Khellus and the Emissary.

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Crtha

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« on: October 27, 2013, 10:35:38 pm »
This scene seems like 100% lies.
Why is Proyas there?  Seems like the whole show is for his benefit.  Perhaps K doesn't plan on being with the Ordeal when they get to Dagliash.

Why the heck didn't Sorweel and co go back with the Emissary?  Maybe they weren't even really from Ishterberinth. 
But I don't think the nonmen would be counting on their hostages being able to teleport there with the metagnosis.  It doesn't really make them good hostages either if they can just teleport away :p

The Emissary agrees to ally on the basis of the Niom and Daglaish at the outset, then again at the end of the conversation.  What is the point of the shit in between?

He asks K about the outside and they briefly discuss damnation.
Specifically the line from the Tusk that we know was added by the Inchies.  Presumably both K and the Emisarry KNOW this is a lie.

There are other two nonmen, but they do nothing... Um... 

Touching K; perhaps the Emissary slipped him a love letter?  Or a map?  Or some Tekne 'bug'?

Proyas thinks about the overtures that K made, all the people he sent to Ishterberinth.  I call BS.  If K can spend two days teleporting halfway across the continent just to help calm down the cults when he knows the new empire will fall anyway, I'm sure he could spend a week checking out Ishterberinth (and doing some diplomacy if possible) before the ordeal even set out.

Anyway, just wanted to start you all thinking.  I've read that scene a few times now, and it makes less sense every time.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 11:42:08 pm »
So. Many. Variables (the teleportation simply increased the various variables geometrically)

So few restrictions on actions present to determine intent by.

Crtha

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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 03:05:51 am »
Guess we'll find out when the Ordeal reaches Dagliash.
Still, the fact that Proyas is the only attendee seems important.
I understand that his PoV is the only way into an important plot event, but not even Kayutus is there.
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locke

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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 08:01:00 am »
Does Kellhus know how to read a cunoroi face?

because he learns a ton on how to read their faces when he catches them in a straight lie.  That's the Nil Giccas bit, Kellhus knows he's not there and then they lie to him. 

so that tells me the whole meeting is advantage Kellhus, because he established a baseline, 'lie' cunoroi face and extrapolated from there.

Crtha

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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 10:00:00 am »
Yeh, something I wondered about too, Locke.  I think K would definitely know all it is possible to know about the nonmen.  His warning to Proyas suggests he is quite familiar with them already, inasmuch as we can trust that.

Another thing, are the Cunoroi are even important to the Ordeal?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 07:36:56 pm »
Yeh, something I wondered about too, Locke.  I think K would definitely know all it is possible to know about the nonmen.  His warning to Proyas suggests he is quite familiar with them already, inasmuch as we can trust that.

Another thing, are the Cunoroi are even important to the Ordeal?

I'd say that the Quya are a major factor. I'd guess they could give Kellhus and his meta-gnosis a good battle. A chorus of Quya would be terrifying and could probably decimate an entire gnostic school. Meaning so pure...

As for the rest... Well, we saw what a few bashrag did. The Ordeal can kill an infinite number of sranc, buy anything else seems to tip the favor away from them. A small platoon of Ishroi could open up a hole in the Ordeal's defenses, which could have devastating affects.

So I would think that, while they may be small in number, the Cunoroi could play a vital role in the success of failure of the Great Ordeal.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Borric

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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 07:58:22 pm »
I would guess they will be the main opposition, along with Wracu.
Who else can the Consult field?  (Able to go head to head with the schools)
The Mangaecca are now a bunch of bobbing heads?
The Inchroi consist of two beings.
Id venture that the Quya who sided with the Consult will be formidable indeed.

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 08:08:15 pm »
They may also be the largest unknown quantity in Kellhus' equations, which is significant.
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Madness

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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 09:21:40 pm »
I appreciate the dissection of this scene but a number of contentions. Antagonistic, insofar as I can also foster discussion.

This scene seems like 100% lies.
Why is Proyas there?  Seems like the whole show is for his benefit.  Perhaps K doesn't plan on being with the Ordeal when they get to Dagliash.

Proyas isn't the only person there. There are a number of the Pillarian Guard there as well.

The Emissary agrees to ally on the basis of the Niom and Daglaish at the outset, then again at the end of the conversation.  What is the point of the shit in between?

This is the first notable interaction between the Powers-That-Be in millenia. Why shouldn't they shoot the shit? Kellhus is one of the few entities in Earwa that can offer the Nonmen something new to talk about. He's not simply a poor repetition of all the humans that have come before.

Also, considering carefully the Niom, Proyas thinks on never having heard of it. Kellhus, however, knows exactly what it is.

Presumably, if the Nonmen are treating in good faith, then they think that if the Ordeal prevails at Dagliash, then it may have victory at Golgotterath. I took it to mean, essentially, that the Nonmen will do nothing until Kellhus takes Dagliash.

He asks K about the outside and they briefly discuss damnation.
Specifically the line from the Tusk that we know was added by the Inchies.  Presumably both K and the Emisarry KNOW this is a lie.

I wondered about this, as well. It makes me think that Kellhus actually doesn't care how the Nonmen respond at this point. As I think you yourself pointed out, Nonmen are False is not the same as are Damned. Both Kellhus and Nin'sarricas corroborate that that's why they are Damned but, obviously, we don't know what the actual case is...

Also, Bakker primed us purposely for some reason with that interview before WLW - we wouldn't have known unequivocally otherwise that the Inchoroi added that and it would have alleviated us of a layer of ambiguity here.

I would actually assume that neither Kellhus or Nin'sarricas know that the 'are False' is itself a faked addition to the Tusk, though both might suspect.

Touching K; perhaps the Emissary slipped him a love letter?  Or a map?  Or some Tekne 'bug'?

I read this as the Nonman having some kind of ability to sense the soul based on the context of the conversation. It has been theorized that the Nonmen had a real issue with Ciphrangic possessions causing social upheaval and Malowebi too references it as historically precedent.

Proyas thinks about the overtures that K made, all the people he sent to Ishterberinth.  I call BS.  If K can spend two days teleporting halfway across the continent just to help calm down the cults when he knows the new empire will fall anyway, I'm sure he could spend a week checking out Ishterberinth (and doing some diplomacy if possible) before the ordeal even set out.

Anyway, just wanted to start you all thinking.  I've read that scene a few times now, and it makes less sense every time.

The exercise of sorcery seems to offend/frighten the Nonmen? Kellhus probably knows he couldn't defeat a motivated corp of Quya on his own?

Guess we'll find out when the Ordeal reaches Dagliash.
Still, the fact that Proyas is the only attendee seems important.
I understand that his PoV is the only way into an important plot event, but not even Kayutus is there.

Saubon not being there would seem more important. Kellhus doesn't need anyone there really. Proyas is Exalt-General and he's with the same Army. I mean, I understand reading into it for sake of it - but I'm not sure how seriously to implicate consequences?

Does Kellhus know how to read a cunoroi face?

because he learns a ton on how to read their faces when he catches them in a straight lie.  That's the Nil Giccas bit, Kellhus knows he's not there and then they lie to him.

He learned to read the skin-spies fairly reliably, neh? I'm sure he'd have no issues with the Nonmen.

so that tells me the whole meeting is advantage Kellhus, because he established a baseline, 'lie' cunoroi face and extrapolated from there.

I'm not sure Kellhus could gain anything at this point in dealing with the Nonmen. His most obvious play, for whatever advantage, to me, is entirely in sending Serwa. Then he'll leverage what he wants from them.

Yeh, something I wondered about too, Locke.  I think K would definitely know all it is possible to know about the nonmen.  His warning to Proyas suggests he is quite familiar with them already, inasmuch as we can trust that.

Another thing, are the Cunoroi are even important to the Ordeal?

I'd say that the Quya are a major factor. I'd guess they could give Kellhus and his meta-gnosis a good battle. A chorus of Quya would be terrifying and could probably decimate an entire gnostic school. Meaning so pure...

I realize Nil'giccas is probably not an average Nonman but I'll take Cil-Aujas as the cipher. If the average Quya is even half as capable as Cleric...

I would guess they will be the main opposition, along with Wracu.
Who else can the Consult field?  (Able to go head to head with the schools)

I think this may be a tangent from topic but some thoughts:

There is an old Bakker quote that suggests that a few hundred Nonmen joined the Consult and the rest sequestered in Ishterebinth. A couple thousand all told, apparently.

Without the will of the No-God, the Quya and Ursranc or skin-spies had to literally chain thousands of Sranc together and beat them in the direction of the Ordeal. So I don't think that Sranc and Bashrag can hold the walls at Ishterebinth.

This leaves us with new creations of the Tekne and Wracu as was suggested. Skin-spies would certainly count against any number of regular human warriors. Then, there is Simas and some eerie indications that Soma is another anomaly with the ability to see the onta. If the Consult could field skin-spies with the abilities of the Few... But this is a conversation of autonomy: the skin-spies will defend a Fortress whereas Sranc or Bashrag will not without the will of the No-God.

I think Wutteat will help the Consult contest Dagliash but unless there is a coordinated effort to find the other Wracu, then sans the Black Heavens calling, they will do little to invoke the wrath of the world.

The Consult might adopt a strategy of defensive deception, feigning resistance with a small number of Quya and then trying to siege in Dagliash a la Caraskand but... still there is the problem of getting the Sranc and Bashrag to attack in force.

Questions, questions.

Good thread, Curethan.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 09:24:32 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2013, 03:07:18 pm »
So to add to fodder that perception is significantly different to Nonmen:

Quote from: WLW, p278
"Is it true," he inexplicably asks, "that being touched by another and touching oneself are quite distinct sensations for Men?"
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 02:13:33 am »
What is the Niom?

Wic

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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 02:46:48 am »
Serwa explains to Sorweel:

"The Nonmen have invoked Niom," she said. "An ancient ritual."

...

"The ancient Nonmen Kings found Men too mercurial," she explains, "too proud and headstrong to be trusted.  So in all their dealings they demanded hostages as a guarantee: a son, a daughter, and a captive enemy.  The two former as a surety against treachery.  The latter as a surety against deception."

Francis Buck

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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2013, 03:09:36 am »
Ah, now I remember. Thank you.

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 02:33:00 pm »
Thanks, Wic. Might I ask you if you can provide a page number or chapter notation? Some sort of way fans can reference quotes for themselves :).

In TUC Ch. 3 summary, Wilshire noted some description that leads to suggest that Serwa is very concerned that Sorweel appears far too "Team Anasurimbor" as they reach Ishterebinth. Clearly, she's spent more time with Sorweel directly than has Kayatus or Kellhus, who don't talk to him long enough to recognize the sharp dissonance in their ability to predict his next words. If we guessed right, Serwa even tortures Sorweel with Gnostic Torments because she doesn't understand why Sorweel's face beams love and rainbows but yet still makes his incendiary commentary (I do believe the Gods force words in a few instances).

Even in WLW, they make no effort to discuss how Sorweel, one of the apparent Believer-Kings, is going to behave like a "captive enemy." I mean, we know internally Sorweel is dead-set against the Anasurimbor but that's not what the Nonmen will read on his face...

Rough deal, anyhow - I mean, hey, Niom for the "greatest of Quya," sure. But Niom then the Ordeal still has to take Dagliash for the other half of their deal.
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Borric

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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2013, 05:51:53 pm »
Maybe the gods will show the Nomen his real face.