"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2019, 05:41:44 pm »
^ Bakker said that the TTT has " run it's course".
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2tau4/
Just wanted to add my take on this.  TTT as originally envisioned by Moe had the Great Ordeal encountering setback after setback and would eventually meet with disaster.  So from a broad perspective, Kell's handling of TGO is still on track.  That's why I think TTT wasn't ever overturned.  Kell might have brought it further but the actual plan still went through to completion. 

I also cite the unnamed entity again.  To fight the God one must raze the fields.  So TTT is also on the same path as the entity's war with the God.

Anyway what do people have to say about this very early quote from Baker?
But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the most
redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the most
important character in the book.

Unless Serwe does something else in the next series or is representative of some meta Outside shenanigans, I don't see how she can in any way be the most important character.  So I'm making a leap here and saying her outright faith in Kell is somehow important.

Wilshire

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« Reply #151 on: March 18, 2019, 06:15:34 pm »
I think you've misinterpreted Moe's TTT. I don't think we ever found out Moe's ultimate goal/predictions specifically, but IIRC he largely couldn't predict much of anything past the Circumfixtion, but essentially knew without Kell he'd fail, so hoped Kell would make it alive to him, unite humanity under one religion (the specific one was irrelevant) then rise up to challenge the Consult before it was too late.

Kellhus' "takeover" of the Thought was basically removing Moe from the plan and re-formulating it with this own flare. In specifics it might have been different but in generalities it was mostly the same. The Thought was constructed

Generally speaking, I think most of everything Bakker has ever said is either purposefully misleading (recent stuff in the last few years), or unaware of the specifics (older info from way back) which is now irrelevant or largely misleading. Regarding Serwe, whatever she was supposed to be, I think it was intended to be very clear by now. Thus, I think Serwe's whole thing was being the sympathetic catalyst which ends up uniting all of humanity against the consult. Yes, that's mundane and uninteresting, but I think that's all there is too it - things aren't always as complicated as we make them out to be.

Keep in mind his Serwe comments were largely as a rebuttal to the online stuff happening surrounding him at the time. I think Bakker has shown time and again a pretty extreme misunderstanding of the people he's talking to or trying to reach out too, and most probably (imo) the serwe comment was worded very poorly to begin with and is now taken out of context in the Earwa online noosphere.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:36:39 pm by Wilshire »
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Rots

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« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2019, 07:14:17 pm »
@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2019, 08:49:59 pm »
@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.
This really resonates with me, Rots. Similarly, I no longer completely trust Bakker as a story-teller, and, as you note, that's probably the position in which he wants to place his readers. It's a very modern, or perhaps even a modernist approach to fiction.
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« Reply #154 on: April 13, 2019, 12:16:46 pm »
Generally speaking, I think most of everything Bakker has ever said is either purposefully misleading (recent stuff in the last few years), or unaware of the specifics (older info from way back) which is now irrelevant or largely misleading. Regarding Serwe, whatever she was supposed to be, I think it was intended to be very clear by now. Thus, I think Serwe's whole thing was being the sympathetic catalyst which ends up uniting all of humanity against the consult. Yes, that's mundane and uninteresting, but I think that's all there is too it - things aren't always as complicated as we make them out to be.

Keep in mind his Serwe comments were largely as a rebuttal to the online stuff happening surrounding him at the time. I think Bakker has shown time and again a pretty extreme misunderstanding of the people he's talking to or trying to reach out too, and most probably (imo) the serwe comment was worded very poorly to begin with and is now taken out of context in the Earwa online noosphere.

Cue FB's Earwa's Original Sin commentary. Though, I personally think "something something pure ignorance" is more her narrative antecedent and I've always liked that "the reader has Serwe in their hands and Kellhus in their heads" (badly paraphrased) quote, as per those aforementioned out of text contemporary commentaries.

@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.

Nice to see you around again, Rots. It would be nice to communicate in The Agora sometime, given my lack of time to post in the past two years :( (though, I'm working on it).

@Wilshire - i agree w/your comments re: Bakker. At this point i find him to be an intentionally undependable narrator of his own story in a lot of ways. Im sure he would tell me that my loss of faith in him would be his goal and that i am now better off.

Ill buy whatever, if anything, comes next but im much more neutral towards the author and thus the work.
This really resonates with me, Rots. Similarly, I no longer completely trust Bakker as a story-teller, and, as you note, that's probably the position in which he wants to place his readers. It's a very modern, or perhaps even a modernist approach to fiction.

He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 12:19:00 pm by Madness »
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #155 on: April 15, 2019, 04:25:29 pm »
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.

Wilshire

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« Reply #156 on: April 15, 2019, 04:39:29 pm »
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.

Well I find Wolfe unreadable. Not sure if that says anything about either though.
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« Reply #157 on: April 16, 2019, 07:36:40 pm »
He claims to have avoided the postmodernist pitfalls a la Gene Wolfe, BFK, but I'm never sure.

The Wolfe only prepares those pitfalls, it is the reader who stumbles!

It is the reader who stumbles.

What is the supposed this supposed "post-Modern pitfall" that Wolfe allegedly falls into? 

Genuinely wondering,
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Wilshire

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« Reply #158 on: April 18, 2019, 03:00:42 pm »
RIP Gene Wolfe btw, he died this week. :(
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