Trying to solve the Whodunit? (As in who is Damned?)

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sciborg2

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« on: August 27, 2013, 10:27:33 pm »
Bakker has referred to this series as a metaphysical whodunit, but do we have enough definitive clues to answer "Who is Damned?"

A big challenge to this, from my perspective, is we don't have much objective information.

Perhaps smarter minds than mine can figure out how to use the subjective evidence of all the varied PoVs to piece together an answer?
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 10:33:39 pm »
Hah, Sci. I can see we're both posting here and Westeros at the same time. You just answered a question I asked over there not a minute ago.

EDIT:

What I said over on Westeros:

Has Bakker himself described it as thus (as in, as he actually described it as a metaphysical whodunit)?

The thing is, I think a lot of people have probably already guessed the broad strokes of the story, the problem being that (as you recently stated) the whole damn thing is so ambiguous that even if you actually did figure it out, there are too many unanswered questions for any kind of certainty (heh).

I mean, I honestly think Bakker himself could come in here right now under a different name and just lay out the basics of the series, piece by piece, and a lot of people would still take issue with it. Until that shit's in text, in a book, and the series is done, everything's up for grabs.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 10:40:11 pm by Francis Buck »

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 10:54:46 pm »

I mean, I honestly think Bakker himself could come in here right now under a different name and just lay out the basics of the series, piece by piece, and a lot of people would still take issue with it. Until that shit's in text, in a book, and the series is done, everything's up for grabs. [/i]

I particularly love this quote right here, and fully agree with it. I absolutist believe that Bakker under alias, singing revelation and truth, would be condemned by the community at large. Also, when pressed to defend this or that point, I'm sure more than a few people could poke holes in any theory brought forth. Like you mentioned, until its written in the book, its all ambiguous.
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sciborg2

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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 12:30:24 am »
Quote
Hah, Sci. I can see we're both posting here and Westeros at the same time. You just answered a question I asked over there not a minute ago.

Yeah I'll think of something there but am starting to make more posts here as so many conversations about the series don't have room to breathe in just one Bakker thread. :-)

On the topic of damnation we have everyone's competing beliefs with some anecdotal evidence that I plan to dig into, though not necessarily in order:

-Meppa sees into the Outside.
-Psatma's soul has apparently been to the Outside and back.
-Kellhus as been to the Outside with his physical body.
-Mimara has a Judging Eye that apparently sees damnation.
-The Inverse Fire
-A Ciphrang saying Iyokus will be damned for summoning it. Iyokus says that is his fate regardless, yet Eli is very surprised that he'll be damned.
-Gin'y is damned.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 06:47:19 pm by sciborg2 »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 01:13:35 am »
Sorry but... Gin'y?
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sciborg2

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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 01:25:45 am »
Sorry but... Gin'y?

King Gin'yursis of Cil-Aujas.

Some thoughts on the Inverse Fire - Looking at the passages in which Shae describes his experience, this particular part stands out:

Quote
All that mattered, the Ground’s only consequential thing, was what he had seen…

Damnation.

Experience shredded into a thousand strings, each clawed and burned and burned, sucked like bottomless bones. Agony. Anguish. Horror. Lament. Shame… Shrieking-thrashing-screaming through the throat of his every memory, innumerable and one, groaning-choking-vomiting, his every particle a unique agony, a bereavement, a weeping-howling-scratching out eyes that grew and grew to witness anew, while burning-blistering-breaking–

He simultaneously talks about he's seen, and what's experienced. Seems like looking into the IF makes him experience his own damnation.

But then how does he know that it is his damnation? The knowledge here seems to be born of some kind of personal gnosis, where one ascribes the quality of Truth to the experience.

This is exactly what people feel in Kellhus's presence, where anyone who spends time with him begins to think he just might be divine.

The profoundness of the experience is taken as proof, yet this is what we've been warned against time and time again by the text.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 01:26:16 am »
Gin'yursis, the Wight-in-the-Mountain.

ETA: Damn Sci!

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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 03:42:32 am »
Sorry but... Gin'y?

King Gin'yursis of Cil-Aujas.
wow missed that one.


But then how does he know that it is his damnation? The knowledge here seems to be born of some kind of personal gnosis, where one ascribes the quality of Truth to the experience.

This is exactly what people feel in Kellhus's presence, where anyone who spends time with him begins to think he just might be divine.

The profoundness of the experience is taken as proof, yet this is what we've been warned against time and time again by the text.
This is pretty brilliant, and not all too different with what people do every day. In my experience, most people tend to think that if a lot of people believe something, then it must be true. Same principle is going on here, mistaking quantity (in this case suffering or happiness) for truth. The amount makes no difference on how true it is... Though I guess in Earwa that might not be true. Ok well at least the quality/intensity of something shouldn't affect its truth.

As the reader we fall into a simple trap. Since the character so passionately believes his own thoughts we assume that it simply must be true. How could so much passion be wrong?
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 02:55:42 pm »
Yeah I'll think of something there but am starting to make more posts here as so many conversations about the series don't have room to breathe in just one Bakker thread. :-)

+1.

On the topic of damnation we have everyone's competing beliefs with some anecdotal evidence that I plan to dig into, though not necessarily in order:

-Cleric sees into the Outside.
-Psatma's soul has apparently been to the Outside and back.
-Kellhus as been to the Outside with his physical body.
-Mimara has a Judging Eye that apparently sees damnation.
-The Inverse Fire
-A Ciphrang saying Iyokus will be damned for summoning it. Iyokus says that is his fate regardless, yet Eli is very surprised that he'll be damned.
-Gin'y is damned.

- Where does Cleric see into the Outside? You mean Meppa?
- Malowebi suggests that Psatma stands with a foot in the Outside.
- Kellhus' travel to the Outside has not been distinguished. Wilshire and I had some back and forth. Consider whether it is soul travel, where the body stays rooted in the World (which Walking the Shadow Way with Xinemus and Achamian discounts this, suggesting that travel in the World Between allows for souls carrying bodies from one point in the physical world to another - like Erikson's Warrens, though those seem to speak to parallel worlds), or bodily travel where the body simply travels to the Outside as you've suggested and Kellhus blinks in and out of Worldly existence (which I find elegant and simple).

Also, aside, I wonder how prevalent sorcerers who believe in Damnation are, outside of the Mandate. Is there a reason to assume you are Damned as a sorcerer, if you don't believe in the religious hueuy that gives premise to those convinctions?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 03:07:24 pm »
Is Gin'y damned? He may be a tormented soul but he has spent eternity in the black pits of Cil'Aujas, which is a big topos. Men who spend a few days go crazy, imagine thousands of years (and then add to that the whole Erratic thing). The mind is a powerful thing and can make a hell of heaven, a heaven of hell.
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 06:17:56 pm »
Maybe Gin'y is Damned, but the sheer amount of suffering that he caused has congealed into something more metaphysically substantial - his Frame. Perhaps big cheese Ciphrang are souls that somehow "own" the suffering they've caused. Maybe that's what the Gods are, souls that have become inextricably linked with certain states of minds/beliefs/actions in the psychological climate of Earwa. Sure, any old murderer is damned, but the first or most prolific murderer is probably something greater.

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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 06:40:28 pm »

I mean, I honestly think Bakker himself could come in here right now under a different name and just lay out the basics of the series, piece by piece, and a lot of people would still take issue with it. Until that shit's in text, in a book, and the series is done, everything's up for grabs. [/i]

I particularly love this quote right here, and fully agree with it. I absolutist believe that Bakker under alias, singing revelation and truth, would be condemned by the community at large. Also, when pressed to defend this or that point, I'm sure more than a few people could poke holes in any theory brought forth. Like you mentioned, until its written in the book, its all ambiguous.

Even when it is written in the book, people scream ambiguity.  After TJE, many were the theory as to what Kelmomas' voice was, most figured Ajokli, very few thought it was Samarmas, as the text strongly implied.  So WLW comes out and the text EXPLICITLY states that the voice is Samarmis, more than once, I think, and people seemed thrilled that the text had confirmed their theory that the voice was Ajokli.

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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 06:44:07 pm »
Maybe Gin'y is Damned, but the sheer amount of suffering that he caused has congealed into something more metaphysically substantial - his Frame. Perhaps big cheese Ciphrang are souls that somehow "own" the suffering they've caused. Maybe that's what the Gods are, souls that have become inextricably linked with certain states of minds/beliefs/actions in the psychological climate of Earwa. Sure, any old murderer is damned, but the first or most prolific murderer is probably something greater.

I thought Gin'yursis was animata, the soul on the seal of the gate at the great medial screw.

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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 11:46:00 pm »

I mean, I honestly think Bakker himself could come in here right now under a different name and just lay out the basics of the series, piece by piece, and a lot of people would still take issue with it. Until that shit's in text, in a book, and the series is done, everything's up for grabs. [/i]

I particularly love this quote right here, and fully agree with it. I absolutist believe that Bakker under alias, singing revelation and truth, would be condemned by the community at large. Also, when pressed to defend this or that point, I'm sure more than a few people could poke holes in any theory brought forth. Like you mentioned, until its written in the book, its all ambiguous.

Even when it is written in the book, people scream ambiguity.  After TJE, many were the theory as to what Kelmomas' voice was, most figured Ajokli, very few thought it was Samarmas, as the text strongly implied.  So WLW comes out and the text EXPLICITLY states that the voice is Samarmis, more than once, I think, and people seemed thrilled that the text had confirmed their theory that the voice was Ajokli.

Kelmomas' voice

I think it's still up for debate. Perhaps, the Voice, lied to Kelmomas.
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2013, 05:21:53 pm »

I mean, I honestly think Bakker himself could come in here right now under a different name and just lay out the basics of the series, piece by piece, and a lot of people would still take issue with it. Until that shit's in text, in a book, and the series is done, everything's up for grabs. [/i]

I particularly love this quote right here, and fully agree with it. I absolutist believe that Bakker under alias, singing revelation and truth, would be condemned by the community at large. Also, when pressed to defend this or that point, I'm sure more than a few people could poke holes in any theory brought forth. Like you mentioned, until its written in the book, its all ambiguous.

Even when it is written in the book, people scream ambiguity.  After TJE, many were the theory as to what Kelmomas' voice was, most figured Ajokli, very few thought it was Samarmas, as the text strongly implied.  So WLW comes out and the text EXPLICITLY states that the voice is Samarmis, more than once, I think, and people seemed thrilled that the text had confirmed their theory that the voice was Ajokli.

Kelmomas' voice

I think it's still up for debate. Perhaps, the Voice, lied to Kelmomas.

This is why Bakker isn't getting any writing done...  He sits back with his "big bag of good weed" and reads this kind of stuff all day.  I know I would if I were him.

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