Nonmen Society

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 04:33:56 pm »
More groundless speculation.

Since Quya are hereditary sorcerers, it seems likely to me that Quyan Families would organize around each other. I get a vary mafia-like feeling from this speculation.

As noted in human society, rogue sorcerers are a threat to status-quo. You can't have that accounted for power, running around as an x-factor. In human society, the Schools arose due to the condemnation of sorcery by the Tusk (which seems to throw a wrench into the Siqu founding the Schools or the Schools reflecting the particularities of Patron Siqu?). Chorae became a check and balance against the Schools, lest cities and states become a reflection of High Ainon.

In Nonmen Society, Chorae didn't exist to occupy the same social niche. For a functional society, the same rule of power applies; you can't just have rogue sorcerers doing what they want with society due to their individual power.

Now we don't know how the Nonmen Kings became Kings (and Curethan offered a pretty tight dissociation that either Nin'janjin or Cu'jara Cinmoi wasn't Quya, therefore negating sorcery as a prerequisite for rule). However, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Su'juroit became the Witch-King strictly due to his sorcerous ability (and/or possible demonic possession by an agency ;)).

Overall, it seems to make sense to me that Quya being hereditary sorcerers would put 'the family' first as it were, which would make them one pillar of social structure - it certainly seems to make them a greater fulcrum than simply being a 'noble family,' if your whole family is sorcerous.

Food for thought.
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locke

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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 10:16:52 pm »
Also, with schoolmen not marrying nor forming families, they're more or less pulled out of the gene pool, which starves and weakens the schools over the millenia.  Sure there are some bastards around, but that's pretty significantly different from the presumably greater numbers of children born in legitimate fashion.

That also raises the question that the curse of the Nroni fisherman "to never know if your children are your own" meaning that the Mandate probably use the cants of compulsion to fuck women and then cull the magical kids. 

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 11:31:56 pm »
Ha! Sounds suitably Bakkerian Locke, but depends on whether the Mandate understood the principles of eugenics in the same way we do ;)
 
Expanding on my thoughts that the Ishroi caste were like the Spartiate rather than Plato's Republic, here is a wiki reference that neatly covers my reasoning on the 'curse of the Ishro'i.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate 

Given that the nonmen were kind of like the Greek gods in their form and passions, I think we can see why their wives would be inclined to play around behind their backs.  We even have the example of Cimoira where a high ranked Ishroi's wife got jiggy with Sirwatta, a human slave.

That same instance mentions the Judges of the Ishroi, which sounds like another sub-category within nonman society. 

Certainly, we can reason from examples that Quya served in military, administrative, religious, crafting and philosophical/'scientific' roles.  It's possible, given the long lifespan of Cunoroi that they might function in these roles at different points in their lives.

Also interesting is the effect of hereditary sorcery.  Does this mean that Quya were also comprised of females prior to the womb plague?  Did this require both parents be Quya?  What was the incidence of the Few amongst nonmen? It certainly seems like they were more common than amongst men.  Perhaps 1/2000 rather than 1/200,000 (my rough estimation).

Su'juriot possibly adds more fuel to my theory that being Quya is incidental to the qualities required for rule.  Why else the special designation as 'Witch-king'.  Surely this serves to differentiate him from a standard king. ;)
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2013, 01:43:00 pm »
That also raises the question that the curse of the Nroni fisherman "to never know if your children are your own" meaning that the Mandate probably use the cants of compulsion to fuck women and then cull the magical kids. 

Is this a misnomer? Is that line really used to describe the Nroni and the Ishroi?

Expanding on my thoughts that the Ishroi caste were like the Spartiate rather than Plato's Republic, here is a wiki reference that neatly covers my reasoning on the 'curse of the Ishro'i.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartiate

Sorry, Curethan, I've read that twice now - I can't seem to find where it says anything about they relationships except that because they marry late, birthrates are low (which is sourceless anyhow)?

Given that the nonmen were kind of like the Greek gods in their form and passions, I think we can see why their wives would be inclined to play around behind their backs.  We even have the example of Cimoira where a high ranked Ishroi's wife got jiggy with Sirwatta, a human slave.

That same instance mentions the Judges of the Ishroi, which sounds like another sub-category within nonman society.

"The Judges of the Ishroi were perplexed: such a thing had never happened before" (TTT Glossary, p543). It's not enough data? But the Judges line does suggest some internal oversight.

Also interesting is the effect of hereditary sorcery.  [1]Does this mean that Quya were also comprised of females prior to the womb plague?  [2]Did this require both parents be Quya?  [3]What was the incidence of the Few amongst nonmen? It certainly seems like they were more common than amongst men.  Perhaps 1/2000 rather than 1/200,000 (my rough estimation).

1. At this point, we could hazard either way about the gender rules. I'm going to guess that females were for now.

2. Quya borne definitely would have had two Quyan parents - it'd be like 'noble bloodline' except that the purity of your bloodline determines sorcerous ability. I'm sure the hereditary Quya took relations very seriously (I'm thinking like sorcerous Bene Gesserit).

3. I'm not sure about your ratios (they could be accurate?) but in lieu of possible answer [2], I'm thinking that the Nonmen would have tried to avoid the results of inbreeding but if requiring both Quyan parents, there is certainly going to be a higher population than occurring randomly in human population especially depending how many initial separate lineages there were.

Su'juriot possibly adds more fuel to my theory that being Quya is incidental to the qualities required for rule.  Why else the special designation as 'Witch-king'.  Surely this serves to differentiate him from a standard king. ;)

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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 01:54:03 pm »
Sorry, Curethan, I've read that twice now - I can't seem to find where it says anything about they relationships except that because they marry late, birthrates are low (which is sourceless anyhow)?

This part:
"Spartiate youths enrolled in military training (agoge) from the age of seven onwards to thirty (the age of full citizenship).  From that age until they became too old to fight, they would live in their barracks, visiting their families (and later, their wives) only when they could sneak out."

Iirc, according to Xenophon they were also encouraged to develop 'close relations' with their fellows so that they would fight harder for each other, but that is incidental.

Now add to that sort of scenario the fact that the Cunoroi Mansions seemed to spend a large amount of time warring amongst themselves (see the constant interruptions in the Cuno-Inchoroi wars before the womb-plague) and I feel like they would also spend a lot of time on campaign besieging their foes and/or garrisoning their conquests.
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2013, 03:24:09 pm »
I see a little clearer now.

We seem to have settled on assumptions of gender in our assertions.

The question then becomes one of whether the Nonman females were Ishroi (or Quya, Siqu, Judge) or if they were somehow or another barred or constrained from equal positions in Nonman Society?

Women aren't Ishroi (Sparta) or Women are Ishroi (Plato's Guardians).
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twooars

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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 06:59:49 am »

More interesting stuff, Gilcunya is described as the holy tongue of the nonmen quya and is a debased version of Auja-Gilcunni, the base language of Cunuroi - seperate again from Ihrimsu, which the nonmen of Ishterebinth speak. 

Culturally, this suggests different languages between mansions.

Apologies if this has been brought up earlier (and for taking the discussion back to much earlier in the thread!), but I thought this made sense, the Quya using a different language for their sorcery (which I presume is what 'holy' implies?), and not Ihrimsu which a common tongue...

Quote
“Vulgar languages, especially when native, stand too close to the press of life. Their meanings are too easily warped by our insights and experiences. The sheer other-ness of Gilcûnya serves to insulate the semantics of sorcery from the inconstancies of our lives.

Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 3415-3417). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
and
Quote
Gilcûnya—The tongue of the Nonmen Quya and the Gnostic Schools, thought to be a debased version of Auja-Gilcûnni, the so-called “ground” (or first) tongue of the Cûnuroi.

Bakker, R. Scott (2010-05-06). The Thousandfold Thought (Prince of Nothing) (Kindle Locations 9844-9845). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
Which may mean that the Quya use Gilcunya to preserve the meaning of their sorcery, just like the Mandate, but doesn't mean much to Nonman society in general because it is a derivative of an already ancient and not commonly used tongue, Auja-Gilcûnni?

Ihrimsu, the glossary says, is the tongue of Injor-Niyas (=Ishterebinth?), the last Nonmen nation - which, as Curethan says, might suggest different languages in different mansions.

Madness

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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 12:20:24 pm »
Rather than do schoolwork, I've been rereading TJE and a small point of corroboration, Curethan, twooars (Mansions are individually whole cultures, changing names, etc):

Quote from: TJE, p216
The hood bowed to the tabletop. "I can no longer remember, I have known Ishterebinth, I think ... But it was not called such then."

And the one I wanted to drop off for thoughts, a couple lines later:

Quote from: p216
"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"

My bolding, capitalization by the text.
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Meyna

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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 12:36:30 pm »
Quote from: p216
"Who was your Quya Master? From which Line do you hail?"

My bolding, capitalization by the text.

The second question could be a follow-up to the first (perhaps magic split into different subdisciplines, much like martial arts of our world), or it could be a separate, unrelated question pertaining to genealogy or Mansion/culture.
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 12:41:06 pm »
They were too unconnected thoughts, for sure.

Rather I'm hoping that 'Line' specifically can argue my 'Quya Families' organization (thus, domination) of Nonmen Society.

Though we've also got the 'Mansions are Cultures' and 'Gender-Class Inclusion' going; do Mansion represent City-States, culturally sufficient themselves and are Nonmen females Quya/Ishroi/Siqu/Judge/Etc on par with Nonmen males - probably a number of other interesting threads we haven't yet deciphered.
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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 03:34:28 pm »
Holy language is important in the context of the question as to whether Quya were considered accursed pre-Fall.  Again, that tangent belongs in other threads though.

Interesting because it also suggests that Cunoroi culture was not static, a dead holy language, like Latin, might signify a dark age where knowledge was hoarded by the priest class; in this case the Quya priests/Judges.

Lack of significant female Ishroi heroes or rulers pre-womb plague suggests generic gender roles I'm afraid, at least in the warrior class.  ...I wonder if non-women were baldies too?
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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 04:05:10 pm »
Lack of significant female Ishroi heroes or rulers pre-womb plague suggests generic gender roles I'm afraid, at least in the warrior class.  ...I wonder if non-women were baldies too?

I don't support this thought. Cu'jara Cinmoi, Nin'janjin, and Sin'niroiha seem to be the only remaining Nonmen Kings at the time of the Fall - from ZTS we know that Nonmen Civilization is already in decline for some reason, neh?

But to say that there are no Nonmen females mentioned, therefore they do not exist, doesn't seem right either.

Aside, I figure Nonmen females were hairless as well - it's only after Mimara shaves her head that Cleric starts to talk to her about her reminding him.
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2013, 08:27:23 pm »
There are more references to Ishroi than Quya in general when we read through the Cuno-Inchoroi wars Neither CC or NJ show any indication of being more than Ishroi.  NJ cuts off CC's head in their final encounter, in4Revelations we see CC struck down by a nimil spear.  This suggests physical combat rather than sorcerous.  So if CC was Quya, then NJ must've held a chorae, in which case NJ could not be Quya.  Logically, it appears at least one nonman king was not Quya.

That's a pretty damn good catch. Hopefully it turns out legit and isn't just an authorial slip-up, though I'd wonder how any non-sorcerors could maintain their power if chorae were outlawed (I guess just chalk it up to Nonman honor)?

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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2013, 10:00:23 pm »
That was has been my argument, FB.

Quya seemed pretty likely to dominate Nonman society... We're missing pieces.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2013, 12:47:41 am »
Well remember that Cleric was pretty badass even without his songs. The Quya are not like our overweight wizard.

Could have been a point of pride to brake a dragon without the words?
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