Julian Jaynes/V.S Ramachandran

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Royce

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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2013, 11:39:18 am »
It is from "The brotherhood of the screaming abyss" by Dennis Mckenna, which I have finally started to read:)

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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2013, 02:26:45 pm »
Damn, I've been wanting to read The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss since it came out. I was thinking the quote didn't read like it was from Bicameral Brain or Ramachandran's text corpus.

Let me try a breakdown for you:

"The hexagram patterns derived from the I Ching in response to a question are meaningful (usually) because they resonate with
something that pre-exists in the mind, below conscious awareness. The I ching clarifies that relationship and triggers an "ah ha"
moment. Or one`s horoscope is meaningful, not because the stars and planets control human destiny, but because the archetypal
processes they symbolically reflect correspond to subjective interpretations of character
. In this respect, the notion of synchronicity
is quite profound, in that it asserts a correspondence between the mind and the external world- the so-called "real" world. The
Hermetic philosophers said it well: As above, so below."

The "ah-ha," or insight, moment is something that hasn't been heavily researched but in the past (decade?) the beginnings of work has been done to discern just what is happening in the brain during these moments. I think I agree with the bold standing alone but then McKenna's following statement makes his overall assertion unclear.

It's actually been a dream of mine to create a Tarot deck based upon modern neuroscientific understanding (because I have very little belief in the supernatural), especially as self-interpretation is key (the cards represent static archetypes that are created by our sociocultural interactions but it is the way they are internalized - applied to one's own life - that gives people insight into their lives)... almost as if by taking a person's questing emotions and all the circumstances involved, sticking 'em in a bag, and pulling them out in a new, random order is what provides a person with insight.

"This mirroring of inner consciousness and the outer world still poses a conundrum for neuroscience and most Western philosophy.
Why, and how, do external events meaningfully relate to inner, psychic events? It is as if consciousness, or mind, forms the primary
ground of being, while the physical world is secondary- a construct created by the mind. Any eastern spiritual tradition or philosophy
will tell you this is the case. Western thought, with its emphasis on materialism, is uncomfortable with that notion. I am not aware of
any finding in current neuroscience that resolves this question, at least not yet; but we do know enough about brain function to say
with fair confidence that , to some extent, the world we call "reality" is a construct of our brains. The brain assembles a coherent story
(more or less) by combining sensory experience with memories, associations, interpretations, and intuitions, then presenting the result
as the movie, or perhaps more accurately the hallucination, we inhabit
. If psychedelics teach us anything, it is how fragile this
constructed reality is, and how profoundly it can be distorted."

Unfortunately, here, while it reads nice, McKenna is essentially saying whatever he wants to. "We don't know, they say Y, we say X, and so Z."

Again, as a stand-alone statement I agree with the bold. We definitely live in a hallucination. Does that support McKenna's overall contentions? Probably not. I mean, there is a far amount of research and imaging that has been done now to visualize what happens in the brain when we ingest mushrooms (and/or other psychedelics). Does that imply that drugs necessarily have something to teach us? Not really. If anything, the argument that follows is that psychedelics (or any drug really) may or may not randomly provide a person with insight. Is it an insight that would have been denied to them had they not taken drugs? Possibly, but probably not - it would simply have a taken a different configuration of circumstances to trigger the aforementioned insight.

I'm really probably the wrong person to talk to if you wanted validation of McKenna's thoughts from a neuroscientific perspective.
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Royce

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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 08:02:40 pm »
Quote
I'm really probably the wrong person to talk to if you wanted validation of McKenna's thoughts from a neuroscientific perspective.

I am not looking for validation at all:) That is boring, and most likely lazy and wrong.

I much appreciate your thoughts on this.

Terence and Dennis are of course biased when they talk about psychoactive plants and such, and that is why I want a different
perspective on the matter involved.

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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2014, 03:20:55 am »
Haha.

Truth. I think there needs to be more research done, Royce.

Though, I truly do appreciate imagining the McKenna Brothers trip from inside their perspective: Mushroom networks are giant, myelinated alien brains, shot through space on meteors, which communicate to humans by our eating their "sexual appendages."

:o...
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« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2014, 07:56:29 am »
lol. It will be interesting to read about their experiments in La Chorrera, where they ate shrooms constantly for about a month or
something:)

Anyway, what fascinates me most about Terence is his imaginative skills.He is truly one of a kind when it comes to just spin around
a topic and just let his mind roll with it. I do not take him that seriously, and I do not think he wanted to be taken seriously either.
He was an entertainer on stage, and he did not like that many of his fans took him literally. They became like a cult, and that was
something he did not want at all. He needed money to eat, so he held talks all over the world, that is it:)

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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2014, 01:41:18 pm »
I believe it was a week or so but that is the exact trip I'm referring to. The Mushroom's there are the one's TM believed were part of an alien entity (whether he meant this allegorically or not, I'm not sure).

By the way, I found a blog yesterday and while I can't support the content entirely, I thought you'd find this post an interesting read (as per the thread): Mr. Jayne's Wild Ride.

Anyway, what fascinates me most about Terence is his imaginative skills.He is truly one of a kind when it comes to just spin around
a topic and just let his mind roll with it. I do not take him that seriously, and I do not think he wanted to be taken seriously either.
He was an entertainer on stage, and he did not like that many of his fans took him literally. They became like a cult, and that was
something he did not want at all. He needed money to eat, so he held talks all over the world, that is it:)

Hm... I actually think he was still brilliant, despite some of his more extravagant beliefs.

I also think it interesting to note that he didn't eat mushrooms anymore for most of the latter part of his life; despite advocating them to pretty much anyone and everyone who would listen.
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2014, 04:12:04 pm »
Oh, don`t get me wrong, he is a personal hero of mine.

Quote
I also think it interesting to note that he didn't eat mushrooms anymore for most of the latter part of his life; despite advocating them to pretty much anyone and everyone who would listen.

Yes, Dennis writes about that in the book(have not read that part yet).

Personally I do not see the point in excessive use of these drugs, but that is just me:).

Do you think his ideas would have found the light without the mushroom? I think he was convinced "the mushroom" spoke to him:)

Will check out that blog when time lets me:)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 04:34:09 pm by Royce »

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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2014, 01:11:31 am »
I feel confident his ideas would have come about regardless of TM specifically being the intermediary, yes.
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2014, 07:42:16 am »
Come on now, it is much more fun if the mushroom was an alien entity which contained secret and sacred information, which could save
humanity from ignorance and show us the right way, so we can evolve together as one race of Nietzschenian supermen!:)

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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2014, 01:04:41 pm »
Lol - mayhaps. Life isn't necessarily fun, all the time :).

There is growth to be had and lessons to learn. I'd rather say that something human (something us, whatever that is) can be responsible for such kinds of wisdom without the need for intercession by Alien or Divine...
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2014, 05:34:38 pm »
Quote
There is growth to be had and lessons to learn. I'd rather say that something human (something us, whatever that is) can be responsible for such kinds of wisdom without the need for intercession by Alien or Divine...

Yes. That is why I do not buy arguments about visiting other dimensions, or encountering alien entities while on a trip. I think you
throw yourself into your own gigantic well of imagination, where anything is possible. Maybe what you see is complicated aspects
of your own character, feelings and memories. It is all human though. Another thing is that I have never heard or read about anyone
describing the same thing, which to me may imply that we all differ in regards to imagination, feelings and memories.

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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 01:55:45 pm »
+1. Though, as I wrote elsewhere, I like possibilities. The bogus stories people make up about those things, don't discount that people might be visiting other dimensions or having alien encounters in ways they cannot even begin to imagine; I just doubt the stories that have these concise self-reports.
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 07:23:59 pm »
Oh yes, the possibilities are endless and boundless:) Anecdotes on this subject means nothing to me. Have the experience and shut the fuck up, you do not understand it, so do not try and explain it to me please:)

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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2014, 01:22:56 pm »
Lol.
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2014, 07:26:02 pm »
Alright. Just read about this experiment Dennis and Terence had at La Chorrera, and that was just crazy:)

They hoped to accomplish nothing less then to trigger an end to history, throw open the gates of a paradise out
of time and invite humanity to walk in ;D (Their words exactly by the way).
Dennis was only 20 at the time(Terence 24) and he ate 19 shrooms in the very beginning of the experiment. That is
an insane amount! I do not know about the size per shroom, but either way that is madness.
Took him a long time to recover from that experiment, and Terence and him kind of went separate ways(intellectually)
after this. Terence got seriously hooked on his timewave theory, and he claimed that modern science has no chance at
all explaining the events that happened during the experiment. Dennis was a little more humble and he pursued a career
as a scientist after this.

You should definitely read this book when you have the time. Very well written and these guys have experienced a lot
you might say:)