"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #135 on: December 22, 2018, 02:58:17 am »
Personally I feel Bakker just thought Zero-God sounded cool.

For a long time I thought most of the stuff I was reading was just some very cool shit  :D

Before joining this community, I thought having the Mark/being too smart making you damned was R's commentary/criticism of modern day devotees having to dumb themselves down to adhere to their faith, a sarcastic nod to only the ignorant could be saved as it requires, intentional or not, refuting truths to make it work.
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« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2018, 01:56:37 pm »
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2018, 03:37:51 pm »
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Still confused with "loss" - I think I've interpreted that incorrectly as loss being suffering/pain/actually losing something/someone and/or loss of love or loved ones. The context with which loss is discussed here makes me think it's something else, like loss of identity or consciousness?
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« Reply #138 on: December 26, 2018, 10:59:44 pm »
Still confused with "loss" - I think I've interpreted that incorrectly as loss being suffering/pain/actually losing something/someone and/or loss of love or loved ones. The context with which loss is discussed here makes me think it's something else, like loss of identity or consciousness?

Well, loss is just what I imagine to be a major part of the role of the Logos.  That is, the Logos is something that "positively" "builds."  So, forging your identity is something of a loss.  Even though, if you imagine it differently, it's could actually be considered a "return."  So, it depends on how you want to frame the approaching an Infinite God.  Since Koringhus is pretty intent on refuting the Logos and the path of the Logos, I'd tend to frame it as a "loss," that is a "negation" of the "positive," or perhaps more accurately, the synthetically generative role of The Mind, Reason or Logos.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2019, 04:03:52 pm »
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Curiously the opposite of traditional religious concepts - where suicide leads irrevocable damnation. In this case, seemingly according to Koringhus, it might be the only way to avoid damnation.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2019, 04:16:44 pm »
"Zero" is the "placeholder" for the idea of Infinite through no differentiation.

So "Zero" more as a place or state than a value. By reaching, learning, becoming more, chasing the infinite, we are distancing ourselves from the Cubit thereby making it more likely we'll be damned ( unable to "find" our way back ).

Something along those lines.  Recall that Koringhus uses the term "Zero" because he expressly "distrusts" Akka's definition: God.  That is, Koringhus distrusts the idea of the "personality" of God and trusts more an abstract concept.  In a way, this is a "more" true representation of God, even if the actual mathematical aspect fails basic math.

The biggest "aim" of it is to highlight that to take your "place" in the scheme of the infinite is not a process of gain, as the Logos would have it, rather is the hallmark of loss.  Of course, this is spiced with the realization that there is no "you" and that individuality is part of what needs to be abandoned.

Curiously the opposite of traditional religious concepts - where suicide leads irrevocable damnation. In this case, seemingly according to Koringhus, it might be the only way to avoid damnation.

Well, it is the fast track back home given this cubit stuff.
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2019, 01:51:05 pm »
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.

Wilshire

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« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2019, 04:04:52 pm »
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.
That does seem to be the way things lean towards.

Besides, the Dunyain seem to struggle with non-logical paths, and specifically Madness and Hatred. They also suffer from an over abundance of confidence and an inability to see flaws in their plans. Also also the inherent instability of a massive amount of assumptions based on increasingly finer and finer statistical models utilizing smaller and smaller groups...

All combined to indicate that some totally bonkers suicide-resurrection thing with low low likelihood of succeeding would be exactly the type of thing a traditional cadre of dunyain would fall victim too. Its just like Moe Sr. writ large, misunderstanding Kellhus'  Madness.

The question really is whether or not Kellhus was able to circumnavigate the influence of Ajokli and the other hundred.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2019, 04:11:25 pm »
Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

Is not that somehow similar to a situation in which the mutilated started? Prisoners of the Consult, neck-deep in the enemy's territory and plans. If Kellhus would hi-jack the body of a random skinspy or even one of the mutilated, that is where his magnificent bastard villain anti-hero hero card will play in it's full strength. The plan A is to crush the inhabitants of the Arc with sheer power of sorceror schools. The plan B is to ruin them from within when they finially considered themselves victors.
That does seem to be the way things lean towards.

Besides, the Dunyain seem to struggle with non-logical paths, and specifically Madness and Hatred. They also suffer from an over abundance of confidence and an inability to see flaws in their plans. Also also the inherent instability of a massive amount of assumptions based on increasingly finer and finer statistical models utilizing smaller and smaller groups...

All combined to indicate that some totally bonkers suicide-resurrection thing with low low likelihood of succeeding would be exactly the type of thing a traditional cadre of dunyain would fall victim too. Its just like Moe Sr. writ large, misunderstanding Kellhus'  Madness.

The question really is whether or not Kellhus was able to circumnavigate the influence of Ajokli and the other hundred.
Bros... Kellhus is dead. He failed. Ajokli failed. He might've been a prodigy among Dūnyain but there are FOUR of them left ruling the Consult. It's not going to happen.

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« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2019, 04:32:15 pm »
I don't think the "point" of Kellhus' failure is that he comes back to life or anything.  But Bakker's "dead not done" statement likely means that he will still be influential on events even from a discorporate Outside state.

He might well be King of the Ciphrang and I don't think it's clear how that would work out.  He might even be a Ciphrang capable of still preforming Sorcery or something.  Who knows.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2019, 05:17:10 pm »
Well Bakker's comments are always of dubious usefulness, if not outright misleading (intentionally or unintentionally). Still fun to speculate.
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« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2019, 05:46:20 pm »
Well Bakker's comments are always of dubious usefulness, if not outright misleading (intentionally or unintentionally). Still fun to speculate.

Right, I mean, I just take it as a very basic level meaning of, "Kellhus will still be a factor in the story."

That could be anything from just people remembering him, to things he had already in motion playing out, to literal resurrection.

Given that I am biased and don't think Kellhus is the series' "Christ-figure" I stop short of buying the resurrection angle though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Francis Buck

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« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2019, 12:29:45 am »
I think the role of Kellhus going forward will be minimal in quantity, but profound in consequence. By the time of TUC, Kellhus possesses such power and knowledge of the World that literally the only thing that can stop him is literally the No-God (and in my view Ajokli was just as blindsided as Kellhus, though IMO when mortals become the Vessel for a God it's not that the deity is really even "overtaking" the mortal per se, but that the mortal's intent is in unison with deity in question). 

And the phrase "Dead but no done" is something I can't help but take rather seriously in a series where death is not, in fact, the end. This is bolstered even further by the confirmation that Kellhus ISN'T in the Outside, since the only option is that he now remains in the World somehow (we can rule out Oblivion for the moment, since then Kellhus would be well and truly "done").

TaoHorror

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« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2019, 01:26:22 am »
I think the role of Kellhus going forward will be minimal in quantity, but profound in consequence. By the time of TUC, Kellhus possesses such power and knowledge of the World that literally the only thing that can stop him is literally the No-God (and in my view Ajokli was just as blindsided as Kellhus, though IMO when mortals become the Vessel for a God it's not that the deity is really even "overtaking" the mortal per se, but that the mortal's intent is in unison with deity in question). 

And the phrase "Dead but no done" is something I can't help but take rather seriously in a series where death is not, in fact, the end. This is bolstered even further by the confirmation that Kellhus ISN'T in the Outside, since the only option is that he now remains in the World somehow (we can rule out Oblivion for the moment, since then Kellhus would be well and truly "done").

It's possible his "not done" refers to his TTT/plans, but I agree, he's somewhere ( I thought he went into a decapitant after I finished reading it, before discussing here in TSA, but that idea I think has been vetted against - been awhile since our last discussion this, memory is hazy ).
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Redeagl

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« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2019, 06:36:30 am »
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers