TSTSNBN

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Wilshire

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« on: October 03, 2013, 01:13:49 pm »
TSTSNBN

For those of you that don't know, it is an acronym that Bakker uses to describe the series that will come after The Unholy Consult. It stands for "The Series That Shall Not Be Named".

I guess this is a speculative topic about what might it contain, and why even naming it would spoil the books before it.


I had a thought last night after reading Bakker's most recent blog post discussing TUC, probably sparked by his answer to some of the comments. Specifically:
Quote
Thanks, litg. The end of TAE is the end of the tale as I originally conceived it decades ago. All the plot threads from the two trilogies are cinched into a kind of Gordian knot (I fear you’ll have to wait to see what I mean). Fate had forbidden any mention of the two books I have planned after this.
.... so then what would be left for the books afterwards? (btw see wiki about Gordian Knot: It is often used as a metaphor for an intractable problem (disentangling an "impossible" knot) solved easily by cheating or "thinking outside the box" ("cutting the Gordian knot"):"

I thought that maybe the final books could be something like companion novels. Maybe they would follow the same story from a different perspective. Then I though, well who could that possibly be? I could think of the following: Moenghus, Kellhus, the Nonmen, the Inchoroi, the other Consult member(s), or the Gods themselves. Once we find out who/what is the master manipulator, the ultimate conditioner (I don't mean Herbal Essence), which I now thing is likely to happen by the end of TUC, I think that we will get a book with a master POV. Someone or something that has been pulling the strings for decades, centuries, or millennium.

That of course assumes that TUC does come to some kind of conclusion, though given the statement that sparked these thoughts I would not consider that a given.
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Madness

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 01:45:03 pm »
I'll say the same thing I said on Westeros.

I think it's a complete tale as I know exactly how concerned Bakker is about endings.

Firstly, the evidence.  Bakker had the 'seed idea' for TSA as a teenager some 25ish years ago. TSA was conceived as a trilogy at some point when the conception of actually writing it occured and then it became the behemoth masterwork it is becoming as it was written. TDTCB is published a decade ago next year, leaving almost two decades in the interim between 'seed idea' and publication of TDTCB, which had that point was decided to begin a trilogy of it's own.

My guess is that the story grew beyond the 'seed idea' in the interim years.

TUC is where all our disparate ambiguity is bound by the Gordian Knot. It's also ironic that the Gordian Knot is a metaphor including Alexander as its master, which would seem to signify Kellhus. TUC ties all our ragged speculations, our blind analogies, together into the Knot... TSTSNBN will cut it.

Also, I asked Bakker whether he thought that the spoiler title wouldn't ruin it for newcomers to the series later. Though, we most certainly get the best ride.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 02:39:21 pm »
Though, we most certainly get the best ride.

Yeah, I mean we had to wait in the interminably long line to sit in the front car of this roller coaster, but I submit that it will be well worth it.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 03:13:26 pm »
Though, we most certainly get the best ride.

Yeah, I mean we had to wait in the interminably long line to sit in the front car of this roller coaster, but I submit that it will be well worth it.

Agreed.  I want it now, but I will wait for it (however tooth-grindingly frustrating that may be) because it's the only series I actually relish.  Nothing else I've read has ever inspired or challenged me to the same degree.  Bakker has pretty much ruined me on other authors, the bastard.

As to the point of your post, I'm not qualified in disentangling the literary/philosophical depths of the story, but speculating is my forte.   :)  So, what about the title of the third series is so spoilerific that we can't know what it is?  Following on from the current naming conventions (The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect-Emperor), one has to assume it is titled after Kellhus' next incarnation, whatever that may be.  I'm sure when we finally learn what it is, it'll be a forehead slapping moment of 'It was so obvious! Why didn't I see that?', but then again may be not.  That being said, I have a couple of guesses for the record:

1) The Absolute
2) The God-Sorcerer (which I might be leaning toward)
3) The Dancer-in-the-Dark (wherein Kellhus is revealed to be Onkhis, who comes before everyone; I know that Onkhis is supposed to be female-aspected, but I'm going with it anyway)

I hope this post isn't outside of your intent.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 03:43:28 pm »
I guess this is a speculative topic about what might it contain, and why even naming it would spoil the books before it.

So you're good.

I never thought the titles that way. Already at forehead slap moment.
I could see this potentially going either way: Another step up the ladder of power, or falling off completely.

It could be something regarding Kellhus dominating over the outside, since we whet from king of nothing, to king of all humanity, then to king of everything... or whatever remained. That would make the title something like The Ruler of Darkness, signifying that he now comes before everything. Or maybe if there is some kind of successful sealing of the outside, he could simply become the only god within the borders of Earwa

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 07:45:54 pm »
How about The God of Darkness?  It would go along with Bakker's systematic destruction of tropes in that you would inherently believe that a god of darkness would be evil, but taken within the context of the story, it just means that he is the one who comes before everything else.  This is all assuming Kel, in fact, becomes a god, and that he isn't inherently evil.  He might not, and he may be.  Thematically, I like that since Kel metaphorically came from darkness, then would end up the ultimate darkness, preceding everything.

I kinda go on little trips in my head with assumptions.  Sometimes they're interstellar.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 08:00:28 pm »
Kellhus went from Prince to Emperor... is there another step up from there that would fit into the title somewhere? Though if you consider something like the Divine Right of Kings, then really God is the logical next step.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 09:16:38 pm »
Assuming the duology is indeed a direct extension of the last two trilogies, then I feel pretty confident it will be named after whatever god-like form Kellhus takes, with the knee-jerk reaction (for me anyway) being the No-God. Though I'm not particularly enamoured with this idea, it does fit. Obviously it would be a twist, but there would also be some poetic symmetry with the Prince of Nothing becoming, essentially, the God of Nothing (I'm personally of the mind that, absurd as it might seem, the No-God is at least partially intended to be an "anthropomorphization of nothingness", as others have speculated).

That being said, The Awoken God or The World Soul, or some similar riff on those ideas, seem like a distinct possibility as well.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 09:19:47 pm by Francis Buck »

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 10:32:15 pm »
My largest issue with that whole idea is that... well... it makes sense. It is too faintly hidden. People have said that kellhus is the no-god since the very beginning, or at least have claimed too. It would be almost an anti-climax if this is how it turned out. Maybe "anti-climax" is too strong, but I would be marginally disappointed.


I now believe that the final series will indeed be named after whatever happens to Kellhus, this seems logical. It does fill the criteria of spoiler.
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Borque

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 11:23:39 am »
My theory is that it's going to be named "The Glory of the Victorious Consult", which is kind of a spoiler.

Scott is going to shift genres a bit on us, and give us 1,000+ pages of highly detailed rape alien erotica. Quite possibly there isn't going to be any plot at all to distract the reader, since TUC is going to tie everything up so nicely.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 12:32:47 pm »
Its possible, but since he did use Gordian Knot to describe how he's going to finish things up, I imagine that everything won't be as clear as you'd think. But hey if he really wants to break genres, there arn't a ton of SFF-erotica novels out there, or at least not ones that are 1000+ pages. Maybe that will be his big break?
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Madness

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 01:20:16 pm »
Lol, Borque.

We'll see what TUC brings. I actually think my head may explode while I read this book.

But if I'm to survive and speculate, the only contention I have now is that I don't think we'll see the aftermath of the Ordeal losing.

/Nerdanel

Kellhus, and possibly others, will go and have another plot-crushing conversation in Golgotterath while the Ordeal and the Consult minions do battle.

Kellhus decides whether or not to help resurrect the No-God, either before or after looking at the Inverse Fire - and my guess is that his ambiguity will be pushed to monumental heights because we'll have a piece of his perspective again but only the decision and none of the underlying rationale.

No-God walks. Weapon Races are of One Will. Cut-scene.

TSTSNBN will start with Achamian having fought in the wars of the Second Apocalypse for whatever number of years (Ancient North and Kyraneas hold out much longer than Three-Seas can after their Great Ordeal - Zuem X-Factor, obviously - so I can't see that being longer than a decade or so).

Kellhus is presumed dead after Dagliash. Kayutas, Zsoronga, and Sorweel fight the Consult in the North, roaming with the Zombie Great Ordeal.

Esmenet sits on the throne as Empress, having defeated Fanayal and sued for peace with Zuem before all sense the No-God's dread presence across the horizon.

/End Nerdanel
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locke

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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 07:05:48 am »
nah, Esme will pour poison in Kellhus ear after Kelmomas convinces her that Kellhus only ever loved Serwe.  the poison will not quite kill him and he'll be delivered to the Consult.  But Esme will die at the end of TUC, as well as Achamian, neither will survive to the final duology becuase their story will be finished.

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 05:06:22 pm »
Nerdanel, I know, but if she survives Kelmomas, Esmenet is never going to love again - unless Bakker can sell us on "true love" with Achamian and Esmenet. But I somehow really can't see them doing the slow-motion running reunion.

Obviously, she is still making very poor, love-motivated decisions regarding Kelmomas.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 12:57:45 am »
Saying Kellhus is the no-god is like saying the butler did it, without reading the book on why or how he did it, or even if he did it.

Scott refers to it as a cosmological who dunnit? Do you just skip to the last page of a whodunnit?