from the Meta-Gnosis can he actually conquer the whole Three Seas, which is what makes the Ordeal possible.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5721
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2017, 09:02:19 pm »
True, but he probably could have started with the anagogis. From there he could still learn the gnosis by either making that leap himself to some kind of gnosis-lite and then onto to the gnosis proper by subsuming the Mandate in some way.

If no Kellhus, Moenghus wins the holy war by a large margin and the only schools left are basically the Cishaurim and the Mandate.

Things might have worked out better with true son Kellhus spending most of the Holy War squirreled away in a prison somewhere in Sumna, breaking out, learning all the sorcery while Maithanet and Moenghus subsume the three Seas. Then there's this great Father/Son team that takes on the consult...

its just such a rabbit hole there's little use in such an exercise lol.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2017, 09:06:10 pm »
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2284
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2017, 10:09:53 pm »
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2017, 10:15:01 pm »
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.

But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?

And I doubt the Celmomian Prophecy is that common; I don't think I remember any character mentioning it other than the Schoolmen. Certainly, nobody reacts with the same dread as Achamian did when Kellhus introduces himself as an Anasurimbor. In any case, it's also unlikely that Moenghus, who was more of an orthodox Dunyain compared to Kellhus, would've believed in a prophecy - at no point does he imply that he has lost faith in the principle of before and after.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2284
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2017, 10:32:35 pm »
1) a given, I believe the few can recognize the few. Its a good question, I will say that. But, everything in PoN adds up to Kellhus gaining the gnosis.

2) In PoN they go on and on about the ramblings of mandate schools and the Consult. Proyas and Xinemus both knew what Akka thought when he first heard the name Anasurrimbor. And, Mandati went all over the Three Seas preaching the return of the Consult and I'm sure the Prophecy came about much. To me, it felt like common knowledge, especially among nobility. T hats how I took it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2017, 10:49:16 pm »
Quote from: Cuttlefish
Speaking of rabbit holes, you seem to have assumed that it was a given that Kellhus could learn magic; but as I understand it, there is no order to who is one of the Few and who isn't. It's more than likely that in Moenghus's plan, Kellhus was never meant to become a god-like wizard, but rather the ruler of the material world by possessing the empire that'd be born after the Holy War; it's also likely that Moenghus knew nothing of the Celmomian Prophecy.

Both are false. Moe was banking on Kellhus chosing the Gnosis. Remember Maithanet wrote Proyas a letter to make sure Akka was accommodated at any cost. It stunned Proyas. Gnostics was always part of the TTT and Akka was always meant to be his tutor.

And, is bet the house that almost everyone on Earwa new of the Celmommian prophecy. The prattle of crazy schoolmen and their ghosts. It was not a secret.

But how did Moenghus know that Kellhus was one of the Few?

And I doubt the Celmomian Prophecy is that common; I don't think I remember any character mentioning it other than the Schoolmen. Certainly, nobody reacts with the same dread as Achamian did when Kellhus introduces himself as an Anasurimbor. In any case, it's also unlikely that Moenghus, who was more of an orthodox Dunyain compared to Kellhus, would've believed in a prophecy - at no point does he imply that he has lost faith in the principle of before and after.
I think the frequency of the Few is much higher among the Dûnyain, and Moënghus probably gambled on that.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2284
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2017, 11:35:30 pm »
I think i know how Moe knew. Kellhus is one of the few. I could be wrong, and correct me if I am, but the dreams Moe sent to Ishual. I think both the sender and the receiver have to be of the few for the Cants of Calling to work. And, I agree with Tleilaxu, Kellhus and Anasurrimbor's are subject or have a disposition to being the few.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:38:26 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2017, 11:53:35 pm »
My own theory was also that it was something to do with the dream he sent to Kellhus at Ishual; but this is all a huge gamble on Moenghus's part. If the Cant doesn't work on those who don't possess talent for magic, and Kellhus wasn't of the Few - what then? Was he just going to try to think of another Dunyain who might possess the Holy War he was conditioning, until hitting one who happened to be of the Few? Doesn't seem like a Dunyain-esque plan. And I don't think we can say for a fact that Anasurimbors have an inclination towards being of the Few; of Kellhus's children, only one (and not the one that possessed most of the strength) had the talent. (I think Kelmomas had it too, right?)

But I think the notion of a Great Ordeal led by one who is not of the Few has merit. After all, didn't Kellhus beget a child from Esmenet as a contingency; a child that was not of the Few? Even without mastering the metaphysical, a Dunyain's power over the world is spectacular, and could possibly move Schools of magic to do his bidding against the Consult (which is what I expected Kellhus to do, but no, he wanted to solo them).

Another interesting thing to consider is whether Maithanet was one of the Few. I imagine there has been a dedicated thread to this before, and I don't remember if it was conclusively established whether he was or not; Achamian thought so in their first encounter because Maithanet could tell that he was a Schoolman, but in retrospect, he could've just read it off of his face.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2284
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2017, 11:57:04 pm »
Yes, Mathenet was one of the few. Few recognizes the few.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2017, 12:00:33 am »
Eh, but even then, Kellhus is still Kellhus. Even if he was thrown in prison with Cnaiur - well Moenghus Sr. did fine without the benefit of his name so it would have probably shaken out similarly regardless. These 'what if' scenario's get confusing quick.

Also, thinking on this, consider the fact that Kellhus knew for a fact that the Dunyain would end up possessing the Consult. True, some are weaker than others (like the ones the Survivor mentions, that were overwhelmed and just stopped functioning when the Consult besieged Ishual), but for the most part, there is nothing in the material world that the Conditioned can't conquer.

Anyway, I am getting really off topic with these. The question is, why was it Nau-Cayuti that spoke to Celmomas at his death? There are three possibilities, to sum up what was suggested:

a) It's the Gods speaking to him as if they are Nau-Cayuti. I don't see why the Gods would do that, though, it's not like they care to manipulate him or appease a dying man. They're not that nice.

b) He is just imagining it. Doesn't seem dramatic enough to be true; in fiction, stuff like this has to fit together.

c) It really was Nau-Cayuti. Which then raises the question - how did his soul end up there after becoming the No-God?

d) It was Kellhus or another Anasurimbor. We'll need more info on this before believing it, though.

Also consider that Celmomas considers the things Nau-Cayuti says as being "sweet", IIRC. He might consider it sweet because it confirms his line won't die out, or because the implication is that it is an Anasurimbor that will save the world.