Nonmen Society

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Ciogli

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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2013, 11:00:01 pm »
I think the Nonmen are the most fascinating part of Earwa, their history should be a major plot point of the TUC. T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time. With Cujara Cinmoi and Siol being the single strongest polity. But the Nonmen kingdoms seem to be much bigger than their human descendants, with nine mansions controlling the whole of Earwa. Siol seems to have been in the same area as Kuniuri, because Viri wich was just norh in Agongorea and Cil-Aujus in the three seas just south. If they only build their cities in mountains that would put Siol in the Demua mountains, maybe the Nonmen ruins Kellhuss fights Cet'Ingira could be the entrance. But more likely is that Siol is like Doriath in that the capital city is centrally located near a great river, putting Siol along the Anduin. probably near Sauglish or the other great cities of the Kuniuri. They may have built their first cities near the ruins of Siol.  Though the high mansion controls the whole territory and gives it name to the kingdom, but there must be smaller mansions throughout the territory like the one in which Moenghus built his abode. I really hope Bakker does a Silmarillion type series for the Cuno-Inchie wars after the second apoc is completed. On the Ishroi or Quya point, I think these two classes maybe somewhat interchangeable, with Cleric and Cet' Ingira being both, I think a good bet is that all the royal lines had a mixture of both with the rulers being both. The line by Cleric where he says to the CC statue that his voice has cracked mountains implied to me that he was a sorcerer. Maybe kings choose to fight each other in single armed combat, or the in the heat of the moment Nin' Janjin surprised Cujara Cinmoi before he could react. I fervently hope that Nin is still alive somewhere in Golgotterath, such a character needs to make an appearance in TUC and have his story told, the first Nonman traitor who helped doom his own people for vengeance, but his lack of mention since the Cuno-Inchoroi wars is making me doubtful of his fate.

Madness

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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2013, 01:21:57 am »
Sorry for the piecemeal response.

I think the Nonmen are the most fascinating part of Earwa, their history should be a major plot point of the TUC.

I'm sure it will be.

T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.

I'll have to find the quote but Bakker's written that Nonman Civilization was declined far past their peak by the time of the Fall.

Though the high mansion controls the whole territory and gives it name to the kingdom, but there must be smaller mansions throughout the territory like the one in which Moenghus built his abode.

Another Bakker quote has it that the Southern Mansions may have been ruined before the Breaking of the Gates. No indications as to whether the difference in size was significant. We also know from Moenghus (so speculation) that the Nonpeople pilgrimaged to the Kyudean Mansion from all across Earwa to bathe because bathing was holy to them. Also, Inri Sejenus allegedly ascended at Kyudea, not Shimeh.

There seems to be something specifically important about it.

I really hope Bakker does a Silmarillion type series for the Cuno-Inchie wars after the second apoc is completed.

Over the years, Bakker has mentioned wanting to do stand-alones of the First Apocalypse and one centered around Cu'jara Cinmoi (likely, the Cuno-Inchoroi wars).

On the Ishroi or Quya point, I think these two classes maybe somewhat interchangeable, with Cleric and Cet' Ingira being both, I think a good bet is that all the royal lines had a mixture of both with the rulers being both.

In TAE, Mimara and Achamian both refer to Cleric being both Quya and Ishroi - Achamian in particular notes that Nil'giccas being Ishroi makes him more of a minority than Quya at this point in their degraded history.
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2013, 04:43:10 pm »
Sorry for the piecemeal response.


T don't think their civilization was in decline at the time of the Fall, their were nine high mansions at that time.

I'll have to find the quote but Bakker's written that Nonman Civilization was declined far past their peak by the time of the Fall.

Please do.  If they were in considerable decline by then it would imply inter alia that the Inchroi would not have been as much of a difficulty for them had Nonmen strength been at it's peak during the Fall.

How long did the Inchoroi wait in orbit? And why didn't they just land? What damaged the Ark to badly that it could not fly any more? Crackpot:
(click to show/hide)
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2013, 05:11:51 pm »
The reason the Inchoroi crash landed is because they had lost the means to repair their own ship. Either through war or some other kind of attrition their scientists and engineers (those with the knowledge to run the ship) where mostly all dead. They where the moribund survivors of some terrible war.
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Madness

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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2013, 06:08:15 pm »
I very much like the idea of the Inchoroi fleeing from something worse.

And EkyannusIII, you don't have to spoiler in this subforum until TUC comes out.
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Triskele

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« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2013, 10:04:49 pm »
There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics. 

Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet?  Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?

I am certainly quite excited to see Ishterebinth in the next book.  The Nonmen, like the Consult, have been a fascinating but mostly off-camera element in the series thus for.

But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries):  Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted?  He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas.  Do we take this literally?  Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.

We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.

So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:

-Cleric's line shouldn't be taken as scripture...maybe he just meant that a lot of Nonmen had gone over but not everyone.  Or perhaps Cleric has been gone far too long to have anything reliable to say

-Cleric's line should be taken literally...all the Nonmen are trending towards Erratic and have gone over.  Kellhus has sent Moe, Serwa, and Sorweel to Consult agents

-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things

The part I'm caught up on is that it's hard not to take Cleric's line seriously, but it's hard to imagine Kellhus not knowing that Ishterebinth was lost to the Consult.

Thoughts?

locke

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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2013, 08:50:33 am »

Thoughts?
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?


Madness

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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2013, 12:49:02 pm »
There's something that still isn't entirely clear to me about Erratics. 

Is going "Wayward" something that is inevitable for all Nonmen but just hasn't happened to the "Intact" yet?  Or is it something that they are susceptible to as a species but only some fall victim to?

The Wayward seem to emulate (or are emulated by) Cleric's attitude that his only penance can be fighting against the Weapon-Races of the Consult. To me. Intact are functional, Erratic specifically need to cause trauma, and Wayward scourge the Weapon-Races in embracing their Erraticism (Achamian thinks that Cleric must be coming to love the Scalpers that the Skin Eaters lose and gain throughout the ebbs and flow of their craft but then it's about Mimara's resemblance to Nil'giccas's wife and Achamian being Seswatha - all of which makes me think that the events of the WLW were the first time Cleric fell into the Erractic loop).

But a question there (man, WLW opened up so many mysteries):  Can Cleric's account of Ishterebinth be trusted?  He tells Achamian that Ishterebinth has turned to Min-Uroikas.  Do we take this literally?  Because he says it pretty clearly and suggests that only pride prevented him from doing it too.

Maybe. Maybe not.


Thoughts?
maybe his sense of his place in time at the moment he was talking to akka was... erratic?

Maybe this - where Nil'giccas is remembering a long-ago conversion instead of contemporary events.

We already knew that some number of Nonmen had gone over to the Consult some time ago, but before this line from Cleric, it seemed to me that we had every reason to believe that there was one still-functioning Nonman society that had not turned to the Consult.

Truth. We were so led to believe.

So here are some possibilities, it seems to me:

-Ishterebinth has been in some kind of uneasy alliance or truce w/ the Consult...their society persists, but they're not warring to destroy the Ark anymore, and now they're genuinely interested in the possibility of the Aspect-Emperor who has accomplished such amazing things

This, I feel like it's an issue of complicit authority. The leaders of this society have so "turned" and, in doing so, have oriented their society accordingly, whether the society at large got to make that conscious decision is another story.

Plus - we do have to consider the possibility that the Nonmen, as a whole, found out about Nil'giccas' lie, concerning the "truth" of the Inverse Fire. Perhaps that is why Mekeritrig was in Sobel because he was on his way to break the milennial old-news that their ancient Foe was right? Therefore, pride turned Nil'giccas from them.

It's a Mansion. I figure there's a civil war going on (or Achamian bringing news of a Dead Nil'giccas and wearing his armor as proof is going to spark one. Or Serwa and Mimara will spark one)... etc, etc.
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Crtha

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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2013, 01:06:41 pm »
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

I always felt that the Mansions were akin to bronze age city states rather than dominions of specific areas like traditional fantasy kingdoms, and that the sparseness of their population was due to their low birthrate and long lifespans.

To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2013, 01:42:53 pm »
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

I always felt that the Mansions were akin to bronze age city states rather than dominions of specific areas like traditional fantasy kingdoms, and that the sparseness of their population was due to their low birthrate and long lifespans.

Who is to say what the context of Aurang's statements are... or how much of truth he shares with a soulless tool?

To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.

I tried looking again today and all I found was the quote below but the context doesn't imply whether or not it's the "last Age" because of the Fall or cultural/societal deterioration. But no, I wasn't thinking of the Inchoroi/Moribund quote :-\.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2005
So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2013, 05:57:29 pm »
To my faulty memory, it seems that the Bakker quote Madness might be thinking of actually refers to the Inchies - that they were moribund and had lost proper knowledge of their technology by the time they came to Earwa.  I don't recall any reference to where the Cunoroi were on their cultural or racial lifespan before the fall.
I believe this is correct. After all, why would the Inchoroi fall from the sky and crash land if they knew how to properly fly their own ship? Its not like they got to the promised land and decided that they needed to kill 99% of their population as they landed.
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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2013, 02:53:37 pm »
Oh, Curethan's right about that quote - it's relatively easy to find.

For some reason, ZTS only allows me to search and then read the first page of results (if I click page 2, 3, 4, 5, it just loads up the first page again).

But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2013, 07:33:18 pm »
But I'm fairly sure about this other one. I will find the right combination of words or strategy (searching obsessively) to prove I'm right or crazy ;).
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Triskele

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« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2013, 11:43:29 pm »
Aurang's reference to Ishteribinth implies they are heavily compromised, but it doesn't seem like the thing one would say of allies?
Paraphrasing: "there is little that occurs in Ishteribinth that we are not aware of..."
Iirc that is in response to speculation that the dunyain are a product of the non-men.

D'oh, can't believe I forgot to include that.  I'd agree that it doesn't sound like something you'd say about your allies.  Sounds like something you'd say about a place where you have spies or some ability to infiltrate.  And this was from the first series.  He references Nin-Ciljiras (sp) as if he's now the de-facto ruler of Ishterebinth.  So we can assume from that that Cleric is gone by this point. 

Kind of funny though...why does the Ordeal think that Nil'giccas is no longer king in Ishterebinth?  On their own, I get how men would have no real inkling of who rules in Ishterebinth.  But Kellhus almost certainly knows.  What motive could he have for maintaining the idea that Nil'giccas is still king there?  Anyone pondered that?

Crtha

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« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2013, 12:59:41 am »
@ Triskele.

Cleric's monologing in TJE suggests he hasn't been in Ishterebinth for a loooong time.
He likely spent a lot of time hanging around in Cil Aujis before joining the skin eaters.

I think he's playing along with the Emisarry's lies.
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